np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Enter Sandman

[Schpoonman]

Pocket, I think people are trying to make the point that you can do something about paralysis. You can run mono-ground, you can play smart against something you think has Thunder Wave/Stun Spore, you can run a cleric, etc.

There is nothing you can do against Sand Veil but hope that your moves don't miss.

 

[PDC]

pocket please don't start up again, a cactus does not garner any extra care. we're banning sand veil at this point.

EDIT: It's really not about Cacturne anymore lol, but more about what's really broken

 

[Admiral Bobbery]

I know I don't have even close to the necessary rank to vote, but I'm going to speak my mind anyway. It really makes me mad when people say "just change the weather and PokemonX isn't a problem at all!"

When people make arguments like that, it only furthers the belief that using weather is necessary in order to succeed in the current metagame. Is SV Garchomp broken in the sad? Yes! Is it as broken when you are using a rain team? Of course not, but we can't focus only on one style of play. Unfortunately, there is nothing a weatherless team can do against SV Garchomp/Gliscor/Cacturne, hell, I even lost a game because I missed a surf on a freaking DONPHAN and he was able to spin away the hazards that would have won me the game. SAND VEIL IS BROKEN. Passive hax is the worst kind of hax. Sure, it's similar to critical hits or regular misses, but there's one major flaw with that argument. Do we really want to add even more bogus hax to this game then there already is? We already have a ban on evasion moves and items for a reason. In fact, I would argue Double Team is more competitive than SV purely because you have to waste turns and a moveslot to use it! We need to ban SV for the same reason we banned all other evasion boosters, namely, they are uncompetitive.

 

[Taylor]

Taylor, from my experience SV Chomp is a perfectly non-broken mon outside of sand and even in sand it's a manageable threat. A SS + SV ban really makes the most sense, since SV is not inherently broken - it's only "broken" once it's paired with constant sand support.

It's not managable when your 100% accurate moves suddenly become 80% and anything lower is reduced significantly. To add, problems arise if Garchomp is summoned where he is faster than the opponent and consequently sets up Substitute which then gives the user, at most, five turns worth of potentially evading any attack.

Well you can do something about Sand Veil - change the weather. Or ban SS + SV.

You're literally powerless to do anything when running the risk of a Sand Veil miss. You say summon your own weather, but that's a vital element within Standard OU and equally unfair if you've to sacrafice your own weather inducer just to ensure you don't lose to Garchomp in that one instance in a match; let alone later on in the same game.

Banning Sand Veil itself is another option, which remedies mostly every complaint I have experienced and endured so far during this suspect test.

 

[Requiem[9]]

Hide

I also tested a few teams on fire with fire. It's been a few days since I last played, but from my experience over the past week I largely agree with Pocket. Garchomp is not so scary a pokemon that it's difficult to have teams with multiple checks with it, and it's not that hard to play so that missing an attack on Garchomp immediately loses the game. The majority of the relevant offensive threats are naturally faster than Garchomp anyway or else have some form of priority, since 108+ already defines the metagame, and its defensive checks are pokemon you typically want on a slow team anyway. Given that, you can just often look at attacking a Garchomp in sand as a strategic risk, as much as using Stone Edge or Hydro Pump. For reference, this is the team I used for the majority of my time playing on requiem9:

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Matches (Skarmory) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 240 SDef
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird
- Spikes
- Roost
- Whirlwind

Dog Problem (Garchomp) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Stone Edge
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake

Time Bomb (Heatran) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Lava Plume
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Roar

Dead End (Terrakion) @ Choice Band
Trait: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Quick Attack
- X-Scissor

Oceans (Starmie) @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spd
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Thunderbolt
- Rapid Spin
- Recover

Compromise (Celebi) @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 220 SDef / 252 HP / 36 Spd
Gentle Nature
- Giga Drain
- Recover
- Perish Song
- U-turn

This team is obviously fairly bad for several reasons, but I can say this for it: there was maybe one time where I could say a Sand Veil miss definitively lost me a game, and it was a game where I was already fairly behind and was making a risky prediction anyway. (Using Roar with Heatran against a Garchomp that Substituted.) And I missed quite a few moves against Garchomp. The first draft of this team had Politoed (scarf) and Rotom-M over Garchomp and Celebi and when I built it I basically just wanted a reasonable team that I could play some games with to learn the metagame. With absolutely no knowledge of the metagame, just having a team with six reasonable pokemon, I had a team with multiple offensive and defensive checks to Garchomp, and I could have very easily made my team even better against it by putting ice attacks on some other pokemon -- and I certainly wasn't compromising anything. I had reasonable matchups against most teams I came up against. And every time I tried to kill or phaze Garchomp, I didn't have to reach far for a plan in case I missed.

