wait a second.
Just ban Gothitelle, please (or don't, whatever). I really want to make Wobbuffet work
Just ban Gothitelle, please (or don't, whatever). I really want to make Wobbuffet work
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M&M Mix and Mega
- Thread starter xavgb
- Start date
Yes, that's my bad; I meant answer for lunala, as goth just generally wants to do something vs offense, and didnt do my due diligence in proofreading. Thanks for the catch, I've edited it now.
Two weeks. Two weeks until the release of US/UM, showing the closure of the SM meta. Whilst it may be too early to tell what US/UM might give us, I have decided to post a few cores that have done me very well in this metagame. I will be posting these cores randomly throughout the next two weeks, so keep an eye out!
Defensive Core: Sablenite Magearna + Venusaurite Hippowdon
This is probably one of my all time favourite cores to use, and it’s partly due to how underrated Hippowdon is in the current metagame. Hippowdon, with a Venusaurite stone, can very happily take on Red Orb attackers such as Groudon-Primal and Raikou without a sweat due to:
a) An extremely high defense stat, combined with a usable Special Defense stat, allowing it to take Precipice Blades and other strong attacks, being one of the few Pokemon to take a V-create from Red Orb Victini (however, max SpA Modest Victini can break Hippowdon with Blue Flare)
b) The Venusaurite stone, which in my opinion, is the primary stone for Hippowdon to use. This gives Hippowdon great role compression versus Pokemon like Entei, and Toxic can wear down Pinsirite Entei and Ho-oh.
However – this core is not complete without what I find is the easiest Pokemon to splash on a team in Mix and Mega, and that Pokemon is Magearna. Whilst it is not extremely good, alike metagame titans such as Groudon-Primal and Zygarde, Sablenite variants of Magearna are extremely difficult for most special attackers to get past, such as Tapu Lele, Deoxys-Speed, Choice Specs Lunala… whilst the list is finite, it does include far more than you would think. Even Zygarde can have troubles getting past Magearna, whilst it can easily OHKO Altarianite variants with a Fleur Cannon.
(0 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Pinsirite Zygarde: 354-416 (87.4 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO)
However, this core is not without problems. Here is a list of what heavily threatens the core:
Blue Orb Attackers (Golisopod, Kyogre-Primal):
Due to this core being rather focussed on Red Orb attackers, Pokemon such as Golisopod and Kyogre-Primal can happily set up in front of both Pokemon and unleash their monstrously powerful rain boosted Water-STAB. Whilst not a Blue Orb user, Calm Mind Keldeo also heavily threatens the team as it can take a Fleur Cannon from Magearna and win in a switch-in situation.
Solutions to this problem:
Red Orb Pokemon such as Togekiss and Victini pair super well with this core, as they can happily switch into the water-type attackers that trouble this core.
Red Orb Togekiss:
Where as Hippowdon is expected to check most Red Orb attackers, Togekiss has access to Nasty Plot, meaning it can abuse Hippowdon’s mediocre Special Defense and take it out.
Solutions to this problem:
Due to Togekiss’ huge power, it is very difficult to find outright counters for its attacks. However, Ho-oh strikes as one of the better partners for the team, especially on the more offensive variant, as its extremely high SpDef and unique typing allow it to tank a hit and fire back a STAB Brave Bird, at worst 2HKOing Togekiss.
Kartana:
Whilst Kartana may be checked by Magearna if it hasn’t set up, it easily defeats Magearna on the switchin – doing the same to Hippowdon and using it as set-up bait.
Solutions to this problem:
Yet again, Red Orb attackers and Ho-oh pair well with this core. However, most of them are hit hard or outright KO’d by Return after a Swords Dance, making Kartana an extremely difficult Pokemon for this core to deal with. As a result, it is also advisable to use a high speed revenge killer such as Diancite Terrakion with this core.
Variants:
This core does have a variant, which replaces Magearna’s set, shown in the importable, which turns this core into a more balance based playstyle. However, not only does it make Magearna a lot more offensively threatening, it turns the core into what I think it one of the best stallbreaking cores out there. CM Split Cameruptite Magearna is incredibly difficult to take down for defensive teams, and it is also very difficult to stall out at the same time. As such, some teams depend on Shedinja to deal with it. Whilst this is usually good enough, Hippowdon completely invalidates any Shedinja which tries to stay in barring Safety Goggle variants, making it difficult to win versus Magearna without a dedicated answer – Red Orb users are great answers, and Groudon-Primal on semi-stall can be a massive problem for it.
