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Metagame SM Monotype Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter scpinion
- Start date
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Alright, so now that Megagross is banned, what does that mean for Kartana? Everyone was so worried about both of them and we didn't know who the culprit was. We gave Metagross the trial first and it was deemed banworthy, so shouldn't we revisit Kartana?
By the way, welcome back Mega Scizor
By the way, welcome back Mega Scizor
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potentially, let's see how this metagame plays first.
Namranan
:)))))))))))
Oh boy is this a day for HO mono teams now. With the new ban on BP, setup is going to be a lot harder now for the opposing teams to pull.
Oh and I guess Megagross being banned is cool too, it kinda makes bug and poison less stressful to use while laddering. Honestly lets hope that this finally puts steel in its place in mono without being OP. I'm really curious to see what type might benefit the most from this ban.
Also RIP Hoopa-U, forever have your powers sealed away when you enter mono.
Oh and I guess Megagross being banned is cool too, it kinda makes bug and poison less stressful to use while laddering. Honestly lets hope that this finally puts steel in its place in mono without being OP. I'm really curious to see what type might benefit the most from this ban.
Also RIP Hoopa-U, forever have your powers sealed away when you enter mono.
This is Hydreigon. It's no longer burdened by the necessity of having Choice Scarf on itself, and it would like to have few words with you after what you were doing to it and its squad last two months.
I think it'll be very very interesting to see how the meta adapts and shapes in the next couple weeks in response to the ban of Mega-Metagross: will poison rise as an anti-meta type? Will fighting see any more usage? Will Mega-Scizor give Fairy a harder time than mega-gross (hint: yes)? It's possible not much will actually change, but I'm glad we can actually playtest it rather than theorycraft.
As a few others may know, I was probably the biggest hater of Hoopa-U since it's release practically. Hearing this wonderful news yesterday made me jump out of my seat. Megagross being didn't really matter to me, whether it stayed or was banned, made no difference to me. I'm just excited to freely try out some more Ghost teams without having to worry about Hoopa. I feel like Meloetta may rise in usage on Psychic, not really sure. But I'd rather deal with a Normal/Psychic type with a base 127 SpA than a Dark/Psychic type with a base 170 SpA/160 Atk. Probably have to worry about Shadow Ball Magearna (looking at you ArkenCiel >.>) but I'll think of something for that. For now, I tip my hat to the council for these long overdue bans.
On mobile and in class, so sorry for any grammar errors I may have missed.
On mobile and in class, so sorry for any grammar errors I may have missed.
Definitely some interesting bans here, personally have not faced problems with either so I can't really argue about pro- and anti-ban. I can definitely see Mega Scizor being a bigger threat to Fairy, Rock, and Ice teams teams (probably even bigger a threat than Mega Metagross, just as much as it was last gen).
But the thing that interests me the most is the ban on Baton Pass, it hasn't been much of an influential thing in Monotype as it has in other tiers, so there isn't much to back it up. The only way I can see it being used much is Z-move passing, which in itself is quite rare, and Scoli-passing, which is usually only limited to Poison since Bug doesn't need it. It almost seems as if it is being banned in Monotype just because some official tiers are doing it (if that really is the reason, I guess I don't have much to say)
Then again, quite open minded, and there may really be something about Baton Pass that I'm missing, and would love to hear the reason that resulted in its ban.
But the thing that interests me the most is the ban on Baton Pass, it hasn't been much of an influential thing in Monotype as it has in other tiers, so there isn't much to back it up. The only way I can see it being used much is Z-move passing, which in itself is quite rare, and Scoli-passing, which is usually only limited to Poison since Bug doesn't need it. It almost seems as if it is being banned in Monotype just because some official tiers are doing it (if that really is the reason, I guess I don't have much to say)
Then again, quite open minded, and there may really be something about Baton Pass that I'm missing, and would love to hear the reason that resulted in its ban.
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Yeah the Baton Pass ban seems a bit out of left-field.
Anyways, on a fun, totally unrelated note (off the topic of bans), has anyone else been messing around with Z-moves on sweepers?
Despite the Gen 7 meta being almost two months old now I feel like there's still a lot of uncharted territory, especially in regards to Z-moves. I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I dismissed them early on as "gimmicky and inconsistent" compared to the sustained benefits of staple items like Life Orb or Choice Band/Specs. And while that is often the case, I definitely underestimated the value of Z-Moves as a tool to blow past defensive checks on set up sweepers, and have only recently begun experimenting with them more deeply.
Clearly a lot of them werefun duds, but some were actually really effective. I thought I'd share one of the more successful sets I've tested: Firium-Z Volcarona
Volcarona @ Firium Z
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- Giga Drain
- Bug Buzz / HP Ground
It's a really fun set from OU, and I feel it performs even better in Monotype where it can abuse sun support from Torkoal and Zard-Y. The sheer, stupid power of an 185 BP, sun-boosted, STAB Z-Fire Blast (boosted further by however many quiver dances you pull off) completely blows back offensive and defensive checks like Toxapex, Gyarados, Tapu Fini, Dragonite, and even 4x resists like Charizard-X: clearing the path for a sweep.
There's a lot of wiggle room with this set; sheer power allows Volcarona to make use of several different coverage options and EV spreads. Volcarona can run Timid to avoid 50/50s with Scolipede / Sharpedo, outspeed scarf Exca, and speed tie Victini, though you sacrifice a fair number of guaranteed OHKOs to do so (gyarados, garchomp, etc). You can use a Bulkarona spread and abuse your capacity to rack up more Quiver Dance boosts. Even Z-Fiery Dance isn't out of the question, as it sports a respectable 160 BP as well and is more compatible with aforementioned bulky sets.
I've had a lot of success with it lately (enough to post it here on the Monotype Underated and Creative Sets thread) but I'm definitely not an expert on Fire (by far my worst type) so I'd love to hear what other more experienced players who've tried and/or considered the set think.
Anyways, on a fun, totally unrelated note (off the topic of bans), has anyone else been messing around with Z-moves on sweepers?
Despite the Gen 7 meta being almost two months old now I feel like there's still a lot of uncharted territory, especially in regards to Z-moves. I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I dismissed them early on as "gimmicky and inconsistent" compared to the sustained benefits of staple items like Life Orb or Choice Band/Specs. And while that is often the case, I definitely underestimated the value of Z-Moves as a tool to blow past defensive checks on set up sweepers, and have only recently begun experimenting with them more deeply.
Here are some of the sets I've tried:
- Double Dance Terrakion (Z-Stone Edge)
- Swords Dance Tapu Bulu (Z-Stone Edge / Superpower)
- Bulk-Up Thundurus (Z-Fly / Superpower)
- Hone Claws Durant (Z-Iron Head / Stone Edge / Superpower)
- SS Cloyster (Z-Hydro Pump)
- Contrary Serperior (Z-Hyper Beam)
- D-Dance Dragonite (Z-Outrage / Fly)
- Double Dance Terrakion (Z-Stone Edge)
- Swords Dance Tapu Bulu (Z-Stone Edge / Superpower)
- Bulk-Up Thundurus (Z-Fly / Superpower)
- Hone Claws Durant (Z-Iron Head / Stone Edge / Superpower)
- SS Cloyster (Z-Hydro Pump)
- Contrary Serperior (Z-Hyper Beam)
- D-Dance Dragonite (Z-Outrage / Fly)
Clearly a lot of them were
Volcarona @ Firium Z
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- Giga Drain
- Bug Buzz / HP Ground
It's a really fun set from OU, and I feel it performs even better in Monotype where it can abuse sun support from Torkoal and Zard-Y. The sheer, stupid power of an 185 BP, sun-boosted, STAB Z-Fire Blast (boosted further by however many quiver dances you pull off) completely blows back offensive and defensive checks like Toxapex, Gyarados, Tapu Fini, Dragonite, and even 4x resists like Charizard-X: clearing the path for a sweep.