Granted, this is harder with a purely offensive team since you often can't afford to concede momentum and certainly can't afford to let it Substitute. But even with the offensive team I used to actually make requirements, the one I tested on fire with fire, it wasn't that hard to play carefully as to avoid risking a key sweeper against it. Not to mention, you could also just use other weathers.

And there's also the chance that it just does nothing and you're playing against a Garchomp with no ability instead of one with Rough Skin, which is a very good ability with a guaranteed effect.

I don't think Sand Veil is competitive and wouldn't mind it going in principle, but I think it's certainly not "broken". There were a lot of pokemon I played with and against while laddering that were far scarier for multiple reasons. I'll avoid going into too much detail because I don't want my post to be deleted again, but I don't think either Sand Veil or Garchomp is "suspect". If Sand Veil is banned, I think it should be banned in general with Snow Cloak under Evasion Clause, but I don't think it's specifically powerful enough or the pokemon that use it are specifically powerful enough to merit other consideration.

 

[Pocket]

Nice post, Requiem.

I simply don't find the reward:risk for sand veil hax to be sufficiently big to warrant a ban or clausing. It's absurd to target one particular hax when more debilitating ones exist. You do realize that being paralyzed is essentially equivalent to having your accuracy drop by 25% (plus a speed cut)? Paralysis is an underrated strategy that needs to see more use; it can easily swing battles into your favor, and much more consistently than relying on one Pokemon to catch a lucky break in its favorable weather condition.

Garchomp isn't even that impressive anymore as it was in DPP, with the musketeers, Latias / Latios, Scarf Genesect, and Tornadus-T around. Not to mention that sand isn't the default weather anymore.

Just my thoughts from playing a bunch on the suspect ladder

 

[PK Gaming]

Well hang on, there is quite a big difference between Sand veil hax and Thunder Wave paralysis hax. You don't need to "use" Sand Veil. It's "free" ability (under sand anyway), that provides you with a flat 20% evasion bonus. There's absolutely no *risk* to using Sand Veil at all. There's always a risk to using Thunder Wave (since it's a move that takes up your turn, not to mention contingencies like electric immunes switching in or taunt, etc). Sand Veil can activate at any time. For example, a classic Sand Veil case: If you were losing terribly, you'd have a glimmer of hope with Sand Veil, since it's basically a get out of free jail card 20% of the time. Not so much Thunder Wave. (you can argue that it's possible to hax an entire team with Thunder Wave, but this never happens in practice). I'm not talking about Sand Veil ABUSE btw. If a player attempts to abuse Sand Veil, there's a significantly higher chance of the ability activating.

If you're talking about Paralysis hax in general, yes it's powerful but nowhere near as common as Sand Veil. (there's really point in complaining about freeze/para/burn hax/confusion hax, since we can't do anything about it). Anyway, I haven't seen anyone complain about Thunder Wave because its a supplementary move that only sees use on a few Pokemon. You're welcome to test it out and see if it wins you games, but I don't think it'll end up doing you much good.

TL;DRSpamming Thunder Wave does not win you games. Abusing Sand Veil does.

 

[Sewa]

If you're talking about Paralysis hax in general, yes it's powerful but nowhere near as common as Sand Veil. (there's really point in complaining about freeze/para/burn hax/confusion hax, since we can't do anything about it). Anyway, I haven't seen anyone complain about Thunder Wave because its a supplementary move that only sees use on a few Pokemon. You're welcome to test it out and see if it wins you games, but I don't think it'll end up doing you much good.

-Sand veil has 1½ abusers; paralysis is inflicted by Jirachi, Ferrothorn, some Rotom, Blissey/Chansey, Togekiss, Whimsicott, some defensive Latias, Celebi, Dragonite and Thunder spammers.