There are also a few more threats for this core, such as…
Choice Specs/CM variants of Lunala:
Lunala becomes a massive threat to this team if you decide to forgo the more defensive Magearna spread, 2HKOing Magearna, the previous switchin. As such, it is advisable to search for defensive answers – Ho-oh is one of them, however, non-defensive variants are 2HKO’d by Psyshock, so watch out for that.
Geomancy Xerneas:
This is why this variant is somewhat distracting to people – whilst Zeomancy Xerneas isn’t too tough for Magearna to beat, Geomancy Variants (which hit their more inaccurate coverage moves) are able to 2HKO Magearna even after it Calm Minds up. Even then – all Xerneas needs is some damage on Magearna and it’s all over if you’re depending on it. Ho-oh, yet again, is another brilliant partner, alongside some bulkier Red Orb users able to resist Focus Blast.
Ahead of time, Core 2 is Groudon-Primal + Toxapex – expect to see a few PDon sets paired with this monster.
Defensive Core: Sablenite Magearna + Venusaurite Hippowdon
Hippowdon @ Venusaurite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 192 Def / 64 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Whirlwind
- Slack Off
- Toxic / Stealth Rock
Magearna @ Sablenite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Fleur Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Pain Split
- Heart Swap
Magearna @ Cameruptite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon / Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Calm Mind
- Pain Split
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 192 Def / 64 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Whirlwind
- Slack Off
- Toxic / Stealth Rock
Magearna @ Sablenite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Fleur Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Pain Split
- Heart Swap
Magearna @ Cameruptite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon / Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Calm Mind
- Pain Split
This is probably one of my all time favourite cores to use, and it’s partly due to how underrated Hippowdon is in the current metagame. Hippowdon, with a Venusaurite stone, can very happily take on Red Orb attackers such as Groudon-Primal and Raikou without a sweat due to:
a) An extremely high defense stat, combined with a usable Special Defense stat, allowing it to take Precipice Blades and other strong attacks, being one of the few Pokemon to take a V-create from Red Orb Victini (however, max SpA Modest Victini can break Hippowdon with Blue Flare)
b) The Venusaurite stone, which in my opinion, is the primary stone for Hippowdon to use. This gives Hippowdon great role compression versus Pokemon like Entei, and Toxic can wear down Pinsirite Entei and Ho-oh.
However – this core is not complete without what I find is the easiest Pokemon to splash on a team in Mix and Mega, and that Pokemon is Magearna. Whilst it is not extremely good, alike metagame titans such as Groudon-Primal and Zygarde, Sablenite variants of Magearna are extremely difficult for most special attackers to get past, such as Tapu Lele, Deoxys-Speed, Choice Specs Lunala… whilst the list is finite, it does include far more than you would think. Even Zygarde can have troubles getting past Magearna, whilst it can easily OHKO Altarianite variants with a Fleur Cannon.
(0 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Pinsirite Zygarde: 354-416 (87.4 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO)
However, this core is not without problems. Here is a list of what heavily threatens the core:
Blue Orb Attackers (Golisopod, Kyogre-Primal):
Due to this core being rather focussed on Red Orb attackers, Pokemon such as Golisopod and Kyogre-Primal can happily set up in front of both Pokemon and unleash their monstrously powerful rain boosted Water-STAB. Whilst not a Blue Orb user, Calm Mind Keldeo also heavily threatens the team as it can take a Fleur Cannon from Magearna and win in a switch-in situation.
Solutions to this problem:
Red Orb Pokemon such as Togekiss and Victini pair super well with this core, as they can happily switch into the water-type attackers that trouble this core.
Red Orb Togekiss:
Where as Hippowdon is expected to check most Red Orb attackers, Togekiss has access to Nasty Plot, meaning it can abuse Hippowdon’s mediocre Special Defense and take it out.
Solutions to this problem:
Due to Togekiss’ huge power, it is very difficult to find outright counters for its attacks. However, Ho-oh strikes as one of the better partners for the team, especially on the more offensive variant, as its extremely high SpDef and unique typing allow it to tank a hit and fire back a STAB Brave Bird, at worst 2HKOing Togekiss.
Kartana:
Whilst Kartana may be checked by Magearna if it hasn’t set up, it easily defeats Magearna on the switchin – doing the same to Hippowdon and using it as set-up bait.
Solutions to this problem:
Yet again, Red Orb attackers and Ho-oh pair well with this core. However, most of them are hit hard or outright KO’d by Return after a Swords Dance, making Kartana an extremely difficult Pokemon for this core to deal with. As a result, it is also advisable to use a high speed revenge killer such as Diancite Terrakion with this core.
