NFEs in UU

[Pratty]

What about Seadra?

It's 95 Special Attack is pretty high for UU, with 16 Pokemon being 95 or better, and only nine of them tying or exceeding Seadra's speed. It also has a respectable 95 Defense, although it's low HP and Sp. DEF hurt it a lot. It has some nice Special moves as well, with Dragon Pulse, Surf/Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Signal Beam and the usual Hidden Power of your choice. While it's probably not suited for it due to only 65 base attack, it can also Dragon Dance and hit things like Regirock, Rhyperior and such with a STAB Hydro Pump from it's high Special Attack to clear them. While I don't see the DD set having potential, what about a Specs set?

 

[Scoopapa]

ive fooled around with a sub Machoke in uu before

Did you get it on video tape?

I can definitely vouch for Gligar's effectiveness as a tank. It was a pretty good stop to Gallade back in the day, and it remains a great wall to Primape (watch out for Ice Punch) and Hitmonlee (renders it pretty much useless). It also is a good way of luring in bulky waters for Toxic, and is a decent candidate to lay Stealth Rock. He won't be your main physical wall on a full stall team any time soon, but he's the only Stealth Rock neutral Flying type in UU, which gives him a niche as a Fighting-type and bulky Ground counter.

 

[Wikey]

Most of the NFE Pokemon usable in UU are just Pokemon that GameFreak had originally intended to be fully evolved but decided to evolve them in a later generation. I could never really grasp how anyone could compare those Pokemon with Pokemon that were always intended to be NFE, like Kadabra. Is it really a fair playing field to call the Pokemon of the first category NFE? Some of these Pokemon have decent BSTs. For example, Scyther has a BST of 500 and acess to two stats 100 and above. That's better than a variety of stage two Pokemon already! Pokemon like Rhydon and Magneton and Duskclops really deserve a separate category of their own.

This.

I always wondered about this in Little Cup. Like the fact that while I was somewhat following LC the two Pokemon people talked about Suspect testing were Misdreavus and Gligar. It's like, last generation those two wouldn't have been allowed in LC, how does giving them an evolution, something that makes them better, make them all of a sudden balanced enough for LC? But I digress...

 

[FlareBlitz]

Monferno @ Life Orb
Naive/Timid Nature, 252 SATK, 252 SPE (or enough speed to outrun base 80s and the rest into ATK if using Close Combat)

-Nasty Plot
-Fire Blast
-Grass Knot
-Close Combat/HP Rock

In theory, not a lot on stall teams can handle this monster. +2 Fire Blast should ohko anything that doesn't resist it (and isn't named Chansey or Specially Defensive Cresselia). Grass Knot is your coverage option against Water types, and it will ohko 248/0 Milotic most of the time after SR + Lefties. A layer of spikes guarantees the kill. HP Rock versus Close Combat is about whether you care more about Chansey or Arcanine/Moltres. I haven't run the calcs for this yet, but I will soon. It seems promising.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Okay, here are some calcs. I basically calc'd out the attacks you'd most commonly use against a common stall Pokemon. Note that the spreads/pokemon mentioned at the beginning tend to be more common. If you want to see more calcs against things not mentioned here, say so. Or do it yourself.

8 ATK Close Combat
against 0/252 Calm Chansey: 94% - 100%
against 252/252 Bold Chansey: 77.6% - 91.5%
against 252/0 Calm Clefable: 90.4% - 107.1%
against 252/252 Bold Clefable: 61.4% - 73.1%
against 252/0 Careful Umbreon: 64.5% - 76.6%

+2 Fire Blast
against 252/216 Careful Drapion: 91.6% - 108.1%
against 252/160 Calm Spiritomb (specially defensive RestTalk): 87.8% - 103.6%
against 252/0 Bold Cresselia: 64.9% - 76.6%
against 252/0 Bold Clefable: 100%
against 252/0 Bold Umbreon: 73.1% - 86.3%

+2 Grass Knot
against 252/0 Bold Slowbro: 100%
against 252/0 Bold Milotic: 84.3% - 99.5%
against 252/140 Calm Milotic: 68.5% - 80.7%
against 252/200 Calm Slowking: 57.9% - 68.5%

I'm not going to do a lot of calcs with +2 HP Rock, it should ohko every single UU fire type in existence. The only other thing you should be using it against is Altaria:
against 252/0 Impish Altaria: 76.3% - 89.8%
against 252/176 Careful Altaria: 59.3% - 70.1%
Oh, HP Rock also takes out Mantine in one hit.

