M&M Mix and Mega Resources

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Marshadow belongs in A in my opinion. It's about as strong as Hoopa given its stabs have higher base power, but belongs higher because of its much better speed tier. Maybe A+ or A- but I think A is best.
Also I think Klinklang should be added to the VR, to either B- or C because it is slightly worse than cobalion imo, but it can boost its speed and resist fake speed so maybe it is as good as cobalion? i dont know but it should be ranked
And add gyaradosite as a set to mew because that set is a good stallbreaker

Also I see that deoxys speed in the vr does not have pidgeotite listed which i definitely disagree with

may add more later
 

Funbot28

Breaking hearts since '09
is a Pre-Contributor
Ok so looks like the VR needs some updating

-> A+
Marsh is simply amazing rn with a multitude of stones (most notable ones being Lucarionite, Metagrossite, and even Lopunnite if you want to be cute), since its unresisted STAB combo extremely limits the amount of checks that can deal with it. The only"reliable" switchins to it that I have been able to utilize thus far is extremely fat stuff like Sablenite Mandibuzz and Zygarde-C, but Marsh can even break through the aforementioned threats if its able to net a +1 boost from Bulk Up (which is its best set imo).Its typing is also great in breaking through top tier threats such as Blissey, Arceus-Ghost, and Cresselia, something that can be invaluable for a majority of teams. The weakness to Aerilate does suck since it can often be forced out by threats like Genesect, Zygarde, and Entei, but besides that Marshadow can pose a threat to offensive and defensive teams alike thanks to its unparalleled offensive capabilities. Def A+ minimum, maybe even S down the line.

-> A
I know this is quite a jump but its really something that I believe deserves to happen. Yveltal has been finding itself on a majority of teams as of late thanks to it being a pretty great wallbreaker when given the appropriate opportunities to spam its Dark-type attacks. Barring Blissey, Mandibuzz, and Magearna, there are not many threats that appreciate switching into LO Dark Pulse. It also can further disrupt defensive answers through the use of Taunt (omitting Sablenite ofc) and has useful coverage options such as Heat Wave and U-Turn which lets it circumvent the aforementioned checks to it. Choice Scarf sets have also started being used on offensive teams as a means to check threats such as Arceus-Ghost, Scarf Lunala, and the newly introduced Marshadow (cause lets face it, Marsh can 6-0 otherwise if no Espeed support). This really needs to rise up even to A-.

-> A-
The introduction to Pidgeotite definitely propelled Tapu Koko's viability quite a bit imo since it can now fire off Electric Terrain boosted Thunders which can really dent most things not named Primal Groudon and Blissey. Although it can be checked by probably the best mon in the metagame atm, Tapu Koko can still pull its weight mainly thanks to its blistering Speed and its capability to capitalize on many common defensive cores atm such as ZapBliss or MagBuzz through the use of Nature's Madness + its STAB attacks. Koko can also provide so much momentum to the majority of teams since it often can force out many switchins, meaning it can usually just pivot freely most of the time and then proceed to wallbreak once it's checks are weakened by its teammates.

-> B-/B
So Fardin introduced me to Audinite Mantine and I must say its a really nice mon to check so many common threats such as Weavile, Golisopod, and Terrakion. Its amazing defensive typing + great support options in Defog and Haze allows it to be a surprisingly splashable option for more defensive teams. It does get forced out by other common threats such as Primal Groudon and Kartana of course, but I still agree that it provides enough defensive merit to at least be ranked in the B rankings.

-> B-
While its no means one of the best mons, SD Smack Down sets can easily break through its counters in Zapdos and Mandibuzz while generally lacking much counterplay through defensive measures. Also Lopunnite sets while less viable are also nice in checking Blissey as well.

-> C/C-
Requires too much support + gets beaten by most common threats when support is given.

Here are some stones/items I would also like to be seen added:
+ Lopunnite
+ Lucarionite
+ Pidgeotite
+ Lucarionite
+ Cameruptite
+ Cameruptite
+ Choice Scarf
+ Lopunnite
+ Pidgeotite


That is all
 
Last edited:

OM room

You lost the game
I would like to nominate Arceus-Steel for C / B- rank. Personally, I find the fact that Arceus-Steel ISN'T ranked a travesty. Arceus is an extremely versatile pokemon that can so so much damage depending on the set, whether it be Swords Dance Steelium Z, Bulky Support or Calm Mind Judgment Sweeper, to name a few.
Admittedly, Arceus-Steel is offensively and defensively countered easily, and requires a fair amount of support to pull off; which is why I would not recommend it going much higher.
 
Hello!
It's my first time visiting this thread and to my surprise I find it was last updated on May 13th, which makes it 62 days without an update, and with the recent impact made by the release of Marshadow on the meta this thread needs a bit of an update and since I've never made an relevant post I thought I'd try it out. I will be making 3 posts, this first one for Pokemon Viability Rankings, a second for Mega Stones Viability Rankings and a third one addressing Role Compendium.
So let's go ahead and give it a little bit of love and a nice, and deserving, overhaul update, shall we?

Disclaimer: Every change below is simply a suggestion based off my "limited :P" experience with the metagame and the feedback of several other relevant players which means you don't have to agree with me but if you do have any issue with these rankings let me know, english isn't my first language so you'll have to excuse me if I'm not clear, but I will be glad to answer any questions below or make some changes to the list if I find an argument convincing.


First off, Pokemon Viability Rankings:

The Basic Premises: Anything that restricts opposing teambuilding is considered at least A Tier (includes A-, A and A+) (e.g Primal Groudon has to be prepared for). Anything that only has a niche for certain threats that aren't A Rank (Rank != Tier) or above or are overshadowed are considered C or Unranked. If any pokemon is great against only one kind of playstyle it is considered B Rank or below.

Let's start by the root of the problem, name is Marshadow:
Unranked to A+
While its power is comparable to that of Groudon-Primal, it is not nearly as versatile since Pdon can run several different sets to fit to each team while being a powerhouse, but Marshadow little more can offer than offensive presence. But within its job, it's probably the most threatening pokemon in the meta since it needs nothing else but STAB to hit everything neutrally allied with great sweeping stats, priority, pursuit trapping, bulk up setup and stones such as Metagrossite and Lucarionite, Marshadow becomes able to dismantle teams that aren't ready for it forcing opponents to sacrifice a pokemon or run a defensive check. Therefore, Marshadow is worthy of A+.

