M&M Mix and Mega Resources

Chloe

après ma mort, je ferai tomber une pluie de roses
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
#1
Index
- Viability Rankings
- Set Viability Rankings
- Role Compendium
- Checks Compendium
- Speed Tiers
- Threatlist
- Ban & Suspect Archive

Attention
Any general Mix and Mega discussion should be discussed in the Mix and Mega Metagame Thread. This thread is solely for the discussion of the resources listed (Viability Rankings, Speed Tiers, Role Compendium, e.t.c.)

Resources
Metagame Thread
Sample Teams
Mega Stone Spreadsheet
May Usage Statistics
May Moveset Usage Statistics
Mix and Mega Damage Calculator by Kris
Introduction to Mix and Mega by Funbot28

Articles
None yet.

Tournaments
Mix and Mega Tournament - Won by M'joe'ra
Mix and Mega Open - OMGS II - Won by Akashi
Mix and Mega: Stones Unleashed - Won by ihhca
Mix but you have to Mega - In Progress
 

nv

The Lost Age
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
#2
Pokémon Viability Rankings

Welcome to the official Mix and Mega Viability Rankings. The concept of this thread is that we will organize the Pokémon in this metagame into ranks, varying on how good they are. You are encouraged to post thoughts on where each Pokémon should be ranked; however, there are a few regulations we follow:
  • Firstly, nominations without context or supporting evidence will be ignored (especially when it comes to unranked Pokemon). Providing replays and usage stats are excellent ways to display your nominated Pokémon in action; although, this is not required and should not be the basis of your argument. In the case of arguing the viability of stones, one must provide good users alongside the replays to give a sense of how versatile a stone may be.

  • Secondly, be civil when debating with other users. Nothing makes your argument seem more invalid than when you begin to insult another user instead of actually debating the topic at hand.

  • Thirdly, ensure any replays provided are against skilled opponents with actual teams. If your opponent has a Absolite Pyukumuku, this is a clear indication that this is not the case.
S Rank
Primal Groudon (Red Orb)​
Zygarde (Altarianite, Pinsirite, Lucarionite)​
A Rank
A+
Arceus-Ground (Earth Plate, Groundium Z)​
Blissey (Sablenite, Slowbronite)​
Magearna (Sablenite, Cameruptite, Latiasite, Venusaurite)​
A
Arceus-Fairy (Pixie Plate)​
Deoxys-Speed (Gyaradosite, Pidgeotite)​
Kartana (Metagrossite, Lopunnite)​
Tapu Lele (Diancite, Absolite, Lucarionite, Pidgeotite)​
Xerneas (Power Herb, Choice Scarf, Fairium Z)​
Zapdos (Sablenite, Venusaurite)​
A-
Entei (Altarianite, Pinsirite)​
Tapu Koko (Pidgeotite, Lucarionite, Pinsirite)​
Terrakion (Lucarionite, Diancite, Metagrossite)​
Toxapex (Sablenite, Latiasite, Gyaradosite)​
Weavile (Glalitite, Lucarionite)​

B Rank
B+
Arceus-Ghost (Ghostium-Z, Spooky Plate)​
Genesect (Pinsirite, Altarianite, Glalitite)​
Landorus-T (Altarianite, Pinsirite, Salamencite, Lopunnite)​
Manaphy (Absolite, Sceptilite)​
Raikou (Red Orb)​
Skarmory (Blue Orb, Venusaurite)​
Togekiss (Red Orb, Sablenite)​
Thundurus (Pidgeotite)​
Volcarona (Red Orb)​
B
Arceus-Water (Splash Plate)​
Buzzwole (Aggronite, Sablenite)​
Cobalion (Pinsirite, Altarianite)​
Gengar (Gengarite, Pidgeotite)​
Giratina-Origin (Griseous Orb)​
Golisopod (Blue Orb)​
Hippowdon (Sablenite)​
Ho-Oh (Choice Band, Life Orb, Leftovers)​
Mandibuzz (Sablenite, Venusaurite)​
Keldeo (Pidgeotite, Absolite, Diancite)​
Lunala (Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, Leftovers)​
Mew (Sablenite, Pidgeotite)​
Shuckle (Ampharosite, Gyaradosite, Mental Herb)​
Xurkitree (Pidgeotite)​
Yveltal (Life Orb, Leftovers, Choice Scarf, Rocky Helmet)​
B-
Arcanine (Altarianite, Pinsirite)​
Cresselia (Sablenite, Red Orb)​
Excadrill (Focus Sash, Metagrossite)​
Kyogre (Choice Scarf)​
Kyogre-Primal (Blue Orb)​
Metagross (Pinsirite)​
Mimikyu (Metagrossite, Diancite)​
Rayquaza (Life Orb)​
C Rank
C+
Arceus (Life Orb)​
Arceus-Steel (Iron Plate, Steelium Z)​
Mantine (Audinite, Sablenite)​
Zygarde-Complete (Groundium-Z, Leftovers, Chesto Berry)​
C
Ditto (Choice Scarf)​
Garchomp (Lucarionite)​
Giratina (Leftovers)​
Gyarados (Pinsirite, Altarianite)​
Venusaur (Red Orb, Venusaurite)​
Victini (Red Orb)​
C-
Arceus-Poison (Toxic Plate, Poisonium Z)​
Arceus-Rock (Stone Plate)​
Breloom (Banettite)​
Shedinja (Focus Sash)​
Solgaleo (Normalium Z)​
Vaporeon (Sablenite)​
Mega Stones Viability Rankings
Restricted Stones: These stones are restricted to certain Pokémon.
Beedrillite (+60 Attack, -30 Special Attack, +70 Speed | Adaptability | N/A | 11 Kg)​
Blazikenite (+40 Attack, +10 Defense, +20 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Speed Boost | N/A | N/A)​
Gengarite (+20 Defense, +40 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Shadow Tag | N/A | N/A)​
Kangaskanite (+30 Attack, +20 Defense, +20 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Parental Bond | N/A | +20 Kg)​
Mawilite (+20 Attack, +40 Defense, +40 Special Defense | Huge Power | N/A | +12 Kg)​
Medichamite (+40 Attack, +10 Defense, + 20 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Pure Power | N/A | N/A)​
A Rank
Altarianite (+40 Attack, +20 Defense, +40 Special Attack | Pixilate | +
| N/A)​
Diancite (+60 Attack, -40 Defense, +60 Special Attack, -40 Special Defense, +60 Speed | Magic Bounce | N/A | +19 Kg)​
Lucarionite (+35 Attack, +18 Defense, +25 Special Attack, +22 Speed | Adaptability | N/A | +3.5 Kg)​
Metagrossite (+10 Attack, +20 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +40 Speed | Tough Claws | N/A | +392.9 Kg)​
Pidgeotite (+5 Defense, +65 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, +20 Speed | No Guard | N/A | +11 Kg)​
Sablenite (+10 Attack, +50 Defense, +20 Special Attack, +50 Special Defense, -30 Speed | Magic Bounce | N/A | +150 Kg)​
B Rank
Ampharosite (+20 Attack, +20 Defense, +50 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, -10 Speed | Mold Breaker | +
| N/A)​
Glalitite (+40 Attack, +40 Special Attack, +20 Speed | Refrigerate | N/A | +93.7 Kg)​
Lopunnite (+60 Attack, +10 Defense, +30 Speed | Scrappy | +
| -5 Kg)​
Pinsirite (+30 Attack, +20 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Aerilate | +
| +4 Kg)​
Red Orb (+30 Attack, +20 Defense, +50 Special Attack | Desolate Land | +
| +49.7 Kg)​
Venusaurite (+18 Attack, +40 Defense, +22 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense | Thick Fat | N/A | +55.5 Kg)​
C Rank
Absolite (+20 Attack, +40 Special Attack, +40 Speed | Magic Bounce | N/A | +2 Kg)​
Aggronite (+30 Attack, +50 Defense, +20 Special Defense | Filter | +
| +35 Kg)​
Blue Orb (+50 Attack, +30 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense | Primordial Sea | N/A | +78 Kg)​
Cameruptite (+20 Attack, +30 Defense, +40 Special Attack, +30 Special Defense, -20 Speed | Sheer Force | N/A | +100.5 Kg)​
Gyaradosite (+30 Attack, +30 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +30 Special Defense | Mold Breaker | +
| +70 Kg)​
Latiasite (+20 Attack, +30 Defense, +30 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense | Levitate | N/A | +12 Kg)​
Slowbronite (+70 Defense, +30 Special Attack | Shell Armor | N/A | +31.5 Kg)​
D Rank
Aerodactylite (+30 Attack, +20 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Tough Claws | N/A | +20 Kg)​
Audinite (+40 Defense, +20 Special Attack, +40 Special Defense | Healer | +
| +1 Kg)​
Banettite (+50 Attack, +10 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +10 Speed | Prankster | N/A | +0.5 Kg )​
Manectite (+20 Defense, +30 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +30 Speed | Intimidate | N/A | +3.8 Kg)​
Salamencite (+10 Attack, +50 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Aerilate | N/A | +10 Kg)​
Sceptilite (+25 Attack, +10 Defense, +40 Special Attack, +25 Speed | Lightning Rod | +
| +3 Kg)​
E Rank
Abomasite (+40 Attack, +30 Defense, +40 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, -30 Speed | Snow Warning | N/A | +49.5 Kg)​
Alakazite (+20 Defense,+40 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, +30 Speed | Trace | N/A | N/A)​
Charizardite X (+46 Attack, +33 Defense, +21 Special Attack | Tough Claws | +
| +20 Kg)​
Charizardite Y (+20 Attack, +50 Special Attack, +30 Special Defense | Drought | N/A | +10 Kg)​
Galladite (+40 Attack, +30 Defense, +30 Speed | Inner Focus | N/A | +4.4Kg)​
Garchompite (+40 Attack, +20 Defense, +40 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, -10 Speed | Sand Force | N/A | N/A)​
Gardevoirite (+20 Attack, +40 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Pixilate | N/A | N/A)​
Heracronite (+60 Attack, +40 Defense, +10 Special Defense, -10 Speed | Skill Link | N/A | +8.5 Kg)​
Houndoominite (+40 Defense, +30 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Solar Power | N/A | +14.5 Kg)​
Latiosite (+40 Attack, +20 Defense, +30 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense | Levitate | N/A | +10 Kg)​
Mewtwonite X (+80 Attack, +10 Defense, +10 Special Defense | Steadfast | +
| +5 Kg)​
Mewtwonite Y (+40 Attack, -20 Defense, +40 Special Attack, +30 Special Defense, +10 Speed | Insomnia | N/A | -89 Kg)​
Scizorite (+20 Attack, +40 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +10 Speed | Technician | N/A | +7 Kg)​
Sharpedonite (+20 Attack, +30 Defense, +15 Special Attack, +25 Special Defense, +10 Speed | Strong Jaw | N/A | +41.5 Kg)​
Steelixite (+40 Attack, +30 Defense, +30 Special Defense | Sand Force | N/A | +340 Kg)​
Swampertite (+40 Attack, +20 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +10 Speed | Swift Swim | N/A | +20.1 Kg)​
Tyranitarite (+30 Attack, +40 Defense, +20 Special Defense, +10 Speed | Sand Stream | N/A | +53 Kg)​
 
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#3
Set Viability Rankings
Led by InfernapeTropius11
Similar to other Viability Rankings, this will act as a resource ranking the sets of Pokemon as compared to the rest of the meta. The higher ranked a set is, the more viable it is in the current state of the metagame. Many Pokemon have multiple viable sets so this resource aims to show how good each individual set of that Pokemon is, which is how it differs from the regular Pokemon Viability Rankings, as different sets may be ranked in different tiers.
Note: this resource is still in progress.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
#4
Role Compendium
Led by InfernapeTropius11

Ever needed a Stealth Rock user, but not sure of one that fits your team? Curious about which Pokemon can viably run a specific stone? If so, then this resource is for you! The role compendium aims to sort every viable Pokemon into the different roles they fulfill, both offensively and defensively, from hazard control to set up moves to access to specific moves, such as Pursuit. Let your searching end, as everything you could possibly need is gathered here in one handy resource!

