np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 11 - Genie in a Bottle [Landorus is now Uber]

[Lavos]

hey for all you guys still ranting about what the state of the metagame will be like before/after landorus check this out!

post by aldaron (ou council member) detailing the philosophy we ought to be using to frame our evaluation of the suspect. im gonna quote the below part specifically:

There is a very important point I want all of you to focus on: do not vote / post about "liking x metagame better." That isn't the purpose of our tests...the purpose is finding out whether or not Genesect is broken, which is why, in special applications, we'll probably emphasize the ladder that has it included. The ladder without it is for you to better grasp the context of the metagame and see firsthand what happens when it is gone and from this, more completely understand what about its overall presence broke the metagame...not to use as evidence of a subjectively preferable metagame.

tl;dr its about whether or not landorus is broken in the context of the current metagame NOT which metagame you like better. and i understand there are people out there (you know who you are) who are going to vote on which metagame they like better regardless of the actual principle of a suspect test but im posting this purely so this discussion doesnt get derailed even further into "well i like being able to lando+keld+cbtar so im not gonna vote ban"

try to be objective and vote based on whether or not landorus is broken in the context of the current metagame and not on your petty whims. if you like the metagame better with or without landorus, thats great, nobody gives a shit though so dont post about it

 

[Tassa]

Halcion > Baton Pass Celebi cannot beat Keldeo EB HP Bug. Any attack + SR + sandstorm damage (which "delete Lefties") put even the SpDef in HP Bug KO range. It's a good answer in general but not a perfect.

 

[jc104]

Weavile, Scizor and Gothitelle can however all be beaten by Latias, Jellicent and Celebie and have a much harder time trapping these threats while TTar can just switch in without really fearing anything if CB TTar got a safe switch-in these things are dead no matter what while the other pokes all have to predict right or risk getting beaten by what they are supposed to counter/check. Yes Tyranitar may not be irreplacable, but the other Pokemon can't do its job nearly as good as TTar can do them.
I really agree with Shrang when he says that TTar is propably the one that cause the problems since it is completly broken as a trapper and allows to remove certain pokemon way too easy making Pokeon like Latias a complete liability, when i am using Keldeo with TTar 90% of the time i won't switch out when Latias comes in knowing that the other player most likely will switch out directly simply because of the psycological threat TTar is.
Trapping Abilities/Pursuit really contribute towards the whole team match-up issue since shit like Gothtielle/TTar/Magnezone/Dugtrio puts so much pressure on the opposing teams that the other player will at some point over-predict just to keep their counter alive and puts you in an completly unfair disadvantage from turn 1.

Now, I suspect this is somewhat to do with CBtar being much more common than the other trappers, but actually CBtar is less good at trapping Jellicent and Celebi than the other trappers. Jellicent is often faster than Tyranitar and hits it with WoW, while Celebi just baton passes out. Weavile, provided you can get it in safely (which is very easy - Celebi/Latias, for instance, will often switch into volt switch), actually traps more effectively, if anything, thanks to its Speed. It takes out Starmie MUCH better than the others, too. Gothitelle's trap involves far less guesswork (pursuit or crunch?), and it can switch straight into Jellicent for the most part, although I'll admit that it can't trap Lati@s except in very rare circumstances. Gothitelle is more of a keldeo partner, I suppose, since it also removes stuff like Tentacruel and Amoonguss.

I didn't mention scizor, because frankly it's not a very good trapper as compared to the others. Obviously a great pokemon all round.

However, I must say I do sort of agree that Tyranitar is the broken part of the core. Honestly, all trapping moves and particularly abilities make it almost impossible to truly deal with a vast array of pokemon.

 

[Lavos]

how is ttar the broken part of keld/lando/ttar? hes the only one of the 3 that lacks superb coverage and extremely versatile hard hitting power. keld and lando are/have been suspects in the past and theyre the two pokemon that get the most complaints (besides maybe kyu-b) in all of ou, keld can hit from both sides of the spectrum and is stupidly strong whereas lando has unrivaled power from sheer force and can uturn away half its shaky checks. ttar merely is the glue that holds the two extremely powerful pokemon together, evidenced by the fact that it can be and has been passed over multiple times for scizor, weavile, and other pursuit trappers. ttars only real advantages over the other two are huge offensive prowess and sand boosting the sdef so it can switch into latias/latios (usually) without fear. sciz has uturn and priority plus great typing, weavile has great speed and priority. ttar cant boast any of that. basically yes we understand ttar is really good especially coupled with lando and keldeo but overall it is definitely the weakest link and can be replaced with little to no detriment depending on the needs of the respective team.

 

[shrang]

While removing Tyranitar and not replacing it with anything would cripple the core, of course, Tyranitar is actually rather easily replaced by something like Weavile or even Choice Specs Gothitelle. They clearly aren't as good, but they let you use rain making keldeo into a total monster. Weavile is actually pretty incredible at the moment, I have to say. While I was testing, I made the OU half of recs using a weavile team despite some abysmal luck (being haxed to death by a linoone, for instance). Weavile even 6-0ed a couple of teams almost completely on its own. So the point is, Tyranitar is as far from being irreplaceable as any member of the core.

I think you're either understating Tyranitar's abilities or you're overstating his replacements' abilities. Gothitelle and Weavile, while having their own advantages, will never be as good a trapper to Landorus/Keldeo's checks as Tyranitar would be. Let's just start with Weavile. Yes, once it's in, it puts more pressure onto Latias and Celebi and friends. However, unlike Tyranitar, whoever's using Weavile is going to have to predict how they're coming in. You see, Tyranitar could switch into literally any attack Latias throws out, click Pursuit and call it a day. Weavile, on the other hand is completely totalled by Draco Meteor, or Leaf Storm, or whatever. So right now, the onus is on the Celebi or Latias user or whatever to predict the Tyranitar switch-in to avoid getting Pursuited, while on the other hand Weavile, the onus is on the Weavile user to correctly predict how they're bringing it in, otherwise they're getting smashed. Gothitelle is another story yet again. Like Weavile, it's having a hard time switching into strong attacks, unlike Tyranitar. It's also not that powerful either, eg you're getting rid of Latias very easily, since stuff like SubCM versions can even potentially set up on you. This is not to mention everything else Tyranitar brings to the table (sand, ability to check most special attackers, Stealth Rock if you're into support Tar). Don't also forget that Sand Power Landorus depends on Tyranitar quite a lot, and is still a thing.

how is ttar the broken part of keld/lando/ttar? hes the only one of the 3 that lacks superb coverage and extremely versatile hard hitting power. keld and lando are/have been suspects in the past and theyre the two pokemon that get the most complaints (besides maybe kyu-b) in all of ou, keld can hit from both sides of the spectrum and is stupidly strong whereas lando has unrivaled power from sheer force and can uturn away half its shaky checks. ttar merely is the glue that holds the two extremely powerful pokemon together, evidenced by the fact that it can be and has been passed over multiple times for scizor, weavile, and other pursuit trappers. ttars only real advantages over the other two are huge offensive prowess and sand boosting the sdef so it can switch into latias/latios (usually) without fear. sciz has uturn and priority plus great typing, weavile has great speed and priority. ttar cant boast any of that. basically yes we understand ttar is really good especially coupled with lando and keldeo but overall it is definitely the weakest link and can be replaced with little to no detriment depending on the needs of the respective team.