Next up, Arceus-Fairy:
Unranked to A
With the addition of Marshadow to the meta, a lot of pokemon that can switch-in into it go up in viability, one of the best ones being Arceus-Fairy. What makes it have an edge over other defensive Arceus such as Arceus-Ground is the fact that it resists Marshadows most powerful move, Close Combat, forcing it to use 90 BP move over the 120 BP cutting its damage output slightly, which makes it a 3HKO all while being able to KO back with judgement. Allied with everything Arceus can offer (Setup CM, Hazard Removal, Recovery, Earth Power to fight Pdon, Will-O-Wisp, Toxic, etc...) and having great defensive synergy with the best Sp.Def wall in the meta, makes it worthy of Rank A- or even A.

Skarmory:
B+ to A-
Alongside Arceus-Fairy, Skarmory only gets 3HKO'ed by Marshadow's threatening Close Combat, which rises its viablility, together with great hazard control, Whirlwind to remove threatening setup and the ability to revenge OHKO Marshadow back makes it one of the best options in the meta to deal with it and adding great utility to the team.

252 Atk Adaptability Marshadow (Lucarionite) Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory (Venusaurite): 144-170 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

0 Atk Skarmory (Venusaurite) Brave Bird vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Marshadow (Lucarionite): 390-458 (121.1 - 142.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Landorus-Therian form:
C to B+
More of the same, except this time it can actually attack. And setup rocks. And setup with Double Dance. And explode.

Lucarionite vs Salamencite
252 Atk Adaptability Marshadow (Lucarionite) Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian (Salamencite): 114-135 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Aerilate Landorus-Therian (Salamencite) Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Marshadow (Lucarionite): 510-600 (158.3 - 186.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Landorus-Therian (Salamencite) Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey (Sablenite): 1203-1416 (168.4 - 198.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Landorus-Therian (Salamencite) Explosion vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia (Sablenite): 600-706 (135.4 - 159.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Landorus-Therian (Salamencite) Explosion vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Zapdos (Sablenite): 377-444 (98.1 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO


Genesect:
A- to A+
I truly believe Genesect has the same level of threat as Zygarde, since they are both great abusers of Pinsirite/Glalite but it has an edge because of better setup (Shift Gear > Dragon Dance), U-turn (Which can be used for scouting, pivot'ing, or just switch in something better when the matchup isn't great), Special Coverage (Techno Blast), Download (Zygarde's basic ability is useless), Flinch hax (Iron Head, not as relevant but sometimes that can be your only wincon), and a nuke (Explosion, numbers are similar to Lando-T above) which forces teams to run a check for it to be able to consistently beat it. Plus, it can revenge kill Marshadow which is an added bonus.

Tapu Koko:
B+ to B-/B
Tapu Koko with 160 Sp. Atk and 150 Spe (Pidgeotite) under Electric Terrain is terrifying, especially with Thunder (120 BP + 30% chance of paralysis) being its goto STAB move, while having Dazzling Gleam for dark dungeons and big dragons and decent coverage with Grass Knot (Which can't 2HKO Pdon... right Chazm?). However, it is easily walled by 2 very prominent pokemon in the meta in Groudon-Primal and Blissey, who really only have to stall (if not KO) Koko for 5 turns before Electric Terrain fades and it loses 1/3 of its power. Xurkitree however can setup with Tail Glow, has the same coverage as special Tapu Koko and isn't punished by switching out, while their speed tiers are quite different, the difference in power gives Xurk an edge on a meta dominated by Balance and BO. Other Koko variants (Lucarionite, Pinsirite and Gardevoirite) have niches but are clearly inferior to Pidgeotite (This does not mean they are unviable).

252 SpA Tapu Koko (Pidgeotite) Zap Cannon under Electric Terrain vs. 252 HP / 156 SpD Blissey (Sablenite): 183-216 (25.6 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko (Pidgeotite) Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Groudon-Primal: 167-197 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


Togekiss:
C to B+
I'm getting exhausted of writing so much reasoning so I'll show you some calcs. All you have to know is that it is best played Red Orb Max Defense, walls a lot of physical threats has great synergy with Blissey and some with Zapdos/Mandibuzz and it packs a punch with Flamethrower. Also gets NP, Morning Sun, Heal Bell and Defog (You have to run Roost for this though). Also Dazzling Gleam for dragons

252 Atk Tough Claws Kartana (Metagrossite) Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss (Red Orb): 139-165 (37.1 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Refrigerate Weavile (Glalitite) Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss (Red Orb): 81-96 (21.6 - 25.6%) -- 0.7% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Golisopod (Blue Orb) Leech Life vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss (Red Orb): 28-34 (7.4 - 9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Zygarde (Pinsirite) Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss (Red Orb): 138-164 (36.8 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Genesect (Pinsirite) Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss (Red Orb): 121-144 (32.3 - 38.5%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Togekiss (Red Orb) Flamethrower under Hard Sunshine vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 237-279 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Excadrill:
Unranked to B
One of the best Hazard Control pokemon in the metagame. Can setup Stealth Rock reliably using its basic ability without having to sacrifice a stone for it and Toxic opposing Sablenite users. Can also Rapid Spin to clear only its side of the field. Plus it can be ran with Pinsirite or Metagrossite (Drill Run makes contact and deals surprising ammount of damage).

+2 252 Atk Tough Claws Excadrill Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 363-427 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Mantine:
Unranked to C/B-
Pretty decent bulk with 85/110/180 (As Audinite). Decent typing and a pretty good movepool as well with some nice utility in burns (Scald) to cover its lowish Defense, Recovery (Roost / Rest-talk), hazard removal (Defog), setup removal (Haze), trapping capabilities (Whirlpool), and other niche useful moves such as Toxic, Icy Wind and Tailwind.

Tapu Fini:
(Will do a separate post on this since I have a lot to cover and can't do it here or even probably today)

Mandibuzz:
Unranked to B+
Very similar do Skarmory, can switch into Marshadow and deal a lot of damage with Foul Play. Has reliable Recovery, Hazard Removal in Defog and can serve as a Pivot with U-Turn. Was already really nice as a pivot before, and with Marshadow on the meta its viability rises drastically.

Rayquaza:
Unranked to B
Most of what I wanted to say or calc has already been discussed by Dramps and Chazm. Soo yeah, it can OHKO Special Defensive Primal Groudon with 116 Sp.Atk and Life Orb, and can carry big guns as in V-Create and Draco Meteor alongside a nice STAB Dragon Ascent that can break a lot of defensive cores.