None of these KOs are possible with any of Volcarona's other moves at +1, and all of these threats are able to KO or cripple Volcarona if not dispatched. Yes, you must sacrifice Lum Berry or other items to run a Z-stone, which can limit what you can safely set up on. But the above calcs demonstrate the value of such an absurdly strong nuke attack in removing typical checks and securing sweeps.
There's a lot of wiggle room with this set; sheer power allows Volcarona to make use of several different coverage options and EV spreads. Volcarona can run Timid to avoid 50/50s with Scolipede / Sharpedo, outspeed scarf Exca, and speed tie Victini, though you sacrifice a fair number of guaranteed OHKOs to do so (gyarados, garchomp, etc). You can use a Bulkarona spread and abuse your capacity to rack up more Quiver Dance boosts. Even Z-Fiery Dance isn't out of the question, as it sports a respectable 160 BP as well and is more compatible with aforementioned bulky sets.
I've had a lot of success with it lately (enough to post it here on the Monotype Underated and Creative Sets thread) but I'm definitely not an expert on Fire (by far my worst type) so I'd love to hear what other more experienced players who've tried and/or considered the set think.
What other Z-move sets have you all been having success with?
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Namranan
:)))))))))))
As a bug main, I find that set VERY useful for checking dangerous sets on dark and water. Let me show you what I use, and please note that this will be bug I am referring to.Yeah the Baton Pass ban seems a bit out of left-field.
I assume the decision was made more to adhere to Smogon's precedents than to balance the metagame, since there aren't any really pervasive abusers in monotype. In fact the only time I've seen Baton Pass in the last two months was that SDPass-Celebi / Mega-Metagross core running around recently (which is obviously null now).
Anyways, on a totally unrelated note (and far, far aside from the topic of bans), has anyone else tried Firium-Z Volcarona on Fire?
Volcarona @ Firium Z
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- Giga Drain
- Bug Buzz / HP Ground
It's popular set in OU as a cleaner, and I feel it performs even better in Monotype where it can abuse sun support from Torkoal and Zard-Y. The sheer, stupid power of an 185 sun-boosted, STAB Z-Fire Blast (boosted further by however many quiver dances you pull off) completely blows back defensive checks like Toxapex, Gyarados, Tapu Fini, Dragonite, and even 4x resists like Charizard-X: clearing the path for a sweep either.
None of these KOs are possible with any of Volcarona's other moves at +1, and all of these threats are able to KO or cripple Volcarona if not dispatched. And even outside sun Z-Fire Blast is enormously powerful, able to KO many of the same checks (Gyarados, Dragonite, Zard-X) with rocks and other chip. Yes, you must sacrifice Lum Berry and other items (seen Passho a couple times) to run a Z-stone, which can limit what you can safely set up on. But hopefully the above calcs demonstrate the value of such an absurdly strong nuke attack in removing typical checks and securing sweeps.
There's a lot of wiggle room with this set; sheer power allows Volcarona to make use of several different coverage options and EV spreads.
Volcarona can run Timid to avoid 50/50s with Scolipede / Sharpedo and speed tie Victini (though you sacrifice a fair number of guaranteed OHKOs to do so). You can use a Bulkarona spread and abuse your capacity to rack up more Quiver Dance boosts. Even Z-Fiery Dance isn't out of the question, as it sports a respectable 160 BP as well and is more compatible with aforementioned bulky sets.
I've had a lot of success with it lately: but I'm definitely not an expert on Fire (by far my worst type) so I'd love to hear input and experience from any other players better versed in Fire who've tried or considered it.
Volcarona @ Firium Z
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- Roost
- HP Ground
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- Roost
- HP Ground
Basically everything Tyke said is true, this is surprisingly good for both types. It helps bug assassinate one flying threat on an otherwise grounded team, and on HO bug, it can really help give momentum as a lead. Even with the BP ban crippling this set just a little now that you can't switch in as well, This set makes volcarona an even better wall breaker for bug. I can see this doing well on fire, but I honestly think that the benefits it gives to bug out weight by A LOT. I have won 11 games out of 12 thanks this thing so yeah, it is a pretty good set.
There was quite a lot of justified confusion on why Baton Pass was banned all of a sudden when it has never been discussed. I will admit it would appear quite out of the blue, so as a result, I'll do my best to clear it up with the logic I believe makes the most sense.
The primary problem with Baton Pass in Monotype is that it's just uncompetitive at its core. Every battle against it becomes either your team has specific checks to Baton Pass and you can win or it doesn't and you definitely don't win. Most standard teams don't have legitimate checks to pure Baton Pass teams and it's unreasonable to expect them to run them to beat a gimmick. Of course, because of type advantage, some teams, such as those with Mega Sharpedo or Mega Sableye, will have a significant advantage and won't need to run checks. That is the case for all strategies and teams in Monotype. However, this case is almost completely identical to that of Mega Sableye in ORAS, which was banned by a suspect vote for the same reason.
Let me give two concrete examples to explain the problem. First look at Electric teams, which have no legitimate way of stopping a Baton Pass-focused Psychic team. Deoxys-S outspeeds every Pokemon on the team on the first turn and is guaranteed Light Screen. Mew already walls most of Electric, but now it can even set up Amnesia and/or Barrier to make it literally impossible barring critical hits. Baton Passing to Espeon just ends the game, with its Magic Bounce preventing Thunder Wave Thundurus from even getting perfect paralysis hax to beat it. I will note that both Deoxys-S and Mew have Taunt, which will prevent Xurkitree from trying any Tail Glow / Z-Hypnosis shenanigans, and Mew's use of Mental Herb also prevents faster Taunt users, such as Tapu Koko, from stopping the Baton Pass. I would contend that no standard Electric team is capable of beating it without relying on hax. The absolute best player in the world using an Electric team will never be able to beat a Baton Pass Psychic without critical hit luck. From Team Preview, Electric teams will simply lose to Baton Pass. This interaction is what I call uncompetitive.
The second example can be seen in a replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-520173068. This otherwise well-built team literally had no way to win because he just so happened to not have Haze Mantine, which is a perfectly viable thing to do. There was no play that AV8 could have made to actually win the game without relying on flinches or critical hits with Dark Pulse. He lost from Team Preview because he didn't have Haze Mantine or Mega Sharpedo. And I would claim this largely extends to many more types including Flying, Poison, Steel, and even Psychic. Most of these types have access to "checks" but they shouldn't be required to always use them, as they're often pretty useless outside of the Baton Pass matchup.
While standard tiers like OU may have ways to prevent Baton Pass from being too powerful, Monotype is simply too restrictive on teambuilding to make it possible for players to adequately prepare for it most of the time. Baton Pass is also a strategy that is relatively uncommon, which makes the tradeoff of preparing for an uncommon gimmick difficult to swallow. While Baton Pass may occasionally fail to successfully sweep against some teams due to either type matchup or a specific check, this is exactly what I mean when I say every battle is either you have the check or you don't and you automatically lose. Furthermore, some types literally have no check available to them. Once the battle has started, the game is almost guaranteed to be decided from Team Preview. No matter how well any user plays, either their team is tailored to beat Baton Pass or it can't, and thus, I would claim that Baton Pass is an uncompetitive strategy.
I would also note that the collateral damage is infinitesimal. There are almost no viable teams or Pokemon that use drypassing and very few that rely on competitive and healthy use of Baton Pass. As a result, it was decided that simplifying the ineffective and honestly quite convoluted Baton Pass Clause, which was only developed for OU mind you, was the best path to take to remove this undesirable element of Monotype.
