M&M Mix and Mega

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Have you ever considered not arguing witht he metagame owners about what there metagame is like? In any case, similarly to MMX evolving into flat MMY with mewtwonite Y, in Mix and Mega the assumption is that pokemon revert to there base form, then Mega evolve, so long as its an in battle change. This is also why Ash greninja reverts when it mega evolves.
the point is you get knocked down low, and then you gain lets say 200 hp. you go to 200/400, then transform into 400/600. Then when you mega, you would be 400/400 again.
Have you ever considered not being a condescending asshole and actually understanding what other people are saying?
edit: like what did you think i meant? zygarde doesn't get any phys def or spdef boost upon transforming, it literally only gets an hp boost lol. (and speed drop and special attack raise)
 
the point is you get knocked down low, and then you gain lets say 200 hp. you go to 200/400, then transform into 400/600. Then when you mega, you would be 400/400 again.
Have you ever considered not being a condescending asshole and actually understanding what other people are saying?
edit: like what did you think i meant? zygarde doesn't get any phys def or spdef boost upon transforming, it literally only gets an hp boost lol. (and speed drop and special attack raise)
That's not what you said, though:
Actually because zygarde complete increases the hp stat it keeps the hp boost, so it would be super bulky and powerful
To quote, "it keeps the hp boost," which it does not. Zygarde that mega evolves from Zygarde-C would not be any bulkier than regular zygarde, and indeed would most likely be less so because you probably wouldn't get injured exactly that much while setting up, which goes against both the first and the second half of your sentence. The advantage is, as Chloe said, simply that of greater ease in setting up, plus some miscellaneous utility in not mega evolving instantly.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Zygarde that mega evolves from Zygarde-C would not be any bulkier than regular zygarde, and indeed would most likely be less so because you probably wouldn't get injured exactly that much while setting up, which goes against both the first and the second half of your sentence. The advantage is, as Chloe said, simply that of greater ease in setting up, plus some miscellaneous utility in not mega evolving instantly.
> you probably wouldn't get injured exactly that much while setting up
> greater ease in setting up
I love when people contradict themselves in their own post
 
> you probably wouldn't get injured exactly that much while setting up
> greater ease in setting up
I love when people contradict themselves in their own post
By exactly that much, I mean "exactly the same as the gain from complete, leaving you at 100%," Which is for obvious reasons unlikely to happen. In any case, the bulk comparison is that of Regular Altarianite/Pinsirite Zygarde and complete Altarianite/Pinsirite Zygarde, between which there isn't any difference bar the fact that the complete one is already almost certainly damaged. The selling point of complete would eb that it is already set up at that point, while regular wouldn't be.

Personally, I hate it, as it means I have to fulfill my ingrained response and spend my time responding to bad posts in the MnM thread, but if it makes you happy more power to you.
 
That's literally just what they said reworded, isn't it?
Uhhh I don't think so... I just meant more things like the Lucarionite Keldeo and Blue Orb Golisopod banner thats on the first post.

Are there any good Z move users that would usually run a stone instead? The one stone clause might have granted some new opportunity in this area.
 

Kris

bustom bitle
is a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
> you probably wouldn't get injured exactly that much while setting up
> greater ease in setting up
I love when people contradict themselves in their own post
By exactly that much, I mean "exactly the same as the gain from complete, leaving you at 100%," Which is for obvious reasons unlikely to happen. In any case, the bulk comparison is that of Regular Altarianite/Pinsirite Zygarde and complete Altarianite/Pinsirite Zygarde, between which there isn't any difference bar the fact that the complete one is already almost certainly damaged. The selling point of complete would eb that it is already set up at that point, while regular wouldn't be.

Personally, I hate it, as it means I have to fulfill my ingrained response and spend my time responding to bad posts in the MnM thread, but if it makes you happy more power to you.
If it makes you guys feel better you're both wrong
 

Laxpras

Young Metro Trusts Me
is a Pre-Contributor
Ubers Holding Stones

MnM needs to set much more clear standards to decide which Ubers Pokemon are and are not allowed to hold Mega Stones than the very arbitrary system already in place.

Currently, the MnM leadership has more-or-less cherry picked which Ubers to unban. Marshadow for example, was allowed despite its well noted perfect STAB combo, access to one of the more broken moves in the game, STAB Priority, fast speed, and high attack. Remember when Arceus-Ghost was one of the best mons in MnM? Lol same but then Marshadow happened. Hopefully, Marshadow will be banned in this suspect but it exemplifies the problems with cherry-picking unbans.