Kyogre:
B- to C
I'll approach Kyogre the same way I approach any other pokemon on this list and will treat all its variants into one single pokemon. Scarf Kyogre is fast and powerful, however can be easily shut down by anything running any kind of weather (especially Red Orbs). Primal Kyogre is very strong and somewhat bulky special defensive wise but, similar to its other variant, it is weak to anything running Red Orb and, according to June's stats, Sun is run on 65.85% of the teams in the best third of the ladder, 59.11% simply Sun and 6.74% as Multiweather, hindering the capabilities of Kyogre.

Latios:
C to Unranked
With so many pokemon coming into this list, some will have to depart and our first goodbye is to Latios. While anyone can recognize its offensive potential with Absolite or Pidgeotite (or even Cameruptite), it is 86th in usage (less used than Deo-D or Yanmega) and simply overshadowed by the likes of Tapu Lele and Mew.

Nihilego:
C to Unranked
Completely overshadowed by pokemon such as Shuckle, Toxapex, Excadrill or even Crobat. I see no reason to use Nihilego over any of those mentioned.


And that concludes my post on Pokemon VR, next up will be one on Fini, that I have a lot to talk about, and 2 more on Stones VR and Role Compendium (love this word). Feel free to ask me any question you might have and I'll do my best to answer it.
Cheers!
 
Last edited:
So I think this may cause some controversy but I would like to nominate Golisopod to fall... quite a bit.

The main two roles Golisopod serves are as a switch-in to Primal Groudon and as a wallbreaker. I don't think it does either of these roles very well. As a Pdon switch-in it gets predicted by any good opponent and either pdon sets rocks or hits it with Stone Edge. Yes Pdon then has to switch out or be killed by Aqua Jet, but it can then switch right back in and all Goli can do is toxic it on the switch. Against the only other common Red Orb mon, Raikou, Golisopod gets murdered if it tries to switch in (Togekiss isn't common or that good imo, Volcarona isn't common).

As a wallbreaker Golisopod... isn't hard to switch into honestly. It allows strong offensive mons to switch in, such as Pinsirite Zygarde, Rayquaza, Pdon, any other red orb mon, and Kartana. The most these mons have to fear is a Toxic, which hardly makes for a good "nuke". There are also plenty of defensive mons which can wall it, especially if it lacks Swords Dance (which it should, Swords Dance just doesn't fit on its best sets imo). It's also atrociously slow leaving it to rely on Aqua Jet way more than it wants to.

Having said all that Golisopod isn't awful. Forcing out Pdon is always good on teams that can take proper advantage of this (eg not letting it in for free easily again). It also serves as a nice Weavile counter and a decent revenge killer, although water isn't great as a type for revenge killing i m o.

And finally in all its roles Golisopod finds itself worn down easily. By rocks, by switching into what its supposed to check, and... yeh that's mostly it. It doesn't have the survivability to be reliable in longer or even medium length matches. And no, Leech Life is not good enough healing for it.

I'd like to nominate Golisopod for B+. I could personally see it lower, but not much lower. Please comment like subscribe tell me if I'm insane.

Ciao

Now to read Mark ks essay wow

EDIT: Have read, agree with basically everything on there. Fairyceus is really good rn. It's one of the best walls for some of the most threatening mons in the tier, most notably Marshadow but also Terrakion. I could almost see it in A+ but A is probably better.

Fardin tells me that Golisopods main purpose isnt to switch into Pdon but to be a wallbreaker with nice bulk... I feel like I addressed its failings as a wallbreaker already (them water resistant mons don't get broken) but I will admit its bulk is pretty nice. But again, chip damage happens incredibly easily on Golisopod.
 
Last edited:

OM room

You lost the game
I completely agree with a drop on Golisopod. The metagame has fully adjusted to it, and I really don't see it as that threatening of a pokemon anymore, especially with Zygarde just using it as setup fodder.

Following a similar vein I'd also like nominate Weavile to drop to A-/B+ Weavile is still a solid pokemon in the metagame, and is a great overall cleaner. However the rise of pokemon such as Skarmory, Marshadow and Magearna has led to a drop in Viability for the pokemon, with most teams having a general answer for it, requiring more support from the team. It simply isn't as good as it once was, and It should drop to follow that.
(Totally forgot to do this in my earlier post)
 
(Which can't 2HKO Pdon... right Chazm?)
pls
Koko also doesn't get Zap Cannon - it uses Thunder as its main STAB move, which makes it justified to have a B ranking imo

however, I have to agree with basically everything that has been updated here. Whilst I first debated moving Marshadow to S rank, I realize that its flaws that stop it from becoming S rank are based on its predictability and lack of ability to run other sets with defensive capabilities. However, having Toxic on Marshadow does allow it to blow past Arceus-Fairy, and Stealth Rocks allow it to also blow past Skarmory and Mandibuzz, which make it debatable. There are a few updates that I'd like to make, however:

Arceus-Ghost from A- to B-

With the rise of Marshadow and the decline of mons that Arceus-Ghost checks, such as Terrakion, Arceus-Ghost finds itself in a spot where its defensive set no longer has the niche it used to that was a boon for many teams weak to Terrakion. Its physical set also has major problems with Marshadow - it cannot boost up safely without risking a countersweep, and so, Marshadow must be eliminated from the opposing side to even attempt to sweep. As well as this, Mandibuzz, a pivot that has recently gained popularity, also counters Arceus-Ghost with Foul Play.

Ho-oh from Unranked to B

Despite having major problems with physical attackers in the meta and common pivots such as Zapdos and potentially Mandibuzz, Ho-oh clearly proves itself to be a worthy physical attacker and special tank in the metagame. This, combined with its Dream World ability, Regenerator, allows Ho-oh the ability to become a viable Choice Band attacker. Its signature move, Sacred Fire, also limits the ability of physical attackers to be able to switch in, due to its 50% burn chance. It also manages to act as a Xerneas check. However, there are a few gaping problems, mainly its 4x Rock weakness, resulting in teams that use Ho-oh to opt for double defog options to support it. Because of this, I do not think it should be any higher than B rank.