The primary problem with Baton Pass in Monotype is that it's just uncompetitive at its core. Every battle against it becomes either your team has specific checks to Baton Pass and you can win or it doesn't and you definitely don't win. Most standard teams don't have legitimate checks to pure Baton Pass teams and it's unreasonable to expect them to run them to beat a gimmick. Of course, because of type advantage, some teams, such as those with Mega Sharpedo or Mega Sableye, will have a significant advantage and won't need to run checks. That is the case for all strategies and teams in Monotype. However, this case is almost completely identical to that of Mega Sableye in ORAS, which was banned by a suspect vote for the same reason.
Let me give two concrete examples to explain the problem. First look at Electric teams, which have no legitimate way of stopping a Baton Pass-focused Psychic team. Deoxys-S outspeeds every Pokemon on the team on the first turn and is guaranteed Light Screen. Mew already walls most of Electric, but now it can even set up Amnesia and/or Barrier to make it literally impossible barring critical hits. Baton Passing to Espeon just ends the game, with its Magic Bounce preventing Thunder Wave Thundurus from even getting perfect paralysis hax to beat it. I will note that both Deoxys-S and Mew have Taunt, which will prevent Xurkitree from trying any Tail Glow / Z-Hypnosis shenanigans, and Mew's use of Mental Herb also prevents faster Taunt users, such as Tapu Koko, from stopping the Baton Pass. I would contend that no standard Electric team is capable of beating it without relying on hax. The absolute best player in the world using an Electric team will never be able to beat a Baton Pass Psychic without critical hit luck. From Team Preview, Electric teams will simply lose to Baton Pass. This interaction is what I call uncompetitive.
The second example can be seen in a replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-520173068. This otherwise well-built team literally had no way to win because he just so happened to not have Haze Mantine, which is a perfectly viable thing to do. There was no play that AV8 could have made to actually win the game without relying on flinches or critical hits with Dark Pulse. He lost from Team Preview because he didn't have Haze Mantine or Mega Sharpedo. And I would claim this largely extends to many more types including Flying, Poison, Steel, and even Psychic. Most of these types have access to "checks" but they shouldn't be required to always use them, as they're often pretty useless outside of the Baton Pass matchup.
While standard tiers like OU may have ways to prevent Baton Pass from being too powerful, Monotype is simply too restrictive on teambuilding to make it possible for players to adequately prepare for it most of the time. Baton Pass is also a strategy that is relatively uncommon, which makes the tradeoff of preparing for an uncommon gimmick difficult to swallow. While Baton Pass may occasionally fail to successfully sweep against some teams due to either type matchup or a specific check, this is exactly what I mean when I say every battle is either you have the check or you don't and you automatically lose. Furthermore, some types literally have no check available to them. Once the battle has started, the game is almost guaranteed to be decided from Team Preview. No matter how well any user plays, either their team is tailored to beat Baton Pass or it can't, and thus, I would claim that Baton Pass is an uncompetitive strategy.
I would also note that the collateral damage is infinitesimal. There are almost no viable teams or Pokemon that use drypassing and very few that rely on competitive and healthy use of Baton Pass. As a result, it was decided that simplifying the ineffective and honestly quite convoluted Baton Pass Clause, which was only developed for OU mind you, was the best path to take to remove this undesirable element of Monotype.
Both of the types that Hoopa is on have no trouble getting it in with moves like U-Turn or bringing it in on something that won't be able to damage it. And non-scarfed Hoopa isn't meant to be a revenge killer/sweeper, it's supposed to be a wall breaker. Hoopa's role is to break down the other team so that the faster (and weaker) mons on your team can clean. Also, both of the types Hoopa is on give it great support. If there is something that threatens Hoopa, you can just switch out to one of your walls to soak up the hit.
The main difference between Hoopa and Greninja is raw power. Even when resisted, Specs Hoopa's Psyshocks and Dark Pulses still do a ton of damage. Greninja needs a move to be super-effective for it to hit hard. And Greninja is meant as more of a revenge killer with its fantastic speed tier, while Hoopa is a wall breaker as I said before. Also, it's not that simple to just not let a Pokemon come in. There are more opportunities than you think.
TL;DR Hoopa-U destroys slower, more defensive teams, making them a lot less viable. Definitely agree with the ban.
..what? Sorry, but your post makes no sense whatsoever. It hurt my head to read it even.. UGH!
First off, what does this mean?
How does Hoopa-U being Choice Scarfed or not have any impact on it's physical bulk? I don't understand.. Besides, both Psychic and Dark have better switch-ins to physically defensive Pokemon, meaning there is little to no reason to switch your Hoopa-U in on something like Ferrothorn or any other physical wall you had in mind I'm assuming.
Another fantastic example. Greninja was banned in ORAS Monotype, partially for the reasons you mentioned here, so comparing it to Hoopa-U disproves your own point even more. Although, Greninja don't have enough in common to make them comparable side to side like this. Besides that, regular Greninja has been on the radar for a potential Suspect Test / Council Ban for a while now, as seen in scpinion's post on page 17.
This uhh.. really boggled my mind. I have no idea what you're talking about. Four Move Syndrome is something that Greninja suffers from, but it isn't always a bad thing. Four Move Syndrome means the Pokemon you're facing is unpredictable, and can easily catch you off-guard with a coverage move you didn't think it would have. It also makes you need to scout for certain moves (like HP Fire for example, on Greninja), forcing teammates to take unneccesary damage. Only having limited amount of Move Options means it's hard to catch your opponent with a surprise tech since he/she will most likely know exactly what moves the Pokemon in question will be using.
Hoopa-U having 3 completely different movesets that all work differently and aren't easy to figure out from team preview.. a bad thing? I don't think so lol. Both CB, Choice Specs, and Scarf have their own uses, and are both (equally) threatening to the opposing team, depending on matchup a bit. Yes, a couple of Pokemon are able to switch in on Specs or Choice Band multiple times while recovering off the damage, but team support is a thing and the bigger problem is that Dark Pulse flinches (sadly) helps Specs Hoopa-U break through Specially Defensive Pokemon, and CB Hoopa-U can afford to run coverage moves like Fire Punch to break through Ferrothorn and Magearna, for example.
Oh, about Magearna..
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 44 Def Magearna: 244-288 (67 - 79.1%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Magearna: 211-249 (57.9 - 68.4%)
I don't think your post was very convincing as to why Hoopa-U shouldn't have been banned (you're too late on that anyways, Council surely won't reconsider their decision by a mind-opener like this post), as you mostly kept misproving your own points and / or spouted nonsense.
Haha is that the fastest a post has ever been destroyed? I honestly deserve a prize for that tbh. In all seriousness though I can admit when I'm wrong but I don't want to give in to the ban just yet. I'm just going to take a nap so I don't continue to spout nonsense and further elaborate on the points that I made later. One thing before I go though. The reason I connected greninja with hoopa was because of the fact that they share versatility. My original point was that just because a mon is versatile doesn't mean that it's unwallable. Guess I went a little left field though lol.
If you mean to say no single Hoopa-U set is unwallable, that'd be true... sorta.
But it's straight up untrue to claim that the full extent of Hoopa's viable movesets and coverage can be walled by anything in the monotype metagame. Band, Specs, LO and coverage from E-ball to T-bolt to Fire Punch are all viable and can be tailored to suit your team's needs. Yes, it can't do that all in one set, but it makes Hoopa-U pretty impossible to prepare for. A capacity to break everything in the meta (and most things on types by just using STABs) is pretty unhealthy.
Sleep well
Ok im back and its time to present The reasons i think hoopa should not have been banned. getting roasted by surperior players part 2! Im going to first present the pros and cons of using hoopa on your mono team as well as some of the arguments for hoopas banning and why i think he should not have been banned.
