I read it but wasnt sure what it really ment. Thanks!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 11 - Genie in a Bottle [Landorus is now Uber]
- Thread starter Iconic
- Start date
- Status
I didnt said you had to use cresselia. I just answered to your statement that landorus had no counters, which is false.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 164-192 (40.59 - 47.52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Landorus: 182-216 (57.05 - 67.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
No joke.
CanadianWifier
Run Away With Me
I think the meta right now is reasonable balanced, nothing is TOO broken [everything's manageable] and things are starting to settle down just before Gen VI. I'd really really prefer if thing's didn't change from now until XY, but we'll see if the test reveals anything new..
Landy-I is threatening, but no worse than CB Terrak or Scarf Keldeo imo. It's just another metagame threat you have to prepare for, plain and simple. It has some checks [Lati twins, Celebi, Blobs to an extent] and can be revenged by Scizor/Mamo, the former after a few switch-ins to rocks [which it will be doing if it has U-turn]. I feel it's pretty healthy in the meta at the moment, fitting onto a variety of teams, but not overpowering anything [compared to the other threats, it isn't much - if at all - stronger].
Banning keldeo is a complete and utter joke, but that's for a different thread I suppose.
Landy-I is threatening, but no worse than CB Terrak or Scarf Keldeo imo. It's just another metagame threat you have to prepare for, plain and simple. It has some checks [Lati twins, Celebi, Blobs to an extent] and can be revenged by Scizor/Mamo, the former after a few switch-ins to rocks [which it will be doing if it has U-turn]. I feel it's pretty healthy in the meta at the moment, fitting onto a variety of teams, but not overpowering anything [compared to the other threats, it isn't much - if at all - stronger].
Banning keldeo is a complete and utter joke, but that's for a different thread I suppose.
the reqs need to be lowered. Right now, there are only 2 people who qualify under the ou suspect ladder at over 2000 glicko 2, but the deviation is still too high. right now, no one qualifies to vote.
So you're just saying me Landorus is broken, Jellicent is 2HKO by the modest version lol, then a counter is a pokemon who can come directly without big problem... oh wait Blissey 40/50% ? Jellicent (loooooool), Cresselia (without Sun ?), jellicent can't come on Landorus (Earth Power) only Cresselia can do it, and as i said if the opponent has a trapper it's finish and u're forced to use it with Sun...
Sry but it deserve a bann, and i think Game freak just smoked when they have creates that...
Yeah sure you can get past jelly with modest. Now volca and thundurus-t can revenge kill you. Fair exchange. Also since when does no counters=broken? You still have that horde of revenge killers to deal with which ttar support wont do shit against.
Unfortunately you seem to forget that a Revenge killer remains very frail and can get out quickly, everything depends of the team building, but believe me between good hands, Landorus-i can beat any teams and it's not normal, but i agree with you there. then we talk about Terrakion or Keldeo, but they have a lot of supports to prevent them to sweep, Landorus also has but they're all whooped by Uturn, so according to the set of landorus you can simply lose the match...This is horrible imo.
Dark Fallen Angel
FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
One thing that came to my mind, is that people using sandstorm can take advantage of the fact that the most common Landorus-I sets are special, because Stone Edge can 2HKO Gengar and Gyarados, Earthquake can OHKO Jellicent and 2HKO both Blissey and Chansey. These calculations were made assuming a Choice Scarf set on sandstorm with Stealth Rock (use this if you do not believe on me), obviously sets with Life Orb will hit harder, but Choice Scarf is a faster set.
What I am trying to say is that even though there are good, consistent counters to the Sheer Force set, they can all be defeated by the physical set, making Landorus an all-around versatile pokémon. In fact, the RP physical set has an easier time sweeping (though it requires that you are capable of mantaining sandstorm active all time and must keep in mind that it takes recoil from Life Orb).
I am not trying to say that the physical set is broken. It is the special set that is dominating the metagame. What I am trying to say is that wouldn't that versatility make Landorus a broken pokémon? I remember how some of the Pokémon banned on the past (such as Genesect and Deoxys-D) had different sets and even when you could beat certain set, the other set was capable of beating you.
What I am trying to say is that even though there are good, consistent counters to the Sheer Force set, they can all be defeated by the physical set, making Landorus an all-around versatile pokémon. In fact, the RP physical set has an easier time sweeping (though it requires that you are capable of mantaining sandstorm active all time and must keep in mind that it takes recoil from Life Orb).