Calcs:
208+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 153-180 (39.9 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Sablenite)
208+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 307-363 (42.9 - 50.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO (Sablenite, opting to run more Atk can help break Blissey, but at the cost of a roll on Xerneas' Thunder)
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 85-101 (20.4 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ SpA Magearna Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 124-148 (29.8 - 35.6%) -- 29.2% chance to 3HKO
208+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 238-282 (65.3 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Venusaurite)
208+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 338-398 (92.8 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (Sablenite)
208+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 207-244 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
208+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 165-195 (39.1 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 181-214 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk burned Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 90-107 (21.6 - 25.7%) -- 1.8% chance to 4HKO

Arceus from Unranked to B-/C

I'm surprised the Espeed spammer himself isn't on this list. Despite having incredible problems with Marshadow in the current metagame, Arceus shines through as a late game priority cleaner. However, the meta has been extremely unkind to it, with the introduction of both Mandibuzz and Marshadow plaguing it to no end. Once those two threats are gone however, Arceus can easily sweep unprepared teams with a Life Orb Extreme Speed, able to outspeed the likes of other -atespammers, such as Genesect and Zygarde.

Note: It is heavily advised that you run Stone Edge over Ice Beam on Offensive Extreme Killer Arceus - it is the most optimal move for it in the current meta in its fourth slot.

Calcs:
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 223-264 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 156-185 (55.1 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Base form/Glalitite)
252+ Atk Aerilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 148-175 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 455-536 (127 - 149.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Pinsirite)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 273-321 (76.2 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Pinsirite)
+2 0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 252-297 (66.1 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Stone Edge vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 281-333 (66.7 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 346-408 (95.3 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (Sablenite)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 268-316 (83.4 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Metagrossite) - even at +2, it fails to OHKO, just highlighting how problematic Marshadow is for Arceus

Kartana from A+ to A/A-

I had always thought Kartana didn't deserve its A+ rank due to Zapdos running amok in the meta, but now, with Marshadow acting as a check to it, Kartana has become a Pokemon that has much more difficulty setting up and sweeping teams, unlike it used to. However, it still deserves its spot on many teams due to its already sky-high Attack stat, making it break through walls even without an Attack boost, 2HKOing most variants of Groudon-Primal.

Other, minor nominations:
Salamence from Unranked to B-/C
Keldeo
from B+ to B
Hoopa-Unbound
from A- to B+
Shedinja
from B to C

I also have to agree with dropping Golisopod down to B+, possibly even B - it simply doesn't do its job of checking Pdon well enough; I find it incredibly overrated for that reason.

tl;dr Marshadow has changed a considerable amount in the metagame, I believe moreso than any Pokemon currently at A+ and therefore could be considered for S rank. However, A+ is fine by me.
 
Last edited:
tl;dr Marshadow has changed a considerable amount in the metagame, I believe moreso than any Pokemon currently at A+ and therefore could be considered for S rank. However, A+ is fine by me.
Well sure that's noticeable because Pdon has always been here, if you were to remove it from the meta it would have a way bigger impact than the introduction of Marshadow.

Aside from that, I agree with your nomminations as well with the exception of salamence that I can't seem to understand, would you care to explain why it deserves B rank?
 
Good point. Groudon-Primal basically changed the entire meta of Ubers when it was first added, so I see your logic there in not ranking it S. I was fine with that. Hence I find it in a grey area - it's changed things quite a bit more than the rest of the mons in A+, but it hasn't changed enough to move to S.

On the reply of Salamence's nomination - I was thinking of ranking it B-, however, on closer inspection, that does seem to be the correct ranking for that, since it falls short of a few key KOs without Pinsirite, which doesn't have the bulk to deal with some mons. I'll change its nomination, potentially even down to C, but I still believe that it deserves a ranking.

Salamence, with its Mega Stone, oddly enough happens to be a great wallbreaker with Aerilate Double-Edge. Unfortunately, Skarmory walls it, which is something that it must deal with. As well as that, it must deal with Glalitite Espeed, which often times ruins a sweep, so it won't often get to click DD in a match. However, with Intimidate + the mega stone defense, Salamence becomes incredibly bulky on the physical side, allowing it to check some meta-defining threats, as well as be one of the few Pokemon to have the prestige to 2HKO Pdon.

Calcs:
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Salamence-Mega: 105-124 (30.7 - 36.2%) -- 54.7% chance to 3HKO (Metagrossite) (A warning - some Marshadow run Ice Punch, which OHKOs Salamence-Mega, even at -1)
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 276-325 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Sablenite)
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 186-219 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Adaptability Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Salamence-Mega: 276-328 (80.7 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Lucarionite)
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 262-309 (81.1 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 178-210 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - As you can see, Salamencite falls short.
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 196-232 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO (Pinsirite) pulls through, however.
 
Good point. Groudon-Primal basically changed the entire meta of Ubers when it was first added, so I see your logic there in not ranking it S. I was fine with that. Hence I find it in a grey area - it's changed things quite a bit more than the rest of the mons in A+, but it hasn't changed enough to move to S.

On the reply of Salamence's nomination - I was thinking of ranking it B-, however, on closer inspection, that does seem to be the correct ranking for that, since it falls short of a few key KOs without Pinsirite, which doesn't have the bulk to deal with some mons. I'll change its nomination, potentially even down to C, but I still believe that it deserves a ranking.

Salamence, with its Mega Stone, oddly enough happens to be a great wallbreaker with Aerilate Double-Edge. Unfortunately, Skarmory walls it, which is something that it must deal with. As well as that, it must deal with Glalitite Espeed, which often times ruins a sweep, so it won't often get to click DD in a match. However, with Intimidate + the mega stone defense, Salamence becomes incredibly bulky on the physical side, allowing it to check some meta-defining threats, as well as be one of the few Pokemon to have the prestige to 2HKO Pdon.

Calcs:
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Salamence-Mega: 105-124 (30.7 - 36.2%) -- 54.7% chance to 3HKO (Metagrossite) (A warning - some Marshadow run Ice Punch, which OHKOs Salamence-Mega, even at -1)
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 276-325 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Sablenite)
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 186-219 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Adaptability Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Salamence-Mega: 276-328 (80.7 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Lucarionite)
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 262-309 (81.1 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 178-210 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - As you can see, Salamencite falls short.
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 196-232 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO (Pinsirite) pulls through, however.
I think if we considered creating an S- category Marshadow would fit well there. Not good enough for full S but too good for A+ yeah?
 
On the reply of Salamence's nomination - I was thinking of ranking it B-, however, on closer inspection, that does seem to be the correct ranking for that, since it falls short of a few key KOs without Pinsirite, which doesn't have the bulk to deal with some mons. I'll change its nomination, potentially even down to C, but I still believe that it deserves a ranking.