To further this, why are Deo-D and Deo-S allowed? Deo-S is at least guaranteed rocks, likely a set of spikes, and is the fastest taunt in the game. This set was allowed in AAA for some reason last gen, and I can personally speak to how powerful it is, do not underestimate how powerful guaranteed hazards are. On top of this, Pidgeotite Deo-S has Zap Cannon, Focus Blast, Blizzard, and Nasty Plot. Nasty Plot even tears through Blissey, and we all know how powerful/annoying Zap Cannon spam can be.

Then Deo-D is allowed. There was a push to ban Cresselia, but no push for DeoD. Yes Cresselia gets Calm Mind, but DeoD gets Cosmic Power, Recover, Taunt, and even better defenses. With Sablenite, DeoD can be damn hard to break.

What about Darkrai? The arguments I've seen against Darkrai is sleep spam, but we have Gengar and that hasn't been a problem due to all of the Magic Bounce in the meta. Is Darkrai that much stronger than Gengar that it should be banned but Gengar shouldn't? Why? How is this decided?

I can keep going. Is Zekrom that broken? Isn't Tapu Koko even stronger than Zekrom with Electric Terrain, and it is also faster? Why is Zekrom banned but Koko isn't? Is Reshiram really better than Volcarona? Volcarona gets Quiver Dance. By the arbitrary standard we currently have, I really think I could justify Zekrom and Reshiram being unban worthy. (Obviously the answer to my rhetorical questions are bc those 2 are Ubers - esteemed council "guaranteed win" IT11 even said he could theoretically see these two being unbanned, my point is this logic isn't used universally across the meta).

I'm not advocating to unban all of these, my own opinion is quite different (Marshadow should be banned, DeoS should be banned, DeoD should be banned). I am advocating that the MnM leadership outline how these decisions should be made in a way that is different then "DeoS has lower stats so unban, but Darkrai can sleep so ban!"

Clearly it is too late to start in what I consider the right way (all ubers banned and try each one individually), but something should be done.
 

Chloe

;w;
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
Ubers Holding Stones

MnM needs to set much more clear standards to decide which Ubers Pokemon are and are not allowed to hold Mega Stones than the very arbitrary system already in place.

Currently, the MnM leadership has more-or-less cherry picked which Ubers to unban. Marshadow for example, was allowed despite its well noted perfect STAB combo, access to one of the more broken moves in the game, STAB Priority, fast speed, and high attack. Remember when Arceus-Ghost was one of the best mons in MnM? Lol same but then Marshadow happened. Hopefully, Marshadow will be banned in this suspect but it exemplifies the problems with cherry-picking unbans.

To further this, why are Deo-D and Deo-S allowed? Deo-S is at least guaranteed rocks, likely a set of spikes, and is the fastest taunt in the game. This set was allowed in AAA for some reason last gen, and I can personally speak to how powerful it is, do not underestimate how powerful guaranteed hazards are. On top of this, Pidgeotite Deo-S has Zap Cannon, Focus Blast, Blizzard, and Nasty Plot. Nasty Plot even tears through Blissey, and we all know how powerful/annoying Zap Cannon spam can be.

Then Deo-D is allowed. There was a push to ban Cresselia, but no push for DeoD. Yes Cresselia gets Calm Mind, but DeoD gets Cosmic Power, Recover, Taunt, and even better defenses. With Sablenite, DeoD can be damn hard to break.

What about Darkrai? The arguments I've seen against Darkrai is sleep spam, but we have Gengar and that hasn't been a problem due to all of the Magic Bounce in the meta. Is Darkrai that much stronger than Gengar that it should be banned but Gengar shouldn't? Why? How is this decided?

I can keep going. Is Zekrom that broken? Isn't Tapu Koko even stronger than Zekrom with Electric Terrain, and it is also faster? Why is Zekrom banned but Koko isn't? Is Reshiram really better than Volcarona? Volcarona gets Quiver Dance. By the arbitrary standard we currently have, I really think I could justify Zekrom and Reshiram being unban worthy. (Obviously the answer to my rhetorical questions are bc those 2 are Ubers - esteemed council "guaranteed win" IT11 even said he could theoretically see these two being unbanned, my point is this logic isn't used universally across the meta).