For someone who argues heavily for banning Drizzle/Drought, I am surprised that you can fail to see why Tyranitar is the integral part of that trio. It's exactly the same concept here, but since you asked, I'll correct you. Here's the challenge: Which one of those Pokemon, if you take it away, cripples the trio the most? At least in my mind, it's Tyranitar. If you take TTar away, you're left with Landorus-I and Keldeo, which... are both defeated by their respective counters. Latias OHKOs the both of them while outspeeding them both, for example. On the other hand, if you take either Lando or Keldeo away, you still have a rather fearsome combo, since Tyranitar can still trap *insert counter here*. You see, Landorus and Keldeo, while powerful, are still dependent on Tyranitar to remove counters that completely stop them. On the other hand, Tyranitar's trapping abilities are independent of Landorus and Keldeo's ability to do what they do. This fits our old Support Characteristic. It's really the same principle as why people are calling for rain/sun to be broken. Politoed and Ninetales are both relatively crappy mons by themselves. They are definitely the weakest links in their respective teams. So... why are they the ones that people want to ban? Why don't we ban Venusaur, because clearly he's the one that's OP on sun? Why Ninetales and not Venusaur? It's exactly the same concept.

On that note, I'd like to leave that this is why Keldeo and Landorus are NOT broken. They require that additional support (which could potentially lose the game for them if your Tyranitar gets locked in Pursuit and is then set up on by SubSalac Terrakion, for example), while pretty much the rest of the Pokemon we've banned do not require this. Excadrill may be the only exception to that rule, since it was sand dependent, but that's sort of justified in that Excadrill's power, when coupled with that support far exceeded that of Keldeo/Lando, with the support that they get. Very, very few Pokemon could stop an Excadrill sweep in the sand, while Landorus/Keldeo are still very checkable, even with Latias or Celebi or whatever gone. Every other suspect that we've banned had ways of getting past their counters, while Landorus and Keldeo have very hard counters, provided Tyranitar is not there to trap them.

 

[Pikachuu]

I personally use Scarf Tyranitar over Band T-tar. It's just so much better because it allows you to beat Baton Pass Celebi or put it in very low health and also makes sure you always outspeed Jellicent. While it's not as powerful as the Band variant it still works amazingly well paired with Landorus/Keldeo not to mention Tyranitar does other things as well like as an automatic answer to rain and sun so it's not useless outside of supporting Landorus/Keldeo. Landorus/Keldeo aren't broken on their own imo.

 

[Lavos]

i never said ttar wasnt integral to the core, why the hell do you think its being called keld/land/tar and not keld/land/sciz or whatever? for many teams it is an integral part of the core. ttar is obviously a great glue for keldeo and landorus to do what they do best but i specifically asserted that ttar isnt the broken element of the core simply because it fulfills a particular niche role that keldeo and landorus appreciate to function well. keldeo and landorus are still broken as hell even without cbtar rounding out the combo, they just benefit even more from ttar's presence. and like i stated (and you completely ignored) ttar is replaceable, scizor/weavile can fill the role of a pursuit trapper just fine while also performing some other niche role for the specific team the core is on.

separating this into another segment since it's important: comparing ttar to politoed/ninetales is absurd. first, ttar was a great pokemon even before keldeo and landorus shined. it has been good in every gen of its existence. compare to politoed and ninetales, who are only usable in ou because of their dw abilites. youre comparing apples to oranges here, the apple being ttar (who is great in his own right) and the oranges being poli/tales (who are shit without ability + mons to take advantage of it). let's make this nice and simple with some good old bold lettering: keldeo and landorus independently shit on the large majority of the metagame, and are dependent on pursuit trapping to remove more than half of their already extremely low counter pool, yet tyranitar is not the only pokemon that can fulfill this role - and in many scenarios, he isnt even the best.

you bring up excadrill, which is really ironic, since the argument youre making (keldeo/landorus arent broken because they require additional support to remove a scant few checks) is the same reasoning anti-excadrill-ban people used to justify exca being ou (it isnt broken because it requires additional support to remove a scant few checks). it's even the old genesect argument: isnt broken because heatran counters!!! but then dugtrio ohkos heatran...your proposed solution using your previous logic, then, would be to ban dugtrio. and thats fkn absurd.

 

[shrang]

i never said ttar wasnt integral to the core, why the hell do you think its being called keld/land/tar and not keld/land/sciz or whatever? for many teams it is an integral part of the core. ttar is obviously a great glue for keldeo and landorus to do what they do best but i specifically asserted that ttar isnt the broken element of the core simply because it fulfills a particular niche role that keldeo and landorus appreciate to function well. keldeo and landorus are still broken as hell even without cbtar rounding out the combo, they just benefit even more from ttar's presence. and like i stated (and you completely ignored) ttar is replaceable, scizor/weavile can fill the role of a pursuit trapper just fine while also performing some other niche role for the specific team the core is on.

separating this into another segment since it's important: comparing ttar to politoed/ninetales is absurd. first, ttar was a great pokemon even before keldeo and landorus shined. it has been good in every gen of its existence. compare to politoed and ninetales, who are only usable in ou because of their dw abilites. youre comparing apples to oranges here, the apple being ttar (who is great in his own right) and the oranges being poli/tales (who are shit without ability + mons to take advantage of it). let's make this nice and simple with some good old bold lettering: keldeo and landorus independently shit on the large majority of the metagame, and are dependent on pursuit trapping to remove more than half of their already extremely low counter pool, yet tyranitar is not the only pokemon that can fulfill this role - and in many scenarios, he isnt even the best.

you bring up excadrill, which is really ironic, since the argument youre making (keldeo/landorus arent broken because they require additional support to remove a scant few checks) is the same reasoning anti-excadrill-ban people used to justify exca being ou (it isnt broken because it requires additional support to remove a scant few checks). it's even the old genesect argument: isnt broken because heatran counters!!! but then dugtrio ohkos heatran...your proposed solution using your previous logic, then, would be to ban dugtrio. and thats fkn absurd. so please, stop making flat out wrong comparisons and employing flawed logic to do your dirty work.