Salamence, with its Mega Stone, oddly enough happens to be a great wallbreaker with Aerilate Double-Edge. Unfortunately, Skarmory walls it, which is something that it must deal with. As well as that, it must deal with Glalitite Espeed, which often times ruins a sweep, so it won't often get to click DD in a match. However, with Intimidate + the mega stone defense, Salamence becomes incredibly bulky on the physical side, allowing it to check some meta-defining threats, as well as be one of the few Pokemon to have the prestige to 2HKO Pdon.

Calcs:
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Salamence-Mega: 105-124 (30.7 - 36.2%) -- 54.7% chance to 3HKO (Metagrossite) (A warning - some Marshadow run Ice Punch, which OHKOs Salamence-Mega, even at -1)
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 276-325 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Sablenite)
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 186-219 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Adaptability Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Salamence-Mega: 276-328 (80.7 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Lucarionite)
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 262-309 (81.1 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 178-210 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - As you can see, Salamencite falls short.
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 196-232 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO (Pinsirite) pulls through, however.
I just don't see how salamence would be used over Lando-T with salamencite. Also carries intimidate for offensive switch ins, has better typing and better coverage with SEdge that can 2hko Skarmory at +2 for example. If its objective is to break walls then Swords Dance is way better than Dragon Dance because a +2 Return is better than a +1 DEdge, and if a wall is far beyond fat, or you just can't afford to setup, it can explode for massive damage and bring down any wall. You can find more on why Lando is better than Mence in my post.

Pinsirite Metagross is similarly strong, albeit a bit different but imo still better than Mega Mence
 

Funbot28

Breaking hearts since '09
is a Pre-Contributor
I don't see the point of S+, both a pdon and Marsh are both metagame defining enough to warrant a shared S rank equally.

Also agree with most noms made, although Koko is still being underrated.
 
I just don't see how salamence would be used over Lando-T with salamencite. Also carries intimidate for offensive switch ins, has better typing and better coverage with SEdge that can 2hko Skarmory at +2 for example. If its objective is to break walls then Swords Dance is way better than Dragon Dance because a +2 Return is better than a +1 DEdge, and if a wall is far beyond fat, or you just can't afford to setup, it can explode for massive damage and bring down any wall. You can find more on why Lando is better than Mence in my post.

Pinsirite Metagross is similarly strong, albeit a bit different but imo still better than Mega Mence
I can agree with this. Alright, debate settled, I guess it doesn't really have that much of a niche since Lando-T can do the same thing but better
 

Chloe

;w;
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
Because this is extremely outdated and it's absolutely paramount to have this resource updated, I've made the following changes based on nominations.
Code:
Arceus (Unr to B-)
Arceus-Fairy (Unr to A)
Arceus-Ghost (A- to B-)
Arceus-Steel (Unr to B-)
Excadrill (Unr to B)
Genesect (A- to A)
Ho-Oh (Unr to B)
Hoopa-Unbound (A- to B+)
Kartana (A+ to A)
Keldeo (B+ to B)
Kyogre (B- to C)
Landorus-Therian (C to B)
Latios (C to Unr)
Mandibuzz (Unr to B+)
Mantine (Unr to B-)
Marshadow (Unr to A+)
Rayquaza (Unr to B)
Salamence (Unr to C)
Shedinja (B to C)
Skarmory (B+ to A-)
Terrakion (A- to A)
Togekiss (C to B+)
Yveltal (B+ to A)
I have left out a few nominations:
Weavile (A+ to A-/B+): This is quite a substantial drop for an A+ Pokémon, I'd like to see more discussion on this before proceeding with it.
Golisopod (A+ to B+): While I disagree with this, with more discussion I can see it happening. It's not right for an A+ to move so abruptly, especially for a suggested drop this large. More discussion needs to occur.
Nihilego (C to Unr): While this may initially seem like bias, as I am the one who pioneered Sablenite Nihilego, I feel like due to the stone listed on the VR, it may have caused some confusion. It is not solely a Toxic Spikes setter but it walls Zapdos and Xerneas, while acting as a soft check to common threats Yveltal and Arceus-Fairy. It's not just another hazard setter. If you all still agree it should fall however, I will proceed with it.
Tapu Koko (B+ to A-/B/B-): It was nommed for both a rise and a fall, I'd definitely like to see more discussion on this.

Additionally, we will aim to update all the other resources in this thread; however, major adjustments to the content of resources (not including the VR) will probably be delayed until after the conclusion of OMPL. I encourage you all to continue discussing nominations.
 
Pdon is no where near good enough to be S+. Personally, I wouldn't even say it's S at all
I'm pretty sure Viability Rankings are relative, not absolute, which means that a pokemon's viability is rated on how well it does relative to the others, which makes Pdon the best of the meta, whether it is S, S+, S- or A, as long as it is at the top, it deserves to be there. However, (and I think this is what you mean) the gap between Pdon and the rest of the A+ threats would be too big compared to reality. If there really is a need to put Marshadow between the A+ threats and Pdon, which imo there isn't, you'd place it S-
 
I'm back with the new installment of "wtf Mark's actually contributing" to update the Stone Viability Rankings!

So, here's a list of all the stones added after the last update:
Abomasite
Audinite
Bannettite
Cameruptite
Gardevoirite
Heracronite
Houndoominite
Lopunnite
Manectite
Sceptilite
Steelixite
Swampertite
Tyranitarite

Quikbanned:
Blazikenite and Medichamite


For clarity (and time-saving) purposes I will simply suggest a ranking to the stones, let me know if there is anything too outrageous and I will take the time to explain it.
Let's get started with the New Stones:

Abomasite: C
Users: Ninetales-Alola, Mew

Audinite: C/B
Users: Mantine, Audino, Heatran, Xurkitree

Bannettite: B
Users: Breloom, Marshadow, Mimikyu

Cameruptite: A
Users: Magearna, Volcarona, Reuniclus, Xurkitree, Hoopa-U

Gardevoirite: C
Users: Tapu Koko, Sylveon

Heracronite: C
Users: Cloyster, Heracross, Any other Skill Link abuser

Houndoominite: C
Users: Ninetales, Torkoal

Lopunnite: B
Users: Terrakion, Landorus-T, Arcanine, Kartana

Manectite: B
Users: Zapdos, Tapu Fini, Mandibuzz, Mew

Sceptilite: C
Users: Manaphy, Heliolisk

Steelixite: C
Users: Tyranitar, Gigalith, Hippodown

Swampertite: C
Users: Politoed, Pelliper

Tyranitarite: D
Users: (I really couldn't come up with anything)



Now onto the changes of the Already Released Stones:

Mewtwonite X: B to C
In my opinion, this stone shouln't even have been B rank in the first place. It gives 80 Atk, but no speed to make any kind of use to it, a completely useless ability and still makes your second type Fighting which makes high tier Speed pokemon (that could actually make some use of the attack stat) unviable. Even if it was worthy of B rank before, the addition of Lopunnite now completely removes MMX from the meta.