I'm not advocating to unban all of these, my own opinion is quite different (Marshadow should be banned, DeoS should be banned, DeoD should be banned). I am advocating that the MnM leadership outline how these decisions should be made in a way that is different then "DeoS has lower stats so unban, but Darkrai can sleep so ban!"

Clearly it is too late to start in what I consider the right way (all ubers banned and try each one individually), but something should be done.
You do make a fair point, as we have never really provided an unambiguous answer as to why certain Ubers are permitted and others are not. The best answer I can give you is that the initial Gen 7 leadership arbitrarily unbanned many Ubers and blatantly broken Pokémon, and after progression into this metagame only the clearly broken Pokémon have been looked into due to the constant introduction of Mega Stones during this generation. Simply put, we haven't had the time to take a look at these Pokémon, nor was a sufficient argument made to really discuss the criteria in which we unbanned Pokémon.

However, as I say this I do not see much wrong with the current system, but instead a misunderstanding made by users due to lack of clarification. Rather than viewing it as an Ubers banlist, regard it as us only allowing Pokémon, that when given a stone can compete with the likes of top tier Ubers Pokémon. The current banlist allows Pokémon you state like Deoxys-Defense and Deoxys-Speed to mega evolve. As you stated, Cresselia was looked into and Deoxys-Defense wasn't. This was a mistake, as neither should have been suspect tested at this point in time. Neither has had the potency or prevalence to convince any user that they deserve to be re-evaluated. This was another issue from the previous leadership. I don't see an issue with this cherry-picking, so as we're keeping the metagame balanced. In summary, rather than viewing this as a myriad of Ubers unbans, view the banlist as its own separate entity. We've established a median in which Pokémon over said barrier are banned and those that lack potency remain.

As for individual queries. Darkrai was quickbanned after a unanimous decision was made that its combination of guaranteed sleep inducing in tandem with its set-up capabilities was deemed too overwhelming in comparison to the rest of the metagame. Shaymin-Sky was banned due to its ability to guarantee sleep in tandem with the capabilities of Seed Flare, which was also deemed too overwhelming. Gengar however lacks a solid niche that provides it with the ability to surpass the aforementioned bar. Its most redeeming quality on top of guaranteed sleep is being able to use Hex, which isn't enough to make it the formidable Pokémon it wants to be.

Marshadow remained in the metagame due to the plethora of answers both offense and bulkier playstyles had to deal with it. Offense had an abundance of priority and the relief that Marshadow had a very noticeable inability to OHKO many common offensive Pokémon, while being frail enough in return. Bulkier playstyles had Sablenite users, the common Aggronite Buzzwole and the ubiquitous support Arceus formes that plague any Ubers-based metagame. However, since the adjustment of the Stone Clause, the amount of priority users has inevitably fallen and so has the ability to run dual Sablenite. Both archetypes suffered immensely and Marshadow's influence has obviously increased. My impression was it always had this level of power, but the decision made at that time was based on public opinion at the time. Hence, it wasn't quickbanned, and a council decision was made to wait until after OMPL before taking any action.

Deoxys-Speed can have a solid argument made against it but I'm also against the opinion that it requires a ban or suspect at this point in time. Its Gyaradosite set is great at setting hazards, but being a great hazard setter isn't something its stone allows it to do, it sets them regardless. Its hazard setting ability is unparalleled, but this isn't preventing the usage of other hazard setters. The potency of Sticky Web in the current metagame allows Shuckle to see more usage than Deoxys-Speed in total when considering its Pidgeotite set as well. Pidgeotite Deoxys-Speed looks incredibly overwhelming on paper but can only rarely justify use in practice. I would be open to a discussion on Deoxys-Speed however.

Just to clarify, while I understand your post wasn't questioning why certain Ubers were unbanned but rather the reasoning for the arbitrariness of the unbans we have. I'll state that you should be viewing Mix and Mega as a custom banlist rather than a modifcation of the Ubers banlist, as well as us setting our own "Ubers" bar just like OU has; however, one that was more suited for a metagame such as this. If anything I said didn't make sense, I'm on two hours of sleep right now, I can clarify anything later if need be.
 