 

[mite b cool]

I think when looking at what NFE's can compete competitivley you have to look and figure out if they are outclassed: Seadra is nothing compared to something like Milotic.

Gligar is the stand out one for me. Nice typing, decent speed, defense and STAB Earthquake, as well as taunt, U-turn, Stealth Rock etc. Snover and Hippotopass are pretty useful for their abilities.

That Monferno looks pretty interesting. I'm just trying to think of anything that it can really set up on, as without any boosts its not really that threatning. also, HP rock does 48.5% - 57.5% to 252/ 252 calm mantine

 

[LonelyNess]

Spiritomb comes to mind when thinking of stall staples that you can use to set up Monferno.

 

[chuie]

I've seen someone use both an Endeavour/Focus Sash Clefable and Cleffa on a sandstorm team. Now unless you have a ghost type on on your team, this is almost certain to take out two Pokemon. Does anyone think that this is just a little ridiculous?

 

[jamashawalker]

I've seen someone use both an Endeavour/Focus Sash Clefable and Cleffa on a sandstorm team. Now unless you have a ghost type on on your team, this is almost certain to take out two Pokemon. Does anyone think that this is just a little ridiculous?

No it is not ridiculous at all...maybe the fact the oppenent is using a sand team....but using a hail team is much MUCH more effective due to the rare ice types...Frosslass and Cloyster are the by far the only ice types you'll see that are NOT being used on a hail team...and for the ghost thing, majority of those teams have a pursuiter

 

[flashbolt]

Ive seen someone use clefairy, clefable and cleffa on a hail team, thank goodness i had a ghost left.
Piloswine is a decent lead in NU and has strayed over to UU occasionally i have noticed.

 

[Lord Jesseus]

There are only a few Pokemon in UU which outspeed 81. Few of them are sturdy and most don't like taking strong Fire or Fighting attacks. What does this mean?

Blaziken?

 

[Toaster]

Has anyone been using Shelgon recently?Personally i used a SubDD set before cresslia arrived and it worked wonderfully.Although shelgon is quite slow and has poor Sp Def and rather medicore Sp Atk (Unlike Salamence),Once you get a dragon dance up it is a force to be reckoned with.Shelgon can come in on most physical attackers thanks to that 100 Base Def.95 base Atk is also nothing to scoff off either especially that Shelgon holds the highest Attack out of all the UU dragons out there.

So how about it?Although it requires a bit support to be effective,it can give some impressive results back.

Shelgon@Leftovers/LIfe Orb
Evs:4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Nature:Jolly/Adamant
-Substitue
-Dragon Dance
-Outrage
-Brick Break
----------------
Here was the shelgon i was using if anyone wants to know the set.Come in on something that it can force out then Sub on the switch.You can now safely Dragon Dance up and sweep.Believe it or not,Few pokemon can actually switch into this thing.Most steel types not named Steelix can take severe damage From Brick Break(Because it can't learn Earthquake ;() And most other walls will be beaten by outrage.

Calcs will be provided later on.But from what i remembered i was really impressed from the Calculations.
------------------------

Alternitavly if you hate Sub and want to go all-out,Check this out:

Shelgon@Life Orb/Lum Berry
Evs:4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Nature:Adamant/Jolly/Naive
-Dragon Dance
-Outrage
-Brick Break
-Crunch/Fire Blast/
-----------------
Shelgon really wished it had a Bigger movepool but anywho.Simply Dragon Dance up and sweep,Outrage and Brick Break are same as above and is a staple on any shelgon IMO.Crunch is mainly a filler,But can be used to hit Slowbro and Psychics harder.Flre Blast is an Option to hit Steelix but if so run 252 Atk/24 Sp Atk/232 Spd.Still you should keep brick break.as Fire Blast means that Registeel laughs as you will not be doing much with only 60 Base Sp Atk.

Calcs will Be provided later too
---------------------------------

 

[flashbolt]

I know ppl who have tried that shelgon and they all report it wasnt very succesful (they also tried the wish variant and tried combining the both), i tried it and preferred the dragonair set i mentionned above.
There are just too many things that can DD better. e.g. Feraligatr.