Hazards and Hazard Support
Stealth Rock

Spikes

Toxic Spikes

Defog

Rapid Spin


Important Roles
Priority

Wish Support

Aromatherapy / Heal Bell

Healing Wish

Pursuit

Volt Switch/U-turn

Z-Moves


Setup Moves
Calm Mind

Swords Dance

Shift Gear

Dragon Dance

Tail Glow

Rock Polish / Autotomize / Agility

Nasty Plot

Coil

Hone Claws

Geomancy

Quiver Dance


Checks to Metagame Threats
Primal Groudon Checks

Genesect Checks

-Ate Checks

Cresselia Checks

Manaphy Checks


Mega Stone Users
Absolite

Aerodactylite

Aggronite

Altarianite

Ampharosite

Audinite

Banettite

Blue Orb

Cameruptite

Diancite

Glalilite

Gyaradosite

Latiasite

Lopunnite

Lucarionite

Metagrossite

Pidgeotite

Pinsirite

Red Orb

Sablenite

Salamencite

Sceptilite

Slowbronite

Venusaurite
 

Chloe

après ma mort, je ferai tomber une pluie de roses
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
#5
Checks Compendium
Led by Chloe.

Having trouble with a specific threat in Mix and Mega? Look no further; this thread will give not only information on what a threat does, but also gives you all the counters you needed to know, and so much more. No matter how niche a counter might be, it will be listed here if it can switch in on, and then force out or KO a specific threat. There will also be checks listed, which are Pokémon that can't switch in safely on a threat, but can nonetheless handle it in a 1v1 situation handily.
All of the entries are ordered from the highest tiered threat to the lowest tiered threat; this will be edited as specific Pokémon are banned and unbanned from holding Mega Stones.

Some rules to keep in mind:
  • Be civil when discussing checks. We don't need to be yelling at a person suggesting Guzzlord as a Raikou check, for example. We also should not be too adamant in suggesting something has zero checks or counters.
  • Make sure to use factual information to support your points. While you might think Blue Orb Scizor is a Raikou check simply because it stops Weather Balls from being STAB, it can simply use a Thunderbolt.
  • Remember, this is a team project. If you see anything that we might have gotten wrong, we can discuss what we should add, or if something listed as a counter is merely a check. Your input is valued here, after all!
Note: This resource is under construction, and will soon be ready for public use. Until then, hold tight!
 
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Chloe

après ma mort, je ferai tomber une pluie de roses
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
#6
Speed Tiers
Led by Chloe.
Formerly led by Zephyr Dragon Lord

With a great multitude of Pokémon, you'll be sure to need to look up how fast every single one is. We'll be making that job far simpler here; this is a compilation of how fast the most important Pokémon are. This will include neutral and positive natures, as well as boosts where they are common.

The following format is used for all entries:
Speed / Pokemon / Base Speed / Nature (+Spe, -Spe, or Neutral) / EVs / +Boost / IVs (where applicable)

810 / Pinsirite Zygarde-10 / 135 / +Spe / 252 / +2
740 / Pinsirite Genesect / 119 / +Spe / 252 / +2
722 / Pinsirite Zygarde / 115 / +Spe / 252 / +2
607 / Pinsirite Zygarde-10 / 135 / +Spe / 252 / +1
541 / Pinsirite Zygarde / 120 / +Spe / 120 / +1
530 / Pinsirite Klinklang / 110 / Neutral / 36 / +2
504 / Gyaradosite Deoxys-Speed / 180 / +Spe / 252 / 0
496 / Pinsirite or Salamencite Gyarados / 101 / +Spe / 252 / +1
490 / Primal Groudon / 90 / Neutral / 116 / +2
490 / Xerneas / 99 / Neutral / 44 / +2
489 / Xerneas / 99 / +Spe / 252 / +1
482 / Abolite Tapu Koko / 170 / +Spe / 252 / 0
475 / Tapu Lele / 95 / +Spe / 252 / +1
459 / Kyogre / 90 / +Spe / 252 / +1
445 / Xerneas / 99 / Neutral / 252 / +1
443 / Lucarionite Tapu Koko / 152 / +Spe / 252 / 0
441 / Absolite Thundurus / 151 / +Spe / 252 / 0
438 / Deoxys-Attack, Pinsirite Tapu Koko, Pidgeotite Tapu Koko / 150 / +Spe / 252 / 0
436 / Metagrossite Kartana / 149 / +Spe / 252 / 0
434 / Metagrossite Terrakion / 148 / +Spe / 252 / 0
432 / Pidgeotite Shaymin-Sky / 147 / +Spe / 252 / 0
427 / Glalilite Weavile / 145 / +Spe / 252 / 0
421 / Metagrossite Garchomp / 142 / +Spe / 252 / 0
416 / Absolite Manaphy / 140 / +Spe / 252 / 0
408 / Metagrossite Mimikyu / 136 / +Spe / 252 / 0
405 / Absolite Tapu Lele, Pinsirite Zygarde-10 / 135 / +Spe / 252 / 0
394 / Mewtwo, Lucarionite Keldeo, Lucarionite Terrakion, Mega Gengar, Pinsirite & Salamencite Archeops / 130 / +Spe / 252 / 0
392 / Pinsirite or Aerodactlyite Kartana / 129 / +Spe / 252 / 0
390 / Pinsirite Cobalion / 128 / +Spe / 252 / 0
388 / Shaymin-Sky / 127 / +Spe / 252 / 0
381 / Lucarionite Garchomp / 124 / +Spe / 252 / 0
379 / Absolite Xurkitree / 123 / +Spe / 252 / 0
372 / Arceus, Absolite Hoopa-Unbound / 120 / +Spe / 252 / 0
370 / Pinsirite Genesect / 119 / +Spe / 252 / 0
366 / Lucarionite Tapu Lele / 117 / +Spe / 252 / 0
361 / Pinsirite Arcanine, Pinsirite Zygarde, Metagrossite Tapu Bulu / 115 / +Spe / 252 / 0
350 / Pinsirite Lucario / 110 / +Spe / 252 / 0
339 / Pinsirite Entei / 120 / Neutral / 252 / 0
335 / Pidgeotite Xurkitree / 103 / +Spe / 0
333 / Lucarionite Hoopa-U, Lucarionite Mamoswine / 102 / +Spe / 252 / 0
331 / Salamencite or Pinsirite Gyarados / 101 / +Spe / 252 / 0
329 / Red Orb Raikou / 115 / Neutral / 252 / 0
328 / Red Orb Volcarona / 100 / +Spe / 252 / 0
326 / Yveltal / 99 / +Spe / 252 / 0
322 / Lunala, Solgaleo / 97 / +Spe / 252 / 0
306 / Primal Kyogre, Primal Groudon / 90 / +Spe / 252 / 0
297 / Yveltal / 99 / Neutral / 252 / 0
289 / Aerodactylite Tapu Bulu / 95 / Neutral / 252 / 0
284 / Blastoisonite Hoopa-U / 80 / +Spe / 252 / 0
280 / Arceus / 120 / Neutral / 16 / 0
280 / Lugia / 110 / Neutral / 96 / 0
279 / Ho-Oh, Primal Kyogre, Primal Groudon, Pinsirite Metagross / 90 / Neutral / 252 / 0
265 / Pinsirite Klinklang / 110 / Neutral / 36 / 0
245 / Primal Groudon / 90 / Neutral / 116 / 0
245 / Xerneas / 99 / Neutral / 44 / 0
236 / Venusaurite Zapdos / 100 / Neutral / 0 / 0
234 / Xerneas / 99 / Neutral / 0 / 0
219 / Ho-Oh, Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre / 90 / Neutral / 12 / 0
206 / Zygarde-100 / 85 / Neutral / 0 / 0
196 / Venusaurite Mandibuzz, Red Orb Togekiss / 80 / Neutral / 0 / 0
186 / Blue Orb Tapu Bulu / 75 / Neutral / 0 / 0
176 / Blue Orb Skarmory, Sablenite Zapdos, Sablenite Mew / 70 / Neutral / 0 / 0
166 / Venusaurite Magearna, Blue Orb Scizor / 65 Neutral / 0 / 0
146 / Slowbronite Blissey, Sablenite Cresselia / 55 / Neutral / 0 / 0
138 / Sablenite Milotic / 51 / Neutral / 0 / 0
136 / Sablenite Mandibuzz, Sablenite Togekiss / 50 / Neutral / 0 / 0
126 / Sablenite Tapu Bulu / 45 / Neutral / 0 / 0
116 / Blue Orb Golisopod / 40 / Neutral / 0 / 0
106 / Sablenite Magearna / 35 / Neutral / 0 / 0
86 / Sablenite Blissey / 25 / Neutral / 0 / 0
46 / Sablenite Toxapex / 5 / Neutral / 0 / 0
40 / Blue Orb Ferrothorn / 20 / -Spe / 0 / 0 / 0 IVs
 
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#7
Threatlist
Led by Quantum Tesseract
The threat list is a combination of two separate lists; an offensive list, and a defensive list. Each pokemon has it's standard set or sets in brackets afterwards. This also lists it's typing, ability, stats, and if available has a short writeup and will contain links to SM analyses as available. If you wan't to suggest additions or removal, be sure to justify your input. If you want to write up an incomplete threat, feel free; if it's up to standards, it will be added to the list

Offensive Threats:
Arcanine [Extreme Speed Revenge Killer]
Fire/Flying
Pinsirite: 90/140/100/110/100/115
Ability: Intimidate->Aerilate
While Fire/Flying is suboptimal type, Arcanine at least starts in the superior pure fire state. It sets itself apart from the stronger Entei despite its lack of Sacred Fire by the ability to run Jolly and a superior movepool that contains gems such as Wild Charge, Close Combat, and Morning Sun--as well as an excellent premega ability in Intimidate. Whether it runs boosting sets with Howl, all out attacker sets that spam Return and Flare Blitz on anything slower, or defensive sets with WIll-o-Wisp and Morning Sun, Arcanine is an effective -ate user that can take on common pokemon such as Weavile without being worn down.

Arceus [Extreme Killer]
Normal
120/120/120/120/120/120
Ability: Multitype
Between its all around excellent stats, freedom of item, and excellent movepool, Arceus is a powerful offensive force. Life Orb Extreme Speed is one of the most powerful available priority moves, and Arceus can support it with varied coverage such as Earthquake, Extreme Speed, Shadow Claw, and even thunder for Blue Orb Skarmory. It can also freely boost with Swords Dance to become even harder to wall. Normal has only one weakness, letting it set up on quite a few pokemon, while it's high speed allows it to revenge KO (And prevents it from being revenged by) opposing -ate.