On top of this, Pidgeotite Deo-S has Zap Cannon, Focus Blast, Blizzard, and Nasty Plot.
Deo-S does not get Blizzard. The Pidgeotite Deo-S set is very underwhelming, it can be OHKOed by most atespeed users, and when it comes to power, it simply lies on how annoying it can be with paralysis, since Psycho Boost, it's best offensive move, severely cripples it. Nasty Plot can make up for this lack of power but not only will it take a slot away from coverage (pick 3: Zap Cannon, Focus Blast, Psycho Boost, Ice Beam) it will be costly for Deoxys to setup because of how frail it is since Blissey 3hkoes with Seismic Toss / Shadow Ball or the opponent gets to switch in something better. The Gyaradosite version is clearly strong but needs quite a lot of support to pressure the defog user(s) or else it's just sack fodder.

I'm not great with wording and I'm on mobile but I hope I was clear enough.

E: Deo-D is also very underwhelming, while Cosmic Power + High Defenses + Recover seem great on paper, its abysmal HP makes it unable to face Blissey, who can just spam seismic toss. It also does nothing better than Toxic and stall which is easily dealt with using steel types or sablenite, both of which are very common. Slow Taunt is close to useless since any Mold Breaker rock setter or toxic user will still be able to do it regardless. Cresselia on the other hand has more than the double of deo-d's hp, which makes a lot of difference, and has pressure with Calm Mind + Moonblast / Psyshock.
 
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The Pidgeotite Deo-S set is very underwhelming, it can be OHKOed by most atespeed users
No atespeed user can OHKO it
252+ Atk Pixilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 205-243 (85 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 190-225 (78.8 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 190-225 (78.8 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 190-225 (78.8 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 201-237 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 201-237 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's Adamant Nature, so if you run Jolly Nature, you can't OHKO it even after rocks (except Altarianite Entei, which have 31.3% chance of OHKO)
In return, DeoS OHKOes every atespeed user with either Psycho Boost if Altarianite, or Zap Cannon if Pinsirite (except Zygarde)

And with DeoS, you usually have Tapu Lele as a partner, who protects him from priorites of Weavile and atespeeds users, and get a Terrain-boosted Psycho Boost which OHKOes even Pinsirite Zygarde.

252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-Speed: 186-218 (77.1 - 90.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
ye.

This means that you usually have 1 atespeed user in a team, DeoS can now outspeed everything and continue its Psycho-Boost RK spamming (or just paralyse another mon with Zap Cannon)
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Deo-S does not get Blizzard. The Pidgeotite Deo-S set is very underwhelming, it can be OHKOed by most atespeed users, and when it comes to power, it simply lies on how annoying it can be with paralysis, since Psycho Boost, it's best offensive move, severely cripples it. Nasty Plot can make up for this lack of power but not only will it take a slot away from coverage (pick 3: Zap Cannon, Focus Blast, Psycho Boost, Ice Beam) it will be costly for Deoxys to setup because of how frail it is since Blissey 3hkoes with Seismic Toss / Shadow Ball or the opponent gets to switch in something better. The Gyaradosite version is clearly strong but needs quite a lot of support to pressure the defog user(s) or else it's just sack fodder.

I'm not great with wording and I'm on mobile but I hope I was clear enough.

E: Deo-D is also very underwhelming, while Cosmic Power + High Defenses + Recover seem great on paper, its abysmal HP makes it unable to face Blissey, who can just spam seismic toss. It also does nothing better than Toxic and stall which is easily dealt with using steel types or sablenite, both of which are very common. Slow Taunt is close to useless since any Mold Breaker rock setter or toxic user will still be able to do it regardless. Cresselia on the other hand has more than the double of deo-d's hp, which makes a lot of difference, and has pressure with Calm Mind + Moonblast / Psyshock.
You say that it gets ohkod by most atespeed users, but this is because people run bad spreads. deo-s doesn't need to run max speed, i run enough for scarf xern + diancite lele and the extra hp lets it live most atespeeds as well as fleur from magearna, so just putting this out there
 

Laxpras

Young Metro Trusts Me
is a Pre-Contributor
Deo-S does not get Blizzard. The Pidgeotite Deo-S set is very underwhelming, it can be OHKOed by most atespeed users, and when it comes to power, it simply lies on how annoying it can be with paralysis, since Psycho Boost, it's best offensive move, severely cripples it. Nasty Plot can make up for this lack of power but not only will it take a slot away from coverage (pick 3: Zap Cannon, Focus Blast, Psycho Boost, Ice Beam) it will be costly for Deoxys to setup because of how frail it is since Blissey 3hkoes with Seismic Toss / Shadow Ball or the opponent gets to switch in something better. The Gyaradosite version is clearly strong but needs quite a lot of support to pressure the defog user(s) or else it's just sack fodder.