I am not trying to say that the physical set is broken. It is the special set that is dominating the metagame. What I am trying to say is that wouldn't that versatility make Landorus a broken pokémon? I remember how some of the Pokémon banned on the past (such as Genesect and Deoxys-D) had different sets and even when you could beat certain set, the other set was capable of beating you.
Cresselia in Sun is a great pokemon that walls all versions of Landorus and has Reflect to defend somewhat against Scizor/Tyranitar's Pursuits if he U-turns on Cresselia's switch. I tried her one/two weeks ago and is funny to use. Cress isn't also useless outside of walling Landorus, Cress walls most Physical Dragons(except Kyu-B, but because the Cube is overpowered) and Mamoswine, which all of them have almost no counters.
But Cresselia relies too much in Sun because of Moonlight and, obviously, it is questionable its usefulness out of Sun. It's absurd to carry Sun only to use Cresselia.
But Cresselia relies too much in Sun because of Moonlight and, obviously, it is questionable its usefulness out of Sun. It's absurd to carry Sun only to use Cresselia.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
Try keeping sun up with sr weak, dugtrio weak, pursuitable ninetales as your only weather option
Of course, ninetales can will-o-wisp ttar and the like, but every time ttar comes in (and poses a huge threat to cress), ninetales must also come in again in order to regain the weather advantage
You make it seem like sun is unviable which is just not true. Also, Dugtrio works against sand better than it works for it. When was the last time a sand team used Digtrio? Think about it this way. You send in Tyranitar as I Sunny Day, then you kill me with Stone Edge and then I send in my Dugtrio. I just won the weather war, since I can also have something like Sunny Day Heatran or something. Cresselia in the sun is amazing, and it isn't hard to pull off with the right support.
Agreeing with Halcyon; the scenario he gave was spot on. Dugtrio is mostly used as a weather trapper, and it is mostly used on Sun against t tar, not along side it. In fact, most sun teams use both Dugtrio and Cresselia, because Dugtrio is great, although it is without question more of a requirement, and Cres is just amazing in Sun.
Cresselia is even useful without Sun. Without weather, Moonlight recovers 50% compared to 66,6% in Sun. It is ruined by any other weather, only 25%. If you lose Sun but there is no other weather, Cresselia can work, except Moonlight has half PP than Recover. If the Sun team loses the Sun, it's not all lost to Cress. But in weatherless is a bad idea to run Cresselia because the presence of weathers different to Sun.
Ninetales can also WoW Tyranitar, Hippo and Politoed on the switch(when WoW hits..., it is useful to burn Politoed to stack residual damage)
Ninetales can also run Protect to ease prediction against Choice Tyranitar. If chooses Pursuit, burn it.
Xatu is also useful to avoid hazards and, if possible, catch Tyranitar on the switch of the spiker and U-turn to Dugtrio, or suicide it to avoid rocks and trap it with Dug. Espeon is usable, but is more vulnerable to Gyro Balls. Xatu is also useful with Cress because Cresselia is so hazard fodder. Xatu has gained Heat Wave compatibility with Magic Bounce this BW2, which is good against Forre and Ferro.
made current reqs in like three hours by spamming keldtar and whining about hax. now for suspect ladder, lol
keldeo + cbtar + lando-i is pretty mindless, though. lando-i has trouble getting setup opportunities but if you can force a switch or get it in on a resisted choiced move, it's basically gg midgame.
One ladder down, another to go. I want to echo Melee Mewtwo and also post my team.
For the standard OU ladder I wanted to use the suspect himself, Landorus-I, and make the team around him. The team, however, used the classic Choice Scarf set as opposed to the special set that comes under the fire of most people. Sand, two great hole punchers which are Nasty Plot Thundurus-T and CB Garchomp. and a Skarmory lure in Life Orb SD Scizor all work together to optimize Landorus-I late game cleaning role. Specs Gastrodon is there because I wanted to try it out. Stops Agility Thundurus-T and Rain Water-spam in its tracks.
Anyway, even with the team optimized around getting rid of Landorus-I regular checks and going with the "unorthodox" physical set, Landorus was not catching things off guard. To be honest not once did I catch a Celebi or any other usual special Landorus-I counter off guard with the physical set. It just does not happen. Most of the time opponents knew right off the bat which set I was using, the physical set, because of the structure of my team. I have come to realize that the same principle is even easier to use when analyzing an opposing team for special Lando. If you see Keldeo + Tyranitar + Landorus-I, even Keldeo+Landorus-I, its a pretty dead giveaway that it is special 99% of the time. You can still scout by luring HP Ice out of a Lando-I. If its Life Orb, you got a special Lando-I on your hands, if not it is physical. So I really think that the point of physical vs special for Landorus-I is heavily exaggerated and I consider it moot.