If you read what I wrote in the very paragraph above you'd know why I think Tyranitar is the best. Scizor and Weavile cannot beat Latias and Celebi reliably, while Tyranitar can. Scizor gets HP Fired, while Weavile can't switch into Draco Meteor. On the other hand, you can switch your Tyranitar into Latias because it will survive ANYTHING Latias throws at it and Pursuit it for a win. Tyranitar = mindless, Scizor/Weavile requires prediction.

I don't know what logic you're trying to call me out on, but you're failing badly at it. I highlighted why Excadrill is different. If you stop having your head in the clouds and read what I write maybe you wouldn't be banging your head on a point that's already been countered. Excadrill's power with the support that it got far exceeded that of Keldeo and Landorus. It swept teams with more efficiency and you are deluding yourself if you think otherwise. Furthermore, just because Keldeo and Landorus "independently" take out the majority of the metagame, does not mean he's broken if they need Tyranitar to take out the rest. There are so many Pokemon that can "independently" destroy a large part of the metagame. What separates those that are broken are how they deal with the rest of those that they couldn't get past. If you look at the rest of the Pokemon we've banned, none of them, save Excadrill, which I've already explained why, actually needed additional support to do what they did. Attacking Deoxys formes killed things with Psycho Boost no matter what you put in front of it while the support ones had reliable way of being denied entry hazards. Darkrai put your check your checks to sleep. Skymin flinched your checks to death. Swift Swim mons are just like Excadrill, whose power output greatly exceeded that of Lando/Keldeo. Blaziken kill shit just through overpowered attack and speed, no matter what you put in front of it. Garchomp dodged your checks' attacks. Thundurus paralysed the shit out of your revenge killers. Genesect didn't care that Heatran countered it because all it did was U-turn and revenge kill threats all day and that Heatran didn't do anything that stopped it doing that. Tornadus-T couldn't be killed because it just switched out and gained health for free and outlasted its counters simply because you couldn't kill it. Do you honestly think Landorus and Keldeo are on that level? How the hell do they defeat Latias, through significant hax or otherwise? How the hell does Lando beat Gyarados with that special set? How does Keldeo beat Slowking, or Amoonguss? How are they broken if you don't chuck a Pursuit user in there? How do they sweep?

I don't see how you can confuse my comparison between rain/sun either. So what if Politoed and Ninetales are crappy without it while Tyranitar is not? What relevance does that have? The fact is that rain/sun sweepers depend on Politoed and Ninetales and Lando/Keldeo does on Pursuit users. The power levels of Politoed, Ninetales and Tyranitar has no bearing on this whatsoever. I know you never said that Tyranitar is integral to the core. I'm the one who's saying it, because you don't seem to get that he is. Like I said before, which one of the trio, if you are only allowed to remove one, cripples the trio the most?

So please don't attempt to call me out on my reasoning when you're clearly the who doesn't understand it.

 

[Lavos]

If you read what I wrote in the very paragraph above you'd know why I think Tyranitar is the best. Scizor and Weavile cannot beat Latias and Celebi reliably, while Tyranitar can. Scizor gets HP Fired, while Weavile can't switch into Draco Meteor. On the other hand, you can switch your Tyranitar into Latias because it will survive ANYTHING Latias throws at it and Pursuit it for a win. Tyranitar = mindless, Scizor/Weavile requires prediction.

point being: gl running keldeo/landorus on a rain team with ttar as your glue, sciz can actually pose a threat to more shit, doesnt get eaten by terrak, and weaviles great speed and utility make it a viable choice aswell. dont deny the legitimacy of options that have been proven to be just as good, if not better in some scenarios, than ttar

There are so many Pokemon that can "independently" destroy a large part of the metagame.

id fucking love to know what pokemon wrecks as much shit in ou as landorus or keldeo

Genesect didn't care that Heatran countered it because all it did was U-turn and revenge kill threats all day and that Heatran didn't do anything that stopped it doing that.

holy shit it's like youre making my points for me! genesect = landorus as far as how they deal with their checks goes (note im not saying counters cos im actually thinking about realistic matchup) since they both just take a dump on the majority of pokes and uturn out of the ones they cant. they both have an inherent power boost, good typing, high speed, great coverage, and access to uturn, the last of which fucking breaks them in my mind and the mind of many others if this thread has anything to say about it. send in latias? uturn to ttar/weavile. send in celebi? lol get boned. send in gyarados amoonguss fucking bronzong what have you, im just gonna uturn out to the perfect check to whatever shit you just sent in and youre now in a terrible position for the 2nd turn in a row. and god forbid if what i sent in is another uturner cause if thats the case youre down a poke already.

I don't see how you can confuse my comparison between rain/sun either. So what if Politoed and Ninetales are crappy without it while Tyranitar is not? What relevance does that have?

well in your previous post you said tyranitar was the same thing as politoed/ninetales so you tried to make it relevant and then got smacked so youre backing out of this point but ok

The fact is that rain/sun sweepers depend on Politoed and Ninetales and Lando/Keldeo does on Pursuit users. The power levels of Politoed, Ninetales and Tyranitar has no bearing on this whatsoever. I know you never said that Tyranitar is integral to the core. I'm the one who's saying it, because you don't seem to get that he is. Like I said before, which one of the trio, if you are only allowed to remove one, cripples the trio the most?

i think you need to look up the definition of integral...ttar is about as integral to that core as egg yolks are to an omelet, i personally think yolks are better than whites but some people like the whites better and hate the yolks and hell you can roll with either its still a fucking omelet.

So please don't attempt to call me out on my reasoning when you're clearly the who doesn't understand it.

that would be the first time someones reasoning has both a) been sound, and b) eluded me. too bad you dont fulfill either criteria. ttar isnt integral, ttar isnt even optimal a lot of the time. landorus/keldeo having checks doesnt mean they arent ban worthy: see every ban in the past two years. excadrill, blaziken, garchomp, tornadus-t, and genesect all had checks. some even had hard counters. yet all of them had ways of circumventing those checks/counters via support mechanisms that made them as broken as they are. yet just because genesect could uturn out of heatran and go to dugtrio doesnt mean dugtrio is the broken one, its clearly genesect that is creating the threat and necessitating the heatran to even be brought in, while dugtrio cleans up. same thing with landorus/keldeo: i send in landorus, you send in latias to check, i uturn to ttar, your lando check is now dead. do you honestly not see that youre just making my point for me over and over again?

your argument: holy shit ttar is so broken because it pursuit traps the few things that check the actual threats

my argument: the actual threats are broken and ttar just sweeps aside the few checks so the threats can sweep

take your pick voters!!