I'm not great with wording and I'm on mobile but I hope I was clear enough.

E: Deo-D is also very underwhelming, while Cosmic Power + High Defenses + Recover seem great on paper, its abysmal HP makes it unable to face Blissey, who can just spam seismic toss. It also does nothing better than Toxic and stall which is easily dealt with using steel types or sablenite, both of which are very common. Slow Taunt is close to useless since any Mold Breaker rock setter or toxic user will still be able to do it regardless. Cresselia on the other hand has more than the double of deo-d's hp, which makes a lot of difference, and has pressure with Calm Mind + Moonblast / Psyshock.
See above posts countering your atespeed point. Also I invite you to read my post again, as the goal of the post was not advocating for a ban of deos/deod but to establish a less arbitrary standard for bans. You are arguing points I'm not making. I'm making this second post so ppl stop messaging me their opinions on deos/deod. Read my post for the overall point of it, don't just pick out some random thing that doesn't fall in line with your thinking and grasp to it
 

Sylveon.

formerly darksylvion
You say that it gets ohkod by most atespeed users, but this is because people run bad spreads. deo-s doesn't need to run max speed, i run enough for scarf xern + diancite lele and the extra hp lets it live most atespeeds as well as fleur from magearna, so just putting this out there
Well no, you run max speed to out-speed pidg xurk on webs teams and +2 standard geoxern or the rare +2 pdon. Investing in bulk is not important anyways until you are making 2hkoes into 3hkoes, which hp investment doesn't. Similarly living fleur cannon from mag is irrelevant too since you can't 1v1 it either ways.

Also while I won't disagree with MarkK that Deo-S is mediocre but your reasoning is kind of flawed in the sense that Deo-S isn't a mon which you use to wall-break but the one you use as a revenge killer not relying on espeed and having excellent coverage at the same time. It does have a cool niche of comfortably killing bulky stuff from that shaky 50-60 range and as I stated above paralyze things like geo-xern for HOes etc. While it suffers from kind of poor damage output in general, but it has a big asset in 200 Base Speed and that's what it should be used around. Also for Nasty Plot sets, you don't set up on Blissey fam, like every other special attacker you set up a nasty plot on the switch after which you 2hko.
Basically I am not saying it's the best mon or something, but complaining about it's damage output isn't exactly fair when it is not supposed to be 1hkoing stuff at all.
 
No atespeed user can OHKO it
252+ Atk Pixilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 205-243 (85 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 190-225 (78.8 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 190-225 (78.8 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 190-225 (78.8 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 201-237 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 201-237 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's Adamant Nature, so if you run Jolly Nature, you can't OHKO it even after rocks (except Altarianite Entei, which have 31.3% chance of OHKO)
In return, DeoS OHKOes every atespeed user with either Psycho Boost if Altarianite, or Zap Cannon if Pinsirite (except Zygarde)

And with DeoS, you usually have Tapu Lele as a partner, who protects him from priorites of Weavile and atespeeds users, and get a Terrain-boosted Psycho Boost which OHKOes even Pinsirite Zygarde.

252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-Speed: 186-218 (77.1 - 90.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
ye.

This means that you usually have 1 atespeed user in a team, DeoS can now outspeed everything and continue its Psycho-Boost RK spamming (or just paralyse another mon with Zap Cannon)
I want to point something not especially important - Genesect can actually OHKO Deo-S thanks to Download.
( also it must be Hasty in order to have Espeed )

+1 8 Atk Aerilate Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 231-273 (95.8 - 113.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Also Pidgeotite raises SpD BS by 5 points higher than Def, so this is the default boost for Download...
But it's not important since you can hijack that by giving 20 SpD IV to Deo-S.
 
See above posts countering your atespeed point. Also I invite you to read my post again, as the goal of the post was not advocating for a ban of deos/deod but to establish a less arbitrary standard for bans. You are arguing points I'm not making. I'm making this second post so ppl stop messaging me their opinions on deos/deod. Read my post for the overall point of it, don't just pick out some random thing that doesn't fall in line with your thinking and grasp to it
Marshadow should be banned, DeoS should be banned, DeoD should be banned​
You made it pretty clear, so I thought I should let you know that neither Deo-S nor Deo-D are nearly as strong as Marshadow.

