NFEs in UU

[MagicMaster87]

To be honest, I'm not sure I see the point in Fake Out at all on Sneasel. The most commonly-used leads that use a Sash are Electrode, Froslass, Dugtrio, Cloyster, and Alakazam.

Electrode: You will never be able to stop it from using RD and then Exploding on you, even if it Taunts first.
252 Jolly Fake Out vs 0/0 Hasty Electrode: 20.3% - 24.1%
252 Jolly Pursuit vs 0/0 Hasty Electrode: 30.3% - 36%
24.1 + 36 + 36 = 96.1%

Dugtrio: Leads usually carry Protect to stop Ambipom's Fake Out, so you'll never be able to break their Sash unless they have no idea what moves Sneasel learns.

Froslass: Immune to Fake Out.

Alakazam: If it carries Inner Focus, it will be immune to flinching anyways. If it has Synchronize, I assume it would have Protect in order to stop Ambipom's Fake Out anyways.

Cloyster: Because of the shoddy glitch that enables Rock Blast to kill through Focus Sash, Fake Out is useful so you can take its Sash out AND Taunt it, but once that glitch is (presumably) fixed in Shoddy 2, or if you're playing on WiFi, it won't be needed since even if they Rock Blast as you Taunt, you will live due to Focus Sash and can proceed to attack it.


I think Night Slash or Ice Shard would make a better candidate for the slot. Ice Shard would be useful for taking out slightly weakened RP Torterra, Swellow, or Dugtrio, while Night Slash is simply harder-hitting STAB than Pursuit if the enemy doesn't switch out, or, in the case of Uxie, you are facing a slower U-Turner.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I think Night Slash or Ice Shard would make a better candidate for the slot. Ice Shard would be useful for taking out slightly weakened RP Torterra, Swellow, or Dugtrio, while Night Slash is simply harder-hitting STAB than Pursuit if the enemy doesn't switch out, or, in the case of Uxie, you are facing a slower U-Turner.

No Night Slash for Sneasel unfortunately. Bite is a stronger Dark STAB though, and makes use of Sneasel's high speed.

 

[Reaver12]

I used an anti-lead Sneasel to great effect when Froslass first dropped down to UU, I believe the set is in my RMT posted below. Basically it has a faster Taunt than Froslass and Pursuits to break it's sash, Taunts Uxie then counters the U-turn, and uses Counter on all the Fake Out users out there.

 

[flashbolt]

Got to say, having used sneasel, MagicMaster is spot on. That is exactly what i thought when using it.

 

[jamashawalker]

No Night Slash for Sneasel unfortunately. Bite is a stronger Dark STAB though, and makes use of Sneasel's high speed.

Bite is stronger and with flinch rate is always nice
I prefer Punishment because of all the Calm Minder's in this metagame(Mainly looking at Cresslia and Spiritomb) with the same initial base power as Bite just can be stronger against a stat user, that's if your looking at sneasel to be a revenge killer, punishment is defintely an underestimated move that sneasel and many other dark types can use at their disposal

 

[MagicMaster87]

Bite is stronger and with flinch rate is always nice
I prefer Punishment because of all the Calm Minder's in this metagame(Mainly looking at Cresslia and Spiritomb) with the same initial base power as Bite just can be stronger against a stat user, that's if your looking at sneasel to be a revenge killer, punishment is defintely an underestimated move that sneasel and many other dark types can use at their disposal

Night Slash is 70 base power, Bite is 60, it's not stronger. Anyways, Punishment could work as well, although it doesn't have much use against other leads since they rarely stat up, and it's not very likely that it'll live very long.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Yeah I meant Bite is also a stronger Dark move than Pursuit, though I can see how that might have been unclear the way I worded it.

 

[flashbolt]

Ok Guys. How is this for a theorymon;

Sneasel @ Focus Sash (?)
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Ice Shard
- Low Kick/ Brick Break
- Bite

The only UU pokes faster than/equal in speed to sneasel are Raikou, Ambipom, Alakazan, Dugtrio, Sceptile, Swellow. The latter 4 are all KOed by a SD Ice Shard (no calcs, im pretty sure of it). Ambipom will probably fake out but inner focus will take it. Raikou is a problem, as well as physcial Walls.
Focus Sash is to help it set up, or help it take a single hit from something. I wasnt sure what item to use, perhaps with all the SR around Lum Berry may be better, or a damage reducing berry (Chople).
The calcs below involve the most physcially defensive versions that i think are used (please coorect me, i will run more calcs). Smogon Calculator.