The base lord himself
lets start with the pros.
Hoopa is versatile!
why this is a good thing: hoopa being versatile means that he is able to run as many sets as you can think of and still be viable. this means that hoopa is extremely unpredictable and can if he just so happens to have that one coverage move thats strong agains your team such as thunderbolt, drain punch, energy ball. etc then he can catch you off guard and score a kill and possibly even win the game if your team is not prepared for such a move.
Why i dont think this is a good reason for banning: While being versatile is a very good thing not gonna lie, for one all of the moves that hoopa learns are common coverage moves. thunderbolt for example. while this is a strong coverage move that hits both water and flying types, if you are using those types and don't have something that can beat this move then that is the fault of the team build and not of the mon attacking. for example, porygon 2 gets psychic. if im using fighting and my team loses more than 3-4 mons to the p2 psychic, i don't care how strong the psychic was, its my fault for not having a fast strong attacker on the team. while this is an extreme example the point is still there. and for those of you that are waiting for me to mention the strong stab moves this thing gets ill get to it in a second.
lets move on to another one of hoopas great traits.
Hoopa is thicc(specially)
why this is a good thing: Hoopa being able to tank a hit before it attacks is HUGE for its viablity since being strong literally means nothing if you can't get a hit off. hoopa boasts fairly decent 80/130 hp/special defense stats meaning that it will be able to soak up the weaker special hits and maybe a little more if you run the bulky variant. meaning that if you are a weak special attacker chances are you arnt doing more than 50% to this thing.
Why i dont think this is a good reason for banning: ignoring his featherweight defenses(for now) hoopa still has fairly off putting 80 hp. meaning that even though hes able to take some of the weaker special attacks does not mean that he is a special tank by any means of the word. as far as tanking a hit goes this is the general rule of thumb: if its a special move that monotype is normally weak to/ if you would switch out with any other offensive mon switch out with this thing.
here are some calcs that will rustle your jimmies:
for dark monos:
For psychic monos:
as you can see even boasting that special bulk he still takes quite a bit from special attacks. plus the fact that off of these calcs were from mons that outspeed you (except maybe tapu fini) and you cant be scarfed because i calcd you with max hp. so even boasting that special bulk hes not a switchin for most things his type struggles with already. and that hurts his viability.
and another one.....
great teamates!
why this is good: this is an AWESOME thing to have if you have an offensive presence like hoopa. because this means that the calcs we just went over won't even matter because you can just switch to the respective teammates and not have to take any damage whatsoever. when a threat comes in you can just go to the respective special or physical wall and tank it. it also teams well with teammates offensively as they help him by carrying coverage moves that he isn't able to carry due to only being able to use 4 moves
Why this is not a good reason for a ban: for starters, having great teammates does not mean a particular mon is good. if im sweeping you with octillary and switching out into a respective wall every time a threat comes in, that does not mean octillary is good, rather it means the respective walls are doing their job well. also all of the calcs that I did were not moves particular to hoopa in any way, rather they were moves super effective to the monotype he happens to be on. this means that those moves are likely super effective to the mons that you would normally switch in like mew, slowbro, tyranitar, and alolan muk.
and besides, all of the special walls that psychic has don't provide any resistances to the types psychic is weak to normally outside of jirachi with bug. and all of the special walls that dark has, outside of maybe mandibuzz, lack reliable coverage. so they cant switch in often.
AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST
STRONG AS A MF!
why this is good: hoopa has INSANE psysical AND special attack. and when combined with its massive movepool means that not only is it difficult to prepare for, it straight up shatters unprepared defensive cores. finding any chink in the defensive core and just BLASTING straight through. lets not forget that fact that his stab when hes specs or band is SO STRONG that unless you are a quad resist, it doing quite a bit.
Why this is not ban worthy: as i was corrected before, hoopa is a wallbreaker. meaning hes MEANT to BREAK WALLS. thats literally his job. so its honestly irrational to Not expect a wall breaker to preform its job correctly and break defensive cores, since thats literally what people use hoopa for. heres the thing though. even though he does his job EXTREMELY well, hes still not unwallable. its literally impossible to be unwallable with a 4 move limit, since no matter which combo of moves you use there is always a handful of mons that wall that particular set. besides, raw power does not matter if the mon has no longevity. and with paper thin defense, and subpar special defense longevity wont be very long unless you plan on switching this thing out often.
ON TO THE BAD TRAITS.
is VERY prone to losing momentum
why this is bad: this thing loses momentum. LIKE A LOT. the reason being, that his paper thin defenses mean that if someone predicts you to go hoopa and goes to ANY physical presence with decent speed, you are basically FORCED to switch out. and since literally EVERY type has some physical offensive presence, all it takes is one smart play to lose a TON of momentum for you team. and if they can pivot with said offensive presence, well... you're basically forced to bend to their will at that point. This is AWFUL for its viability since even though this thing can pick up kills, in the end, losing momentum is whats going to swing the game in their favor.
next,
ITS LACKLUSTER SPEED
why this is bad: having that lackluster speed is TERRIBLE FOR ITS VIABILITY, since the only way its getting an attack of is in the SLIM chance it outspeeds or HOPING it can live an attack and still have enough hp to attack again. the only way around this is to throw a scarf on it. and by doing that you are sacrificing VALUABLE power. yes, the thing is still strong, but it basically LOSES its wall breaking abilities without lifeorb/specs/band and once it loses its wallbreaking abilities, it basically becomes a sweeper. and at the sweeper position ITS OUTCLASSED BY BOTH TYPES THAT ITS ON.
lastly, but least.
HIS PAPER NAPKIN DEFENSE
why this is bad: his defense is 80/60. and on paper you would think its not TOO bad. you would be wrong. very, very wrong. This TRASH defense means that he takes absolutely MASSIVE damage from PRIORITY MOVES. lets not even think about super effective moves.
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 192-227 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lets take this calc for example. this means that if you even take 30% then you are put into range of PRIORITY MACH PUNCH. lets not forget the fact, that this man is QUAD WEAK TO A PIVOT MOVE. THATS ABSOLUTELY AWFUL. SINCE THAT MEANS THAT YOU ARE FORCED TO SWITCH ON THE PIVOT. WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE IN A COMPETITIVE BATTLE.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-519625762 <-- not a hoopa example but a pivot switch example all the same. apples does not want to take damage on his wincon and switches on the pivot. every time he does hes forced to sack until he loses.
CONCLUSION
In conclusion, i do not think that this mon should have been banned. do i think its bad? HELL NO! hoopa is a great mon, with excellent power and coverage, but i think that the cons of using this mon are too much for this mon to be considered broken.
In all seriousness guys, i spent about an hour and a half working on this so i hope it gets at least some consideration. thanks.
The base lord himself
lets start with the pros.
Hoopa is versatile!
why this is a good thing: hoopa being versatile means that he is able to run as many sets as you can think of and still be viable. this means that hoopa is extremely unpredictable and can if he just so happens to have that one coverage move thats strong agains your team such as thunderbolt, drain punch, energy ball. etc then he can catch you off guard and score a kill and possibly even win the game if your team is not prepared for such a move.
Why i dont think this is a good reason for banning: While being versatile is a very good thing not gonna lie, for one all of the moves that hoopa learns are common coverage moves. thunderbolt for example. while this is a strong coverage move that hits both water and flying types, if you are using those types and don't have something that can beat this move then that is the fault of the team build and not of the mon attacking. for example, porygon 2 gets psychic. if im using fighting and my team loses more than 3-4 mons to the p2 psychic, i don't care how strong the psychic was, its my fault for not having a fast strong attacker on the team. while this is an extreme example the point is still there. and for those of you that are waiting for me to mention the strong stab moves this thing gets ill get to it in a second.
lets move on to another one of hoopas great traits.