Arceus-Ghost [Swords Dance Sweeper]
Ghost
120/120/120/120/120/120
Ability: Multitype
Arceus Ghost has only one offensive role, but it does it well. A Ghost Typing and excellent bulk affords it numerous setup opportunities, even against top tier threats like Arceus, and almost nothing enjoys taking a +2 neverending nightmare. Its deep movepool allows it to bypass those who could otherwise take it on, from Brick Break for Normal Types to Extreme Speed for for faster sweepers to Shadow Force for a multi use STAB attack.

Aerilate Archeops [Offensive Stealth Rock]
Rock/Flying
Salamencite: 75/150/115/122/75/130, Pinsirite: 75/170/85/122/85/130
Ability: Aerilate

Cobalion [Swords Dance Sweeper]
Steel/Flying
Pinsirite: 91/120/149/100/92/128
Ability: Aerilate
With Pinsirite, Cobalion is capable of Swords Dancing up reliably. Between its great its great speed, bulk, and typing, it has very few answers. Offensively, it eliminates threats with a combination of Return and Close Combat while also being pretty impervious Revenge Killers such as -atespeeders. With its excellent steel/flying typing, it is immune to toxic and earthquake as well as numerous resistances, giving it many chances to set up for free. In addition, Cobalion has a myriad of support options; Substitute to prevent status or the few faster pokemon from taking it out, Thunder Wave to cripple other attackers, Stealth Rocks to support its team, Quick Attack to Revenge Kill, or even Volt Switch to pivot.

Darkrai [Nasty Plot Sweeper]
Dark
Absolite: 70/110/90/175/90/165, Lucarionite: 70/125/108/160/90/147, Blastoisinite: 70/110/110/185/100/125
Ability: Magic Bounce, Adaptability, Mega Launcher

Deoxys-Speed [Hazard Lead]
Psychic/Dark
Gyaradosite: 50/125/120/105/120/180
Ability: Mold Breaker
Deoxys-Speed, as the fastest Pokemon in the unboosted metagame, is a fantastic lead for offensive teams. It possesses decent bulk so it can utilize Gyaradosite to great effect and often lay down two or more layers of hazards from the beginning of the match. Deoxys-S also learns Taunt, which prevent the opponent from using Defog to clear the hazards it sets and prevents it from becoming setup bait. Deoxys occasnally also runs Dark Pukse or Psycho Boost to deal solid damage.

Ditto [Choice Scarf Imposter]
Normal
48/48/48/48/48/48
Ability: Imposter
Ditto, as the sole Pokemon with the abiliy to use Impostor, has a very unique niche. Ditto can transform into the opposing Pokemon and proceed to outspeed the foe, thanks to Choice Scarf. This makes it very helpful as a revenge killer and can countersweep some teams if they set up too early in the match, as if they cannot handle the Pokémon they have out they lose. Ditto is a fairly one-dimensional Pokemon, as it is obviously going to be Impostor with a Choice Scarf, however this does not make it any less threatening and must be played around throughout the match.


Entei [Extreme Speed Revenge Killer]
Fire/Flying
Pinsirite: 115/145/105/100/95/120
Ability: Aerilate
While its not as good of an -atespeeder as others such as Genesect, Entei is still extremely powerful--particularly since it always runs Adamant. It has access to the exceedingly rare Sacred Fire, which is a powerful Fire move able to burn opponents half of the time. Between this and Extreme Speed, many opponents can find it excruciatingly difficult to switch in, especially not more than once. In addition to those attacks, Entei has a few options for its last slots. It can run Stone Edge as good coverage against foes such as Zapdos, Return for a little more power, Will-o-Wisp to cripple Blue Orb Steel-types, or Howl for boosting.

Garchomp [Offensive Stealth Rock]
Dragon/Ground
Lucarionite: 108/165/113/105/85/124, Metagrossite: 108/140/115/90/105/142
Ability: Adaptability, Tough Claws

Pinsirite Genesect [-Ate Wallbreaker, Shift Gear Sweeper]
Bug/Flying
71/150/115/130/115/119
Abilities Download -> Aerilate
Thanks to an amazing premega ability in download, Genesect gets a free +1 boost to one of its offenses when it first comes in. Because of this, Genesect is able to either become the most powerful revenge killer in the game with a +1 STAB Aerilate Extreme or a terrifying wallbreaker that can break almost anything not named Sablenite Blissey with a terrifyingly powerful Aerilated Techno Blast or one of its many coverage options such as Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, or Ice Beam. It also gets access to Shift Gear, which in conjunction with Download boosts, Extreme Speed, and excellent offensive stats makes it a powerful late game cleaner.

Gengar [Offensive Shadow Tag, Perish Trap]
Ghost/Poison
Gengarite: 60/65/80/170/95/130
Ability: Shadow Tag
Reserved by IT11

Blue Orb Golisopod [Bulky Swords Dance]
Water/Bug
75/175/140/90/110/40
Ability: Primordial Sea
With its Bug-type granted resistance to Ground-type attacks, its high defense stat, and Primordial Sea’s dampening of Fire-type attacks, Golisopod is one of the most reliable Primal Groudon answers in the game. Between a high-powered Water-type STAB in Liquidation, dual Bug- and Water-type priority in First Impression and Aqua Jet, and reasonably reliable recovery in Leech Life, Golisopod can abuse its high attack stat and Swords Dance to do heavy damage to most defensive cores. Particularly, it easily handles troublesome defensive Pokémon such as Skarmory, Blissey, and Cresselia.

Primal Groudon [Offensive Swords Dance, Defensive Stealth Rock, Double Dance, Mixed Rock Polish, Offensive Stealth Rock, Paradancer]
Ground/Fire
90/180/160/150/90/90
Ability: Desolate Land
An extremely versatile and unpredictable Pokémon, Primal Groudon has no true counters. Access to Swords Dance and Rock Polish allows it to clean offense and stall alike, while its incredible bulk gives it manifold and multiple chances to set up safely. It has access to many high base power moves such as Precipice blades to further improve its excellent 180 attack, and can boost fire attacks with its signature sun to even further heights.

Gyarados [Dragon Dance Sweeper]
Water/Flying
Salamencite: 95/135/129/70/110/101, Pinsirite: 95/155/99/70/120/101
Ability: Intimidate->Aerilate
Gyarados is a great setup sweeper in Mix and Mega, capable of Dragon Dancing up to fearsome heights on many different pokemon thanks to its great tying and Intimidate. After a Dragon Dance Gyarados outspeeds pretty much everything, and very little likes takings its attacks. Gyarados can use substitute to set up on walls, or go for extra coverage to complement it's excellent flying and water STAB moves in either Earthquake or Stone Edge.

Hoopa-Unbound [Nasty Plot Wallbreaker]
Psychic/Dark
Blastoisinite:80/180/80/220/140/80, Lucarionite:80/195/78/195/130/102, Absolite:80/180/60/210/130/120
Ability: Mega Launcher, Adaptability, Magic Bounce
Reserved by Funbot28

Kartana [Swords Dance Sweeper]
Grass/Steel, Grass/Flying
Metagrossite 59/191/151/69/51/149, Pinsirite 59/211/151/69/51/129
Ability: Tough Claws or Aerilate
While Kartana doesn't have much movepool to speak of, it does have what it needs to succeed, and any deficiencies can be made up for by its excellent stats. In its base form, Kartana boasts an incredible 181 attack and an excellent 109 speed; with mega stones, it can bolster these still further and become a threatening sweeper. Between its powerful Grass, Steel, Normal, and Fighting type attacks, Kartana can hit anything not named Zapdos or Skarmory for heavy damage, and even those do not enjoy switching into a boosted Kartana. An excellent physical bulk and high speed stat makes Metagrossite sets almost impossible to revenge KO, while Pinsirite sets are similarly difficult to wall.

Keldeo [Calm Mind Wallbreaker]
Water/Fighting
Lucarionite: 91/107/108/154/90/130
Ability: Adaptability
Reserved by IT11

Klinklang [Offensive Shift Gear]
Steel/Flying
Pinsirite: 60/130/135/80/105/110
Ability: Aerilate
Thanks to one of the best setup moves in the game in Shift Gear, Klinklang is a potent sweeper. Shift Gear allows it to boost its speed quickly, while also boosting attack, allowing Klinklang to outspeed and clean many teams late game. With Pinsirite, Klinklang also boasts a fantastic Steel/Flying typing, which allows it to set up on many threats due to few weaknesses and many resistances. This typing also means it resists Aerilate and regular Extreme Speed, allowing for more efficient sweeps. Klinklang's coverage includes Aerilate Return, Gear Grind, and Wild Charge. While this does not allow it to hit Steel- or Electric-types particularly well, it i should still very threatening to most teams, as STAB Return hits very hard after a Shift Gear boost.

Kyogre-Primal [Offensive Calm Mind]
Water
Blue Orb: 100/150/90/180/160/90
Ability: Primordial Sea

Lucario [Swords Dance Sweeper]
Fighting/Flying, Fighting/Steel
Pinsirite:70/140/90/125/90/110, Lucarionite:70/145/88/140/70/112
Ability: Aerilate, Adaptability
What it lacks in power, it makes up for in movepool. Unlike other -atespeeders, it can quickly boost past walls with Swords Dance, stopping bulky pokemon from coming on and just sitting on it. Its second typing doesn't hurt matters, either; a powerful close combat allows it to hit any Rock or Steel types that want to take Extreme Speed. From there, it can choose between Earthquake for Electric types and Magearna, Stone Edge for Zapdos, or Ice punch for switchins such as Zygarde. To make matters worse, it also has an effective wallbreaker with it's native stone, Lucarionite, that hits those few things that answer the pinsirite set with a more powerful Close Combat and a brutal Iron Tail.

Lunala [SubCM Stallbreaker]
Ghost/Psychic
137/113/89/137/107/97
Ability: Shadow Shield
With a Substitute, Lunala blocks all status and turns almost any bulky pokemon into setup bait. Psyshock lets it bypass other CM sweepers and Blissey, while Moonghiest beam lets it CM vs Cresselia and win as well as providing a more powerful STAB attack. Versus offense, it can use it's excellent bulk and Shadow Shield to get off at least 1, and usually 2, attacks before being KOed despite its low speed. It is also immune to both Fighting and normal attacks, granting it numerous switchin opportunities, and allowing it to check most such sweepers.

Mamoswine [Offensive Stealth Rock]
Ground/Ice
Lucarionite: 110/165/98/95/60/102
Ability: Adaptability

Absolite Manaphy [Tail Glow Sweeper]
Water
100/120/100/140/100/140
Ability: Magic Bounce
While its stats are nothing exceptional, access to Tail Glow sets Manaphy apart. Being able to boost its special attack by three stages in one go lets Manaphy pick apart most bulky cores, and outpace defensive boosted that rely on moves such as Calm Mind. While it cannot beat Sablenite Blissey or certain Red Orb users, almost anything else is fair game, and an excellent ability in Magic Bounce gives it many setup abilities against common walls. Versus offense, however, it is hardly dead weight either--an excellent 140 speed allows it to outpace most staples, while its bulk is more than sufficient to live an Aerilated Extreme Speed from close to full. Between Scald, Energy Ball, Psychic, and Ice Beam, very little wishes to take it on.