 

[shrang]

point being: gl running keldeo/landorus on a rain team with ttar as your glue, sciz can actually pose a threat to more shit, doesnt get eaten by terrak, and weaviles great speed and utility make it a viable choice aswell. dont deny the legitimacy of options that have been proven to be just as good, if not better in some scenarios, than ttar

Still, Weavile and Scizor do not as comprehensively check Keldeo and Landorus's checks (mainly Latias) as much as Tyranitar does. Scizor still gets 2HKOed by Surf / HP Fire, while Weavile still gets OHKOed by Draco Meteor. Scizor can't do crap against Jellicent unless you're running SD Flying Gem, which means you're not running Pursuit any more. I'm not denying their legitimacy, I'm just saying that Tyranitar is better in most situations at trapping Latias or the other Lando/Keldeo checks. Yes, in SOME scenarios Scizor and Weavile are better, but you cannot deny that Tyranitar is hands down the best Pursuit user in the metagame, especially when it comes to Lando/Keldeo's checks.

id fucking love to know what pokemon wrecks as much shit in ou as landorus or keldeo

I'd like to see you define what you mean by "wrecks shit" first, but if you want a list of very powerful Pokemon in OU, you have pretty much all of the dragons, you have Terrakion, you have Jirachi, you have Breloom etc etc. Now before you go on a long rant on how each and every one of those Pokemon can be stopped, I'd like to point out that that would be a futile exercise because I can go ahead and tell you how Landorus and Keldeo are just as easily stopped and we'll get nowhere again. A lot of these Pokemon can "independently" take out a large portion of the metagame, while maybe not to same extent as Landorus and Keldeo, but "independently" all the same. Similarly, you can have something like Choice Scarf Salamence being able to "independently" sweep, but it was "dependent" on Magnezone to get rid of Skarmory for example. That's the point of teambuilding in the first place. You were mixing up what I meant by "independent" and "dependent". What I meant was that Landorus and Keldeo are "dependent" on Tyranitar, or whatever means of Pursuit you had to get rid of their checks. They couldn't get past their checks on their own. They needed external support to get rid of a Pokemon that stood in their way. Now consider the Pokemon we've actually banned. Something like Thundurus did not always need external support to get rid of a portion of its checks (in this case revenge killers) because it could paralyse them with Thunder Wave and he'd win 25% of the time. Garchomp did not always need external support because his checks would miss him 20% of the time. Landorus and Keldeo cannot do this. With the checks that everyone has been complaining about, Latias wins 100% of the time against them, minus crits. Jellicent wins very close to 100% of the time. So does Slowking, or whatever. Again, the question I'd like to ask before judging any Pokemon to be broken would be: Can this Pokemon, with one set, plus or minus small variances, defeat most of the metagame, while having a way of getting past its counters/checks by itself? I don't think Landorus or Keldeo can satisfy that last criteria.

holy shit it's like youre making my points for me! genesect = landorus as far as how they deal with their checks goes (note im not saying counters cos im actually thinking about realistic matchup) since they both just take a dump on the majority of pokes and uturn out of the ones they cant. they both have an inherent power boost, good typing, high speed, great coverage, and access to uturn, the last of which fucking breaks them in my mind and the mind of many others if this thread has anything to say about it. send in latias? uturn to ttar/weavile. send in celebi? lol get boned. send in gyarados amoonguss fucking bronzong what have you, im just gonna uturn out to the perfect check to whatever shit you just sent in and youre now in a terrible position for the 2nd turn in a row. and god forbid if what i sent in is another uturner cause if thats the case youre down a poke already.

I was about to go straight onto this from the point above, so I'll talk about Genesect and U-turn now. I know you went into the "Genesect is hard countered by Heatran does not mean it's not broken" argument, but I'll rebutt that by comparing Landorus and Genesect's roles. On one hand, Genesect's job was as a pivot that did most of its damage via U-turn, plus an occasional revenge kill here and there. This, in effect, meant that Heatran was not a counter in the sense that it stopped what Genesect did. Heatran could not stop it U-turning or revenge killing things. Genesect's job was not one of a sweeper, unless you got into Rock Polish Genesect. On the other hand, Landorus's job IS one of a sweeper. It IS one of a powerful attacker, not a pivot. This is why you cannot apply the same arguments to Genesect as you can to Landorus.

Another thing to note here is that Landorus' U-turn is completely different from Genesect's. Landorus' U-turn is not very strong. Genesect's is. I remember calling you out on this in the Tornadus-T thread too. See Genesect did most of its damage through U-turn. Landorus does not. U-turn is not Landorus' spamming attack. Earth Power is. Genesect did the whole "I pull off free damage WHILE U-turning to a counter" while Landorus can't do both at the same time. This is not to mention that Landorus can't even go "oops Latias just switched into my Earth Power, bye U-turn" because it's killed by Latias before it can do so. Now you can say Landorus can U-turn as Latias comes in, but that's not the same as Genesect spamming U-turn BECAUSE that's his spam attack of choice. To U-turn out of Latias from Landorus-I meant you had to predict the Latias switch-in. That's not the case with Genesect, since U-turn was going to be your spam move of choice anyway. I can give a little of leeway to Tornadus-T because it COULD pull off U-turn most of the time due to how fast it was, but with Landorus and 331 top Speed? Nope. Just because a Pokemon has the option of U-turning out of something does not necessarily mean it's broken you know. You could potentially say the same about a boatload of Pokemon. Hey Azelf outspeeds and 2HKOs a huge proportion of the metagame, while being able to U-turn out of its counters, does that make it broken?

well in your previous post you said tyranitar was the same thing as politoed/ninetales so you tried to make it relevant and then got smacked so youre backing out of this point but ok

What? You're the one who's backing out of this argument. I was just pointing out what you presented was irrelevant. I'm seriously questioning whether you're even reading what I'm writing here. If not, please stop arguing. I was saying that Tyranitar's previous status as a good Pokemon and Politoed and Ninetales's previous status is irrelevant in the fact that they provide vital support to certain Pokemon, pushing them to an overpowered status. It boils down to a very simple concept, which I don't understand how it has eluded you. Maybe if I put it down into equations you'd understand.