-You've never played against Jirachi/Machamp core. Also, if Sand Veil helps your Garchomp sweep, can you imagine what a 25% 'miss chance' (which is >20%) and speed reduction can do, when (for example) your modest subChandelure becomes faster than opponent's pokes, or when your IronFist Conkeldurr starts SubPunching helped by paralysis?

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

You won't really run into many teams that attempt to abuse paralysis; This isn't RBY where you can just paralyze shit willy-nilly. Don't forget that there are things like Taunt and Electric immunities, as PK Gaming already mentioned. There's also Natural Cure, Heal Bell, and Magic Bounce.

In general, I just can't see how Sand Veil and paralysis can even be compared. As for Sand Veil, as long as Sand is up you don't have to do anything to gain its benefits. But for Thunder Wave, you have to actively go for Thunder Wave to get the benefits of it. They're completely different.

 

[Warped Worlds]

http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n505/LizardManHuntah/Suspecttestproof_zpsa7cd96f4.png

This was quite a bumpy ride.. I did not have much fun at all, but I finally made it. It all started out a few days ago where I decided to start laddering with BW1 teams and outdated early BW2 teams. I got my ass handed to me. Some games with hax, but mostly to my teams being garbage.

I was getting very salty and angry, so I decided to ask my friend and teammate Dragonuser for some teams because I didn't have much time to build any and I was quite lazy/had a sore throat. So he gave me quite a few, including a sand semi stall which I really liked. I started winning much more, but was only going up around 5 points per game so I was getting very impatient.. so it is finally good to be here! I went 21 - 34 before I asked Dragonuser for help, so props to him for being helpful!

Personally I do not think Garchomp is broken in the current metagame. I originally thought Sand Veil was not broken in BW1, but I feel like it is very detrimental to the current bw2 metagame. I feel like it pushes strong OU pokemon to borderline uber characteristics.

Most teams on the ladder were mainly sand, usually with Genesect, Garchomp, and Rotom-w. Some with Hippowdon, but Tyranitar was more common overall. Breloom usage was also quite high, especially on rain teams. To check pokemon like Ferrothorn and providing a decent water resist, while Politoed can check Breloom's fire weakness.

I might ladder more, or post more thoughts later.

 

[VaporeonIce]

I love paralysis with a passion and think the 25% full paralysis chance should definitely be abused more, but I really can't see it as comparable to Sand Veil. It is remarkably easy to take away a lot of paralysis's power just through smart play, primarily because you can usually see it coming. Have a Poison Heal Gliscor with an activated Toxic Orb? Congratulations, you have a free switch-in to anything that would want to paralyze you, bar an unconventional Jirachi lure set with Ice Punch. Natural Cure isn't uncommon at all, and the defensive Natural Cure users (Blissey/Chansey, Celebi, Shaymin, Roserade) often aren't all that afraid of the Pokemon that's trying to paralyze them. And if the opponent knows you're likely to use a paralysis move, they can usually switch to whatever Pokemon would mind paralysis the least. Even if they don't have a Natural Cure or Heal Bell user, Ferrothorn or Forretress usually aren't going to mind paralysis. Their free turns are definitely valuable for setting up hazards or spinning, but losing a turn to set up one layer of Spikes doesn't mean "instant death" for your team the way giving Garchomp a free turn often does. On top of that, any Pokemon already afflicted with another status can switch in without the risk of paralysis. And, of course, if you're relying on Thunder Wave to paralyze, there are always Ground-types to block the hit.

So while parahax can definitely be annoying, there are so many ways around it and so many effective ways of minimizing its potential damage that no one's ever had a real problem with it. Offensive set-up Pokemon are the best ones at abusing parahax; unfortunately, they don't have the free moveslot (or the free turn) to use the move to paralyze potential counters, and most Pokemon that the opponent would actually allow you to paralyze (generally stuff like Ferrothorn, Forretress, Conkeldurr, Reuniclus) aren't the preferred checks to a set-up sweeper anyway. Terrakion would love a 25% chance of Gliscor being unable to move, but unfortunately for it, Gliscor will pretty much never be paralyzed. The most common parahax loss I'd imagine would be a Scizor failing to Bullet Punch some potential threat, but that can be avoided so easily that it hardly falls into the same realm as Sand Veil, which can't really be avoided in any reasonable way at all.