Metagross [Offensive Stealth Rock]
Steel/Flying
Pinsirite: 80/165/150/105/110/90
Ability: Aerilate

Metagrossite Mimikyu [Swords Dance Sweeper]
Ghost/Fairy
55/100/100/60/125/136
Ability: Disguise -> Tough Claws
As far as setup goes, Disguise is effectively a better Multiscale; it gives an almost entirely free turn for Mimikyu to set up Swords Dance and make up for its mediocre attack, while functioning unimpeded even in the presence of entry hazards. While Mimikyu’s stats are mediocre, Disguise allows it to freely double--or more--its attack, and it's nice speed tier lets it usually get off a hit after boosting.

Raikou [CM Weather Ball Sweeper]
Electric/Fire
Red Orb: 90/115/95/165/100/115
Ability: Desolate Land
Thanks to an event-granted access to weather ball, Raikou can use the Red Orb to become a powerful attacker. Between a powerful 165 base Special Attack, a new Fire typing, and the boost from Desolate Land, Raikou can hit nearly everything for solid damage, including bulky switchins such as Primal Groudon. Unlike most fire moves, this is not blocked by Primordial Sea--the attack is weakened instead of negated, so such Pokémon cannot switch in freely. While a Rash nature hinders it somewhat, the extra power makes Raikou's difficult to wall, and it still manages to outspeeds the crowded base 100 speed tier. Raikou can viably perform as an offensive pivot or a Calm Mind sweeper, making it difficult to predict unless you scout its moveset.

Scizor [Offensive Swords Dance]
Bug/Steel
Blue Orb: 70/180/100/85/100/65
Ability: Primordial Sea
Scizor is a great Blue Orb user thanks to the rain negating its sole weakness. The extra power and bulk do not go amiss either, offering Scizor more and more effective chances to boost. Iron Head and X-Scissor hit most foes for reliable damage, while superpower demolishes steel types and Bullet Punch picks off weakened threats. Scizor can also recover health with roost, allowing it to boost up multiple times per match and serve as an excellent pivot with U-Turn.

Tapu Bulu [All Out Attacker]
Grass/Fairy
Aerodactylite: 70/160/135/95/115/95, Metagrossite: 70/140/135/95/115/115
Ability: Grassy Terrain->Tough Claws
The main thing Tapu Bulu brings to the table is sheer power. Whether it's using Wood Hammer to smash walls and bulky threats with a truly threatening level of power or sustaining itself with Horn Leech, Tapu Bulu's main role is to use the grassy terrain it sets and its postmega tough claws to nuke anything that tries to take it on. Tapu Bulu also has coverage, such as Stone Edge for Ho-Oh and other flying types, Superpower for Steel-types, and Megahorn for the many bulky Psychic types such as Cresselia and Mew. Tape Bulu also has a pair of boosting moves in Swords Dance and Bulk Up to further destroy foes. When paired with a decent speed tier, this is nearly impossible to come into; Aerodatylite sets out speed anything on stall, while Metagrossite sets can tie anything up to Kyurem-Black.

Tapu Koko [Offensive Pivot]
Electric/Fairy, Electric/Fairy, Electric/Flying
Lucarionite: 70/150/103/120/75/152, Absolite: 70/135/85/135/75/170, Pinsirite:70/145/105/105/95/150
Ability: Electric Surge->Adaptability, Magic Bounce, Aerilate
Despite its low offensive stats, Tapu Koko still hits very hard thanks to its excellent premega ability in electric terrain. Functioning as a free choice specs boost for electric type attacks, it allows Tapu Koko to function as a powerful pivot or attacker. Tapu Koko also has a powerful second STAB attack in Dazzling gleam to hit dragons, while Nature's Madness injures walls and cripple ground types like Pimal Groudon. To make things worse for any Ground or Grass types that try to switch in, Tapu Koko also has a pinsirite set that allows it to spam high powered Aerilated Returns on its usual answers.

Tapu Lele [Calm Mind Sweeper]
Psychic/Fairy
Absolite: 70/105/75/170/115/135, Lucarionite: 70/120/93/155/115/117
Ability: Psychic Terrain->Magic Bounce, Adaptability
Reserved by Funbot28

Terrakion [Swords Dance Sweeper]
Fighting/Rock
Lucarionite:91/164/108/97/90/130, Metagrossite:91/139/110/82/110/148
Ability: Adaptability, Tough Claws
While it misses out on outspeeding the very top pokemon, Terrakion is still an extremely effective cleaner. Swords Dance improves its already excellent damage output to obscene levels, while its dual STAB combination fo fighting and rock is almost impossible to wall. Terrakion can also protect itself from status and priority with substitute, while earthuake provides more coverage and stealth rock lets it support its teammates during all of the switches it cases, particularly given how it beats most defoggers.

Thundurus [Nasty Plot Sweeper]
Electric/Flying
Absolite: 79/135/70/165/80/151
Ability: Magic Bounce

Volcarona[Offensive Quiver Dance]
Bug/Fire
Red Orb: 85/90/85/185/105/100
Ability: Desolate Land

Glalilite Weavile [Revenge Killer]
Dark/Ice
70/165/65/85/85/145
Ability: Refrigerate
Thanks to its access to Fake Out and Feint, Weacile acts as an excellent revenge killer. Its high speed stat allows it to outpace even Extreme Speeders to use Feint, and let's it get off the first hit versus ordinary foes. Low Kick and Return have almost perfect coverage, but Weavile also gets moves such as Throat Chop, Swords Dance, and Double Edge to hit anything slower for heavy damage.

Xerneas [Choice Scarf, Geomancy, Z-Geomancy]
Fairy
126/131/95/131/98/99
Ability: Fairy Aura
While it cannot mega evolve, Xerneas is still a force to be reckoned with. Thanks to Fairy Aura's damage boost, even Choice Scarf sets can wear down switchins. Choice Scarf, the most common set, uses its high speed to function as a revenge killer; only Deoxys-S outspeeds it without boosts, while switchins have to contend with Grass Knot, Thunder(bolt), Close Combat and Focus Blast. Like in Ubers, Xerneas can also sweep with a Geomancy set, and while checks are stronger--and thus need to be more weakened--it is less prepared for.

Xurkitree [Offensive Tail glow]
Electric
Absolite: 83/109/71/213/71/123
Ability: Magic Bounce

Yveltal [Life Orb Attacker]
Dark/Flying
126/131/95/131/98/99
Ability: Dark Aura

Zygarde [Dragon Dance Sweeper]
Dragon/Flying
Pinsirite: 108/130/141/91/115/115
Ability: Aerilate
Due to the introduction to its new signature move in Thousand Arrows, Zygarde has become an even more dangerous offensive threat this generation in conjunction with Aerilate boosted Extreme Speeds thanks to Aerilate from the Pinsirite or Salamencite. After a single Dragon Dance, Zygarde can wreck havoc on many teams lacking a solid Flying resist that is not weak to Ground-type attacks such as Skarmory or Zapdos. Zygarde also possesses solid bulk for an offensive pokemon, which allows it many opportunities to setup and become a difficult threat that is not only hard to wall, but also take down.

Defensive Threats
Arceus-Ground [Fast Bulky Support]
Ground
120/120/120/120/120/120
Ability: Multitype

Arceus-Rock [Fast Bulky Support]
Rock
120/120/120/120/120/120
Ability: Multitype

Arceus-Water [Defensive Defog]
Water
120/120/120/120/120/120
Ability: Multitype


Blissey [Defensive Cleric, Calm Mind]
Normal
Sablenite: 255/20/60/95/185/25, Slowbronite: 255/10/80/105/135/55
Ability: Magic Bounce, Shell Armor
As the premier special wall of the tier, Blissey is extremely difficult on both sides of the spectrum. Between Magic Bounce, Softboiled, and Heal Bell, Sablenite is almost immune to being worn down, while Shell Armor allows Blissey to sweep unprepared or weakened teams while protecting against Critical Hits in Calm Mind wars.

Cresselia [Calm Mind Sweeper]
Psychic
Sablenite: 120/80/170/95/180/55
Ability: Magic Bounce
Cresselia has a near unrivaled bulk, few weaknesses, and a nice ability to protect it from status and taunt. Calm Mind fixes its weaker Special Defense, while Psyshock lets it win calm Mind wars. Although its struggles with Steel-types, it has few other issues--between psuedoreliable recovery, Moonblast for Dark Types, and its great bulk, very little can stop it after setup.

Giratina-O [Defensive Defog]
Ghost/Dragon
150/120/100/120/100/90
Ability: Levitate

Lugia [Bulky Support]
Psychic/Flying
106/90/130/90/154/110
Ability: Multiscale

Magearna [Defensive Heart Swap]
Steel/Fairy
Venusaurite: 80/113/155/152/135/65, Sablenite: 80/105/165/150/165/35
Ability: Thick Fat, Magic Bounce
Magearna has an amazing offensive and defensive typing, as well as a solid movepool like Fleur Cannon, Flash Cannon, Volt Switch, Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, and Aura Sphere. It also has Pain Split for recovery and Heart Swap, which can be used very well to steal other stats from setup sweepers like Cresselia, and also cripple incoming pokemon via a Fleur Cannon + Heart Swap combo. It can use almost any defensive stone very well, all which give it more defensive capability and at the same time make it a better nuke.

Mandibuzz [Defensive Defog]
Dark/Flying
Sablenite: 110/75/155/75/145/50, Venusaurite: 110/83/145/77/115/80
Ability: Magic Bounce, Thick Fat

Milotic [Bulky Phaze]
Water
Sablenite: 95/70/129/120/175/51
Ability:Magic Bounce

Alolan Muk [Bulky Pursuit Trapper]
Dark/Poison
Lucarionite
Ability: Adaptability
Alolan Muk is a new Pokemon introduced with the new generation, and despite seemingly subpar stats, it is blessed with a fantastic typing and just enough attack to be a fantastic addition to stall teams. Despite a lack of reliable recovery, Muk-Alola serves an important role on stall, as it can switch in on and trap Hoopa-Unbound and Mega Gengar, two of the most difficult Pokemon for stall to counter. With Lucarionite, 252 attack EVs, and an Adamant nature, it guarantees the OHKO on most variants of Hoopa-Unbound with Pursuit (if they switch), as well as OHKOing Mega Gengar, preventing them from doing their stall- and wallbreaking jobs. It also does a lot of damage to Cresselia with Adaptability-boosted STAB Crunch, making it a very useful Pokemon on the newly viable playstyle that is stall.

Scizor [Bulky Pivot]
Bug/Steel
Blue Orb: 70/180/100/85/100/65
Ability: Primordial Sea
While its stats are far better suited for an offensive role, Scizor's unique combination of type and movepool allow it to function as an able defensive pivot. A Defogger that is both neutral to rocks and has no weaknesses is a great boon for any team, and it can U-turn to preserve momentum or use Toxic to threaten certain switches. An excellent steel type prevents it from being worn down with toxic itself, and reliable recovery in roost let it do so multiple times. Because of how much it walls, it excels at gaining free turns, which lets it either remove hazards for the team with Defog freely or steal back momentum.