U-turn is a different story... U-turn I found is very rarely used on Landorus-I, but when it is used it sucks. Judging from the stats, around 13% of special Landorus use U-turn (U-turn percent - [expert belt percent + choice scarf percent]). If you had a Landorus-I in front of you and had absolutely no idea what its set is, you could expect it being a special Landorus-I with U-turn about 8.5% (Sheer Force pecentage * special U-turn percentage) of the time. Now that's really small and is coincidentally the same chance you would find Hidden Power Bug Keldeo (seriously). The usage of special Landorus-I with U-turn and Hidden Power Bug Keldeo are both exaggerated, but this isn't to say that it doesn't work.
I also laddered with a second team that used U-turn Landorus-I with Choice Scarf Keldeo. My opinion is that U-turn Landorus-I does work, but ultimately Rock Polish is the better option overall. U-turn Landorus-I gets worn down way faster because of Life Orb damage with U-turn use and U-turn forcing you out which means taking more SR damage. But with U-turn in hand Landorus-I not only be an amazing hole puncher, but can also suck the momentum out of your opponent's hands if you manage to get Landorus-I on something slower.
My main problem with Landorus-I is that you can easily spam Earth Power to cause massive damage to anything Q.Q Anything that isn't Celebi / Latias / Chansey doesn't want to risk life and limb to take potentially 60+% from any of Lando's coverage moves. Lando really dictates the match once he gets in unlike any other Pokemon because of the ginormous amount of damage he can cause with his immediate, powerhouse Earth Power. You never get that chance to live with a couple of hit points to retaliate with SR down and Sand in the game: you get the sense "this shit is going to die, unless I switch."
I have to disagree with you Melee Mewtwo in saying that Speed is a large issue for Landorus-I. The targets that can outspeed Landorus-I outside of Keldeo and Terrakion are pretty easy to respond to. Lati@s and Gengar are checked by Tyranitar, Jirachi, and Scizor. In Starmie's case you have Rotom-W and really any bulky Grass type / some bulky waters. I find Landorus-I to be in a comfortable enough speed tier that it can safely outspeed the majority of an opponent's team. Of course you always got the option to Rock Polish if you want to sacrifice the power.
Overall I am really having a tough time on deciding on what to do about Landorus. He really warps the defensive aspect of the metagame because Earth Power with his coverage just destroys everything in its path besides a few select counters. On the other hand I haven't found myself bending over backwards on most of the offensive teams I have used. Gengar + decently strong priority / offensive pressure really puts a good stop to it. Sorry if this was a bit rantish.
Tyranitar @ Focus Sash
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Hasty Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Crunch
- Fire Blast
- Ice Beam
Landorus (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Sand Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- U-turn
Gastrodon @ Choice Specs
Trait: Storm Drain
EVs: 124 HP / 252 SAtk / 132 SDef
Modest Nature
- Surf
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass]
Scizor @ Life Orb
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- Bug Bite
Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Garchomp @ Choice Band
Trait: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Stone Edge
- Dragon Claw
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Hasty Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Crunch
- Fire Blast
- Ice Beam
Landorus (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Sand Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- U-turn
Gastrodon @ Choice Specs
Trait: Storm Drain
EVs: 124 HP / 252 SAtk / 132 SDef
Modest Nature
- Surf
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass]
Scizor @ Life Orb
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- Bug Bite
Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Garchomp @ Choice Band
Trait: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Stone Edge
- Dragon Claw