 

[chuie]

Okay, here are some calcs. I basically calc'd out the attacks you'd most commonly use against a common stall Pokemon. Note that the spreads/pokemon mentioned at the beginning tend to be more common. If you want to see more calcs against things not mentioned here, say so. Or do it yourself.

8 ATK Close Combat
against 0/252 Calm Chansey: 94% - 100%
against 252/252 Bold Chansey: 77.6% - 91.5%
against 252/0 Calm Clefable: 90.4% - 107.1%
against 252/252 Bold Clefable: 61.4% - 73.1%
against 252/0 Careful Umbreon: 64.5% - 76.6%

+2 Fire Blast
against 252/216 Careful Drapion: 91.6% - 108.1%
against 252/160 Calm Spiritomb (specially defensive RestTalk): 87.8% - 103.6%
against 252/0 Bold Cresselia: 64.9% - 76.6%
against 252/0 Bold Clefable: 100%
against 252/0 Bold Umbreon: 73.1% - 86.3%

+2 Grass Knot
against 252/0 Bold Slowbro: 100%
against 252/0 Bold Milotic: 84.3% - 99.5%
against 252/140 Calm Milotic: 68.5% - 80.7%
against 252/200 Calm Slowking: 57.9% - 68.5%

I'm not going to do a lot of calcs with +2 HP Rock, it should ohko every single UU fire type in existence. The only other thing you should be using it against is Altaria:
against 252/0 Impish Altaria: 76.3% - 89.8%
against 252/176 Careful Altaria: 59.3% - 70.1%
Oh, HP Rock also takes out Mantine in one hit.

Waitwaitwait, how will Hp Rock take out Mantine in 'one hit' when despite Mantine being special defensively more bulkier, an Altaria will always survive in your calculations?

Also, if people wanted a wall breaker, why not just use Blaziken? There is only 1 advantage to using Monferno- it can take on bulky waters better thanks to Nasty Plot and Grass Knot. Now compare this with Blaziken's modest ability to take out bulky waters with a combination of Fire Blast and Superpower or HP Electric with Life Orb, its superior stats other than speed (by 1 base point!), and the ability to also utilize Agility, Swords Dance, Baton Pass and Reversal. Consider also that they have the same counters, and you have a Pokemon that is simply better and can do a lot more.

Oh, I guess there's Encore as well but even Raichu has more bulk and speed to do that job better.

 

[Skoot]

Has anyone been using Shelgon recently?Personally i used a SubDD set before cresslia arrived and it worked wonderfully.Although shelgon is quite slow and has poor Sp Def and rather medicore Sp Atk (Unlike Salamence),Once you get a dragon dance up it is a force to be reckoned with.Shelgon can come in on most physical attackers thanks to that 100 Base Def.95 base Atk is also nothing to scoff off either especially that Shelgon holds the highest Attack out of all the UU dragons out there.

So how about it?Although it requires a bit support to be effective,it can give some impressive results back.

Shelgon@Leftovers/LIfe Orb
Evs:4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Nature:Jolly/Adamant
-Substitue
-Dragon Dance
-Outrage
-Brick Break
----------------
Here was the shelgon i was using if anyone wants to know the set.Come in on something that it can force out then Sub on the switch.You can now safely Dragon Dance up and sweep.Believe it or not,Few pokemon can actually switch into this thing.Most steel types not named Steelix can take severe damage From Brick Break(Because it can't learn Earthquake ;() And most other walls will be beaten by outrage.

Calcs will be provided later on.But from what i remembered i was really impressed from the Calculations.
------------------------

Alternitavly if you hate Sub and want to go all-out,Check this out:

Shelgon@Life Orb/Lum Berry
Evs:4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Nature:Adamant/Jolly/Naive
-Dragon Dance
-Outrage
-Brick Break
-Crunch/Fire Blast/
-----------------
Shelgon really wished it had a Bigger movepool but anywho.Simply Dragon Dance up and sweep,Outrage and Brick Break are same as above and is a staple on any shelgon IMO.Crunch is mainly a filler,But can be used to hit Slowbro and Psychics harder.Flre Blast is an Option to hit Steelix but if so run 252 Atk/24 Sp Atk/232 Spd.Still you should keep brick break.as Fire Blast means that Registeel laughs as you will not be doing much with only 60 Base Sp Atk.

Calcs will Be provided later too
---------------------------------

No double edge on these sets? Why not take advantage of Shelgon's ability?