 

[PK Gaming]

-Sand veil has 1½ abusers; paralysis is inflicted by Jirachi, Ferrothorn, some Rotom, Blissey/Chansey, Togekiss, Whimsicott, some defensive Latias, Celebi, Dragonite and Thunder spammers.

I think you're missing the point. Thunder Wave is a somewhat common move used by all of these Pokemon/Jirachi who can paralyse with Serene Grace. Getting paralyzed by these Pokemon should be expected. Chances are you won't blindly switch in something like Genesect or Terrakion into a Ferrothorn, unless your sure it's not going to T-wave... On the flipside, you can always switch into a Ground-type, a Pokemon with an existing status, or a natural cure user into Thunder Wave, What i'm trying to say is, you can play around Thunder Wave / Paralysis. It's totally different from Sand Veil, where even smart play won't cut it. We can't manipulate luck, so there's no planning around it. You either hit them... or you don't.

You should know that pointing the amount of T-wave spammers in comparison to Sand Veil won't get you anywhere. It doesn't strengthen your argument (especially when you mention Whimsicott or Togekiss, neither which are seen in OU) and it doesn't invalidate Sand Veil's overpowered-ness if it has a few abusers. (It has 2.5 btw, not 1.5)

-You've never played against Jirachi/Machamp core. Also, if Sand Veil helps your Garchomp sweep, can you imagine what a 25% 'miss chance' (which is >20%) and speed reduction can do, when (for example) your modest subChandelure becomes faster than opponent's pokes, or when your IronFist Conkeldurr starts SubPunching helped by paralysis?

Can't say I have, sorry. Though I do think you're heavily overestimating paralysis... I can say without a doubt that paralysis spamming isn't remotely close to being as good as Sand Veil, and judging from the posts in this thread, I don't think others feel that way either. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at either. Are trying to say that Sand Veil is not that big of a deal, because Paralysis spamming is more powerful? Or are you trying to say that Paralysis is even more broken than Sand Veil. I can tell you right now, you're not going to get away with the latter. Thunder Wave spamming is not a problem, period.

TL;DR 2: You can play around T-wave spamming, you can't really play around Sand Veil if the sand is up.

 

[MJB]

I just want to chime in here and say that In my opinion sand veil Should be banned for one simple reason.

It's un-competitive.

Now this has been said a lot already but I think the key thing that people have left out is the fact that sand veil cause the OTHER player to have a disadvantage, as opposed to something like say, using stone edge, which gives yourself a disadvantage.

Using moves with low accuracy brings "hax" onto yourself, using SV brings hax onto the opponent.

This argument is the same for snow cloak, but that's not being discussed at the moment

 

[Kidogo]

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While I do agree with most of the stuff said above, I am in favor of a complete garchomp allowance, including SS + SV, for a couple of reasons. The most prominent is that SV is a crucial, broken (in my and most people's opinions it seems) ability only when talking about offensive checks to garchomp. However, sand veil is a largely irrelevant factor when countering garchomp with something like skarmory. Since the set in question is the subSD set, which typically has dragon claw and no boosting item, garchomp does not even 2HKO on average with a +6 dragon claw, and has no chance to do so if the skarmory holds leftovers. This means that in order for a skarmory to fail to check a subSD garchomp, sand veil must activate 3 times while the garchomp SDs, and then 3 times for it to kill the skarmory. The chance of this happening is (1/5)^6 = 0.0064% probability. This means that despite the hax-based element of sand veil, skarmory for example remains an incredibly sure-fire counter.

I also think that, although pocket's example of twave does not quite equal that of sand veil, a more or less comparable one is super luck. Crits are a part of the game, but that does not mean they can always be prepared for. Stall would be a non-existent entity if every set-up sweeper was guaranteed to get critical hits every time they attacked. And yet, we do not regard an ability such as super luck, which raises the probability of this "game-breaking" occurrence, broken. And while it is true that sand veil is a more exploitable ability, due to the possibility of "fishing for misses," super luck introduces the same element of battle that is simply impossible to prepare for. How many games have been changed because a terrakion stone edge critted on your gliscor? And yet moves like stone edge do not really warrant banning (and not just because of the accuracy).

tl;dr
While SV does limit the absolute reliability of garchomp's offensive checks, it does little to change the defensive ones. Furthermore, the game already has elements of hax that are impossible to prepare for, such as crits, full paralysis, and "contact status abilities", another somewhat complete parallel I see. So IMO all forms of garchomp should return to OU, even if it necessitates more defensive checks to him.