Skarmory [Defensive Hazard Manager]
Steel/Flying
Blue Orb: 65/130/140/70/90/70
Ability: Primordial Sea

Tapu Bulu [Bulky Attacker]
Sablenite: 70/140/165/105/145/45,Blue Orb: 70/180/115/115/115/75
Ability: Grassy Terrain->Magic Bounce, Primordial Sea

Togekiss [Stallbreaker, Bulky Defog]
Red Orb: 85/80/115/170/115/80, Sablenite:85/60/145/140/165/50
Ability: Desolate Land, Magic Bounce

Toxapex [Defensive Toxic Spikes]
Water/Poison
Sablenite: 50/73/202/73/192/5
Ability: Regenerator->Magic Bounce
Toxapex with Sablenite has insane defenses, Magic Bounce, and a decent support movepool with Recover, Baneful Bunker, and Toxic Spikes. It also has haze, which can neutrilize opposing sweepers. While it's HP stat is lacking, it's still very bulky, and it can use its premega ability of Regenerator to freely pivot before it needs the bulk from Sablenite. Should toxic spikes be reflected back by magic bounce, it can also switch in and absorb them.

Yveltal [Tough Bird]
Dark/Flying
126/131/95/131/98/99
Ability: Dark Aura

Zapdos [Defensive Defog]
Electric/Flying
Venusaurite: 90/108/125/147/110/100, Sablenite: 90/100/135/145/140/70
Ability: Thick Fat, Magic Bounce
With Venusaurite, Zapdos is able to freely Defog on support Primal Groudon, setting Toxic and stalling it out while ignoring both Lava Plume and Precipice Blades. It also walls dangerous sweepers such as Genesect, Zygarde, Lucario, and Weavile. With Sablenite, Zapdos swaps out Genesect, Weavile, and Kyurem-Black for Support Arceus and a more proactive ant-hazard role. Zapdos can also steal momentum with U-Turn or Volt Switch, and cripple switchins with Toxic.

Zygarde-Perfect [Defensive Resttalk]
Dragon/Ground
216/100/121/91/95/85
Ability:Power Construct
Thanks to its excellent HP stat, Zygarde becomes on of the bulkiest pokemon in the game, even without a mega stone. While Rest is not the most reliable recovery, it prevents status as well, so the only ways to wear down Zygarde are Taunt and strong attacks--and mostly special ones at that. Zygarde can also simultaneously increase its bulk and damage with Coil, while Shuffling switchins with dragon tail or just abusing the excellent coverage of Thousand Arrows.
 
Last edited:

Chloe

après ma mort, je ferai tomber une pluie de roses
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
#8
Ban and Suspect Archive:

Bans in [Gen 7] Mix and Mega
Pokémon, banned from using Mega Stones.
22nd November 2016 - Quickbanned
(Occurred prior to thread creation.)
7th January 2017 - Quickbanned
[Announcement]
14th January 2017 - Quickbanned
[Announcement]
24th March 2017 - Suspected
[Suspect] [Results]
30th March 2017 - Quickbanned
[Announcement]
26th April 2017 - Suspected
[Suspect] [Results]
13th June 2017 - Suspected
[Suspect] [Results]
13th September 2017 - Suspected
[Suspect] [Results]

Mega Stones, banned from non-native users.
(Mawilite) 27th February 2017 - Confirmation of Quickban
[Announcement]
(Beedrillite) 27th February 2017 - Confirmation of Quickban
[Announcement]
(Blazikenite) 3rd June 2017 - Quickbanned
[Announcement]

Other Bans.
Electrify - 3rd June 2017 - Quickbanned
[Announcement]
Shadow Tag - 22nd December 2017 - Suspected
[Suspect] [Results]

Suspects in [Gen 7] Mix and Mega
13th-28th December 2016 - Suspected - 55%
[Suspect] [Results]
9th-24th March 2017 - Suspected - 80%
[Suspect] [Results]
11th-26th April 2017 - Suspected - 77%
[Suspect] [Results]
30th May-13th June 2017 - Suspected - 64%
[Suspect] [Results]
30th August-13th September 2017 - Suspected - 82%
[Suspect] [Results]
8th-22nd December 2017 - Suspected - 62%
[Suspect] [Results]

Previous [Gen 7] Suspect Archive (Outdated)
[22nd November 2016 | Quick-ban] Zygarde-Complete was quick-banned from holding a Mega stone.
Banned prior to OverUsed tier ban and unreleased stones being disallowed.

Banning Zygarde-Complete was an easy decision. Having the greatest physical and mixed bulk in the game it would easily be capable of setting up and sweeping even prepared teams. Zygarde was already a very powerful sweeper in Mix and Mega, with access to Pixilate Extreme Speed. There is no doubt in my mind that a stat spread of 216/140/141/131/95/85 and Pixilate boosted Extreme speed in conjunction with Thousand Arrows, Coil and Dragon dance would be far to much.
[13th-28th December 2016 | Suspect Test: No Ban] Cresselia was suspect tested over the duration of two weeks.
Cresselia was suspect for its outstanding physical and special bulk coupled with a Calm mind to elevate its low special attack. However, Psychic typing leaves in vulnerable as its neither a good offensive or defensive typing. Not only is it easy to switch into, but it's not hard to set up on either. Offensive threats like Golisopod or Primal Groudon could switch in and set up right in front of it. The suspect resulted in a 55% in favour of a ban, not reaching the 60% majority necessary for a ban.
[7th January 2017 | Quick-ban] Regigigas was quick-banned from holding a Mega stone.
While the metagame had adapted nicely to other threats, like Cresselia, adapting to Regigigas was far more difficult. While it's typing leaves it wanting both offensively and defensively, and it lacks reliable recovery or boosting moves, it's positives outweigh the negatives. Regigigas was the forth most used pokemon in December with 21% usage while also using a wide array of stones such as Metagrossite, Aerdacylite, Pinsirite and Charizardite-X. It's a very unpredictable pokemon without a lot of concrete counters bar Arceus-Ghost. Having one of the highest BST in the metagame along with powerful moves made it almost impossible to switch into, while its naturally great bulk made it almost impossible to revenge kill.
[14th January 2017 | Quick-ban] Kyurem-Black was quick-banned from holding a Mega stone.
Kyurem-Black is not like any other Pokémon within the metagame. It boasts an enormous 210 Attack when using Glalitite, and when considering that in conjunction with its magnificent ability Refrigerate, it is clear to see that this Pokémon has no place in Mix and Mega. Its offensive capability solely by running Return or Frustration in tandem with Fusion Bolt, allows Kyurem-Black to possess the infamous Electric + Ice coverage known as "BoltBeam", which is known for only having three resists. Only one is borderline relevant in Mix and Mega, Red Orb Raikou; however, this can easily be defeated with the use of Earth Power. This isn't to say Kyurem-Black doesn't have checks or counters. Bulky Steel-types such as Blue Orb Scizor or Solgaleo can counter Kyurem-Black, but are otherwise usually useless and don't hold weight after a few switch-ins to a 122 BP, STAB, 570 Attack stat Return or Frustration.

While it is known to run only one Mega Stone, due to being absolutely superior - Glalitite, the potential that this alone allows is tremendous. The Ice-type is known to be one of the best offensive typings, the Attack boost provided is substantial and the Speed boost allows Kyurem-Black to reach a satiating speed tier. Due to having a base 115 Speed stat, Kyurem-Black can easily outspeed max speed base 90s, such as Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh, while not even sacrificing any Attack. It can also outspeed the majority of the "stone-less" Pokémon present within the metagame, as well as many common others. Kyurem-Black's offensive capability also allows it to be an extremely potent stallbreaker, breaking past Sablenite Cresselia and Sablenite Blissey without much effort at all. It can do this with the use of one of its recognised sets, utilising its access to Roost and Substitute and sacrificing Speed to run a bulkier spread (solely HP investment) to prevent Blissey's Seismic Toss from breaking through. It doesn't require this set to break these two defensive threats, however. These Pokémon have no chance of walling Kyurem-Black, and hence, as mentioned earlier, a bulky Steel-type is often required.

The problem that ensues due to Kyurem-Black's inclusion within the metagame, is not solely the threat it poses to defensive threats, but also the centralisation occurring within offensive playstyles. Kyurem-Black's power is unmatched by any other offensive threat. Metagrossite Kartana comes close; however, is definitely more underwhelming due to its typing and the lack of powerful attacks it possesses. Removing Kyurem-Black from the metagame should not make the stall playstyle prevalent, but rather allow stall and balance a chance to function without requiring such a solid Refrigerate check. Weavile and Genesect are still two potent Glalitite users, thus the removal of Kyurem-Black should not limit diversity, and when considering the previous point, most likely will improve the overall pool of viable Pokémon within the metagame.
[27th February 2017 | Quick-ban] Beedrillite and Mawilite were banned from being held by non-native users.
Mawilite +20 Atk / +40 Def / +40 SpD | Huge Power
Evidently, the stat increase present here isn't what makes it banworthy, it's an inferior Sablenite if solely considering that. Huge Power simply makes Mawilite overpowered in the selection of offensive stones, giving offensive presences over twice the amount of physical power, while aiding their longevity with the addition of 40 base points to each defense. Let's take a look at Pheromosa per se. At the moment it runs Lucarionite mainly, because that's its best option; however, with access to Mawilite, its power skyrockets.

Just a few, not so relevant calcs, to prove power rather than showcase how it performs against various threats.
252 Atk Huge Power Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 322-379 (79.9 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Huge Power Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ground: 415-490 (108.9 - 128.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Huge Power Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 415-489 (99 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

This is only considering one user of the stone, while more powerful slower Pokémon can take advantage of the bulk increase and be quite effective in removing threats.

Beedrillite +60 Atk / -30 SpA / +70 Spe | Adaptability
Alternatively, for slow attackers that don't have the necessary bulk to survive hits even after the increase, Beedrillite may be a more appealing option. You rid of the marvellous ability in Huge Power for a fine ability in Adaptability, hence losing some attacking power, but easily making up for it with the large increase of Speed and a still massive attacking stat. The Attack increase is already stronger than any previously existing Mega Stones, compared to Lucarionite's +35 and Adaptability, this Mega Stone is too powerful for the metagame. Consider how potent Lucarionite currently is on physical attackers, then double its stat increases. This is basically that. This isn't as overtly broken as the first stone, but it is still easily banworthy.
[24th March 2017 | Suspect Test: Ban] Dragonite was suspect tested over the duration of two weeks.
Dragonite had proven to be an extremely potent threat within the Gen 7 Mix and Mega metagame. With access to a safety net in Multiscale to aid set up, and the deadly combination of Aerilate and Extreme Speed (commonly referred to as -AteSpeed); Dragonite had proven time and time again to be arguably too powerful for the metagame. The main Mega Stone Dragonite abused was Pinsirite which allowed it to reach insane levels of Attack and obtain the wonderful ability Aerilate. Some teams had to rely on opposing -ate users like Weavile, or bulky Foul Play users such as Mandibuzz to simply check Dragonite; this however, wasn't the extent of its checks.
 
#10
Thanks for posting all of this, Grains of Salt. I'll be sure to treat my sections nicely. EDIT: Move this post and Durza's to the VR rankings specifically, since we apparently both morons.
I truly believe Arceus-Fire is A rank material.

