Gyarados isn't guaranteed to switch into Landorus-I safely, but it still can do so ( on EP or RP ), and once it's switched in, it can beat Landorus-I.. Isn't that the definition of a check? Same for Keldeo, you shouldn't assume specs when trying to check something.. Not to mention it switches into even specs keldeo if rocks are out of the picture.. Pretty solid check if you ask me.
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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 11 - Genie in a Bottle [Landorus is now Uber]
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Gyarados isn't guaranteed to switch into Landorus-I safely, but it still can do so ( on EP or RP ), and once it's switched in, it can beat Landorus-I.. Isn't that the definition of a check? Same for Keldeo, you shouldn't assume specs when trying to check something.. Not to mention it switches into even specs keldeo if rocks are out of the picture.. Pretty solid check if you ask me.
Well I'm talking about the U-turn set here, which I believe to be the most devastating, so you can only really switch into HP ice (which Landorus probably won't be using because it's losing 10% from LO). Earth Power isn't going to be spammed in this situation, but you could argue against that I guess but it's all situational as it depends on what kind of team you're facing. If Gyarados is your only check to Landorus, chances are the Landorus user is going to be U-turning to catch Gyarados on the switch, making it take SR damage, U-turn damage, and is going to be forced out next turn. This is why I believe it can't check this core.
And yes, if you're trying to counter Keldeo you should assume the worst case scenario, that way you have a full proof check. If you're running an offensive team, you need to check Scarf Keldeo (since it's probably the most devastating to Offensive teams). If you're running a stallish team you need to consider the worst and carry a check to Specs Keldeo, because if you don't you're going to be screwed when you run into it.
And I don't know how many times I need to mention this, but SR is a standard battle condition. Yes it can switch into Keldeo is rocks aren't up, but that's like saying Moltres checks Volcarona if rocks aren't up. Doesn't make it a check.
When trying to COUNTER Keldeo, you should assume the worst case scenario, as said before, it's a solid check, not a counter. It can take on most keldeo sets quite well.
If Lando predicts your switch into gyara and goes for u-turn instead of EP/HP ice, it's only natural it's put into a bad situation.. You can't expect a check to beat something when it gets predicted, it's not a counter. You shouldn't expect it to switch into every single move..
I know SR is considered a standard battle condition, but in reality it isn't hard to prevent, I'm not saying we should assume rocks aren't up, but the fact it can switch into even specs keldeo in that scenario just shows how solid of a check it actually is.
I just wanna say that when using U-turn Landorus, predicition is much easier, as if your only check is Gyarados, and it gets caught with U-turn, then it's 100% going to be forced out. This can't be said about most other Pokemon like Keldeo. To predict a Keldeo switch in a double switch into a counter is much riskier and requires prediction skills.
Other than that, I agree with most of your post.
Aerra, you misunderstood - I never said Landorus poses NO team constraints, because then it would not be used in OU, lol. I said that Landorus does not pose overly restritive teambuilding constraints the way Excadrill, Blaziken, Genesect, etc has posed in the past.
Landorus can U-turn all it wants, but the turn that it spends U-turning it's not dishing out its devastating Earth Power / Focus Blast while losing 22.5% of its HP each time. Like I explained in my previous post, I don't see Landorus an effective enough U-turn abuser as Genesect or even Tornadus-T.
Landorus can U-turn all it wants, but the turn that it spends U-turning it's not dishing out its devastating Earth Power / Focus Blast while losing 22.5% of its HP each time. Like I explained in my previous post, I don't see Landorus an effective enough U-turn abuser as Genesect or even Tornadus-T.
except landorus isn't a u-turn abuser. it's a ridiculously powerful special attacker that uses u-turn to bypass its counters.
also landorus restricts defensive teambuilding a lot. the list of mons that can reliably handle it is very small and it can potentially bypass just about every single one of them except maybe chansey [who sucks outside of rain/sun stall].
also landorus restricts defensive teambuilding a lot. the list of mons that can reliably handle it is very small and it can potentially bypass just about every single one of them except maybe chansey [who sucks outside of rain/sun stall].