That should be everything covered regarding stones, only one more to go on Role Compendium.
Also, is this gonna be a thing? It got me hype af!

Imagine Zapdos running this... :O
 
Last edited:
I'm back with the new installment of "wtf Mark's actually contributing" to update the Stone Viability Rankings!

So, here's a list of all the stones added after the last update:
Abomasite
Audinite
Bannettite
Cameruptite
Gardevoirite
Heracronite
Houndoominite
Lopunnite
Manectite
Sceptilite
Steelixite
Swampertite
Tyranitarite

Quikbanned:
Blazikenite and Medichamite


For clarity (and time-saving) purposes I will simply suggest a ranking to the stones, let me know if there is anything too outrageous and I will take the time to explain it.
Let's get started with the New Stones:

Abomasite: C
Users: Ninetales-Alola

Audinite: C/B
Users: Mantine, Audino, Heatran, Xurkitree

Bannettite: B
Users: Breloom, Marshadow, Mimikyu
Cameruptite: A
Users: Magearna, Volcarona, Reuniclus, Xurkitree, Hoopa-U

Gardevoirite: C
Users: Tapu Koko, Sylveon

Heracronite: C
Users: Cloyster, Heracross, Any other Skill Link abuser

Houndoominite: C
Users: Ninetales, Torkoal
Lopunnite: B
Users: Terrakion, Landorus-T, Arcanine, Kartana
Manectite: B
Users: Zapdos, Tapu Fini, Mandibuzz, Mew

Sceptilite: C
Users: Manaphy, Heliolisk

Steelixite: C
Users: Tyranitar, Gigalith, Hippodown

Swampertite: C
Users: Politoed, Pelliper

Tyranitarite: D
Users: (I really couldn't come up with anything)



Now onto the changes of the Already Released Stones:

Mewtwonite X: B to C
In my opinion, this stone shouln't even have been B rank in the first place. It gives 80 Atk, but no speed to make any kind of use to it, a completely useless ability and still makes your second type Fighting which makes high tier Speed pokemon (that could actually make some use of the attack stat) unviable. Even if it was worthy of B rank before, the addition of Lopunnite now completely removes MMX from the meta.


That should be everything covered regarding stones, only one more to go on Role Compendium.
Also, is this gonna be a thing? It got me hype af!

Imagine Zapdos running this... :O
Zapdos doesn't get dragon ascent. Only Smeargle can do that.
 
I'm back with the new installment of "wtf Mark's actually contributing" to update the Stone Viability Rankings!

So, here's a list of all the stones added after the last update:
Abomasite
Audinite
Bannettite
Cameruptite
Gardevoirite
Heracronite
Houndoominite
Lopunnite
Manectite
Sceptilite
Steelixite
Swampertite
Tyranitarite

Quikbanned:
Blazikenite and Medichamite


For clarity (and time-saving) purposes I will simply suggest a ranking to the stones, let me know if there is anything too outrageous and I will take the time to explain it.
Let's get started with the New Stones:

Abomasite: C
Users: Ninetales-Alola

Audinite: C/B
Users: Mantine, Audino, Heatran, Xurkitree

Bannettite: B
Users: Breloom, Marshadow, Mimikyu
Cameruptite: A
Users: Magearna, Volcarona, Reuniclus, Xurkitree, Hoopa-U

Gardevoirite: C
Users: Tapu Koko, Sylveon

Heracronite: C
Users: Cloyster, Heracross, Any other Skill Link abuser

Houndoominite: C
Users: Ninetales, Torkoal
Lopunnite: B
Users: Terrakion, Landorus-T, Arcanine, Kartana
Manectite: B
Users: Zapdos, Tapu Fini, Mandibuzz, Mew

Sceptilite: C
Users: Manaphy, Heliolisk

Steelixite: C
Users: Tyranitar, Gigalith, Hippodown

Swampertite: C
Users: Politoed, Pelliper

Tyranitarite: D
Users: (I really couldn't come up with anything)



Now onto the changes of the Already Released Stones:

Mewtwonite X: B to C
In my opinion, this stone shouln't even have been B rank in the first place. It gives 80 Atk, but no speed to make any kind of use to it, a completely useless ability and still makes your second type Fighting which makes high tier Speed pokemon (that could actually make some use of the attack stat) unviable. Even if it was worthy of B rank before, the addition of Lopunnite now completely removes MMX from the meta.


That should be everything covered regarding stones, only one more to go on Role Compendium.
Also, is this gonna be a thing? It got me hype af!

Imagine Zapdos running this... :O
Wouldn't Mew be a better Abomasite(Aurora Veil) user?
 
Tyranitarite: D
Users: (I really couldn't come up with anything)
While the Tyranitarite will probably never be A rank, i believe it's a very good stone for Rock-typed mons. (but not A-rank material, obviously)
The sandstorm raises the SpD of Rock-typed mons by x1.5, which is pretty good, and would be definitely better if the sandstorm couldn't be removed so easily by any Red Orb or Blue Orb mon.
Alas, it is. And the only truly defensive rock-type mon is Arceus-Rock, which can't use the Tyranitarite. (anyway it wouldn't help much in it's role of -atespeed check)
Another problem : the lack of Recovery moves for Rock types. Aerodactyl and Archeops gets Roost, Corsola, Magcargo and Cradily gets Recover but... only Cradily can use Recover decently. Anyway having a recovery move doesn't matter much for them since it's impossible to "just click Recover" due to the sandstorm dissapearing after 5 turns.

Now that i have talked about the flaws of this stone, i can talk about what's good with it...
Well, good bulk for Rock types. Nothing more. And that's actually impressive.

252 SpA Pidgeotite Tapu Koko Thunder vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Tyranitarite Nihilego under Electric Terrain and sandstorm: 114-135 (27 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

You may wonder what's the point of this calc...
Well, simply showing how good it is for a Rock-typed specially defensive mon.

I can't bring replays right now but i will do it later.
But for the time being, i suggest (not nominate, juste suggest) Tyranitarite to be C rank.