Putting that aside, and coming back on topic, I do agree that the MnM Ubers banlist is quite messy. However, as SM is coming to an end and the existence of future SM MnM tournaments is doubtful, this would be perfect timing for cleaning up. A time where we suspect the Ubers (unofficially of course, it'd take too long to suspect them in the official ladder) and create a list of potentially viable mega-stone holding Ubers without making the meta too centralizing on them. With a little bit of help this would be made possible on other servers, and anyone who cares would be able to participate in the testing. The council, after getting feedback from the playtesting and theorycrafting of participant players would make the list (if there is one to be made) of the possible Ubers allowed to hold mega-stones. Then an official ladder suspect to allow these Ubers to be played by everyone and voted on by those who reach the requirements needed.

E: The list would obviously include, if need be, Ubers (or non-Ubers) who should not be allowed mega-stones as well.

This is a suggestion that can work and wouldn't clog the main server's ladder with any more than one suspect. It'd be a long period of testing and theorymoning to make the list, but I think this is the best solution for the problem, instead of quickunbanning handpicked Ubers and suspecting them later.
Thoughts? Chloe. InfernapeTropius11 Quantum Tesseract
 

Laxpras

Young Metro Trusts Me
is a Pre-Contributor
You made it pretty clear, so I thought I should let you know that neither Deo-S nor Deo-D are nearly as strong as Marshadow.
bro really? you just took that out of the context lmao.
Here is the context:
I'm not advocating to unban all of these, my own opinion is quite different (Marshadow should be banned, DeoS should be banned, DeoD should be banned). I am advocating that the MnM leadership outline how these decisions should be made in a way that is different then "DeoS has lower stats so unban, but Darkrai can sleep so ban!"
And here is my recommendation to you again:
Read my post for the overall point of it, don't just pick out some random thing that doesn't fall in line with your thinking and grasp to it
well that was enough mnm thread for me for awhile..

edit to not have a shitpost:

Kyu-W is a really good mon for people to try out. With Mold Breaker Fusion Flare it hits typical Draco switch ins (Magearna) really hard, and Toxic breaks through Sablenite Blissey. This would pair well with Keldeo or something :~)

edit edit to below:
using other servers to test bans/unbans is not a great idea imo bc it creates a biased sample or those who actually go on a different server.
 
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bro really? you just took that out of the context lmao.
Here is the context:

And here is my recommendation to you again:


well that was enough mnm thread for me for awhile..
Yes, I might not have addressed the main topic in my first post and only created meaningless side-discussion on the viability of the Deos, my bad.

However, I did have a suggestion for the problem you raised in my second post, and I would honestly love to hear your opinion on it.

e: formatting
 
You made it pretty clear, so I thought I should let you know that neither Deo-S nor Deo-D are nearly as strong as Marshadow.

Putting that aside, and coming back on topic, I do agree that the MnM Ubers banlist is quite messy. However, as SM is coming to an end and the existence of future SM MnM tournaments is doubtful, this would be perfect timing for cleaning up. A time where we suspect the Ubers (unofficially of course, it'd take too long to suspect them in the official ladder) and create a list of potentially viable mega-stone holding Ubers without making the meta too centralizing on them. With a little bit of help this would be made possible on other servers, and anyone who cares would be able to participate in the testing. The council, after getting feedback from the playtesting and theorycrafting of participant players would make the list (if there is one to be made) of the possible Ubers allowed to hold mega-stones. Then an official ladder suspect to allow these Ubers to be played by everyone and voted on by those who reach the requirements needed.

E: The list would obviously include, if need be, Ubers (or non-Ubers) who should not be allowed mega-stones as well.

This is a suggestion that can work and wouldn't clog the main server's ladder with any more than one suspect. It'd be a long period of testing and theorymoning to make the list, but I think this is the best solution for the problem.
Thoughts? Chloe. InfernapeTropius11 Quantum Tesseract
Only speaking for myself here, not as part of a council position: Personally, I would be up for testing in mnm ubers on Rom or wherever with anyone who wants to make a case for a mon not being broken. I would, however, want a couple of things before I was comfortable vouching for an unban, namely:
- A solid amount of calculation work showing a decent number of answers; this can come in the form of faster pokemon that can KO or Slower walls, but preferably some of both
- A few high level games with only that pokemon legalized extra showing it as demonstably managable
- And a solid reason for unban, as outlined here

E: Based on just gut instinct the onyl ones I'd really be at all comfortable with considering would be Solgaleo, Zekrom, and Lugia, but its not absolute either way.
 