I may be the only one who uses it, but that doesn't take away from its prowess.

Its not like it has a niche - look how many top rank threats it beats. Many different sets and EV speads make it even more unpredictable as many don't see it coming.

Undoubtedly beats Genesect, Kartana, Weavile, Golisopod, Pheromosa, Cobalion, Skarmory, Gyarados, Mamoswine, Magearna, Lucario, Deoxys-Speed, Tapu Lele, Xerneas, and more.

Can outspeed and kill Primal Groudon, and has great potential to beat Mimikyu, Manaphy, Arceus, Kyurem-Black, and others.

I will provide replays in a few hours once I get some.
We'll think about it. Personally, I also think it deserves to be on the VR, but at somewhere such as B- or C+. While it does beat the threats above (if a little inconsistently), it is also rocked by the Rock-type sweepers around town including Archeops and Tyranitar, who probably win, even if they are burned.

My personal suggestions:
-Solgaleo for at least B rank.
I did say before that Solgaleo was incredibly underrated in several places, and after using the sun lion, I can confirm it is. With both defensive and offensive sets, Solgaleo can check and/or counter several prominent threats. Chief among these are all Xerneas sets, and this is an important point to handle one of the most dominant Uber therats. Offensive sets can beat Blissey 1v1 with Z-Splash, and can take a Tough Claws Shadow Claw from Mimikyu to OHKO it, while defensive sets can handle even Regigigas and can deal more handily with Genesect. It is also notable for being a good choice for an -ate counter, despite its weakness to Ground.

-Pheromosa for A+ or S rank.
The beautiful bug is absolutely insane, and trying to play around it without priority is a massive headache. Against a good player, switching something weak in to serve to weaken the blows to your team can only make it worse; Pheromosa can easily set up a substitute with the immense pressure it causes, and if your team lacks a Ghost type, it has little to worry about behind a sub, basically guaranteeing at least 2 members of your team are going down, if not an outright sweep.
 
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#11
This thread wasn't supposed to be open yet (you can tell by the lack of reserved posts or a you may post post) but since Zephyr Dragon Lord has responded and this is kinda painful I'll be fielding this.
I truly believe Arceus-Fire is A rank material.

I may be the only one who uses it, but that doesn't take away from its prowess.

Its not like it has a niche - look how many top rank threats it beats. Many different sets and EV speads make it even more unpredictable as many don't see it coming.

Undoubtedly beats Genesect, Kartana, Weavile, Golisopod, Pheromosa, Cobalion, Skarmory, Gyarados, Mamoswine, Magearna, Lucario, Deoxys-Speed, Tapu Lele, Xerneas, and more.

Can outspeed and kill Primal Groudon, and has great potential to beat Mimikyu, Manaphy, Arceus, Kyurem-Black, and others.

I will provide replays in a few hours once I get some.
"Its not like it has a niche". I beleive this is not what you meant to type, but it's true, so lets use it anyway! Truly, arceus fire has no niche whatsoever, and will for that reason not be ranked bar a major failure on behalf of the ranking team, ie, the council.
First off, of the pokemon you listed:
-Genesect: Yes, it 1v1s, but so do many pokemon; arceus fire certainly isn't switching in, which is what you need from a genesect check. Arceus fire also prevents you from using actually good genesect checks, like Rock Arceus.
-Kartana. Fair point, but again only check not a switchin (252 Atk Aerilate Pinsirite Kartana Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Fire: 246-291 (55.4 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
-Weavile. That's two.
-Golisopod: Actually a Arceus fire check, not the reverse. Even if you run the absolutely terrible thunder, Golisopod lives after rocks (0 SpA Arceus-Fire Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blue Orb Golisopod: 170-202 (48 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock), making Golisopod a solid SSI to Arceus Fire, coming in on fire judgement or EP and forcing it out.
-Pheromosa: HJK's on the switchin, and if both are in at the same time just uturns out, or if standard check data is assumed (rocks) 252 Atk Adaptability Lucarionite Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Fire: 298-352 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Not a check.
-Cobalion. I'll grant it, but it's B-rank and not exactly an achievement.
-Skarmory. Again, you need the terrible thunder, and it doesn't exactly prevent Skarmory from doing its job, ie walling things. Maybe 1/4
-Gyarados. Once again thunder, Arceus-Fire can't switch in, and bulky gyarados wins anyway even if you hit 0 SpA Arceus-Fire Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 316-376 (80.2 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. 1/2.
-Mamoswine. B-rank, not all that amazing
-Magearna: 0 SpA Flame Plate Arceus-Fire Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Magearna: 90-108 (24.7 - 29.6%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO, try again.
-Lucario: 0 SpA Flame Plate Arceus-Fire Judgment vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Pinsirite Lucario: 181-214 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Return/EQ/CC+Espeed Koes after rocks.
-Deoxys-S. It 3hkoes, so you just let Deoxys do it's job? If deoxys gets up 3 layers of haards that's more than just a good deal.
-Tapu Lele: 252 SpA Absolite Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Fire: 232-274 (52.2 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, while lucarionite: 252 SpA Adaptability Lucarionite Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Fire: 302-356 (68 - 80.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-Xerneas. Yes, it checks, but it's this or the other sets; if you run thunder, you actually lose to geoxern, which means its an either or affair.
-Primal Groudon is a Fire Arceus check/gsi, not the reverse
-Ekiller can and will 1v1 Fire Arceus
-It doesn't 1v1 mimikyu unless disguise is broken
-It doesn't 1v1 kyub unless they run niether earth power nor roost
-Manaphy laughs at fire arceus, try again.

Looking at the VR, Arceus Fire can, with the right set, serve as an answer to 3 pokemon in the A-ranks. In exchange for this, you cannot run an actually good arceus and have to put lots of effort into team support. For goodness sake, even iceceus is better than it.

Thanks for posting all of this, Grains of Salt. I'll be sure to treat my sections nicely. EDIT: Move this post and Durza's to the VR rankings specifically, since we apparently both morons.

We'll think about it. Personally, I also think it deserves to be on the VR, but at somewhere such as B- or C+. While it does beat the threats above (if a little inconsistently), it is also rocked by the Rock-type sweepers around town including Archeops and Tyranitar, who probably win, even if they are burned.

My personal suggestions:
-Solgaleo for at least B rank.
I did say before that Solgaleo was incredibly underrated in several places, and after using the sun lion, I can confirm it is. With both defensive and offensive sets, Solgaleo can check and/or counter several prominent threats. Chief among these are all Xerneas sets, and this is an important point to handle one of the most dominant Uber therats. Offensive sets can beat Blissey 1v1 with Z-Splash, and can take a Tough Claws Shadow Claw from Mimikyu to OHKO it, while defensive sets can handle even Regigigas and can deal more handily with Genesect. It is also notable for being a good choice for an -ate conter, despite its weakness to Ground.

-Pheromosa for A+ or S rank.
The beautiful bug is absolutely insane, and trying to play around it without priority is a massive headache. Against a good player, switching something weak in to serve to weaken the blows to your team can only make it worse; Pheromosa can easily set up a substitute with the immense pressure it causes, and if your team lacks a Ghost type, it has little to worry about behind a sub, basically guaranteeing at least 2 members of your team are going down, if not an outright sweep.
No opinion on Solgaleo yet, I'll go try it.
Pheromasa for A+ is iffy; it isn't quite strong enough for what it needs. I'm willing to agree in principle, but S is definitally something I oppose; comparing it to pdon or Regigigas is a travesty.
B- or C+ rank based on that?

Based on your reasoning, arc fire would fit right in with A tier. Everything can be beaten obviously.

Out of the 10 mons that are either A+ or S rank, The rock type sweepers you mention beat at least 5 of them (Genesect (which usually runs pinsirite), Kyurem-Black, Dragonite, Weavile, and Zapdos ) and 6 including Pinsirite Regigigas which is also common.

Again, I'll get replays when I get home, but when something can eat Fairy, Ice, Grass, and Steel and beat water, flying, fire, and others with outspeeding, which are so common in the meta it deserves far more than C+ or B-.

On the note of Pheromosa, I completely agree that it is at least A rank.

Some other thoughts:
Why on earth is Zygarde-100 A rank? It's not really that good and loses a lot of HP before even becoming able to change to complete form. At least Aura Break has some use with Scarf Xern running rampant in the meta, and you get a mega evo out of that, possibly -atespeed.


Mimikyu is not worthy of A rank. It does get a free setup but its base stats arn't good enough to have the setup compensate.

keldo to K rank, for keldo SUCKs
Mimikyu is A because it destroys most current offense while not being answered by Blissey or Cresselia, two of the most common walls.

Aura Break is bad and should feel bad.
Zygarde-100 is an excellent wall that you are way underselling, taking on pokemon such as Primal Groudon, Dragonite, and Arceus-ghost with ease. moving down to A- is not unreasonable, though.
 
#12
That whole Arceus-Fire thing is why I held back on my Moltres nomination... Neither of them have been tested enough for me to be satisfied, and I would not be comfortable rating something vulnerable to Extreme Speed up there with Blissey and Zygarde.... I doubt that my results will be so peachy with it...
This thread wasn't supposed to be open yet (you can tell by the lack of reserved posts or a you may post post) but since Zephyr Dragon Lord has responded and this is kinda painful I'll be fielding this.

Looking at the VR, Arceus Fire can, with the right set, serve as an answer to 3 pokemon in the A-ranks. In exchange for this, you cannot run an actually good arceus and have to put lots of effort into team support.

No opinion on Solgaleo yet, I'll go try it.
Pheromasa for A+ is iffy; it isn't quite strong enough for what it needs. I'm willing to agree in principle, but S is definitally something I oppose; comparing it to pdon or Regigigas is a travesty.

Mimikyu is A because it destroys most current offense while not being answered by Blissey or Cresselia, two of the most common walls.

Aura Break is bad and should feel bad.
Zygarde-100 is an excellent wall that you are way underselling, taking on pokemon such as Primal Groudon, Dragonite, and Arceus-ghost with ease. moving down to A- is not unreasonable, though.
I am super glad you're trying out Solgaleo. Both of the mascots deserve time in the limelight.
I'm also going to share a few opinions...
-Pheromosa is so much scarier in practice than on paper. If Primal Groudon feels that its a good time to set up rocks on Pheromosa, it gets flatly 2HOKed, and the only way to really force out the Phero behind a sub is to use Roar, which not all of them carry. As long as it hits those High Jump Kicks, many enemy teams do feel pain. Ask some of my opponents; they know. While it might be a bit far to say it's as good as Primal Groudon... it's not quite as ridiculous as you think. It's almost like a Weavile with U-turn. It's that scary... now someone use that in sketchmons I'm not saying we do it now at all, but it is something to think about.

Since I was one of the first to use Mimikyu, I feel as though I'm compelled to add my two cents, as well. Mimikyu... gets what is essentially a free turn before it mega evolves. And it can do a TON of nonsense with that turn. Burn things, taunt things, set up, kill a weakened threat.... the list just goes on. It's a versatile physical threat, and one that has to be taken seriously. And it's faster than Arceus when it mega evolves, which is a big deal.