That being said, i think Tyranitarite should be added to Nihilego in the viability rankings for giving better special bulk than Sablenite. (it is immune to Toxic so Magic Bounce's only utility would be to bounce back Stealth Rocks and stuff... alas, the most common Stealth Rock setters are either using Gyaradosite, either OHKOing Nihilego)
 
Last edited:
Because this is extremely outdated and it's absolutely paramount to have this resource updated, I've made the following changes based on nominations.
Code:
Arceus (Unr to B-)
Arceus-Fairy (Unr to A)
Arceus-Ghost (A- to B-)
Arceus-Steel (Unr to B-)
Excadrill (Unr to B)
Genesect (A- to A+)
Ho-Oh (Unr to B)
Hoopa-Unbound (A- to B+)
Kartana (A+ to A)
Keldeo (B+ to B)
Kyogre (B- to C)
Landorus-Therian (C to B)
Latios (C to Unr)
Mandibuzz (Unr to B+)
Mantine (Unr to B-)
Marshadow (Unr to A+)
Rayquaza (Unr to B)
Salamence (Unr to C)
Shedinja (B to C)
Skarmory (B+ to A-)
Terrakion (A- to A)
Togekiss (C to B+)
Yveltal (B+ to A)
I have left out a few nominations:
Weavile (A+ to A-/B+): This is quite a substantial drop for an A+ Pokémon, I'd like to see more discussion on this before proceeding with it.
Golisopod (A+ to B+): While I disagree with this, with more discussion I can see it happening. It's not right for an A+ to move so abruptly, especially for a suggested drop this large. More discussion needs to occur.
Nihilego (C to Unr): While this may initially seem like bias, as I am the one who pioneered Sablenite Nihilego, I feel like due to the stone listed on the VR, it may have caused some confusion. It is not solely a Toxic Spikes setter but it walls Zapdos and Xerneas, while acting as a soft check to common threats Yveltal and Arceus-Fairy. It's not just another hazard setter. If you all still agree it should fall however, I will proceed with it.
Tapu Koko (B+ to A-/B/B-): It was nommed for both a rise and a fall, I'd definitely like to see more discussion on this.

Additionally, we will aim to update all the other resources in this thread; however, major adjustments to the content of resources (not including the VR) will probably be delayed until after the conclusion of OMPL. I encourage you all to continue discussing nominations.
There are a couple of changes that I disagree with, so Ill respond to them here:
Genesect:
A- to A+
I truly believe Genesect has the same level of threat as Zygarde, since they are both great abusers of Pinsirite/Glalite but it has an edge because of better setup (Shift Gear > Dragon Dance), U-turn (Which can be used for scouting, pivot'ing, or just switch in something better when the matchup isn't great), Special Coverage (Techno Blast), Download (Zygarde's basic ability is useless), Flinch hax (Iron Head, not as relevant but sometimes that can be your only wincon), and a nuke (Explosion, numbers are similar to Lando-T above) which forces teams to run a check for it to be able to consistently beat it. Plus, it can revenge kill Marshadow which is an added bonus.
Shift gear Genesect is just awful. It can't setup on anything, has no coverage that deals real damage (and thus cannot sweep), and doesn't let genesect beat any of its a swers. Iron Head is similarly bad, as an offstab, 80 bp move just sorta tickles, especially with steel's shit coverage. While it does have special attacks, this doesnt stop it from gettting walled by zapdos, Magearna, and blissey, three of the most common walls, nor does it help with being stupid sr weak. The only real things it has going for it is the sheer power of download+techno blast (unreliable) and uturn, and the latter prevents it from mega evolving and is thus not a real hame changer. A+ implies its a top tier metagame threat, and its really not.
Tapu Koko:
B+ to B-/B
Tapu Koko with 160 Sp. Atk and 150 Spe (Pidgeotite) under Electric Terrain is terrifying, especially with Zap Cannon (120 BP + 50% chance of paralysis) being its goto STAB move, while having Dazzling Gleam for dark dungeons and big dragons and decent coverage with Grass Knot (Which can't 2HKO Pdon... right Chazm?). However, it is easily walled by 2 very prominent pokemon in the meta in Groudon-Primal and Blissey, who really only have to stall (if not KO) Koko for 5 turns before Electric Terrain fades and it loses 1/3 of its power. Xurkitree however can setup with Tail Glow, has the same coverage as special Tapu Koko and isn't punished by switching out, while their speed tiers are quite different, the difference in power gives Xurk an edge on a meta dominated by Balance and BO. Other Koko variants (Lucarionite, Pinsirite and Gardevoirite) have niches but are clearly inferior to Pidgeotite (This does not mean they are unviable)


252 SpA Tapu Koko (Pidgeotite) Zap Cannon under Electric Terrain vs. 252 HP / 156 SpD Blissey (Sablenite): 183-216 (25.6 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko (Pidgeotite) Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Groudon-Primal: 167-197 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Dont compare Tapu Koko to xurkitree; Xurkitree is a mediocre wallbreaker, while Tapu Koko actually runs all over offense. Almost nothing bar scarfers outspeed it, it resists aerilate and ohkoes all users, pdon cant switch in with rocks up, and it can't be revenged by Weavile, Golisopod, Arceus or Marshadow. Yes, terrain is impermanant, but its still absurdly difficult to face without it when it can pivot out of any unfavorable matchup while dealing a big chunk to whatever switches in. Really, the only multiple use answer is Blissey, which still hates switch and nature's madness, and the most offensive team that can use that is bulky balance.

Mandibuzz:
Unranked to B+
Very similar do Skarmory, can switch into Marshadow and deal a lot of damage with Foul Play. Has reliable Recovery, Hazard Removal in Defog and can serve as a Pivot with U-Turn. Was already really nice as a pivot before, and with Marshadow on the meta its viability rises drastically
Why People think this walls marshadow is beyond me; the best set, bulk up, can 1v1 it after Stealth Rock, so there's no way Mandibuzz can switch in. Its not like you can stop it from getting sr damage, as its almost always the defogger, and a bunch of things it checks like pdon deal a huge chunk to it; overall, it can check maybe one mon a match and is very easily pressured. It's definitally deserving of a rank, but B+ is too high.
So I think this may cause some controversy but I would like to nominate Golisopod to fall... quite a bit.