After SD Calcs
Offensive Raikou, Bite does 62.6% - 73.8%. Hope for flinch

Steelix (252/0 Careful) Brick Break 40.7% - 48%. Low Kick 64.4% - 76.3%
Registeel (252/0 Careful) BB 51.1% - 60.4%. LK 81.3% - 96.2%
Cresselia (252/0 Bold) Bite 55.9% - 66.2%
Slowbro (252/0 Bold) Bite 67.5% - 79.7%
Donphan (252/0 Imp) Ice Shard 43.8% - 51.6%.(252/252 Bold) IceS 34.9% - 42.2%
Spiritomb (252/0 Imp) Bite 44.4% - 52.6%. (252/252 Bold) Bite 35.9% - 42.4%
Milotic (252/0 Bold) Bite 33.8% - 39.8%. (252/0 Bold) LK 37.3% - 44.2%

So alot is avoiding a OHKO it will need some supporting but that damage is still good.

It beats some priority users such as Honchkrow and Absol. But loses to Blaziken, Azumarill, Hitmontop, Toxicroak.

Might pair up well with NP Toxicroak which can come in on Milotic, lure and beat Donphan, lure Cresselia drawing psychics for sneasel or weakening it with Dark Pulse. Can also come in on fighting priority. Alternative pair ups could be Intimidate Hitmontop, Sunny Day Moltres.

What do you guys think?

 

[Sheshi]

I believe that Night Slash would be of more benefit than Bite would be. It has about a 12% of crit yes but it does slightly more damage, which means that it could score a OHKO on Raikou if SR is up. Have you done a calc for that because I believe that it may be possible.

Also, definately Low Kick over Brick Break.

 

[flashbolt]

Sheshi hasnt been listening...
Sneasel doesnt get Night Slash so Bite is chosen for flinch rate above punishment/pursuit.
Any thoughts on the effectivness/viability of this set?

 

[Delko]

Ok Guys. How is this for a theorymon;

Sneasel @ Focus Sash (?)
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Ice Shard
- Low Kick/ Brick Break
- Bite

If not used as a lead it could work. Probably bring a spinner around as well to ensure that the Focus Sash will work.

 

[StarWizard]

I'm pretty sure Blaziken is 99,99% superior compared to Monferno. Look at the base stats, jeez. NP + some other special-based moves can't possible make up for the stat loss.

 

[flashbolt]

towriss, look at page 2 for an extensive conversation about NP Monferno culminating in me testing it and concluding, like StarWizard, that it is an inferior blaziken (my opinion, disagree with me if you wish)

If not used as a lead it could work. Probably bring a spinner around as well to ensure that the Focus Sash will work.

I wasnt going to be using it as a lead, more of a late game sweeper.
Any opinions on use of item?

 

[Garganator]

I wasnt going to be using it as a lead, more of a late game sweeper.
Any opinions on use of item?

To be honest I think that Sneasel really needs that Life Orb and calculations you showed to us proves this. However I would go with Lum Berry, if you think that Sneasel doesn't need it. With Lum berry you would at least set-up on pokemon like Spiritomb, Umbreon or Chansey without risking nasty status if you mispredict.

 

[flashbolt]

Life Orb
12.3% chance of a OHKO on Steelix after SR
near certain OHKO on Slowbro after SR (chance to KO without SR)
56.6% chance of a OHKO on Raikou after SR
Guarantee OHKO on Registeel with SR

Those are the OHKOs Life Orb offers. With SR and Life Orb building recoil, one hit from many of those walls will take you down.

I too was thinking about Life Orb but im not sure the stats merit that either. I would be more worried about it being able to set up (suggests lum berry) or being hit by physical priority (chople).
To be fair though sneasel is going to be losing to blaziken regardless as Ice Shard/Bite are resisted and low kick does pitiful damage. I think, Garganator, the reasons you mentionned would incline me to use Lum berry.

 

[flashbolt]

Having tested it, dont think SD sneasel is viable. The damage output just isnt quite enough. Maybe if it got Night Slash? But not otherwise. Dark/Ice doesnt have good enough coverage and Low Kick (necessary to beat certain threats) has very little use otherwise. Lack of Super effective attacks combined with low base power moves hinders his sweeping ability.
I do think antilead and CB sneasel are good, actually i like CB sneasel especially as a lead. Froslass gets exactly 1 layer of spikes (if it has focus sash) and is removed from the game. Defeats ambipom due to inner focus but takes abit of damage (less than waiting for counter, which isnt even a guaranteed kill if the switch to a ghost). Its main use is its ability to beat Scarf Uxie, the most common Uxie lead imo, while dealing considerable damage to normal Uxie. Sneasel usually survives with more than 25% so can then switch out and be used to revenge kill with its decent speed, pursuit (for ghosts) and Ice Shard (for swellow, venusaur etc).
I believe sneasel is the best pursuiter in UU.

 

[whistle]

lead monferno sets up sr pretty reliably with a sash and can encore/taunt/endeavor or just fire blast the opposing lead, and almost always gets my ho team off to a pretty solid start.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Tested Monferno today, pleasantly surprised at how good it was. It plays somewhat like NP Toxicroak, with similar special offense, speed, and Fighting priority, but gets much better coverage and a high powered STAB move n exchange for being harder to set up (not having a water immunity to abuse) and having worse defenses overall. So basically, Toxicroak is easier to set up, but Monferno usually performs better if you manage to set it up.