Just because a couple of morons think Sub DD Gyarados can counter Specs Keldeo doesn't mean its a good move bringing in Gyarados (for example). If you can prove that at a high level, players are constantly switching in Sub DD Gyarados into Specs Keldeo, with SR up, to attempt to check / counter then ok, ill believe you. Scarf Keldeo is potentially a difference story since you can come in after a KO and have a realistic chance at setting up and sweeping but you were the one that posted Specs Keldeo calcs so I guess people are deliberately switching in Gyarados on Specs Keldeo to counter it???
Also again, read my post. I would argue that Rest Talk / Chesto Rest Gyarados (rare as fuck tho) is a good counter to the core, because iv actually come across very talented players that have actually used this core against me, and its exceptionally frustrating. Don't chuck in Specs Keldeo into the mix (when both in my experience and from this thread, id argue that its generally Scarf / Expert Belt Keldeo im seeing with this core). Yes, if Landorus-I spams U-Turn and I keep bringing in Gyarados if SR is up then yea, Gyarados will eventually die, Assuming SS is up, and that I never found a away to get SR off, and that SS is up, then yea, ill eventually die after a few U-Turns. I just want to correct a few things.
-Firstly, your 3 man core, has now become a 4 man core, with CB or Scarf Tar / Ebelt or Scarf Keldeo / U-Turn Landorus-I / Gengar or Jellicent. This is facing my 2 pokemon core of Gyarados + a spinner (say Forretress with SR). Thats all "my" core needs to effectively win against Keldeo + Landorus-I, while your core still needs a SRer somewhere (pushing it to 5) otherwise Gyarados can keep switching in. You understand, that's a significant amount of investment your team has just made to block spin, especially when Tar / Keldeo / Landorus-I cores don't have a lot of. ANyway I hate making this point, but in this case its a fair one.
-Secondly those U-Turns are not doing 9-10% to a Rest Talk Gyarados (you forgot Intimidate) so its more of a realistic 5-6% (ie equal to or less than my leftovers regeneration). U-Turn will do more if I move EVs into Special Defence from Defence, but im 2 lazy to make an arbitrary EV spread with a special defence bias. This means I can switch in on Landorus-I more easily, and that you really need Sand on your team, and up, otherwise that Landorus-I is going to find it harder to break me.
-Thirdly, assuming I lack a secondary Landorus-I check, or that I fail to predict those U-Turns, and that I never spin away SR, and that sand is up then yes, Landorus-I wins. In the process, Gyarados has switched in 3 times, and assuming SR is up on your side of the field... then your Landorus-I has lost 67.5% of its health (putting it on 32.5%) but because its used U-Turn to kill Gyarados, then its actually on 20% when it next comes in. You cannot tell me stripping off 80% from Landorus-I is anything less than effective, even assuming extremely favourable conditions from your Point of View, especially considering iv also prevented you from bringing in Keldeo + any other mon my Gyarados can try and get a free Rest on. As well as considering my 2 mon core...
Try HP Ice, Earth Power, Focus Blast and U-Turn (although id agree U-Turn forces a negative matchup for Gyarados, it can still switch in on it). If you use anyone of those other 3 moves and I predict it, then I get a free Rest.
Lastly, I want to make one quick note (since you missed it like twice...) when I said Gyarados countered the core, I was referring to Rest Talk Gyarados as the counter. The pokemon that "checks" the core is Sub DD Gyarados, since, even tho it is a risky switch in on Keldeo and maybe Landorus-I, if it gets in safely, it can push for a DD and sweep. It is the very definition of a CHECK not a counter. Don't bring Specs Keldeo into this since a) its rare in my experience) and b) it skews everything, and yea, if I was running a defensive team, id have another 1-2 Keldeo checks / counters regardless so its pointless bringing that up over and over again. Point being Sub DD Gyarados really shouldn't be switching into Keldeo unless it has a dam good reason like SR isn't up, or its predicting a SS / HP Ice (and that its prolly not Specs which is rare as fuck and you wouldn't be switching into it anyway).
Worth noting that I still think Landorus-I is uber. Sure, Rest Talk Gyarados might counter the core, but its not a great counter, and it still doesn't shift my perception that Landorus-I restricts my teambuilding far too much in order to deal with it. Agreeing with BKC on this one.