EDIT: also just wanted to say that, stepping away from theorymon, garchomp was incredibly underwhelming on the suspect ladder. Even when it dodged death, it's outsped by a ton of stuff and isn't that hard to revenge. True, it's very nerve-wracking when you just *have* to hit it in order to win, but I see that as very much akin to praying that you get a decent damage roll, or that the opponent doesn't crit.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I was getting very salty and angry, so I decided to ask my friend and teammate Dragonuser for some teams because I didn't have much time to build any and I was quite lazy/had a sore throat. So he gave me quite a few, including a sand semi stall which I really liked. I started winning much more, but was only going up around 5 points per game so I was getting very impatient.. so it is finally good to be here! I went 21 - 34 before I asked Dragonuser for help, so props to him for being helpful!

Would you mind sharing your team? I am having a hard time building a good defensive team in this meta, let alone a sand stall team. I am no the coping kinda person but maybe it will give me some ideas.

 

[Warped Worlds]

Would you mind sharing your team? I am having a hard time building a good defensive team in this meta, let alone a sand stall team. I am no the coping kinda person but maybe it will give me some ideas.

It actually wasn't my team. It was actually Yee's I think. The 6 pokemon were Sash Terrakion | Scarf Heatran | Jellicent | CB Tyranitar | Skarmory | Latias.

It was a very nice team. I like how it had a lot of power and covered most threats well. Hazards wear down Gensect, and spinners like Tentacruel were less common.

No shame in copying though. Many good players do it.

@ the person who tried to compare Thunder Wave to Sand Veil: Adding to what PKGaming said, Sand Veil is inherent. Thunder Wave wastes a turn. Sand Veil has the potential to run through your counters and checks with Garchomp.

 

[PDC]

Well since everybody else is doing it, I figure I would make a "I Made Reqs now Time to Say what happened while I got there" post.

The metagame to be honest was pretty much what I expected it to be. It was centralized around Garchomp ( Like Any Suspect Ladder ) and featured the same typical trends that would see on a ladder like this. For the most part, I didn't actually dislike the metagame itself, but the Sand Veil hax was what made me hate it. I remember when the thought of Garchomp being un-banned was first proposed, I was actually very Adamant and upset about bring Garchomp back, even with Rough Skin I figured it would still be broke. However, this is clearly not the case, making Sand Veil the true culprit in Garchomp's hatred. However to my surprise the typical Garchomp was not actually the Standard SubSD set that once ruled in it's own time period. I actually saw more Yache Berry and Choiced Varients, and even SubSalac, than the regular "Hax Based" set, which for me was surprising.

About the metagame itself, I thought it was actually a pretty fun one to play. Although I didn't like the consistent Sand Veil hax, when the misses would not happen I enjoyed it, and liked it much much more than our current Standard BW2 OU metagame without Garchomp. The typical team I used was Taylor's offensive team, which was simply amazing on the ladder. I think I have in total seen more HO teams on the ladder than anything else, with Sand bulky offense and stall coming in close second and third. For the short time I did ladder, I realized that not one style was always dominant, and for the most part I really enjoyed how much equality there was in the metagame. There is not much else to really say on "ladder & metagame analysis" as for the most part this metagame with Sand Veil Garchomp will cease to exist in a mere 5 more days. However Breloom seems to have become very popular, and for a good reason. Breloom if played correctly destroys stall and makes great use of it's chance to cripple one of it's counters if given the chance. After a Swords Dance Bullet Seed can break through practically anything if it gets the right amount of hits. Mach Punch gives a pretty decently strong priority STAB which can pick off even the likes of Scarf Genesect and Keldeo that try to revenge me. While also dealing a nice 80-90% on Garchomp. Keldeo also is doing great as a Choice Scarfer, as expected. Being able to check Genesect and revenge practically every set up threat in the metagame is impressive, and considering Keldeo has decent bulk as well it can take priority and stray Earthquakes and even Outrages from Garchomps, and in return KO with HP Ice.