Laxpras

Young Metro Trusts Me
is a Pre-Contributor
ya going back to deo-s cuz I'm
1. Tired of seeing it allowed
2. Tired of people not realizing how broken it is

Going to paste the VR through the B rank and
1. For defensive mons: do they check it
2. For offensive mons: do they win 1v1
S Rank

Pdon wins 1v1. Works as a check as well.
A Rank

A+
Deo S 1v1
DeoS wins 1v1
Does not check (Nasty Plot, Zap Cannon, Psycho Boost, etc)
A
Does not check. +2 Psycho Boost OHKOs
Does not check. +2 Psycho Boost OHKOs
Does not check. +2 Focus Blast wins
-
DeoS wins 1v1 unless Gene has a +1 boost and espeed
DeoS wins 1v1
DeoS wins 1v1
DeoS wins 1v1
50/50 on Sucker Play
DeoS wins 1v1 if Zyg has essentially any prior damage, otherwise Zyg wins 1v1 if both at full:
252 SpA Deoxys-Speed Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 286-337 (80.1 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Deoxys-Speed: 131-155 (54.3 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


A-
Depends on situation, not a reliable check.
Good check, lack of reliable recovery is still an issue.
Not a check.
Depends on Xerneas set. DeoS can outspeed even when Xern is +2. Also can Zap Cannon to remove Geo speed boost.
B Rank

B+
Does not check
DeoS has favorable roll to win 1v1:
252 SpA Deoxys-Speed Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 348-409 (93.8 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Does not check
If it has disguise, Mimkyu wins 1v1. Otherwise DeoS wins
Depends on set. Hoopa-U generally wins 1v1.
Deo-S wins 1v1.
DeoS wins 1v1.
Does not check
Why is this B+ rank lmao. I don't even know what to calc but this is shit in the meta anyway
B
Deo-S wins 1v1
Deo-S wins 1v1
Deo-S wins 1v1
DeoS wins 1v1
Ho-Oh wins 1v1 but cannot switch in as a check
DeoS wins 1v1
DeoS wins 1v1
DeoS wins 1v1
Lunala wins 1v1
Why is this ranked B? Anyway, DeoS wins 1v1 on a likely roll:
252 SpA Deoxys-Speed Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Rayquaza: 333-393 (95.4 - 112.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
DeoS wins 1v1
Depends on set/situation.

So in the S, A, and B rank we have:
A couple reliable checks: PDon, Mag, Kind of (not rlly) Ho-Oh, and kind of (not rlly) Cresselia.
A couple mons that win the 1v1: PDon, Yveltal (50/50 on Sucker play - also no one uses this anymore), Mimikyu (If disguise), Hoopa-U, Ho-Oh, and possibly Xurk, depending on the situation, Genesect only if it has altariate and a download boost.

Deo-S literally beats everything else
Looking at the checks, you'll also notice that they lack reliable recovery.
Offensive mons that can beat DeoS still have to worry about para spam.

And this isn't even getting into the mold breaker set that essentially guarantees 2 layers of hazards.

Can we please stop disregarding this mon? If you want to disagree if it's broken, cool bro, but to act like there isn't an argument to be made just makes you look ignorant tbh. And if there's an argument to be made on both sides, isn't that a warrant for a suspect? Especially since this an Uber randomly unbanned without reason by the previous leadership as the current leadership already acknowledged?

banning zap cannon would also fix the issue
 
I stopped for the most part using Pidgeotite Deoxys (as incredibly powerful as it is) because Gyaradosite hazards are that good. It's not fun, it's not fair, and as good as defensive MnM options are they pale in comparison to the offensive options (Lucarionite, Pidgeotite, Metagrossite, Lopunnite, Altarianite, the list of hideously powerful Mega Stones is vast) so good luck finding room to spin or Defog with at minimum Rocks and a layer of Spikes.