Hoopa is thicc(specially)
why this is a good thing: Hoopa being able to tank a hit before it attacks is HUGE for its viablity since being strong literally means nothing if you can't get a hit off. hoopa boasts fairly decent 80/130 hp/special defense stats meaning that it will be able to soak up the weaker special hits and maybe a little more if you run the bulky variant. meaning that if you are a weak special attacker chances are you arnt doing more than 50% to this thing.
Why i dont think this is a good reason for banning: ignoring his featherweight defenses(for now) hoopa still has fairly off putting 80 hp. meaning that even though hes able to take some of the weaker special attacks does not mean that he is a special tank by any means of the word. as far as tanking a hit goes this is the general rule of thumb: if its a special move that monotype is normally weak to/ if you would switch out with any other offensive mon switch out with this thing.
here are some calcs that will rustle your jimmies:
for dark monos:
bug type moves:
252 SpA Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 384-456 (105.4 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 480-568 (131.8 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 567-671 (155.7 - 184.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
you get the point lol.
Fairy type moves:
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 252-296 (69.2 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 156-186 (42.8 - 51%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 198-234 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Magearna Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 210-248 (57.6 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 338-398 (92.8 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Fighting type moves:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 232-274 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (its focus blast bc sacred sword calcs for defense lol)
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 187-220 (51.3 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(fighting dosent have alot of special attackers lol)
252 SpA Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 384-456 (105.4 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 480-568 (131.8 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 567-671 (155.7 - 184.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
you get the point lol.
Fairy type moves:
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 252-296 (69.2 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 156-186 (42.8 - 51%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 198-234 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Magearna Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 210-248 (57.6 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 338-398 (92.8 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Fighting type moves:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 232-274 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (its focus blast bc sacred sword calcs for defense lol)
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 187-220 (51.3 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(fighting dosent have alot of special attackers lol)
For psychic monos:
Bug type moves:
252 SpA Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 384-456 (105.4 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 480-568 (131.8 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 567-671 (155.7 - 184.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
you get the point lol.
Ghost type moves:
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 136-161 (37.3 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (yay you live. but this is assuming there arnt rocks up, you got no chip damage, and that he doesnt have sludge wave)
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 169-199 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 165-196 (45.3 - 53.8%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO
Dark type moves:
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 133-156 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (once again assuming no chip damage, no hazards, and that the hydreigon doesn't have draco since hes clearly life orb)
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 117-138 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 3HKO
not really alot of good special dark attackers either outside of these two. unless of course you want to mention houndoom.which 2hkos with rocks up
252 SpA Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 384-456 (105.4 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 480-568 (131.8 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 567-671 (155.7 - 184.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
you get the point lol.
Ghost type moves:
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 136-161 (37.3 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (yay you live. but this is assuming there arnt rocks up, you got no chip damage, and that he doesnt have sludge wave)
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 169-199 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 165-196 (45.3 - 53.8%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO
Dark type moves:
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 133-156 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (once again assuming no chip damage, no hazards, and that the hydreigon doesn't have draco since hes clearly life orb)
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 117-138 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 3HKO
not really alot of good special dark attackers either outside of these two. unless of course you want to mention houndoom.
as you can see even boasting that special bulk he still takes quite a bit from special attacks. plus the fact that off of these calcs were from mons that outspeed you (except maybe tapu fini) and you cant be scarfed because i calcd you with max hp. so even boasting that special bulk hes not a switchin for most things his type struggles with already. and that hurts his viability.
and another one.....
great teamates!
why this is good: this is an AWESOME thing to have if you have an offensive presence like hoopa. because this means that the calcs we just went over won't even matter because you can just switch to the respective teammates and not have to take any damage whatsoever. when a threat comes in you can just go to the respective special or physical wall and tank it. it also teams well with teammates offensively as they help him by carrying coverage moves that he isn't able to carry due to only being able to use 4 moves
Why this is not a good reason for a ban: for starters, having great teammates does not mean a particular mon is good. if im sweeping you with octillary and switching out into a respective wall every time a threat comes in, that does not mean octillary is good, rather it means the respective walls are doing their job well. also all of the calcs that I did were not moves particular to hoopa in any way, rather they were moves super effective to the monotype he happens to be on. this means that those moves are likely super effective to the mons that you would normally switch in like mew, slowbro, tyranitar, and alolan muk.
and besides, all of the special walls that psychic has don't provide any resistances to the types psychic is weak to normally outside of jirachi with bug. and all of the special walls that dark has, outside of maybe mandibuzz, lack reliable coverage. so they cant switch in often.
AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST
STRONG AS A MF!
why this is good: hoopa has INSANE psysical AND special attack. and when combined with its massive movepool means that not only is it difficult to prepare for, it straight up shatters unprepared defensive cores. finding any chink in the defensive core and just BLASTING straight through. lets not forget that fact that his stab when hes specs or band is SO STRONG that unless you are a quad resist, it doing quite a bit.
Why this is not ban worthy: as i was corrected before, hoopa is a wallbreaker. meaning hes MEANT to BREAK WALLS. thats literally his job. so its honestly irrational to Not expect a wall breaker to preform its job correctly and break defensive cores, since thats literally what people use hoopa for. heres the thing though. even though he does his job EXTREMELY well, hes still not unwallable. its literally impossible to be unwallable with a 4 move limit, since no matter which combo of moves you use there is always a handful of mons that wall that particular set. besides, raw power does not matter if the mon has no longevity. and with paper thin defense, and subpar special defense longevity wont be very long unless you plan on switching this thing out often.
ON TO THE BAD TRAITS.
is VERY prone to losing momentum
why this is bad: this thing loses momentum. LIKE A LOT. the reason being, that his paper thin defenses mean that if someone predicts you to go hoopa and goes to ANY physical presence with decent speed, you are basically FORCED to switch out. and since literally EVERY type has some physical offensive presence, all it takes is one smart play to lose a TON of momentum for you team. and if they can pivot with said offensive presence, well... you're basically forced to bend to their will at that point. This is AWFUL for its viability since even though this thing can pick up kills, in the end, losing momentum is whats going to swing the game in their favor.
next,
ITS LACKLUSTER SPEED
why this is bad: having that lackluster speed is TERRIBLE FOR ITS VIABILITY, since the only way its getting an attack of is in the SLIM chance it outspeeds or HOPING it can live an attack and still have enough hp to attack again. the only way around this is to throw a scarf on it. and by doing that you are sacrificing VALUABLE power. yes, the thing is still strong, but it basically LOSES its wall breaking abilities without lifeorb/specs/band and once it loses its wallbreaking abilities, it basically becomes a sweeper. and at the sweeper position ITS OUTCLASSED BY BOTH TYPES THAT ITS ON.
lastly, but least.
HIS PAPER NAPKIN DEFENSE
why this is bad: his defense is 80/60. and on paper you would think its not TOO bad. you would be wrong. very, very wrong. This TRASH defense means that he takes absolutely MASSIVE damage from PRIORITY MOVES. lets not even think about super effective moves.
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 192-227 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lets take this calc for example. this means that if you even take 30% then you are put into range of PRIORITY MACH PUNCH. lets not forget the fact, that this man is QUAD WEAK TO A PIVOT MOVE. THATS ABSOLUTELY AWFUL. SINCE THAT MEANS THAT YOU ARE FORCED TO SWITCH ON THE PIVOT. WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE IN A COMPETITIVE BATTLE.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-519625762 <-- not a hoopa example but a pivot switch example all the same. apples does not want to take damage on his wincon and switches on the pivot. every time he does hes forced to sack until he loses.