Rain sweeper by itself =/= broken
Rain sweeper + rain = broken
Sun sweeper by itself =/= broken
Sun sweeper + sun = broken

From what I've seen you argue, is that rain/sun is broken.

Now, here's a condition that I'm setting:
- (in my previous paragraph) I defined a sweeper (to which Landorus fits) to be broken if it could sweep most of the metagame by itself while getting past its checks in some way (or made a check unreliable in defeating said sweeper by itself)

Now think about this one:

Landorus cannot get past its checks (Latias, Gyarados, Moltres, etc etc) by itself - See above condition
Hypothetically, Tyranitar can get rid Landorus's checks (it actually can't, but let's just pretend it can)
Therefore, Landorus + Tyranitar = Broken

So after all that, consistent with what you've been saying with rain/sun, which one is the broken part of that combination?

i think you need to look up the definition of integral...ttar is about as integral to that core as egg yolks are to an omelet, i personally think yolks are better than whites but some people like the whites better and hate the yolks and hell you can roll with either its still a fucking omelet.

Okay, I'll define my definition of integral here. It's basically... Can this combination function when you remove the part which I call "integral"? Can Landorus and Keldeo get past its counters without Tyranitar? No you can't. They're both defeated by Latias, or Gyarados, or Mantine, or whatever. Tyranitar is the one facilitating the sweeps coming from Landorus and Keldeo, just like how sun facilitates a sweep from Venusaur, for example.

that would be the first time someones reasoning has both a) been sound, and b) eluded me. too bad you dont fulfill either criteria. ttar isnt integral, ttar isnt even optimal a lot of the time. landorus/keldeo having checks doesnt mean they arent ban worthy: see every ban in the past two years. excadrill, blaziken, garchomp, tornadus-t, and genesect all had checks. some even had hard counters. yet all of them had ways of circumventing those checks/counters via support mechanisms that made them as broken as they are. yet just because genesect could uturn out of heatran and go to dugtrio doesnt mean dugtrio is the broken one, its clearly genesect that is creating the threat and necessitating the heatran to even be brought in, while dugtrio cleans up. same thing with landorus/keldeo: i send in landorus, you send in latias to check, i uturn to ttar, your lando check is now dead. do you honestly not see that youre just making my point for me over and over again?

your argument: holy shit ttar is so broken because it pursuit traps the few things that check the actual threats

my argument: the actual threats are broken and ttar just sweeps aside the few checks so the threats can sweep

take your pick voters!!

Again, you completely misunderstood my point. Anyway, my biggest concern about this who thing is that you HAVE to use Tyranitar or whatever Pursuit user to get rid of Landorus's checks. If you look at the Pokemon we've banned, they can get past their checks on their own. You cannot make the argument just because a Pokemon is broken while needing external support to sweep. With the exception of Excadrill, in which I've already addressed, none of the Pokemon that we've banned so far really needs external support to get past its checks. I'm not bringing Tyranitar into the question because I think Tyranitar itself is broken, but to highlight that you cannot judge a Pokemon's ability by its performance in a combo. It just has too many confounding errors and bias associated with it. How DO you know that Landorus is the one that's broken and not Tyranitar? I'll give you an example:

(Hypothetically) A study has showed that chronic alcoholics have a higher risk of developing a heart attack before the age of 60. However, it was later found that chronic alcoholics were more likely than control to smoke cigarettes, which also has a proven link to heart disease. Can you conclude that chronic alcoholism leads to heart disease?

Now, I know that analogy is not strictly relevant to our topic of Landorus, but the point I want you to take from this is that when you judge a Pokemon in combination, you introduce all sorts of bias and confounding factors that limits your ability to make an informed decision about a Pokemon's true broken state. If you were to judge Landorus's (or Keldeo's, or any other suspect), you should look at it by itself. Otherwise, you must adjust for potential biases by looking at stuff like opportunity cost, like what I did with Excadrill.

 

[ginganinja]

Can this Pokemon, with one set, plus or minus small variances, defeat most of the metagame, while having a way of getting past its counters/checks by itself? I don't think Landorus or Keldeo can satisfy that last criteria.

Technically both Keldeo AND Landorus-I have sets that can do this. For instance U-Turn Landorus is almost impossible to switch into, since it can U-Turn the Celebi switch (one of the top 2 most common + reliable counters to it) and U-Turn the Latias if it can predict the switch (which it can easily do thanks to the risk reward favouring the Landorus-I player). It can Focus Blast the Rotom-W (ie a common "check" in the meta) and then U-Turn out safe in the knowledge that next time, Rotom-W cannot switch in. It can use Focus Blast as Gyarados switches in, takes SR damage + the Focus Blast and then Landorus-U Turns out to a Gyarados counter / check and around and around it goes. U-Turn allows Landorus-T to get past its checks and counters, in a similar manner to how Tornadus-T and Genesect would get past there counters. Sure, individually, they might have been hard walled by something, but they would simply U-Turn out to a trapper (Dugtrio being the common one), who would then either kill or cripple the pokemon in question, and then would go on to wreak havok.

Keldeo is a little trickier but Expert Belt still accomplishes most of the above. For instance, Expert Belt allows it to bypass Celebi, and allows it to beat Lati@s most of the time (speaking from an actual laddering / battling perspective rather than a theorymon perspective) thanks to SR + Icy Wind + HP Bug. In a practical sense, while Latias counters Keldeo on paper, the truth is the Expert Belt set usually comes out on top, especially if it has access to a Tyranitar which is always keen to switch in on a recover and get the KO. Same thing goes for Weavile. Sure, Keldeo has more counters than Landorus-I, for instance Jellicent, Amoonguss and Toxicroak come to mind, the difficulty however, is that many of the perhapes lesser used counters are not as good as stuff like Celebi, many of them have obvious flaws. For instance Toxicroak needs rain, Jellicent needs to avoid a Tyranitar Crunching / Pursuiting it, Amoonguss is average in general and so on. I guess with Keldeo we enter a similar situation to the TOrnadus-T test. Yea sure, it might have "counters" (Tornadus-T was technically hard walled by Roost Zapdos and Wish Protect Jirachi), but at what point is Keldeos influence becoming unhealthy for the metagame (which would strongly suggest its broken). That question is for another thread however, so can we please stick to the topic at hand and discuss Landorus. Keldeo gets its own thread in like 2 weeks time lol...