The other team I used for a little while was a Garchomp + Genesect + Gothitelle tag team which worked around getting rid of each others counters to pull of a successful Garchomp sweep. Gothitelle could dispose of Skarmory, the most common counter to Garchomp with a simple double switch, while stuff like Scizor and Genesect can get caught by an HP Fire. If Genesect is lured into an Ice Beam, it can easily be disposed of. Genesect plays the roll as a great offensive scout, providing momentum and offensive and defensive synergy with both of them. Garchomp and Genesect work great together, and even better Garchomp can easily scare off Heatran's that can destroy Genesect with ease. I advise you guys to test this nice core out, as I thought it worked really well in practice!

Pretty much at this point there is nothing else to say but I believe we should just get rid of Sand Veil as a whole and give Garchomp a seat back into OU. I have lost many games due to the sheer luck factor of missing a crucial move on Garchomp. I have even missed moves twice in a row due to this, and thus losing 2 or more Pokemon just trying to get a revenge kill on it. I think we already discussed this, but I don't think a complex ban is going to play a roll here, as we really just need to eliminate this hax factor of the game. When the voting comes around I'll make sure to ban Sand Veil and make sure it leaves us for good. Bringing back Garchomp will be a great thing, but we just need to get rid of Sand Veil first for it to actually work out well.

 

[AfroThunderRule]

Just starting playing the BW2 metagame for the first time.

What's the deal with lead SR Focus Sash Terrakion? See that shit everywhere, seems like the new Aero. >_>

 

[Stone RG]

Hide

Thanks to GatodelFuego for that message, i wouldn't be able to vote if not for that :]

Im probably not gonna enter Showdown again for a while since i already saw too much of Garchomp's destruction abilities (just to make my point, the last guy i battled bfore i got the deviation under 50, missed 4 consecutive CC with his terrakion whilei set up to the +6 for no reason). I got, like probably almost everybody, to the 1900 using the most dangerous offensive core in the Suspect meta: Genesect and Garchomp, i personally used an E-Belt since it helps luring in Skarm to take the U-turn, as well as helping in the weather war (my scarer was Terrakion).

I think i have already made my point (as well as PK and BKC) quite a few times, but im gonna say it anyways: Sand Veil is the broken aspect.

1. for those of you that say that there are other abilities that also roll on hax, well the only one that can give you a free turn just as SV and be used competitively is Snow Cloak, that, as we know, is not the matter of discussion.

2. Don't say ''chomp is the broken aspect, not SV'', well let me tell you that there is a reason we are doing the Suspect Test, and that is that it was confirmed that Garchomp is not broken by the past Suspect. Plus, any ability that can give you a free turn without any cost but having Sand up (which isnt that hard) is broken, i dont care if it is Gliscor or Cacturne the ones that get the free turn, they still get it and it is invaluable because you may be losing one pokemon because of it.

So thats what i wanted to say, hope this doesnt get deleted like all the others lol.
For those of you that want to take the team (i dont care, im not using this team again, there is no way SV is getting away of the vote without a ban)

Hide

Gaara (Tyranitar) @ Chople Berry
Trait: Sand Stream
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 84 Atk / 252 HP / 8 SAtk / 164 SDef
Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Pursuit
- Crunch
- Ice Beam

Tobi (Genesect) @ Expert Belt
Trait: Download
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Naive Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
- U-turn
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower

Suigetsu (Rotom-Wash) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Calm Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Pain Split

Sakura (Amoonguss) (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 28 SAtk / 252 HP / 212 Def
Calm Nature
- Giga Drain
- Spore
- Stun Spore
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Naruto (Terrakion) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor
- Rock Slide

Sasuke. (Garchomp) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sand Veil
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Substitute
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw

 

[melvni]

Just stopping by to point out that, while I acknowledge that a lot of them might not be especially viable, there are ways to counteract Sand Veil and, though I acknowledge that Sand Veil will usually be in force under Sand, saying otherwise is simply not true. For instance, Mold Breaker and No Guard block it, while Compoundeyes cancels it out. Now I acknowledge that the only viable mon with any of those abilities is Haxorus, who can only outspeed with Choice Scarf (and only non-scarf Garchomp at that), and, of the rest, only Golurk, Machamp, and Galvantula are anywher near usable, but the fact remains that there are passive ways to remove Garchomp's passive hax without changing the weather.