CONCLUSION
In conclusion, i do not think that this mon should have been banned. do i think its bad? HELL NO! hoopa is a great mon, with excellent power and coverage, but i think that the cons of using this mon are too much for this mon to be considered broken.
In all seriousness guys, i spent about an hour and a half working on this so i hope it gets at least some consideration. thanks.
Last edited:
Bluxio, I haven't finished reading your post yet, but if you're going to use calcs, you need to provide examples for every type matchup. It doesn't help your argument to post examples using a type that already has advantage such as bug or fairy. Since hoopa-u is such an overwhelming force, you need examples for types it mows over on how to counter it. Obviously a STAB bug type or fairy type move is going to 1hko or near 1hko, but those mons and moves aren't available on every type. You also need to provide counter-calcs for how much damage a hoopa-u set is going to do to the opposing mon if they don't outspeed or don't 1hko it.
Hoopa-u 1hkos all the ghost examples you provided. Those are all outsped by scarf hoopa-u, even if it wasn't scarf, it'd be taking 2-3 mons to remove hoopa-u unless they're sash or crit. Same goes with your fighting calcs w/ hyperspace hole and fairy calcs (not including magearna) w/ gunk shot.
Hoopa-u 1hkos all the ghost examples you provided. Those are all outsped by scarf hoopa-u, even if it wasn't scarf, it'd be taking 2-3 mons to remove hoopa-u unless they're sash or crit. Same goes with your fighting calcs w/ hyperspace hole and fairy calcs (not including magearna) w/ gunk shot.
Honestly there's too much here for me to respond to right now, so I'm just gonna pick two of your points that caught my eye (the two I quoted above) and explain why I disagree with your reasoning.
First, you say that Hoopa-U is prone to losing momentum. You claim this can happen if the opponent makes a smart play and switches in their physical attacker at the right time. The problem with this argument is that momentum can be killed by your opponent making a smart play no matter what pokemon you're using. Hoopa-U is not prone to losing momentum; making bad plays makes the player prone to losing momentum. A better example of a pokemon that loses momentum for its team would be Torkoal. I didn't even use it on a lot of my Fire teams in ORAS because every time Torkoal entered the battle, my team lost any offensive presence I had previously and the opponent could breath easy knowing their pokemon probably won't be KO'd during the next turn. Hoopa-U is the exact opposite of Torkoal. Every time Hoopa enters the battle, it creates immense offensive pressure and forces the opponent to think carefully about their next move. If you make a poor play against a Torkoal, the worst thing that could happen is they use Rapid Spin to clear hazards or they set up their own Stealth Rocks. If you make a poor play against a Hoopa, chances are you're going to lose a pokemon.
Second, you claim that Hoopa-U has lackluster speed. I strongly disagree with this statement because of the simple fact that Hoopa is not meant to be a sweeper. It's a wallbreaker, so it just needs to outspeed the walls it's trying to break. As far as wallbreakers go, 80 base speed is pretty damn good. And if you decide you want a strong revenge killer instead, 80 is still a very solid speed stat for a Choice Scarf user. Hoopa's speed is plenty for it to do what it needs to do, which is blowing holes in the opponent's team.
I apologize for not being able to respond to your other points, but I don't have the time to read/analyze/respond to everything you posted.
Ok im back and its time to presentThe reasons i think hoopa should not have been banned.getting roasted by surperior players part 2! Im going to first present the pros and cons of using hoopa on your mono team as well as some of the arguments for hoopas banning and why i think he should not have been banned.
The base lord himself
lets start with the pros.
Hoopa is versatile!
why this is a good thing: hoopa being versatile means that he is able to run as many sets as you can think of and still be viable. this means that hoopa is extremely unpredictable and can if he just so happens to have that one coverage move thats strong agains your team such as thunderbolt, drain punch, energy ball. etc then he can catch you off guard and score a kill and possibly even win the game if your team is not prepared for such a move.
Why i dont think this is a good reason for banning: While being versatile is a very good thing not gonna lie, for one all of the moves that hoopa learns are common coverage moves. thunderbolt for example. while this is a strong coverage move that hits both water and flying types, if you are using those types and don't have something that can beat this move then that is the fault of the team build and not of the mon attacking. for example, porygon 2 gets psychic. if im using fighting and my team loses more than 3-4 mons to the p2 psychic, i don't care how strong the psychic was, its my fault for not having a fast strong attacker on the team. while this is an extreme example the point is still there. and for those of you that are waiting for me to mention the strong stab moves this thing gets ill get to it in a second.
lets move on to another one of hoopas great traits.
Hoopa is thicc(specially)
why this is a good thing: Hoopa being able to tank a hit before it attacks is HUGE for its viablity since being strong literally means nothing if you can't get a hit off. hoopa boasts fairly decent 80/130 hp/special defense stats meaning that it will be able to soak up the weaker special hits and maybe a little more if you run the bulky variant. meaning that if you are a weak special attacker chances are you arnt doing more than 50% to this thing.
Why i dont think this is a good reason for banning: ignoring his featherweight defenses(for now) hoopa still has fairly off putting 80 hp. meaning that even though hes able to take some of the weaker special attacks does not mean that he is a special tank by any means of the word. as far as tanking a hit goes this is the general rule of thumb: if its a special move that monotype is normally weak to/ if you would switch out with any other offensive mon switch out with this thing.
here are some calcs that will rustle your jimmies:
for dark monos:
bug type moves:
252 SpA Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 384-456 (105.4 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 480-568 (131.8 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 567-671 (155.7 - 184.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
you get the point lol.
Fairy type moves:
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 252-296 (69.2 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 156-186 (42.8 - 51%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 198-234 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Magearna Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 210-248 (57.6 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 338-398 (92.8 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Fighting type moves:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 232-274 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (its focus blast bc sacred sword calcs for defense lol)
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 187-220 (51.3 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(fighting dosent have alot of special attackers lol)
For psychic monos:
Bug type moves:
252 SpA Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 384-456 (105.4 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 480-568 (131.8 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 567-671 (155.7 - 184.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
you get the point lol.
Ghost type moves:
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 136-161 (37.3 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (yay you live. but this is assuming there arnt rocks up, you got no chip damage, and that he doesnt have sludge wave)
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 169-199 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 165-196 (45.3 - 53.8%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO
Dark type moves:
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 133-156 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (once again assuming no chip damage, no hazards, and that the hydreigon doesn't have draco since hes clearly life orb)
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 117-138 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 3HKO
not really alot of good special dark attackers either outside of these two. unless of course you want to mention houndoom.which 2hkos with rocks up
as you can see even boasting that special bulk he still takes quite a bit from special attacks. plus the fact that off of these calcs were from mons that outspeed you (except maybe tapu fini) and you cant be scarfed because i calcd you with max hp. so even boasting that special bulk hes not a switchin for most things his type struggles with already. and that hurts his viability.
and another one.....
great teamates!
why this is good: this is an AWESOME thing to have if you have an offensive presence like hoopa. because this means that the calcs we just went over won't even matter because you can just switch to the respective teammates and not have to take any damage whatsoever. when a threat comes in you can just go to the respective special or physical wall and tank it. it also teams well with teammates offensively as they help him by carrying coverage moves that he isn't able to carry due to only being able to use 4 moves
Why this is not a good reason for a ban: for starters, having great teammates does not mean a particular mon is good. if im sweeping you with octillary and switching out into a respective wall every time a threat comes in, that does not mean octillary is good, rather it means the respective walls are doing their job well. also all of the calcs that I did were not moves particular to hoopa in any way, rather they were moves super effective to the monotype he happens to be on. this means that those moves are likely super effective to the mons that you would normally switch in like mew, slowbro, tyranitar, and alolan muk.
and besides, all of the special walls that psychic has don't provide any resistances to the types psychic is weak to normally outside of jirachi with bug. and all of the special walls that dark has, outside of maybe mandibuzz, lack reliable coverage. so they cant switch in often.
AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST
STRONG AS A MF!
why this is good: hoopa has INSANE psysical AND special attack. and when combined with its massive movepool means that not only is it difficult to prepare for, it straight up shatters unprepared defensive cores. finding any chink in the defensive core and just BLASTING straight through. lets not forget that fact that his stab when hes specs or band is SO STRONG that unless you are a quad resist, it doing quite a bit.
Why this is not ban worthy: as i was corrected before, hoopa is a wallbreaker. meaning hes MEANT to BREAK WALLS. thats literally his job. so its honestly irrational to Not expect a wall breaker to preform its job correctly and break defensive cores, since thats literally what people use hoopa for. heres the thing though. even though he does his job EXTREMELY well, hes still not unwallable. its literally impossible to be unwallable with a 4 move limit, since no matter which combo of moves you use there is always a handful of mons that wall that particular set. besides, raw power does not matter if the mon has no longevity. and with paper thin defense, and subpar special defense longevity wont be very long unless you plan on switching this thing out often.
ON TO THE BAD TRAITS.
is VERY prone to losing momentum
why this is bad: this thing loses momentum. LIKE A LOT. the reason being, that his paper thin defenses mean that if someone predicts you to go hoopa and goes to ANY physical presence with decent speed, you are basically FORCED to switch out. and since literally EVERY type has some physical offensive presence, all it takes is one smart play to lose a TON of momentum for you team. and if they can pivot with said offensive presence, well... you're basically forced to bend to their will at that point. This is AWFUL for its viability since even though this thing can pick up kills, in the end, losing momentum is whats going to swing the game in their favor.
next,
ITS LACKLUSTER SPEED
why this is bad: having that lackluster speed is TERRIBLE FOR ITS VIABILITY, since the only way its getting an attack of is in the SLIM chance it outspeeds or HOPING it can live an attack and still have enough hp to attack again. the only way around this is to throw a scarf on it. and by doing that you are sacrificing VALUABLE power. yes, the thing is still strong, but it basically LOSES its wall breaking abilities without lifeorb/specs/band and once it loses its wallbreaking abilities, it basically becomes a sweeper. and at the sweeper position ITS OUTCLASSED BY BOTH TYPES THAT ITS ON.
lastly, but least.
HIS PAPER NAPKIN DEFENSE
why this is bad: his defense is 80/60. and on paper you would think its not TOO bad. you would be wrong. very, very wrong. This TRASH defense means that he takes absolutely MASSIVE damage from PRIORITY MOVES. lets not even think about super effective moves.
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 192-227 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lets take this calc for example. this means that if you even take 30% then you are put into range of PRIORITY MACH PUNCH. lets not forget the fact, that this man is QUAD WEAK TO A PIVOT MOVE. THATS ABSOLUTELY AWFUL. SINCE THAT MEANS THAT YOU ARE FORCED TO SWITCH ON THE PIVOT. WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE IN A COMPETITIVE BATTLE.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-519625762 <-- not a hoopa example but a pivot switch example all the same. apples does not want to take damage on his wincon and switches on the pivot. every time he does hes forced to sack until he loses.
CONCLUSION
In conclusion, i do not think that this mon should have been banned. do i think its bad? HELL NO! hoopa is a great mon, with excellent power and coverage, but i think that the cons of using this mon are too much for this mon to be considered broken.
In all seriousness guys, i spent about an hour and a half working on this so i hope it gets at least some consideration. thanks.
The fact you put losing momentum as a down instead of listing mons that hard wall it really shows how broken Hoopa-U is. Here are some calcs of walls i used being destroyed by Hoopa-U.
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 136-162 (36.3 - 43.3%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 135-160 (44.4 - 52.6%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 205-243 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 348-409 (49.4 - 58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 168-198 (44.9 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 237-280 (44.3 - 52.4%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 135-160 (44.4 - 52.6%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 205-243 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 348-409 (49.4 - 58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 168-198 (44.9 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 237-280 (44.3 - 52.4%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
When it can destroy every wall of every type with a certain set. It should be gone.
Not to mention your argument states that basically you have to get a 50/50 right every time you think Hoopa-U is coming out, otherwise you most likely lose a Pokemon.
viewing your guys's post and using classic 2020 hindsight i guess the momentum argument wasn't the best. im not going to edit it out tho cuz thats a cop out. i want to show my stupidity to the world.
on a real note though guys thanks for responding. shows i didn't make that huge post for nothing.
on a real note though guys thanks for responding. shows i didn't make that huge post for nothing.
I don't have the energy right now to go into your entire post in detail and pick apart your argument point by pointOk im back and its time to presentThe reasons i think hoopa should not have been banned.getting roasted by surperior players part 2! Im going to first present the pros and cons of using hoopa on your mono team as well as some of the arguments for hoopas banning and why i think he should not have been banned.
The base lord himself
lets start with the pros.
Hoopa is versatile!
why this is a good thing: hoopa being versatile means that he is able to run as many sets as you can think of and still be viable. this means that hoopa is extremely unpredictable and can if he just so happens to have that one coverage move thats strong agains your team such as thunderbolt, drain punch, energy ball. etc then he can catch you off guard and score a kill and possibly even win the game if your team is not prepared for such a move.
Why i dont think this is a good reason for banning: While being versatile is a very good thing not gonna lie, for one all of the moves that hoopa learns are common coverage moves. thunderbolt for example. while this is a strong coverage move that hits both water and flying types, if you are using those types and don't have something that can beat this move then that is the fault of the team build and not of the mon attacking. for example, porygon 2 gets psychic. if im using fighting and my team loses more than 3-4 mons to the p2 psychic, i don't care how strong the psychic was, its my fault for not having a fast strong attacker on the team. while this is an extreme example the point is still there. and for those of you that are waiting for me to mention the strong stab moves this thing gets ill get to it in a second.
lets move on to another one of hoopas great traits.
Hoopa is thicc(specially)
why this is a good thing: Hoopa being able to tank a hit before it attacks is HUGE for its viablity since being strong literally means nothing if you can't get a hit off. hoopa boasts fairly decent 80/130 hp/special defense stats meaning that it will be able to soak up the weaker special hits and maybe a little more if you run the bulky variant. meaning that if you are a weak special attacker chances are you arnt doing more than 50% to this thing.
Why i dont think this is a good reason for banning: ignoring his featherweight defenses(for now) hoopa still has fairly off putting 80 hp. meaning that even though hes able to take some of the weaker special attacks does not mean that he is a special tank by any means of the word. as far as tanking a hit goes this is the general rule of thumb: if its a special move that monotype is normally weak to/ if you would switch out with any other offensive mon switch out with this thing.
here are some calcs that will rustle your jimmies:
for dark monos:
bug type moves:
252 SpA Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 384-456 (105.4 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 480-568 (131.8 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 567-671 (155.7 - 184.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
you get the point lol.
Fairy type moves:
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 252-296 (69.2 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 156-186 (42.8 - 51%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 198-234 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Magearna Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 210-248 (57.6 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 338-398 (92.8 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Fighting type moves:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 232-274 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (its focus blast bc sacred sword calcs for defense lol)
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 187-220 (51.3 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(fighting dosent have alot of special attackers lol)
For psychic monos:
Bug type moves:
252 SpA Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 384-456 (105.4 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 480-568 (131.8 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 567-671 (155.7 - 184.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
you get the point lol.