Not saying it can't be done, I know I've lost more than enough games to prove that. But I remember a recent tour in which Quantum Tesseract, one of THE premier MnM players, used Gyaradosite basically every round and there was little-to-nothing that his opponents could do to shut down offensive pressure after Rocks and sometimes Spikes went up for free.
 
ya going back to deo-s cuz I'm
1. Tired of seeing it allowed
2. Tired of people not realizing how broken it is

Going to paste the VR through the B rank and
1. For defensive mons: do they check it
2. For offensive mons: do they win 1v1
S Rank

Pdon wins 1v1. Works as a check as well.
A Rank

A+
Deo S 1v1
DeoS wins 1v1
Does not check (Nasty Plot, Zap Cannon, Psycho Boost, etc)
A
Does not check. +2 Psycho Boost OHKOs
Does not check. +2 Psycho Boost OHKOs
Does not check. +2 Focus Blast wins
-
DeoS wins 1v1 unless Gene has a +1 boost and espeed
DeoS wins 1v1
DeoS wins 1v1
DeoS wins 1v1
50/50 on Sucker Play
DeoS wins 1v1 if Zyg has essentially any prior damage, otherwise Zyg wins 1v1 if both at full:
252 SpA Deoxys-Speed Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 286-337 (80.1 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Deoxys-Speed: 131-155 (54.3 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


A-
Depends on situation, not a reliable check.
Good check, lack of reliable recovery is still an issue.
Not a check.
Depends on Xerneas set. DeoS can outspeed even when Xern is +2. Also can Zap Cannon to remove Geo speed boost.
B Rank

B+
Does not check
DeoS has favorable roll to win 1v1:
252 SpA Deoxys-Speed Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 348-409 (93.8 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Does not check
If it has disguise, Mimkyu wins 1v1. Otherwise DeoS wins
Depends on set. Hoopa-U generally wins 1v1.
Deo-S wins 1v1.
DeoS wins 1v1.
Does not check
Why is this B+ rank lmao. I don't even know what to calc but this is shit in the meta anyway
B
Deo-S wins 1v1
Deo-S wins 1v1
Deo-S wins 1v1
DeoS wins 1v1
Ho-Oh wins 1v1 but cannot switch in as a check
DeoS wins 1v1
DeoS wins 1v1
DeoS wins 1v1
Lunala wins 1v1
Why is this ranked B? Anyway, DeoS wins 1v1 on a likely roll:
252 SpA Deoxys-Speed Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Rayquaza: 333-393 (95.4 - 112.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
DeoS wins 1v1
Depends on set/situation.

So in the S, A, and B rank we have:
A couple reliable checks: PDon, Mag, Kind of (not rlly) Ho-Oh, and kind of (not rlly) Cresselia.
A couple mons that win the 1v1: PDon, Yveltal (50/50 on Sucker play - also no one uses this anymore), Mimikyu (If disguise), Hoopa-U, Ho-Oh, and possibly Xurk, depending on the situation, Genesect only if it has altariate and a download boost.

Deo-S literally beats everything else
Looking at the checks, you'll also notice that they lack reliable recovery.
Offensive mons that can beat DeoS still have to worry about para spam.

And this isn't even getting into the mold breaker set that essentially guarantees 2 layers of hazards.

Can we please stop disregarding this mon? If you want to disagree if it's broken, cool bro, but to act like there isn't an argument to be made just makes you look ignorant tbh. And if there's an argument to be made on both sides, isn't that a warrant for a suspect? Especially since this an Uber randomly unbanned without reason by the previous leadership as the current leadership already acknowledged?
banning zap cannon would also fix the issue
I dont have time for a full commentary right now, but please keep in mind that a) several of these pokemon (such as altarianite landorus and standard arcanine) doin fact win 1v1, and in any case these viability rankings are outdated to the point that this is not an accurate representation of Deoxys-S' impact on the metagame. The new viability rankings should be posted shortly by Chloe. If you want to do a more accurate version.
 

Laxpras

Young Metro Trusts Me
is a Pre-Contributor
I dont have time for a full commentary right now, but please keep in mind that a) several of these pokemon (such as altarianite landorus and standard arcanine) doin fact win 1v1, and in any case these viability rankings are outdated to the point that this is not an accurate representation of Deoxys-S' impact on the metagame. The new viability rankings should be posted shortly by Chloe. If you want to do a more accurate version.
252 SpA Deoxys-Speed Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 330-388 (103.4 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Deoxys-Speed Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 330-388 (102.8 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

mhm