 

[Toaster]

No double edge on these sets? Why not take advantage of Shelgon's ability?

Outrage will be hitting almost everything harder than Double Edge would.Futhermore It has better overall type coverage than normal has.

 

[TEA_DEMON]

No double edge on these sets? Why not take advantage of Shelgon's ability?

Looking at the sets you kinda can't afford to run Double-edge despite it being a good attack. I mean with SubDD, if you use Double-edge > Brick Break you're walled by Steels. On the DD + 3 attack set, you need Brick Break for Steels again, but you also need Crunch for Slowbro insurance. If it was STAB Double-edge it'd be more viable, but Shelgon really does need that coverage.

 

[Pratty]

For me, I've been using...

Shelgon (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 HP/6 Atk/252 Def
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Wish
- Protect
- Dragon Claw
- Toxic

Physical Wall and wishpasser. It takes physical hits like a champ, can stall out other non-Rest walls with Wish, Protect and Toxic, and is overall just kind of a cool dude. Dragon Claw is also nice STAB, hitting a lot of things neutral off a 95 base attack. Unfortunately, this thing doesn't like Registeel.

I've also been using the Anti-Lead Sneasel put on page 1. It's pretty cool, and it's taken out almost every Ambipom and Froslass I've encountered(It lost to one Ambipom because it was a Rain Dance team and used RD instead of Fake Out/U-Turn).

My best lead ever with it, though, came here(Cirno = Sneasel)

Cirno used Fake Out.
Purugly lost 15% of its health.
Purugly flinched!

Cirno used Taunt.
Purugly fell for the taunt!
Purugly used Sunny Day.
Purugly can't use Sunny Day after the taunt!

Purugly used U-turn.
It's super effective!
Cirno lost 64% of its health.
mawile switched in Moltres (lvl 100 Moltres).
Moltres is exerting its pressure!
Cirno used Counter.
Moltres lost 100% of its health.

Cirno used Pursuit.
Moltres lost 0% of its health.
mawile's Moltres fainted.

 

[FlareBlitz]

@chuie

Because no one runs 252/252 Calm Mantine. It gets 2hko'd by neutral unSTAB'd physical attacks for god's sake, you absolutely need to up its physical defense.

Monferno has multiple advantages over Blaziken: Nasty Plot, Movepool, Speed. Nasty Plot is the most important because it allows Monferno to get past some bulky waters that Blaziken simply cannot. Milotic, for instance, can pretty easily beat Blaziken one-on-one, as HP Grass simply does not have the power to ko it, while Surf easily ko's Blaziken back. This is also applicable to Regirock, who has enough bulk to take Superpower and HP Grass and easily ko's back with Earthquake. Monferno easily beats it with Grass Knot. Additionally, Nasty Plot gives Monferno's Fire Blast the power to sweep through a stall team all by itself if its members are already somewhat weakened; for instance, Cresselia only needs a bit of residual damage (pursuit it with something) to drop it into ko range for +2 Fire Blast. Blaziken needs Cress to be at a much lower health before it can score a ko. This is important because having to switch out of a wall with instant recovery is a very bad thing against well-played stall teams. Blaziken has a lot more trouble sweeping, both due to the somewhat lower power of its special attacks and the tendency of Superpower to drop its offenses; therefore, it gives stall much more room to gain back momentum.
And the increased speed from that 'one base point!" is insanely important. It lets you outrun all the base 80s in the tier (Venu, Blaziken itself, etc) and let you smack them hard.
Swords Dance is useful on Blaziken, but it's way too easily walled. Baton Pass Blaziken sucks. Reversal Blaziken sucks.

And finally, let me just say that if you think Blaziken has an easy time getting past bulky waters, you have not used Blaziken against bulky waters. Except maybe Slowbro...and even that's a maybe.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

+2 Superpower OHKOs Milotic with some spikes support iirc.

 

[Slyguy46]

Ok, first off, the Snow Angel set on Clefable/Clefairy/Cleffa is the epitome of laziness. Rather than making an actual team they use a gimick to try and win.

Now that thats over with, I'm trying to think of other NFE's that could be useful, and I'm thinking SpecsElectabuzz could be useful, with its 95 SpA, 105 Speed, and access to Thunderbolt/Thunder/Charge Beam/Discharge, Psychic, Signal Beam, and Thunder Wave/Toxic.