Ghost type moves:
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 136-161 (37.3 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (yay you live. but this is assuming there arnt rocks up, you got no chip damage, and that he doesnt have sludge wave)
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 169-199 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 165-196 (45.3 - 53.8%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO
Dark type moves:
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 133-156 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (once again assuming no chip damage, no hazards, and that the hydreigon doesn't have draco since hes clearly life orb)
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 117-138 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 3HKO
not really alot of good special dark attackers either outside of these two. unless of course you want to mention houndoom.which 2hkos with rocks up
as you can see even boasting that special bulk he still takes quite a bit from special attacks. plus the fact that off of these calcs were from mons that outspeed you (except maybe tapu fini) and you cant be scarfed because i calcd you with max hp. so even boasting that special bulk hes not a switchin for most things his type struggles with already. and that hurts his viability.
and another one.....
great teamates!
why this is good: this is an AWESOME thing to have if you have an offensive presence like hoopa. because this means that the calcs we just went over won't even matter because you can just switch to the respective teammates and not have to take any damage whatsoever. when a threat comes in you can just go to the respective special or physical wall and tank it. it also teams well with teammates offensively as they help him by carrying coverage moves that he isn't able to carry due to only being able to use 4 moves
Why this is not a good reason for a ban: for starters, having great teammates does not mean a particular mon is good. if im sweeping you with octillary and switching out into a respective wall every time a threat comes in, that does not mean octillary is good, rather it means the respective walls are doing their job well. also all of the calcs that I did were not moves particular to hoopa in any way, rather they were moves super effective to the monotype he happens to be on. this means that those moves are likely super effective to the mons that you would normally switch in like mew, slowbro, tyranitar, and alolan muk.
and besides, all of the special walls that psychic has don't provide any resistances to the types psychic is weak to normally outside of jirachi with bug. and all of the special walls that dark has, outside of maybe mandibuzz, lack reliable coverage. so they cant switch in often.
AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST
STRONG AS A MF!
why this is good: hoopa has INSANE psysical AND special attack. and when combined with its massive movepool means that not only is it difficult to prepare for, it straight up shatters unprepared defensive cores. finding any chink in the defensive core and just BLASTING straight through. lets not forget that fact that his stab when hes specs or band is SO STRONG that unless you are a quad resist, it doing quite a bit.
Why this is not ban worthy: as i was corrected before, hoopa is a wallbreaker. meaning hes MEANT to BREAK WALLS. thats literally his job. so its honestly irrational to Not expect a wall breaker to preform its job correctly and break defensive cores, since thats literally what people use hoopa for. heres the thing though. even though he does his job EXTREMELY well, hes still not unwallable. its literally impossible to be unwallable with a 4 move limit, since no matter which combo of moves you use there is always a handful of mons that wall that particular set. besides, raw power does not matter if the mon has no longevity. and with paper thin defense, and subpar special defense longevity wont be very long unless you plan on switching this thing out often.
ON TO THE BAD TRAITS.
is VERY prone to losing momentum
why this is bad: this thing loses momentum. LIKE A LOT. the reason being, that his paper thin defenses mean that if someone predicts you to go hoopa and goes to ANY physical presence with decent speed, you are basically FORCED to switch out. and since literally EVERY type has some physical offensive presence, all it takes is one smart play to lose a TON of momentum for you team. and if they can pivot with said offensive presence, well... you're basically forced to bend to their will at that point. This is AWFUL for its viability since even though this thing can pick up kills, in the end, losing momentum is whats going to swing the game in their favor.
next,
ITS LACKLUSTER SPEED
why this is bad: having that lackluster speed is TERRIBLE FOR ITS VIABILITY, since the only way its getting an attack of is in the SLIM chance it outspeeds or HOPING it can live an attack and still have enough hp to attack again. the only way around this is to throw a scarf on it. and by doing that you are sacrificing VALUABLE power. yes, the thing is still strong, but it basically LOSES its wall breaking abilities without lifeorb/specs/band and once it loses its wallbreaking abilities, it basically becomes a sweeper. and at the sweeper position ITS OUTCLASSED BY BOTH TYPES THAT ITS ON.
lastly, but least.
HIS PAPER NAPKIN DEFENSE
why this is bad: his defense is 80/60. and on paper you would think its not TOO bad. you would be wrong. very, very wrong. This TRASH defense means that he takes absolutely MASSIVE damage from PRIORITY MOVES. lets not even think about super effective moves.
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 192-227 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lets take this calc for example. this means that if you even take 30% then you are put into range of PRIORITY MACH PUNCH. lets not forget the fact, that this man is QUAD WEAK TO A PIVOT MOVE. THATS ABSOLUTELY AWFUL. SINCE THAT MEANS THAT YOU ARE FORCED TO SWITCH ON THE PIVOT. WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE IN A COMPETITIVE BATTLE.
CONCLUSION
In conclusion, i do not think that this mon should have been banned. do i think its bad? HELL NO! hoopa is a great mon, with excellent power and coverage, but i think that the cons of using this mon are too much for this mon to be considered broken.
In all seriousness guys, i spent about an hour and a half working on this so i hope it gets at least some consideration. thanks.
Hoopa-U is not going to sweep teams on it's own; that's not its Job. It's a wallbreaker, with absurd 160/170 offenses and excellent coverage options. Hoopa-U performs this role extremely well against almost the entire metagame, abusing 3 very different (and near-equally viable) sets that hit from both the physical and special sides to dismantle a teams defensive core for other teammates to come in and clean (roles for which Psychic and Dark both have excellent candidates: Greninja, Victini, etc). No pokemon can wall Hoopa-U in it's entirety: that's a fact. You claim that Hoopa-U is "wallable" because no single set can run all the coverage to 2HKO the entire meta, but don't consider that any one of these 3 non-scarfed sets has the firepower to break down 90% of the defensive metagame regardless, even if they lose out on specific coverage needed to hit loose checks like Magearna or Mandibuzz. It's an incredibly effective, unpredictable wallbreaker.
So you need to evaluate Hoopa-U's flaws (which you brought up) in that context: judge it as a wallbreaker, not a sweeper. And your post doesn't do that.
- You criticize Hoopa-U's mediocre speed but fail to recognize it's still fast enough to outspeed the entire defensive metagame (and most bulky offensive attackers like Buzzwole, Volcanion, Bulu, etc).
- You talk about how Hoopa's physical frailty makes it easy to revenge, but don't talk about how that keeps Hoopa-U from performing it's job.
- You talk about Hoopa-U being a momentum drain, but fail to explain how being forced out keeps Hoopa-U from breaking your walls. Not to mention considering the sets that circumvent the momentum drain, like Substitute.
And speaking further on the concept of "momentum drain" I feel it's a buzzword thrown around a lot when discussing slower threats. Hoopa-U may "lose" momentum by being forced out by a robust supply of checks but it also "generates" momentum each time it forces out and kills (or at least severely damages) a pokemon, which it can do with extreme consistency. Not to mention both Dark and Psychic have such an incredible defensive backbone that it's very difficult to abuse whatever momentum you generate off trying to revenge or pivot off of Hoopa-U
TLDR: your post demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what makes the space anus unhealthy by evaluating Hoopa-U as a sweeper and not as a wallbreaker
That said I really appreciate your enthusiasm for the topic and the meta at large: I admire anyone willing to put in the effort to type out a long, thoughtful post like yours and not just post pointless one-liners like "Hoopa u was fine lol what". Keep it up :)
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I wouldn't call it stupidity, sometimes it's hard to notice broken Pokemon when it doesn't counter your playstyle. I noticed that about myself during the M-Sableye OU suspect. I did not want it banned but only because the teams I used and way I played made it less of a threat.
Once you're shown others experiences and opinions it's a lot easier to notice how broken it is.
edit: Bluxio feel happy Tyke 200th message was aimed at thanking you for your interest in the meta!
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