The main two roles Golisopod serves are as a switch-in to Primal Groudon and as a wallbreaker. I don't think it does either of these roles very well. As a Pdon switch-in it gets predicted by any good opponent and either pdon sets rocks or hits it with Stone Edge. Yes Pdon then has to switch out or be killed by Aqua Jet, but it can then switch right back in and all Goli can do is toxic it on the switch. Against the only other common Red Orb mon, Raikou, Golisopod gets murdered if it tries to switch in (Togekiss isn't common or that good imo, Volcarona isn't common).

As a wallbreaker Golisopod... isn't hard to switch into honestly. It allows strong offensive mons to switch in, such as Pinsirite Zygarde, Rayquaza, Pdon, any other red orb mon, and Kartana. The most these mons have to fear is a Toxic, which hardly makes for a good "nuke". There are also plenty of defensive mons which can wall it, especially if it lacks Swords Dance (which it should, Swords Dance just doesn't fit on its best sets imo). It's also atrociously slow leaving it to rely on Aqua Jet way more than it wants to.

Having said all that Golisopod isn't awful. Forcing out Pdon is always good on teams that can take proper advantage of this (eg not letting it in for free easily again). It also serves as a nice Weavile counter and a decent revenge killer, although water isn't great as a type for revenge killing i m o.

And finally in all its roles Golisopod finds itself worn down easily. By rocks, by switching into what its supposed to check, and... yeh that's mostly it. It doesn't have the survivability to be reliable in longer or even medium length matches. And no, Leech Life is not good enough healing for it.

I'd like to nominate Golisopod for B+. I could personally see it lower, but not much lower. Please comment like subscribe tell me if I'm insane.
Golisopod 100% runs swords dance; this is probably a large part of why you think its so bad, as the other sets just arent anywhere near as good. Generally, dual water stab+toxic is the way to go, but Uninvested ice beam is also a great set (-spe matters nothing) which destroys zygarde on the switch. The point of golisopod is threefold; to run over any teams without red orb mons, to force predictions by and freely force out red orb mons, and to come in on said red orb mons (mainly pdon) and take a huge chunk out of something. It can also revenge kill or toxic pdon for another answer, as well as check the common weavile. A+ is perhaps overselling its current impact, as people are now far more prepared for it (edge pdon especially), but its still a great pick for almost any offense team with some form of hazard management, and its absolutely something you always need to prepare for when building and playing. A seems decent, or maybe A- if you guys feel the changes have hurt a bit more, but not B+ and as not lower.


Kartana from A+ to A/A-

I had always thought Kartana didn't deserve its A+ rank due to Zapdos running amok in the meta, but now, with Marshadow acting as a check to it, Kartana has become a Pokemon that has much more difficulty setting up and sweeping teams, unlike it used to. However, it still deserves its spot on many teams due to its already sky-high Attack stat, making it break through walls even without an Attack boost, 2HKOing most variants of Groudon-Primal.
Neither Zapdos nor Marshadow are real Kartana checks; they might suffice if your team already soft checks it and doesnt give it many opportunities, but they are nowehere near reliable. Marshadow has a chance to be ohkoed after stealth rock; quarenteed if nonmega, and likely if metagrossite, while zapdos needs heat wave to not get run over by SD and is still easily pressured besides. Marshadow is also outsped unless it runs the inferior metagrossite, so most of the time kartana is acting as a marshadow answer, and thats to say nothing of the Lopunnite sets that can take close combat.

Pdon is no where near good enough to be S+. Personally, I wouldn't even say it's S at all
I honestly have to agree with this; Im not sure if we really have a standout best mon like we did in the skymin meta, but if we did it would probably be marshadow; pdon is good, but S+ is way overblowing it and even S has some problems.
 
Last edited:
There are a couple of changes that I disagree with, so Ill respond to them here:
Golisopod 100% runs swords dance; this is probably a large part of why you think its so bad, as the other sets just arent anywhere near as good. Generally, dual water stab+toxic is the way to go, but Uninvested ice beam is also a great set (-spe matters nothing) which destroys zygarde on the switch. The point of golisopod is threefold; to run over any teams without red orb mons, to force predictions by and freely force out red orb mons, and to come in on said red orb mons (mainly pdon) and take a huge chunk out of something. It can also revenge kill or toxic pdon for another answer, as well as check the common weavile. A+ is perhaps overselling its current impact, as people are now far more prepared for it (edge pdon especially), but its still a great pick for almost any offense team with some form of hazard management, and its absolutely something you always need to prepare for when building and playing. A seems decent, or maybe A- if you guys feel the changes have hurt a bit more, but not B+ and as not lower.
I'm going to preface this by saying I'm avoiding talking about stall because I haven't played with it recently. There are Goli walls on stall ig, Tina for instance, but I don't really know what I'm talking about.

I'm not sure what to say that I haven't already said so I'll repeat myself a bit: I find Golisopod easy to switch into, easy to pressure, easy to chip. Kartana, any Red Orb mon, Pinsirite Zygarde; none of these fear more than Toxic. While Toxicing these mons (bar Kart ofc) isn't nothing, it's kind of bad when you consider that all of these are strong offensive mons that you dont want to give free turns to. I would change any form of hazard control to a very reliable form of hazard control. If Goli is constantly taking chip damage it cant abuse the good bulk it has.

I guess I can agree that teams do have to prepare for it, but to have a place in A+ I think Goli should be more difficult to stop than it is, and require less support than it does.

A- would be fine for me. I think A is still too high. B+ was probably me being biased from running Ray + Pdon for so long.

.............
How common / good is Ice Beam? I've never run across it in a good long while of switching Ray fearlessly into it, but it seems like it would be a pretty effective way of neutralizing some checks on the switch-in. Might change my opinion a little in an upwards direction, although not likely more than its already been changed tbh.
sorry if this is scattered my brain is dying cuz its late
Neither Zapdos nor Marshadow are real Kartana checks; they might suffice if your team already soft checks it and doesnt give it many opportunities, but they are nowehere near reliable. Marshadow has a chance to be ohkoed after stealth rock; quarenteed if nonmega, and likely if metagrossite, while zapdos needs heat wave to not get run over by SD and is still easily pressured besides. Marshadow is also outsped unless it runs the inferior metagrossite, so most of the time kartana is acting as a marshadow answer, and thats to say nothing of the Lopunnite sets that can take close combat.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by Zapdos being easily pressured, but a lot of them run Heat Wave, and pDef Zapdos takes less than 25% from Kartana's Leaf Blade. It seems like a pretty solid check to me. Zapdos just has to be above ~50% after rocks when switching in and it will do fine as far as I can see.