Zygarde is less a case of 100% Zygarde being overrated (it isn't) rather than 50% Zygarde being underrated. In my eyes, it is a step ahead of both Entei and Arcanine, having access to two scary setup moves along with Thousand Arrows and Thousand Waves, both terrifying moves that make its life much easier in different situations. And it doesn't have to worry about Pixispeed quite yet (though I doubt it will even care so much; it is a big threat regardless of the opposing -ate speed thanks to Dragon Dance) Sleeping on Pinsirite Zygarde is a huge mistake, and one that costs matches.

...Speaking of sleeping, where's Suicune on the VR? Sablenite Suicune should be up there, given that it's basically water Cresselia lite. And Suicune never minded using Rest in the first place; why would it stop now...? Also, it learns Roar, which is incredibly helpful in stopping some threats...

Also, I'm nominating Garchomp to fall a rank to B-. I haven't seen it too much, and it just strikes me as something with a bit underwhelming for what it does. Correct me if I'm wrong on this...
We should start a conversation on where Deoxys-Attack lies, as well. I feel that it might have a place here as something that just smashes opposing threats, much like Hoopa-U. I'm not sure how much that truly middling bulk holds it back.
 
#13
That whole Arceus-Fire thing is why I held back on my Moltres nomination... Neither of them have been tested enough for me to be satisfied, and I would not be comfortable rating something vulnerable to Extreme Speed up there with Blissey and Zygarde.... I doubt that my results will be so peachy with it...


I am super glad you're trying out Solgaleo. Both of the mascots deserve time in the limelight.
I'm also going to share a few opinions...
-Pheromosa is so much scarier in practice than on paper. If Primal Groudon feels that its a good time to set up rocks on Pheromosa, it gets flatly 2HOKed, and the only way to really force out the Phero behind a sub is to use Roar, which not all of them carry. As long as it hits those High Jump Kicks, many enemy teams do feel pain. Ask some of my opponents; they know. While it might be a bit far to say it's as good as Primal Groudon... it's not quite as ridiculous as you think. It's almost like a Weavile with U-turn. It's that scary... now someone use that in sketchmons I'm not saying we do it now at all, but it is something to think about.

Since I was one of the first to use Mimikyu, I feel as though I'm compelled to add my two cents, as well. Mimikyu... gets what is essentially a free turn before it mega evolves. And it can do a TON of nonsense with that turn. Burn things, taunt things, set up, kill a weakened threat.... the list just goes on. It's a versatile physical threat, and one that has to be taken seriously. And it's faster than Arceus when it mega evolves, which is a big deal.

Zygarde is less a case of 100% Zygarde being overrated (it isn't) rather than 50% Zygarde being underrated. In my eyes, it is a step ahead of both Entei and Arcanine, having access to two scary setup moves along with Thousand Arrows and Thousand Waves, both terrifying moves that make its life much easier in different situations. And it doesn't have to worry about Pixispeed quite yet (though I doubt it will even care so much; it is a big threat regardless of the opposing -ate speed thanks to Dragon Dance) Sleeping on Pinsirite Zygarde is a huge mistake, and one that costs matches.

...Speaking of sleeping, where's Suicune on the VR? Sablenite Suicune should be up there, given that it's basically water Cresselia lite. And Suicune never minded using Rest in the first place; why would it stop now...? Also, it learns Roar, which is incredibly helpful in stopping some threats...

Also, I'm nominating Garchomp to fall a rank to B-. I haven't seen it too much, and it just strikes me as something with a bit underwhelming for what it does. Correct me if I'm wrong on this...
We should start a conversation on where Deoxys-Attack lies, as well. I feel that it might have a place here as something that just smashes opposing threats, much like Hoopa-U. I'm not sure how much that truly middling bulk holds it back.
How effective is suicune when you've used it? I know Racool has a team with it, and it puts in work, but is it more of a B rank, or how would you categorize it? That seems like a good place to start, at least.

Garchomp is primarily a Primal Groudon Check, Stealth Rocker, and <Pokémon that outspeeds Manaphy/Regigigas>. Despite this, it's only decent in practice, and is definitally one of the lower B-rank Pokémon. I think that it moving down is not unwarranted, but perhaps somewhat hasty.
I haven't found occasion to use deoxys-attack, so I'm not exactly qualified to comment.
Uh, you're wrong and you know it.

You're calcs are always either run with 0 SpA or 0 SpD. Which is it? I run max SpA and if you redo those calcs then numbers actually matter.

I also never suggested it to switch into a water type obviously, thats silly. If a water type switches into it then I'm saying it can beat it.

-Genesect:
You admit it beats it.
-Kartana.
To be fair I've never seen Pinsirite Kartana in my life save a small few.
Some relevant calcs:
252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fire: 63-75 (14.1 - 16.8%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fire: 81-96 (18.2 - 21.6%) -- possible 5HKO
-Weavile. Three at the moment.
-Golisopod:
252+ SpA Arceus-Fire Thunder vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Blue Orb Golisopod: 184-218 (63.2 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
For god's sake, I wasn't saying switch into this. Either a switch in taking an Earth Power, running Espeed, or even a single layer of spikes will do the trick.
-Pheromosa: Your reasoning is based on the premise that it just switches out if it sees it. All I said is it beats it, which 1v1 it does. Again, I don't say switch into it.
-Cobalion. Throw in Klingklang if it makes you happy too.
-Skarmory.
Uh, wrong. I've had so many Skarms switch into a thunder I can't get over it. Regardless, it still 2HKOs.
-Gyarados.
252+ SpA Arceus-Fire Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gyarados: 360-424 (91.3 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
cut the shit, max bulk Gyrados which is never run can't handle a Thunder.
-Mamoswine.
Still Viable
-Magearna:
I'll give you this one only on Thick Fat Mag, but you know good and well you see pinsirite far more. and Magearna can't touch arc-fire with any moves.
-Lucario:
252+ SpA Flame Plate Arceus-Fire Judgment vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Pinsirite Lucario: 265-313 (94.3 - 111.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock not even factoring pinsirite rock weakness.


I'm tired and don't feel like doing the rest, which admittedly are situational and Arc cannot beat them sometimes. Regardless, your calcs were irrelevant, and tell me if any other Arc with the exception of Ghosteus is that useful.
My apologies, I attempted to salvage something from your suggestion fo Arceus-Fire, but I didn't realize the actual set would be this bad. I think I said this before, but I'll make it clear now. Arceus-Fire is bad and unviable; it will not be ranked without major metagame changes.
With Modest Fireceus, Genesect KOes after rocks with a Download boost, so you don't check that.
Golisopod still checks even with max SPA thunder, because guess what: 252+ Atk Blue Orb Golisopod Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Fire in Heavy Rain: 492-578 (129.1 - 151.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Adaptability Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Fire: 298-352 (78.2 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock Sorry no check.
Gyarados relies on thunder hitting, which isn't totally unreasonable but isn't something you want to rely on. However, max SPA thunder does win.
Pinsirite boosts special defense, so the calc looks like this: 252+ SpA Flame Plate Arceus-Fire Judgment vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 220-261 (78.2 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

When looking at viability, you have to consider what the Pokémon actually does for the team. In the case of Arceus-Fire, it takes your Arceus slot, which prevents the use of ghost, rock, water, ground, and normal Arceus, lets you check maybe 6 relevant mons (none of whom are particularly difficult to answer) and be really weak to common threats like Primal Groudon and Golisopod that you have to support with teambuilding. It isn't a good defogger, it doesn't set rocks well, it doesn't really lure well and when it does it does nothing exceptional. It has far too many checks to try to sweep--or even break holes in--teams, and it is setup bait for Pokémon you really cannot allow to set up such as Dragonite.

Until something changes, please consider this matter closed; let the discussion move towards Pokémon that are actually usable in the metagame.
 
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#14
How effective is suicune when you've used it? I know Racool has a team with it, and it puts in work, but is it more of a B rank, or how would you categorize it? That seems like a good place to start, at least.

Garchomp is primarily a Primal Groudon Check, Stealth Rocker, and <Pokémon that outspeeds Manaphy/Regigigas>. Despite this, it's only decent in practice, and is definitally one of the lower B-rank Pokémon. I think that it moving down is not unwarranted, but perhaps somewhat hasty.
I haven't found occasion to use deoxys-attack, so I'm not exactly qualified to comment.
To me, Suicune's a B or maybe a B+. It's incredibly good at stall wars, and if it manages to burn something, it can easily use that as setup fodder. Pretty much everything has trouble with Suicune when it has enough Calm Mind boosts, and it has the ability to blanket switch into tons of threats. Even Gyaradosite mons take a while to break Suicune.
Though there is a few downsides. It does take a while to deal good damage, just like regular Suicune (faster than Cress, however). Sleep Talk is a bit of a liability since it needs that extra coverage. Primal Groudon also beats it 1v1. Nonetheless, Suicune can serve as a great part of a defensive backbone, and is nice for the team to lean on, anyways. It also wrecks new people at a dime a dozen.

Thanks for the Garchomp input. I always thought its Aggronite set was the best, but it's fine to have another opinion. Good to see waht those roles actually ar. We'll wait, then.

Deoxys-Attack is purely a reaction to someone getting 88 GXE with it. I have never used it either...perhaps it is at home with Tapu Lele support?

Also, note these down for the future. They're super important when we get all the mega stones. I tested them on ROM, and I have some results...

Nihilego: As I thought, Latiasite is good. What I DIDN'T expect is that it 1v1s Primal freaking Groudon, even if it has Stone Edge. Of course, you'll need fair a bit of defensive investment, but still. Take that in for a second. Now take in what else now can't hit it well. Can you see why Nihilego is incredibly antimeta? This will end up either as a B or a B+. Maybe even higher if I am further underestimating this jelly parasite.

Xurkitree: OH GOD. Audinite and Pidgeotite both turn Xurkitree into a compete monster. Audinite turns it into a balance breaker, giving it actual decent bulk and a typing that is incredibly awkward for some common threats to break, giving it time to set up a Tail Glow, and then proceed to bust holes in the opposing team. It needs some speed to creep Primal Groudon, however. Super important. Pidgeotite, on the other hand, has pure, raw power, allowing it to break ANY wall. Zap Cannon from over 200 base Special attack with the ability to boost is terrifying, and if either has Sticky Webs up on the opposing side... GOOD NIGHT. Easily an A rank, if not A+ when the stones get released.
 
#15
I think I am the only (or at least one of the few) person who has used suicune in mnm high ladder/against good opponents, and here is my personal opinion: B/B+
Positives:
It has insane bulk and great defenses, only boosted by sablenite, making it really tough to take down. Furthermore, and actually the main reason I use suicune in one of my teams is that its a very very good check to both golis and weavile (so long as neither are boosting sets). Weavile does basically nothing to suicune, and if scald burns, then essentially weavile is no longer a problem. As for golis, well so long as it isnt a boosting set, scald should beat it (doing even more damage to golis cos of the rain). That particular team i was using was really weak to glalitite and golis, hence the need for a check: suicune. Due to how common these 2 mons are in mnm, i would personally place suicune at B, if not B+.

Negatives: There is one obvious flaw with suicune, and that is quite simple unreliable recovery in rest. some form of recovery is a must for any good sablenite mon, and the best ones have much more reliable recovery than rest, such as softboiled, moonlight etc. Rest forces you to run sleep talk, which reduces coverage. The other option is to not run sleep talk, and become set up bait for 3 turns.