Landorus | +----------------------------------------+ | Raw count: 99112 | | Avg. weight: 0.630426533658 | +----------------------------------------+ | Abilities | | Sheer Force 65.235% | | Sand Force 34.765% | +----------------------------------------+ | Items | | Life Orb 66.527% | | Choice Scarf 19.637% | | Expert Belt 7.683% | | Leftovers 3.578% | | Other 2.574% | +----------------------------------------+ | Spreads | | Timid:4/0/0/252/0/252 17.769% | | Modest:4/0/0/252/0/252 15.726% | | Naive:0/252/0/4/0/252 12.618% | | Naive:0/4/0/252/0/252 9.442% | | Timid:0/0/0/252/4/252 6.339% | | Naive:0/228/0/28/0/252 4.231% | | Other 33.875% | +----------------------------------------+ | Moves | | Hidden Power Ice 83.588% | | Earth Power 67.305% | | Focus Blast 59.942% | | U-turn 41.635% | | Rock Polish 35.005% | | Earthquake 32.665% | | Stone Edge 27.765% | | Psychic 25.429% | | Substitute 4.362% | | Superpower 2.514% | | Other 19.788% | +----------------------------------------+ | Teammates | | Tyranitar +31.775% | | Keldeo +11.554% | | Scizor +10.297% | | Terrakion +7.515% | | Hippowdon +7.394% | | Rotom-Wash +6.224% | | Celebi +4.724% | | Jirachi +4.046% | | Stoutland +4.003% | | Skarmory +3.090% | | Breloom +3.073% | | Weavile +2.623%
+----------------------------------------+ | Keldeo | +----------------------------------------+ | Raw count: 163885 | | Avg. weight: 0.584327836718 | +----------------------------------------+ | Abilities | | Justified 100.000% | +----------------------------------------+ | Items | | Choice Scarf 48.403% | | Leftovers 17.353% | | Choice Specs 12.091% | | Expert Belt 9.197% | | Life Orb 7.747% | | Lum Berry 2.119% | | Other 3.090% | +----------------------------------------+ | Spreads | | Timid:0/0/0/252/4/252 41.240% | | Timid:4/0/0/252/0/252 27.356% | | Modest:0/0/0/252/4/252 8.462% | | Timid:0/0/4/252/0/252 6.489% | | Modest:4/0/0/252/0/252 3.252% | | Timid:0/0/0/252/0/252 1.884% | | Other 11.317% | +----------------------------------------+ | Moves | | Secret Sword 96.714% | | Hydro Pump 72.185% | | Surf 64.995% | | Hidden Power Ice 46.378% | | Icy Wind 31.418% | | Calm Mind 21.949% | | Hidden Power Electric 16.932% | | Hidden Power Ghost 9.651% | | Hidden Power Bug 8.578% | | Substitute 7.530% | | Scald 3.859% | | Other 19.811% | +----------------------------------------+ | Teammates | | Politoed +17.548% | | Thundurus-Therian +8.512% | | Celebi +8.341% | | Jirachi +8.330% | | Landorus +7.539% | | Landorus-Therian +6.496% | | Scizor +6.364% | | Latios +4.674% | | Terrakion +4.525% | | Breloom +3.394% | | Tyranitar +2.884% | | Garchomp +2.585% |
For the standard OU ladder I wanted to use the suspect himself, Landorus-I, and make the team around him. The team, however, used the classic Choice Scarf set as opposed to the special set that comes under the fire of most people. Sand, two great hole punchers which are Nasty Plot Thundurus-T and CB Garchomp. and a Skarmory lure in Life Orb SD Scizor all work together to optimize Landorus-I late game cleaning role. Specs Gastrodon is there because I wanted to try it out. Stops Agility Thundurus-T and Rain Water-spam in its tracks.
Anyway, even with the team optimized around getting rid of Landorus-I regular checks and going with the "unorthodox" physical set, Landorus was not catching things off guard. To be honest not once did I catch a Celebi or any other usual special Landorus-I counter off guard with the physical set. It just does not happen. Most of the time opponents knew right off the bat which set I was using, the physical set, because of the structure of my team. I have come to realize that the same principle is even easier to use when analyzing an opposing team for special Lando. If you see Keldeo + Tyranitar + Landorus-I, even Keldeo+Landorus-I, its a pretty dead giveaway that it is special 99% of the time. You can still scout by luring HP Ice out of a Lando-I. If its Life Orb, you got a special Lando-I on your hands, if not it is physical. So I really think that the point of physical vs special for Landorus-I is heavily exaggerated and I consider it moot.
U-turn is a different story... U-turn I found is very rarely used on Landorus-I, but when it is used it sucks. Judging from the stats, around 13% of special Landorus use U-turn (U-turn percent - [expert belt percent + choice scarf percent]). If you had a Landorus-I in front of you and had absolutely no idea what its set is, you could expect it being a special Landorus-I with U-turn about 8.5% (Sheer Force pecentage * special U-turn percentage) of the time. Now that's really small and is coincidentally the same chance you would find Hidden Power Bug Keldeo (seriously). The usage of special Landorus-I with U-turn and Hidden Power Bug Keldeo are both exaggerated, but this isn't to say that it doesn't work.