Variants:
This core does have a variant, which replaces Magearna’s set, shown in the importable, which turns this core into a more balance based playstyle. However, not only does it make Magearna a lot more offensively threatening, it turns the core into what I think it one of the best stallbreaking cores out there. CM Split Cameruptite Magearna is incredibly difficult to take down for defensive teams, and it is also very difficult to stall out at the same time. As such, some teams depend on Shedinja to deal with it. Whilst this is usually good enough, Hippowdon completely invalidates any Shedinja which tries to stay in barring Safety Goggle variants, making it difficult to win versus Magearna without a dedicated answer – Red Orb users are great answers, and Groudon-Primal on semi-stall can be a massive problem for it.
There are also a few more threats for this core, such as…
Choice Specs/CM variants of Lunala:
Lunala becomes a massive threat to this team if you decide to forgo the more defensive Magearna spread, 2HKOing Magearna, the previous switchin. As such, it is advisable to search for defensive answers – Ho-oh is one of them, however, non-defensive variants are 2HKO’d by Psyshock, so watch out for that.
Geomancy Xerneas:
This is why this variant is somewhat distracting to people – whilst Zeomancy Xerneas isn’t too tough for Magearna to beat, Geomancy Variants (which hit their more inaccurate coverage moves) are able to 2HKO Magearna even after it Calm Minds up. Even then – all Xerneas needs is some damage on Magearna and it’s all over if you’re depending on it. Ho-oh, yet again, is another brilliant partner, alongside some bulkier Red Orb users able to resist Focus Blast.
Ahead of time, Core 2 is Groudon-Primal + Toxapex – expect to see a few PDon sets paired with this monster.
the link to Chazm's sample team is broken
These samples are like a year old and extremely outdated, we really need to fix that.
I'll be asking for sample team submissions shortly following the release of USUM, as there's no point updating now in case there is some major metagame change with the introduction of the new content. I don't expect any major changes but it doesn't hurt to wait two weeks just to be certain.
USUM SPOILERS
By holding Ultranecrozmium Z, Dawn Wings Necrozma or Dusk Mane Necrozma can transform into Ultra Necrozma. A button saying "Ultra Burst" will be in the same place as the Z move or mega evo button, and pressing it while selecting any move will turn Necrozma into ultra Necrozma, in a matter pretty much identical to mega evolution. On the following turn, you can choose wether to use a Z move or not. This mechanic obviously has the potential to be introduced in Mix and Mega, with the z crystal acting as the stone. Since primal reversion is a thing, there is precedent for adding mechanics that are similar but not identical to Mega Evolution.
However, one big problem is that Ultra Necrozma has TWO base forms with different stats, meaning there would be two different sets of stat changes for the Z crystal.
+10 Atk / -30 Def / +54 Spa / -12 Spd / +52 Spe for Dusk Mane
+54 Atk / -12 Def / +10 Spa / -30 Def / +52 Spe for Dawn Wings
However, a solution for this could be to have non shiny pokemon gain the DM stat boosts, while a shiny one would gain DW's ones. You could also just not implement it but considering that this is more similar to mega evo than primal reversion is, that seems like a shame.
However, one big problem is that Ultra Necrozma has TWO base forms with different stats, meaning there would be two different sets of stat changes for the Z crystal.
+10 Atk / -30 Def / +54 Spa / -12 Spd / +52 Spe for Dusk Mane
+54 Atk / -12 Def / +10 Spa / -30 Def / +52 Spe for Dawn Wings
However, a solution for this could be to have non shiny pokemon gain the DM stat boosts, while a shiny one would gain DW's ones. You could also just not implement it but considering that this is more similar to mega evo than primal reversion is, that seems like a shame.
Why not?
It happens from two different Necrozma formes so it's impossible to determine the stat boost.
I put forward a possible solution in my previous post.
I am not adding an entirely new mechanic for you to use one thing that barely resembles Mega Evolution. That is a horrible idea, I'm sorry.
Ultra Burst does not "barely resemble" mega evolution, it is identical in almost every way. The difference is that you use a Z crystal instead of a stone (which doesn't matter since the things that can use the corresponding Z move will likely be banned from holding stones), and that the stat boost is not 100 (just like gen 6 mega Alakazam). It is more similar to Mega Evolution than Primal Reversion is.
You're missing the point of what I was saying, I should have clarified better sorry.