Overall, suicune can be very good in certain matchups, but lacks effective recovery to be considered a top tier threat. However, when balanced in the right team, it can do serious work.

Now another point I would like to raise is that Arceus rock is actually amazing, and imo deserves at least B+ if not A. Pinsirite/salamencite mons are so common, and arceus rock just reks them. The set i run is: calm mind, judgement, willow wisp, and recover, with investment into hp, defense and special defense (also running stone plate). Quite frankly, anything from dnite, to noivern, to entei, to archeops, just loses to this set. Furthermore, its much more than a pinsirite check. For example it can 1v1 Golis cos of wow! (so long as it has 70% health or above). It beats regigigas, zapdos, and if at 80% health or above, it takes weavile out. These are incidentally all top tier threats.

Perhaps im being partial to it cos ive used it so much, but personally i fell like its being underrated here.
 
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#16
I think I am the only (or at least one of the few) person who has used suicune in mnm high ladder/against good opponents, and here is my verdict: B/B+
Positives:
It has insane bulk and great defenses, only boosted by sablenite, making it really tough to take down. Furthermore, and actually the main reason I use suicune in one of my teams is that its a very very good check to both golis and weavile (so long as neither are boosting sets). Weavile does basically nothing to suicune, and if scald burns, then essentially weavile is no longer a problem. As for golis, well so long as it isnt a boosting set, scald should beat it (doing even more damage to golis cos of the rain). That particular team i was using was really weak to glalitite and golis, hence the need for a check: suicune. Due to how common these 2 mons are in mnm, i would personally place suicune at B, if not B+.

Negatives: There is one obvious flaw with suicune, and that is quite simple unreliable recovery in rest. some form of recovery is a must for any good sablenite mon, and the best ones have much more reliable recovery than rest, such as softboiled, moonlight etc. Rest forces you to run sleep talk, which reduces coverage. The other option is to not run sleep talk, and become set up bait for 3 turns.

Overall, suicune can be very good in certain matchups, but lacks effective recovery to be considered a top tier threat. However, when balanced in the right team, it can do serious work.

Now another point I would like to raise is that Arceus rock is actually amazing, and imo deserves at least B+ if not A. Pinsirite/salamencite mons are so common, and arceus rock just reks them. The set i run is: calm mind, judgement, willow wisp, and recover, with investment into hp, defense and special defense (also running stone plate). Quite frankly, anything from dnite, to noivern, to entei, to archeops, just loses to this set. Furthermore, its much more than a pinsirite check. For example it can 1v1 Golis cos of wow! (so long as it has 70% health or above). It beats regigigas, zapdos, and if at 80% health or above, it takes weavile out. These are incidentally all top tier threats.

Perhaps im being partial to it cos ive used it so much, but personally i fell like its being underrated here.
The biggest problem I've found with Suicune(And most other water types) is the inability to threaten Primal Groudon(Red orb) out, not reliable recovery. Primal Groudon is so common giving it a free switch in is huge.

I agree with the Arceus-Rock rank, but LaxLapras is more experienced with him than me so perhaps he could chime in? You already said most of the relevant points.
 
#17
yeah p-don is a problem. On my suicune i run toxic instead of stalk, which beats pdon (so long as its not a boosting don) but basically ruins recovery. its basically 1 or the other between pdon but no stalk, or stalk but free pdon switch. There are simply many better sab mons.
 
#18
yeah p-don is a problem. On my suicune i run toxic instead of stalk, which beats pdon (so long as its not a boosting don) but basically ruins recovery. its basically 1 or the other between pdon but no stalk, or stalk but free pdon switch. There are simply many better sab mons.
It seems that we agree about Suicune's viability, but not its exact moveset... For me, it's a toss up between Toxic and Ice Beam/Air Slash. Basically, a question of how much you want to smack Primal Groudon around. Ice Beam does not help you beat Primal Groudon one on one, but it helps a ton with the dragons in Mix and Mega, along with some Pinsirite users.

There might be a few better Sablenite users, but you would be hard-pressed to find one that's Water type. The only one I can think of that might do the trick is Slowbro... who might be able to beat Primal Groudon 1v1.

Agreed on Arceus-Rock, but Arceus-Electric should also deserve a mention as well for being similarly good. It serves a similar purpose to Arceus-Rock in being an -ate check, only it serves as an offensive one rather than a defensive one, thanks to having the coveted boltbeam coverage, with one part being STAB. It also has a better time against Water types, and uses most of them as set-up fodder, or as a chance for supporting the team.
 

Laxpras

Trust The Process
is a Pre-Contributor
#19
To make it simple, Arceus-Rock's viability is directly correlated to the prevalence of Aerilate in the meta; and right now that prevalence is quite high.
Rockceus is one of the most reliable -Ate checks, and performs wonderfully in support roles while still hitting quite hard with a coveted strong special Rock type move. With Will-o-Wisp, Defog, Recover, essentially any coverage move you want, in addition to the opportunity to set up with Calm Mind, I would see Rockceus in the A- or A spot.
If -Ate spam becomes less common, however, Rockceus should drop, as its main role is less necessary.
 
#20
In terms of water types, imo no doubt that suicune is the best sablenite mon. In terms of moveset, i prefer toxic as its the only really viable way of beating pdon (again providing its not a boosting pdon). As for dealing with pinsirite mons, I usually swap into rockceus, (or any other check on my team), but scald is useful as well due to scumbag burns. However this is just preference, and overall it seems we are all agreed on suicune's place in the VR.

As for Rockceus, we also seem agreed that it should be around A-. If it were purely me making the VR, i would put rockceus at A as I have found it to be a perfect aerilate check in a meta that is swarmed with pinsirite and salamencite (this due to the lack of altarianite), while also being able to 1v1 highly threatening mons as listed above. I would agree that arceus-electric theoretically fulfills the same purpose, however I havent played with it and therefore I wouldn't be a good judge of its viability. Also Lax, I don't see Ate-spam in general becoming less common any time soon. Quite a few mstones would have to be released (especially altarianite) in order for pinsirite and salamencite usage to significantly decrease.
 
#22
InfernapeTropius11 and Zephyr Dragon Lord I'm pretty sure Mimikyu is not a check to Regigigas. Not sure why you would think that but I think you should take it off (if you decided it isn't) because it could create some minor confusion (since Regi is pretty broken and hard to counter). Thanks :)
It's a check, but not a true counter, as Regigigas can simply Iron Head it. Though if you are using Will-o-Wisp Mimikyu as my team does, a burned Regigigas is much easier to deal with, and takes much less from its coverage.

...Doesn't mean that will remain relevant for much longer, however. We're going to be revamping the resources page in general. We've just been concerned about the balance of Mix and Mega currently.
 
#23
I think Regigigas should either be quick-banned or suspected, and I'll explain why in this post.

Oh yeah, and let me just point out Regi’s moveset before I start:

Metagrossite: Normal STAB, Drain Punch/Superpower, Earthquake/Fire Punch, Ice Punch/Stone Edge/Thunder Punch

Aerodactylite: Normal STAB, Drain Punch/Superpower, Fire Punch/Knock Off, Thunder Punch/Ice Punch

Pinsirite: Flying STAB (which is “Normal STAB), Drain Punch/Superpower, Earthquake/Fire Punch, Ice Punch/Stone Edge

other niche moves: Knock Off for Ghostceus and other ghost types; Iron Head for Mimikyu


So many people say “Oh well, Regigigas has a good amount of checks and quite decent counters. That I will not argue. Indeed it is true that pokemon like Arceus-Ghost, Primal-Groudon (etc.) can successfully check and punish Regigigas. However, we must consider one has teammates. Successful switches and hazard stacking can wear down the aforementioned pokemon, as well as a few others --- mainly because many “stallish“ pokemon can be beat by its immense coverage. A counter argument to this may be two things: 1. Regigigas can be worn down via hazards; and 2. You can run hazard removal so that Regigigas’s checks will not get worn down. For #1, it is probably the only viable counter argument for not banning Regigigas. However, Regigigas’s speed is quite fast with Metagrossite/Aerodactylite/Pinsirite [140/120/120 respectively], and so usually it can still do a decent job at wall-breaking and forcing switches. For #2, I do not think hazard removal is a viable counter argument. In fact, I’m pretty sure no pokemon learns Defog and successfully walls Regigigas except for the different Arceus forms (Skarmory can get beat by Thunder Punch). Regigigas can keep the pressure up, and do its job wonderfully by constantly forcing switches and denting holes in the opposing team. Here I have explained counter argument I constantly see, and hopefully persuaded you that Regi’s flaws are not actually that bad.

Now I will explain why I think Regigigas should be banned. First of all, Regigigas’s stats are exceptional. With a starting whopping 160 attack, 110/110/110 defenses, and a decent 100 speed, Regigigas has a good start for when it mega-evolves. It has its terrible ability removed, and gets a better one over it. This is why in generation six it was banned, and even with the addition of different ghost types, it should be banned once again. Like I said, most of the checks can be worn down. Another reason I think Regigigas should be banned is because it is versatile --- enough to the point where its coverage beats many offensive and defensive pokemon. It can run three different stones very well, and each stone does a different thing. Regigigas’s teammates usually include a hazard setter, a pivot, and two nukes. That is because of its versatility and ability to force switches.

Combine that with immense overcentralization. While you may not know it, most people have more than one check/counter to Regigigas. Why is that so? I think that is because it is very (maybe too) good and most people feel the need to doubly or triply check it. Regigigas’s usage rate is ranked #4, but it is harder to check than some of the other pokemon that have more usage than it. Now this could go either way on the opinion, as a person who thinks “do not ban” might imply that the reason alot of people use so many checks to Regigigas is because Regigigas is easily checkable. That might be the case, but let’s take a deeper look into the checks to Regigigas:


(note: this data is from the sample teams of 8 teams) (also note a check is a 3hko+ from Metagrossite [the weakest])


Primal Groudon: 7 --- 252+ Atk Tough Claws Regigigas Return vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 193-228 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO (not even)
252+ Atk Regigigas Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 194-230 (48.1 - 57%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO

Arceus-Ghost: 2 --- 252+ Atk Tough Claws Regigigas Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ghost: 123-145 (32.2 - 38%) -- 96.1% chance to 3HKO

Cresselia: 2 --- 252+ Atk Tough Claws Regigigas Return vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 144-169 (32.6 - 38.3%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO

Offensive:

Pheromosa: 4 [one shots Regigigas]

note: you may find other viable checks/counters, but they most likely aren't that good


As you can see, only Arceus-Ghost and Cresselia are really hard counters. However Ghostceus usually does not run recovery, and Regi teams always have something for Cress. It just shows how many checks there really are to Regigigas (like five excluding Arceus formes) and gives a good idea on how overcentralizing it is.


As you might now know, Regigigas is broken and overcentralizing, and it requires little skill to use. I hope at least we can have a suspect on this Grains of Salt
 
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#25
We have banned Regigigas... thankfully. (With much clumsiness from me. I'll be better about it next time)

There's an explanation for the ban from all of the council in the main thread. We can certainly add this to them, if needed.

So this isn't just an empty post of agreement, the Checks Compendium is now being constructed. We won't be left with that bit of empty space for much longer! (I'll make more VR suggestions when that is completed, as well)

EDIT: nv? Is Glalite supposed to give +10 Special Defense? That should probably be fixed for accuracy...
 
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