Other than that, maybe Haunter, with it's beast 115 SpA can be ChoiceSpec'd or Skarf'd, with access to Dark Pulse, Energy Ball, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Sludge Bomb, Thunderbolt, and Explosion.

Machoke has pretty horrible stats, but the No Guard/Dynamic Punch Combo is still there.

 

[whistle]

specs electabuzz is wholly outclassed by raikou and arguably manectric, while alakazam or mismagius are better than haunter in almost every aspect.

random pizzaman, I believe FlareBlitz was referring to the mix set when he said it can't get past bulky waters easily. (339 Atk @ +2, LO vs 394/282, 120 BP STAB: 102.3% - 120.6%)

I think the most important thing to keep in mind when using NFEs is to make sure you don't lower your standards by thinking "hey it's good for a NFE" (assuming you are making a competitive team). it's sort of like using OUs in Ubers, in a way. I used Haunter on a bunch of my teams for a while because "it's badass" but then I realized it's pretty much just an inferior Mismagius with Explosion. It was doing well "for a NFE" but it wasn't doing well for a UU -- which is what I was using it as. On the other hand, NP Monferno has distinct advantages over other Fire-types, which makes it a set that is imo worth testing (at the very least).

 

[flashbolt]

OK Ive just been testing Sneasel, Monferno, Shelgon and Gligar for awhile here are the resulting impressions.

Sneasel: Used anitlead. At first seems very good, can totally shut down froslass. Can do well against ambipom, if it attacks you should either KO it or something else on the u-turn. Problems include:
-special attacking leads
-leads that can either SR or attack and you dont know which e.g.rhyperior/uxie and even if you attack you do nothing to them
-the fact that ambipom can run a very similar set that can do pretty well
-Sneasel becomes near useless after they see your set, especially if you didnt get a counter off. Fake Out/Pursuit really isnt much use after the first turns as FO is only strong enough to break sashes. At least Ambi can FO abuse throughout the game.

Monferno: Used Nasty Plot. Needs Vacuum Wave on its sets imo to beat pZ, Swellow (after SR), and other weakened priotity users (azumarill etc). Maybe this would come at the cost of CC? I shall test this further as it shows some promise. However, using this certainly feels like using an inferior blaziken. Monferno has to use a NP (or maybe SD) set whereas blaziken has more options imo due to its stats. The big difference is the bulk, blaziken has some, monferno doesnt. No matter what you do a sweeper will take abit of damage be it on a switch of from a weak priority move or from a faster poke. Monferno cannot take any hit which can wreck a sweep, at least blaziken has a chance on non-STAB neutral attacks.

Shelgon: Used DD. Not viable. Even after the boosts it is too slow, it is unlikely to get more than 1 DD, its attack isnt enough to do much damage. Its defenses arent enough to take much at all. Even resisted Special attacks were OHKOing (and when you are DDing you dont get to choose which attacks you take). Might try the wish set, not much optimism.

Gligar: Used defensive set top set for gliscor on shoddy but i moved speed EVs to SpD. Not half bad. Reliable SR, did well against Drapion, could come in on uxie/chansey blocked TWave and forced them out, hell it even took a shadow ball from rotom when i needed it to and roosted it off. Hyper Cutter means that Arcanine is scared to switch in on EQ.
Big problems are:
-it doesnt do enough damage to sets even if it walls them. It may stop Rhyperior dead but it cant do much to it, so Rhyp can SR/RP/SD whatever it wants. May need more attack EVs, or run a defensive SD set?
-Alot of pokes which it has an advatage over (physical arcanine/blaziken) often run mixed sets.
-Unlike rivals Steelix, Donphan, even Registeel. It cant do anything to Raikou.
With all this said, i think Gliscor shows the most promise of all of them; with knock off/ SD sets still to try.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I think a lot of these Pokemon could be very useful in NU though. Heck, some of them (Haunter, Gligar, Dusclops) have been getting into the top 10 in terms of usage.

I think in UU, a lot of them may struggle around such Pokemon as Raikou, Cresselia, Venusaur, etc, however, for a lot of them, copying the movesets of their evolutions is not the best way to go about things.

 

[Delko]

Shelgon (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 HP/6 Atk/252 Def
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Wish
- Protect
- Dragon Claw
- Toxic

This one does nice. I also used the Iron Defense + Rollout combination once, it worked reasonably.