I also laddered with a second team that used U-turn Landorus-I with Choice Scarf Keldeo. My opinion is that U-turn Landorus-I does work, but ultimately Rock Polish is the better option overall. U-turn Landorus-I gets worn down way faster because of Life Orb damage with U-turn use and U-turn forcing you out which means taking more SR damage. But with U-turn in hand Landorus-I not only be an amazing hole puncher, but can also suck the momentum out of your opponent's hands if you manage to get Landorus-I on something slower.
My main problem with Landorus-I is that you can easily spam Earth Power to cause massive damage to anything Q.Q Anything that isn't Celebi / Latias / Chansey doesn't want to risk life and limb to take potentially 60+% from any of Lando's coverage moves. Lando really dictates the match once he gets in unlike any other Pokemon because of the ginormous amount of damage he can cause with his immediate, powerhouse Earth Power. You never get that chance to live with a couple of hit points to retaliate with SR down and Sand in the game: you get the sense "this shit is going to die, unless I switch."
I have to disagree with you Melee Mewtwo in saying that Speed is a large issue for Landorus-I. The targets that can outspeed Landorus-I outside of Keldeo and Terrakion are pretty easy to respond to. Lati@s and Gengar are checked by Tyranitar, Jirachi, and Scizor. In Starmie's case you have Rotom-W and really any bulky Grass type / some bulky waters. I find Landorus-I to be in a comfortable enough speed tier that it can safely outspeed the majority of an opponent's team. Of course you always got the option to Rock Polish if you want to sacrifice the power.
Overall I am really having a tough time on deciding on what to do about Landorus. He really warps the defensive aspect of the metagame because Earth Power with his coverage just destroys everything in its path besides a few select counters. On the other hand I haven't found myself bending over backwards on most of the offensive teams I have used. Gengar + decently strong priority / offensive pressure really puts a good stop to it. Sorry if this was a bit rantish.
By any chance, did you happen to try the SD/RP Sand Force Landorus? A setup set seemed the most dangerous surprise to me since it wasn't just acting as a lure to get past the Sheer Force counters (just running U-Turn over RP kinda already does that) but it punishes the false assumption with a potential sweep. I'd probably have to try it myself but, IDK, 101 for a Choice Scarfer just isn't what it used to be in BW1. (now we have 108/110 as the norm for Scarfmons)
This is absolutely false. Yes, it don't have an especially good bulk, but certainly not a terrible one. At full life, it can survive always to Surf from ScarfLatios and even DM at 88%. Yes, I take this example because while laddering I won a match thanks to his ability to survive this and backfire with HP Ice. Though he died with LO recoil, he won me the match. Something else ? Outrage Mence after rocks. Won me 2 matchs.
Bar Aqua-Jet we don't see anywhere (ok, I saw ONE Azumarill in my last 60 battle) and Ice Shard, he resist Mach Punch, making him relatively safe against a Breloom/Conk trying to RK. Bullet Punch take only something like 55-65%, so even after 2 rocks and one LO recoil, you're still able to survive and hit back.
Definitely not a "very low bulk".
You should remember that the stats you take are from all showdown. Meaning, including people playing not the best. The E-Belt Keldeo is 4th on the analysis on-site with Life Orb as an option, and thus with HP electric as an option over HP Bug (because it is). So yeah, people which won't go on the forum won't know how the E-Belt HP Bug is good for destroying Celebi. And they maybe don't face enough SpDef Celebi to make it worth.
just keeping these here for safekeeping, havent played ou in ages so i just snatched doughboys team :> thanks man, specs gastro is awesome
not sure about landy, i was using the scarf set which was really disappointing, and the CBtat + keldeo + landy core is everwhere and annoying. landy really fucks stall, but stall wont get better imo if its banned, simply due to the sheer presence of other horribly powerful threats. i'll start the suspect laddering soon, see if i prefer the metagame. as of now i'm leaning towards ban though
cool you can focus on things with photobucket
stall [and balance] would definitely be a lot better if landorus left. sure there are other threats but unlike lando there aren't any more mons that completely shit all over stall with no help whatsoever [except maybe kyu-b but in my fantasy world we never bothered to drop a broken piece of shit like that down from ubers].
only played a few games of suspect thus far but from what i've seen the metagame without landorus is the better one.
only played a few games of suspect thus far but from what i've seen the metagame without landorus is the better one.
Keeping these here to be safe. Took me much longer than expected to get the deviation down, however I hardly encountered any lanodrus-i on the ladder other than my own.
So far tho, I am leaning towards not banning him, without the right support, he's no more difficult to deal with than any other good OU threat. And while I do think banning would help stall teams out, not enough to change the metagame in any significant way. However, after playing the suspect ladder for a while, things will become more clear.
- Status