I'm not adding a new mechanic for one forme change method/one Pokémon. This metagame is already complex enough for new players, it already has the most mechanics of any OM, it's already the most complex permanent ladder format by far. By adding this shininess concept you have suggested, not only does it not abide by the standards in which we hold metagames, since this is a very specific rule but it also doesn't make any sense whatsoever. It would make more sense to include Griseous Orb than Ultranecrozium Z.
Anyway this stops here. We've had enough back and forth discussion on this issue. If you still believe that it should be implemented and Mix and Mega should become a pet mod, then by all means contact me on PS or Discord and we can discuss it there.
A new set I've seen a bit now is Pidgeotite Genesect. Maybe it's an old set and I haven't encountered it, but I've been playing for all of gen 7 now and that's unlikely. I didn't give it a lot of attention until recently when the guy who was using it came out of nowhere and is now #1. With Zap Cannon and Blizzard it doesn't have a lot of answers, as it's basically the ultimate Bolt Beamer.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-658086692 Gonna warn you lot quickly, Deoxys-Attack is currently allowed to Mega Evolve
fixed, the server will be updated soon
While I don't use Smogon as a forum often, I've been happily playing Mix and Mega ever since Gen 6, and seeing its permanent spot in Gen 7 has led to a lot of fun.
Since USUM are coming out soon, and may or may not shake the meta in some way, I'd just like to show my respect for this meta's community while I'm still actively playing.
Some of the most fun I've had with playing MnM has been using unconventional checks to the strongest Pokemon. It's not always viable, but the ability to be so creative with strategies has led to easily the most fun in Gen 7 I've had compared to how stale Gen 7 OU and VGC '17 became to me.
Easily one of the most consistent Pokemon I've seen while playing (that wasn't banned later) is Kartana. Kartana's frailty causes it to not become too powerful, but at the same time, it with Metagrossite and Diancite have led to overwhelming power and speed. It's probably not the best set (heck, I've been on and off playing Pokemon in the past couple months so what I'm saying could be outdated at this point), but it's a fun Pokemon to just take for a spin. 169 base Speed with Diancite is quite insane, although Deoxys-Speed laughs in the face of that.
Thanks to all the meta leaders, and I hope Mix and Mega continues to be as strong as it is.
Since USUM are coming out soon, and may or may not shake the meta in some way, I'd just like to show my respect for this meta's community while I'm still actively playing.
Some of the most fun I've had with playing MnM has been using unconventional checks to the strongest Pokemon. It's not always viable, but the ability to be so creative with strategies has led to easily the most fun in Gen 7 I've had compared to how stale Gen 7 OU and VGC '17 became to me.
Easily one of the most consistent Pokemon I've seen while playing (that wasn't banned later) is Kartana. Kartana's frailty causes it to not become too powerful, but at the same time, it with Metagrossite and Diancite have led to overwhelming power and speed. It's probably not the best set (heck, I've been on and off playing Pokemon in the past couple months so what I'm saying could be outdated at this point), but it's a fun Pokemon to just take for a spin. 169 base Speed with Diancite is quite insane, although Deoxys-Speed laughs in the face of that.
Thanks to all the meta leaders, and I hope Mix and Mega continues to be as strong as it is.
MnM's banlist is not connected to the main tiers as there are alots of allowed Ubers, some banned OU mons and Mega-Ray has been suspected into the meta more than once (not officially though, IT told me this a while back). So it will be the council's call in the end
yeah okThe first post of this thread said:
Does anyone else feel that with golisopod getting drill run by move tutor in mnm that it will become somewhat better ? As it now has something to hit pdon with on switch for good dmg as opposed to just toxicing it.
Does anyone think it that Ultra-Necrozma could be the ultimate counter to Pdon?
Its ability alone combined with its movepool scare me
Not only does this have Earth power in its arsenal, but it also has the ability to hit both defenses with Photon Geyser and Psyshock (although that is by no means the best set to run if you wanna hit things other than Pdon)
Also did it already get quickbanned because it isn't allowing me to use its z crystal on either forms
Its ability alone combined with its movepool scare me
Not only does this have Earth power in its arsenal, but it also has the ability to hit both defenses with Photon Geyser and Psyshock (although that is by no means the best set to run if you wanna hit things other than Pdon)
Also did it already get quickbanned because it isn't allowing me to use its z crystal on either forms
Ultra Boost was implemented in normal play as a form of Mega Evolution. This confused the Mix and Mega code so as an interim measure Zarel simply quickbanned the stone. Later TI limited the ban to Necrozma-Dawn-Wings and Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, but Zarel had to revert that change because it was still crashing.
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