Not responding to the rest of shrangs post cos its just tl;dr

 

[shrang]

The important words that you highlighted are "by itself". When Landorus U-turns out, it's not Landorus that's beating Jellicent or Latias or whatever, but whatever you're U-turning to. I guess you could say over time, you could wear down that check, but since most of the checks mentioned to Landorus have relatively reliable recovery (Latias and Jellicent have Recover, Zapdos has Roost, etc etc), there's again, too many things that could happen before that happens.

U-Turn allows Landorus-T to get past its checks and counters, in a similar manner to how Tornadus-T and Genesect would get past there counters. Sure, individually, they might have been hard walled by something, but they would simply U-Turn out to a trapper (Dugtrio being the common one), who would then either kill or cripple the pokemon in question, and then Tornadus-T would go on to wreak havok.

Couple of problems with that. The biggest one I've addressed already, and that's the question of judging how broken a Pokemon is by their performance in a combo and how that brings in bias and other confounding factors. Second one is that when Landorus-I uses U-turn, you need to drop Rock Polish (generally). Either that, or you're dropping very important coverage. In short, when you run U-turn, you're running a completely different set because you're not a sweeper any more, you're more of a wallbreaker. Anything above 101 base Speed that can KO you (which is ridiculously common) are now instantly checks to you. While I did say "with small variances", dropping Rock Polish is not a small variance because you've changed the set completely. Landorus isn't sweeping anything any more, unless you run RP + U-turn, which is suboptimal at best and would require even greater support than just Tyranitar.

Onto Landorus itself though, and my main play experience against it. Basically, I believe the reason why I haven't been troubled by it much is 1) I'm a rather offensive player therefore it can't do much against me and 2) (more relevant) is that Landorus, while very versatile, cannot do everything by itself. You can go ahead and give me different scenarios where physical Landorus can beat special walls, U-turn can beat Celebi, Calm Mind to break stall or what have you, what really happens is that it can only run a single EV spread and 4 moves at a time. Basically, my main experience against Landorus-I is that it either 2HKOs stuff that it outspeeds, or it Rock Polishes to outspeed whatever check I throw at it, but fail to KO. There was once where I had a sun team which was theoretically swept by RP Landorus. It got a RP up, and I was pretty much ready to forfeit when I sent in Volcarona (without bulk investment, mind you) without Stealth Rock up, and it took the Earth Power and KOed in return. This sort of thing happens a lot. See the thing about Landorus is that while it 2HKO a lot of things, it can't actually OHKO THAT many things that would warrant it being too difficult to fight against. It can kill or severely wound something, but in the end, it can't sweep my team, OR stop whatever sweeper I have in mind from sweeping them. In short, it hasn't really impacted me much. Sure it could get a kill here and there, but that's about it.

 

[Soul Fly]

It's almost as if it's a sin for a fast pokemon with decent coverage to have U-turn.

Tornadus-T, Genesect, and now this. I just noted how this has become the common criteria for all the offensive bans we've had recently. What shrang says is right. It's not THAT pokemon which is beating its checks but the pokemon that switches in.


But I get where you guys are coming from.


the funny par is that BOTH in Keldeo and Lando's case this pokemon happens to be Tyranitar. So it was in the case of Genesect to beat it's only real counters: Heatran and the Blobs.
So I'm afraid that our focus is off somehow. We're singling the offensive ends of something which forms the part of a 'core'.
This 'core' is Op imo, not the components themselves.

 

[ginganinja]

Shrang you said Landorus could not beat its counters, and I just gave you a few examples of the U-Turn set achieving this. I don't see your point in attempting to argue when I just gave you perfectly legitimate examples :/ Standard Landorus-I beats most of the metagame with EP / FB / HP Ice, and U-Turn allows it to smoke its Top 2 counters: Celebi and Latias. I don't see how you can bring up U-Turn from Tornadus-T and Gene (which allowed them to break past their hard counters with the help of a teammate, and then turn around and argue Landorus-I is a separate case when it uses U-Turn to do the exact same thing.

When Landorus U-turns out, it's not Landorus that's beating Jellicent or Latias or whatever, but whatever you're U-turning to.

As stated above, Im using the same justification you used when Genesect and Tornadus-T were brought up. Both of them had counters and both of them used U-Turn + a trapper to take them out. Sure, both of the above had other strong points that made them borderline broken without U-Turn, but the point still stands - pokemon have used a Trapper in conjunction with U-Turn before, and have been deemed broken / unhealthy and been banned.

 

[Drako]

4 Atk Life Orb Landorus U-turn vs 252 HP/0 Def Celebi: 79,7% - 94,06% (2 hits to KO)

4 Atk Life Orb Landorus U-turn vs 72 HP/0 Def Latias: 55,49% - 65,2% (2 hits to KO)

Landorus rapes its counters with U-Turn. It's not its switch-ins that need to beat them, it can easily do it by itself.

 

[Fallacies]

I'm confused!

Personally I never thought Landorus was that great from using it. This was mainly because of it's speed. I'm still a newbie to this thing and not entirely sure how a suspect test works out. But the general idea I'm getting from reading this is that Landorus is amazing on it's own however requires pursuit support to excel. Is this support the reason why Landorus is possibly broken?

Okay let's say I were to take part in the suspect test which I'm not :). After all that battling I've finally attained the requirements and came to a conclusion that Landorus is in fact broken with pursuit support. What if I took this test again and found out that Landorus is not broken without support. Pushing my meta game preference aside should I be voting ban or no ban?

 

[BKC]

landorus doesn't require pursuit support to excel. it's just that pairing it with ttar makes it even harder to deal with than it already is. same goes for keldeo.

i'm surprised more people haven't run scarf tar so they can screw over bp celebi trying to scout cbtar. sure it doesn't ohko but it does a shitload and after taking a stab crunch off 367 attack cele won't be walling lando anytime soon.

 

[shrang]

Shrang you said Landorus could not beat its counters, and I just gave you a few examples of the U-Turn set achieving this. I don't see your point in attempting to argue when I just gave you perfectly legitimate examples :/ Standard Landorus-I beats most of the metagame with EP / FB / HP Ice, and U-Turn allows it to smoke its Top 2 counters: Celebi and Latias.

You gave legitimate examples, but they weren't addressing what I was talking about. I'll give you Celebi, since U-turn does beat it, but you have not defeated Latias using only Landorus. When I say "by itself", I mean "by itself". When we look at stuff like Deoxys-A, you was able to defeat Scizor just by spamming Psycho Boost. When we look at stuff like Thundurus-I, it could defeat its revenge killers "by itself" sometimes. No external support was needed. Can you please understand what I mean by "by itself", or are you going to continue humouring me with examples that don't address what I'm saying?