 

[shrang]

For the people discussing to use Bite/Punishment over Pursuit for anti-lead Sneasel, I really think it should keep Pursuit though. When you Taunt Froslass, it's going to go "Oh shit" and switch out, especially when they see that her attacks don't do much to you at all. To make sure Froslass doesn't come in again and try to set up Spikes later, Pursuit takes her out before she can. Punishment really belongs on the Choice Band set, IMO, as you need the extra power to revenge kill threats. What sets it apart from Bite is obviously the power boost if the opponent has set-up already. Stuff like +2 Atk Scyther and +1 Special Attack +1 Special Defense Raikou are hit for major damage, which means they'll be killed they've taken some damage already (+2 Scyther is likely to be killed after one round of Life Orb damage and Raikou, if it has used Sub, will be OHKO'd and if it's using Life Orb, would be OHKO'd after SR and one round of Life Orb recoil - 433 Atk vs 186 Def & 322 HP (100 Base Power): 250 - 295 (77.64% - 91.61%))

 

[flashbolt]

Yes Monferno does play like NP Toxicroak but its immunity to aqua jet and resistance to fighting priority makes it better imo, though Monferno has a better secondary STAB. I still think it is outclassed by Toxicroak and Blaziken.

Shrang, the problem is that Raikou gets a speed tie with sneasel. Its not a particularly reliable was of revenge killing it.

 

[Garganator]

Having tested it, dont think SD sneasel is viable. The damage output just isnt quite enough. Maybe if it got Night Slash? But not otherwise. Dark/Ice doesnt have good enough coverage and Low Kick (necessary to beat certain threats) has very little use otherwise. Lack of Super effective attacks combined with low base power moves hinders his sweeping ability.
I do think antilead and CB sneasel are good, actually i like CB sneasel especially as a lead. Froslass gets exactly 1 layer of spikes (if it has focus sash) and is removed from the game. Defeats ambipom due to inner focus but takes abit of damage (less than waiting for counter, which isnt even a guaranteed kill if the switch to a ghost). Its main use is its ability to beat Scarf Uxie, the most common Uxie lead imo, while dealing considerable damage to normal Uxie. Sneasel usually survives with more than 25% so can then switch out and be used to revenge kill with its decent speed, pursuit (for ghosts) and Ice Shard (for swellow, venusaur etc).
I believe sneasel is the best pursuiter in UU.

And I think that's the reason that Sneasel needs Ice Punch for his main attack as Bite, even with STAB lacks power. Unfortunately, it's perfect example of moveslot syndrome, as he would love to have Ice Punch/Bite/Ice Shard all in one set. Anyway I think I would go with Bite/Ice Punch/Swords Dance/Low Kick as he's fast enough to sweep and play to eliminate:

a) Dugtrio, Swellow and Sceptile (if you lack Ice Shard). And Alakazam, but Pursuit takes care of this one. Hitmontop is still annoying, but with Ice Shard it beats you anyway. It looks similar with Azumarill. Porygon2 can handle Dugtrio perfectly, tracing his Arena Trap and eliminating it. Or maybe Reflect Raikou to bait it ? About Sceptile - maybe something like Defensive Drapion with Pursuit ? About Swellow - SR weakness doesn't help.
b) Or something to beat steel-types like Dugtrio, Trapinch, Probopass or Magneton (if you lack Low Kick). I think this option is much easier to play with, and I think Sneasel can work even without Low Kick.

lead monferno sets up sr pretty reliably with a sash and can encore/taunt/endeavor or just fire blast the opposing lead, and almost always gets my ho team off to a pretty solid start.

Well it has good niche being the only pokemon with Fake Out + SR combination. But Frosslass is annoying for it, if played right. But I guess I'll try it.

And about Piloswine - someone here tried it ? As I would like to try it (as a Choice Bander and lead), but I'm not sure about EVs (for lead one). Thx for answer.

 

[flashbolt]

Great ideas on sneasel.

Piloswine works great in NU.
Im really not sure about Piloswine's viability in UU with froslass being so common (taunt to stop SR, ghost immunity to Endeavour, resistance to Ice Shard).
Its surprisingly difficult to activate focus sash with so many common sash breakers (u-turners) and the fact that even a life orb return from ambipom with 0 HP/Def IVs isnt guaranteed a OHKO.
But dont let me put you off.
I havnt used Piloswine much so i dont know any EVs.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I've used Piloswine in NU (and also in Advance UU), but I'm also not sure about its viability in UU. Ice Shard has really helped it, but its stats are still pretty poor. It's got awesome STAB though!

 

[Heysup]

Piloswine actually has pretty impressive Atk (base 100) and HP (base 100), while also having decent defense (base 80).

I've used a Piloswine with Earthquake, Ice Shard, Stealth Rock, and Toxic so that I can lure in Cresselia and hit it with Toxic.

 

[pastel]

dragonair seems very interesting, and maybe promisin, I WILL TRY IT....at least on another team...might be intresting.