I'd just like to throw out there, Sub DD Gyara really isn't even a Scarf Keldeo check unless you run over 200 HP EVs to avoid the Hydro 2HKO after rocks and a Jolly Nature to outrun after two DDs. Switching in after Keldeo kills something and Bouncing is a horrible situation to be in and not even an acceptable plan B vs Keldeo.
I just would like to point out that I never stated that Landorus would be in this core. This is why I didn't want to bring team mates into my discussion, and I only mentioned a spin blocker because you mentioned a rapid spinner to get rid of rocks. While it is worth noting that obviously this core is popular, I said Gyarados would be forced out by the incoming Pokemon (which I don't think you can deny, since it can be forced out of a lot, and when I generally team build I don't think of countering Gyarados as one of my main priorities).
Other than that I agree with the majority of your post
So, I was just wondering...
How will I know when the final decision is actually made on whether or not Landorus is banned? Do I just play OU until it tells me my Landorus is illegal? Or is there some sort of an (obvious) announcement when the final decision is reached?
Sorry if I distracted from the discussion...
How will I know when the final decision is actually made on whether or not Landorus is banned? Do I just play OU until it tells me my Landorus is illegal? Or is there some sort of an (obvious) announcement when the final decision is reached?
Sorry if I distracted from the discussion...
The voting thread will have the official announcement, which in the Policy Review subforum under Blind Voting. It will include voting percentages, how many people voted ban or do not. And showdown will say that Landorus is banned when you try to use it OU
I hope Keldeo's suspect test starts right away. Does anyone have any information about when it will be starting?
on a sidenote, i'm also blacklisting user Aankhein from ever voting again unless someone overrides my decision based on this: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/696959-pokemon-x/66737561
i for one would like to limit the actual literal retards deciding our metagame
i for one would like to limit the actual literal retards deciding our metagame
Why can't we require paragraphs when voting to avoid this? I've been told this was done in the past, let's just go back to that.
This is the shit that I worry about when it comes to voting. The fact that some people would put all their time and effort to get reqs just to ban a Pokemon to spite a Pokemon they dislike, is just plain scary. I like Subject 18's idea with paragraph voting, to avoid this kind of BS.
Looking forward to see how OU would adapt (sun teams, HO weatherless, stall, keledeo themed rain HO or a combinatin thereof). I can't complain about how the result and felt it was appropriate this the decision to ban him came so close to swing either way.
I dunno kd24 how many people entered that vote voting to take down landrous solely because it hurt their playstyle and nothing more? I mean sure his reasoning was pretty off but at the end of the day with a lack of an official OU council guideline on bow to judge a pokemons "uberness" people are gonna make up their own methods of evaluation, including ridiculous ones such "this pokemon sweeps my team and i have no willingness to change or adapt, ban".
Still, poor mamoswine, he had his moment to shine (sash endevaour mamo could have killed the entire core by himself) but no one gave him a chance.
I dunno kd24 how many people entered that vote voting to take down landrous solely because it hurt their playstyle and nothing more? I mean sure his reasoning was pretty off but at the end of the day with a lack of an official OU council guideline on bow to judge a pokemons "uberness" people are gonna make up their own methods of evaluation, including ridiculous ones such "this pokemon sweeps my team and i have no willingness to change or adapt, ban".
Still, poor mamoswine, he had his moment to shine (sash endevaour mamo could have killed the entire core by himself) but no one gave him a chance.
Eh, Kyurm-B isn't to bad for stall IMO. The only way it is actually killing anything with half-decent defense is to use Outrage, and at that point it is easily checked. For some reason no one really uses the good sets that really bother stall, if they did it would be much more troublesome. I would like it gone though, but I have to admit it is manageable.
You guys are forgetting sun teams and thier unusual spike at the near end of the suspect testing in the ou susoect ladder. It's practically the only weather whi has escaped unscathed from any major nerf (even hail had an stab with snow cloak ban) and has all the tools needed to kill stall and outspeed/trap anything else. You can even combine Kyube with sun for max effect. So, all hail of the new core Nine - Kyube - Trios?
Am I the only one who thinks Sun offense teams aren't good at all? I've always viewed them like Baton Pass teams, they're literally at least 5/6 of the same mons every time and incredibly easy to beat if you know they're coming. Sure they beat standard teams sometimes, but most of those are a ScarfTran or a Lati@s / Dragonite from almost winning guaranteed.
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