I don't see how you can bring up U-Turn from Tornadus-T and Gene (which allowed them to break past their hard counters with the help of a teammate, and then turn around and argue Landorus-I is a separate case when it uses U-Turn to do the exact same thing.

Did you not read what I wrote about Genesect? I'm almost starting to feel insulted at how points that I have made continue to be thrown at me as if they haven't been read at all. Genesect SPAMMED U-turn. That was what made it broken. Heatran being a hard counter was almost irrelevant because it could not stop Genesect U-turning. In a sense, Genesect didn't need Heatran removed because it did not stop what it did best. Genesect was banned because U-turn did too much, not because "hey look Heatran got trapped by Dugtrio". You're completely missing the point if that were the case. As for Tornadus-T, did you not remember how adamantly I was arguing against the whole "Tornadus + Dugtrio = broken" was not a good argument at all? Anyway, if you want me to compare Tornadus-T to Landorus, that's fine too. Let's just look at both their spamming moves. On one hand, you have STAB Hurricane, which was 120 Base Power, without immunities and very little resistances and carried a 30% confusion rate. On the other hand, Landorus uses Earth Power, which half the metagame is immune to. Tornadus-T also outsped like 95% of the metagame, while Landorus is outsped by most threats that matter. You're not using Rock Polish if you're using U-turn, so I can say this. Tornadus-T also had Regenerator which facilitated it to outlast its counters without any external support whatsoever. It didn't need Dugtrio to trap Jirachi because it can continue to fire off attacks, prevent Jirachi from healing through Taunt, come back later and eventually just kill Jirachi just by wailing at it. No external support required, apart from a Pokemon to come in and take weak Iron Heads and what not. That extra Pokemon needed not to anything to Jirachi and Tornadus-T could still win. Landorus is not like that. You can U-turn Latias I guess (if you predict the switch in the first place), but you're not ultimately defeating it with Landorus without external support.

As stated above, Im using the same justification you used when Genesect and Tornadus-T were brought up. Both of them had counters and both of them used U-Turn + a trapper to take them out. Sure, both of the above had other strong points that made them borderline broken without U-Turn, but the point still stands - pokemon have used a Trapper in conjunction with U-Turn before, and have been deemed broken / unhealthy and been banned.

Like I said above, that's a bad argument, one which I will continue to attack over and over again. Just because people have used it before does not make it a good argument. People have once argued that the Earth was flat for God knows how long. This does not make it correct, nor does it make it a good argument. You can make that argument about lots of fast Pokemon with U-turn. Victini 2HKOs the entire metagame, but wait, it can also U-turn out of Heatran and Tyranitar to get them trapped by Dugtrio! Azelf can 2HKO the majority of the metagame, but wait, it can U-turn out of Scizor to Magnezone. Flygon can U-turn out of Hippowdon to Choice Specs Gothitelle, meaning it can also get past its counters through U-turn. This is why that argument is horrible. If you want to talk about why a Pokemon is broken, talk about it by itself, not in conjunction with other Pokemon.

 

[BKC]

if things that need external support to perform at maximum effectiveness aren't broken then we better unban excadrill. it requires ttar/hippo support, after all. may as well get those swift swimmers back on the same team as politoed while we're at it. what about thundurus-i? he was scariest with rapid spinners on its team to compensate for its stealth rock weakness. genesect was worst when paired with dugtrio to take care of heatran, can we unban him too?

just because something isn't as brutally overpowered as deoxys-a doesn't mean it's not broken.

 

[Lavos]

im glad bkc also recognizes the clear flaws in shrangs argument but im gonna point out this statement in particular:

If you want to talk about why a Pokemon is broken, talk about it by itself, not in conjunction with other Pokemon.

what are you even doing? theres 6 pokemon on a team, not 1, and while its always good to evaluate the individual pokemon and how broken it is on that basis, you have to recognize that pokemon is not a game of 1v1 matchups and that supporting pokemont do clearly play a role in determining whether or not a pokemon is broken. as bkc said, by your logic, if we are to only evaluate pokemon based on their individual traits, then excadrill, genesect, and all the swift swimmers should be unbanned. face it, even the strongest of threats needs external support to function at its peak potential, and landorus/keldeo are no different. what makes them in particular broken is their sheer power, excellent coverage, and overall ability to stick a wrench in any team's gears. combined with tyranitar or another pursuit trapper, the core of keldeo and landorus destroys almost every ou-viable team. ignoring the support that pushes it from "great" to "unstoppable" is about as fundamentally fallacious as an argument gets.

 

[shrang]

if things that need external support to perform at maximum effectiveness aren't broken then we better unban excadrill. it requires ttar/hippo support, after all. may as well get those swift swimmers back on the same team as politoed while we're at it. what about thundurus-i? he was scariest with rapid spinners on its team to compensate for its stealth rock weakness. genesect was worst when paired with dugtrio to take care of heatran, can we unban him too?

just because something isn't as brutally overpowered as deoxys-a doesn't mean it's not broken.

I'm just going to ignore the bolded section because I've made that point like a million times already. I have also indicated why Excadrill was banned too, but since you guys can't seem to be bothered reading just one page back, I'll repeat it once for you. The difference between Excadrill and Landorus is also considering their level with the support given. Yes, I know this is strictly not in line with my standard, but if I did mention that you need to also put opportunity cost into account. Excadrill with sand support was monstrous. Nothing could touch it, it could also flinch hax those that could stand up to it to death. This is not to mention that even without sand he could pull Rapid Spin off with little trouble. On the other hand, Landorus with Tyranitar is just Landorus with a couple of checks removed. It's not sporting 405 Attack and 550 Speed straight off the bat. Furthermore, the support that Excadrill needed didn't need to DO anything apart from stay alive, unlike Landorus, who needs Tyranitar to actually play an active role. Is Landorus with his support as broken as Excadrill was with his support? Swift Swimmers are in the same boat as Excadrill so I'm going to labour that point further either. This is the fundamental difference between those suspects you mentioned and Landorus.

what are you even doing? theres 6 pokemon on a team, not 1, and while its always good to evaluate the individual pokemon and how broken it is on that basis, you have to recognize that pokemon is not a game of 1v1 matchups and that supporting pokemont do clearly play a role in determining whether or not a pokemon is broken.

Then I question, why are you all naming individual Pokemon as suspects? Why are also labelling individual counters to Landorus when it's clearly in a combo? Why do you expect Latias or Celebi or what have you to be able to take on Keldeo, Landorus AND Tyranitar? Should you then be prepared to take on shit like Latias + Terrakion, because you know, when you Pursuit that Latias to death, then Terrakion will just SubSD and Salac in your face and wipe you out? You can then argue well "you can come up with a billion convoluted scenarios" and you'll be absolutely right. When you attack my argument, I can come around and turn it back on you, because now you're also presuming that Latias is alone while Landorus has team support. Latias ALSO has team support. What if Latias is back by other Pokemon, like Terrakion and Mamoswine on its team? Landorus isn't going to have an easy sweep at all, is it? You pretend it's so simple that "Latias is removed, therefore Landorus gets free reign", just like you're trying to prove to me that it's not Latias vs Landorus. However, what can you attempt to measure through this? How are you in concrete terms, defining what is broken and what is not? You can't. The point of measuring their individual performance is to remove confounding factors such as this. Like I said, if chronic alcoholics also tend to chronic smokers, can you really prove that chronic alcohol leads to heart disease? No you can't. All you can do is to measure individual Pokemon on their own ability to defeat their counters, not with team support, otherwise you're getting team A vs team B and you won't be able to prove anything.

 

[Conflict]

bkc's makes a good point:

Free Excadrill and Thundurus (which isnt much better than Thund-T js).

:)

 

[Lavos]

I'm just going to ignore the bolded section because I've made that point like a million times already. I have also indicated why Excadrill was banned too, but since you guys can't seem to be bothered reading just one page back, I'll repeat it once for you. The difference between Excadrill and Landorus is also considering their level with the support given.

so your argument is:

excadrill = threat
landorus = threat
threat #1 + tyranitar = broken
threat #2 + tyranitar = not broken

...what do i even say to that? it's just wrong. lol

On the other hand, Landorus with Tyranitar is just Landorus with a couple of checks removed.

you do a nice job here twisting your rhetoric to imply that tyranitar hardly does anything for landorus. this is two posts after you vehemently defended your argument that tyranitar makes landorus broken. brilliant move. furthermore, you mention that ttar only removes "a couple" of landorus' checks, but fail to mention that when landorus only has a handful of viable checks in the first place, "a couple" is about 50%.

It's not sporting 405 Attack and 550 Speed straight off the bat.

actually if you take into account sheer force, landorus has an effective spatk of far higher than exca's attack and better coverage to boot

Furthermore, the support that Excadrill needed didn't need to DO anything apart from stay alive, unlike Landorus, who needs Tyranitar to actually play an active role.

funny you bring this up, exca actually needs ttar to stay alive or hes useless, all ttar has to do for landorus is pursuit trap whatever check the opponent has and that's all lando needs, ttar doesnt have to survive beyond that so its a situational advantage. good try though!

Is Landorus with his support as broken as Excadrill was with his support?

better question: why the fuck do you keep comparing him to excadrill? theyre two very different pokemon in terms of the way they play. compare him to genesect, something thats actually similar to landorus. but to answer your rhetorical question, yeah, landorus is pretty broken. not as broken as excadrill, but if excadrill's the standard for bans, we'd still have tornadus-t and thundurus.

Swift Swimmers are in the same boat as Excadrill so I'm going to labour that point further either. This is the fundamental difference between those suspects you mentioned and Landorus.

swift swim is the same as i mentioned above, they need politoed (who dies pretty easily) to stay alive or theyre useless, whereas ttar only has to fulfill one role for landorus and then its lights out. youre once again making my points for me, and for that i thank you.

there is no fundamental difference between, for example, genesect and landorus. thats the best comparison we have right now, they both have uturn, great movepool, inherent power boost, and require support to function to their maximum potential. without support, still very powerful and hard to check. with support, flat out broken level strong and even harder to check, often impossible for some team comps. funny enough, landorus is actually stronger than genesect with a download boost. plus genesect was slower. oh, and genesect got banned. holy shit!! what could i possibly be implying

oh and as for the shitty smoker analogy: this isnt a fucking experiment its pokemon, pokemon is played with 6 team members, we know the members exist and we take them into account, its not like "omg this guy drinks AND smokes which one affected his health??" its more like "holy shit this guy runs 6 pokemon and not just 1, maybe the other 5 will affect this 1 somehow!!!" jesus christ

tl;dr go back and read it. and dont make bad arguments in response pls im tired of typing

 

[ginganinja]

Anyway, if you want me to compare Tornadus-T to Landorus, that's fine too. Let's just look at both their spamming moves. On one hand, you have STAB Hurricane, which was 120 Base Power, without immunities and very little resistances and carried a 30% confusion rate.

I wasn't comparing them. All I was going was pointing out that both Tornadus-T and Landorus-I have a tendency to use U-Turn to remove there otherwise hard counters. Please do not make the assumption that I am trying to, idk, justify that Landorus-I is worse than Tornadus-T?

The difference between Excadrill and Landorus is also considering their level with the support given.

You are missing the point, and this is why we keep going back to your arguement. Your point is that we should look at pokemon in a vacuum, to ignore the support of other pokemon because they are not relevant or something. The trouble is we have numerous cases of pokemon having support which pushed them over the line. You can argue that Excadrill is more broken than Landorus and thats fine, I don't think many will argue, the point is BOTH these pokemon have support, and this is why your argument fails a little bit, because on the one hand you say "lets ignore the support we give a pokemon but on the other you turn around and say "but please ignore the fact we banned pokemon that abused support to sweep before, its not the same thing I swear!!!!"

I apologise if I am offending you, but it really comes across in your posts as as one rule for Excadrill / Tornadus-T / Swift Swimmers etc and another rule for Landorus-I.

Worth noting that Landorus-I actually gets equal to or LESS support than Tornadus-T as well (Due to Torn enjoying Rain + Dug + prolly Rapid Spin).

On the other hand, Landorus with Tyranitar is just Landorus with a couple of checks removed.

This is terribly misleading man and you know it. Landorus-I has a very very small pool of counters, and a significant majority of them are stopped cold and trapped by Tyranitar. Don't claim that Landorus-I needs so much support to function (ie more than swift swimmers) and then turn around and claim the support Tyranitar offers is minor.

 

[ginganinja]

General Note that applies to everyone.

Suspect threads get heated very very quickly, but please keep civil. The OU mods (maybe not me because im arguing in this thread so I could be biased) are watching very closely so please be civil or earn an infraction.

Final Warning.