Outside of abilities like these (to which Mummy could also be possibly added in as a temporary, only sometimes helpful measure), there are also several moves that avoid or neutralize Garchomp's hax outside of the already much maligned infinite accuracy attacks. Namely:

Ghost-type Curse
Destiny Bond
Defog (though blocked by sub and generally counterproductive)
Coil
Gravity
Hone Claws
Lock-on (though blocked by sub)
Mind Reader (though blocked by sub)
Perish Song
Skill Swap
Sweet Scent (though blocked by sub)
Telekinesis (though blocked by sub)
Yawn (though blocked by sub)

As for items, there's really only Zoom Lens on slower things, but it is an option and would mean you'd never have to worry about shit like Skarmory Whirlwinds missing (and hey I've seen people run things like Rocky Helmet on Amoonguss in NU to beat Cinccino, so running an item over Leftovers to beat a specific Pokemon isn't entirely unheard of).

Now, let me be perfectly clear: I am not, not, not, not, not saying that any individual one of these moves, abilities, or items (really item) are viable options. I'm not even saying that any of them are. However, the fact is that there are ways to get around Sand Veil hax outside of running incredibly low power or poorly distributed moves. Are they usable ways? As I said earlier, I'm not sure (and some, like Sweet Scent and Defog, I'm near positive aren't). But the fact remains they're out there, and some of them might be worthy of consideration.

Edit: This is also not an argument either way vis a vis Banning Garchomp, Banning Sand Veil, or Banning anything else. It's just something I wanted to bring up.

 

[Sewa]

Can't say I have, sorry. Though I do think you're heavily overestimating paralysis... I can say without a doubt that paralysis spamming isn't remotely close to being as good as Sand Veil, and judging from the posts in this thread, I don't think others feel that way either. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at either. Are trying to say that Sand Veil is not that big of a deal, because Paralysis spamming is more powerful? Or are you trying to say that Paralysis is even more broken than Sand Veil. I can tell you right now, you're not going to get away with the latter. Thunder Wave spamming is not a problem, period.

TL;DR 2: You can play around T-wave spamming, you can't really play around Sand Veil if the sand is up.

I'm just trying to say that a 20% chance to miss is not that gamebreaking, not even uncompetitive. It is something you have to prepare for when you build a team, like you prepare for Paralysis with Natural Cure/cleric pokemon. You prepare for rain and its Thunder/Hurricane spam, you prepare for Sun and its speedy abusers, why can't you just simply prepare for a 20% chance to miss?
We're blaming about Sand Veil brokeness but face this: if it's so broken, why many pokes that have the ability just don't use it? Because there are far better abilities that are certain to work.
Sand Veil is not broken and we stated with OU Suspect that Garchomp alone is not broken. It is the combination of Pseudo-legendary stats and Sand Veil that make Garchomp broken, like it's the combination of Speed Boost and Blaziken (or Sand Rush+Excadrill) to make it uber.
IF we have to ban something, we should let Garchomp stay uber, like we banned Blaziken and Excadrill, and not Speed Boost or Sand Rush.

The only reason I see to ban Sand Veil is because it breaks the evasion clause, not because of its brokeness.

 

[TGMD]

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After reaching the required points & deviation for voting rights I've decided to share my thoughts on Sand Veil.

Like many players, during a battle I'm constantly analyzing my current situation and attempting to look for win paths, when doing so I look for the one that will give me the highest chance of a win and preferably one that will lead me to a 100% win chance (no matter how much hax the opponent gets I'll still be guarenteed a win) if I play correctly. This is impossible when battling against a Garchomp or any other Sand Veil abuser once your sand goes up. This means that sand has a lower chance of winning than any other weather when up against a Sand Veil abuser. A complex ban of SV + Sand on the same team punishes anyone running sand in the most anti-competitive way possible.

I'm definetly in favour of a full Sand Veil ban because if a Sand Veil abuser is on the opponents team and you like using sand then evem if you're 6-1 and all your pokemon are; healthy, faster than the Sand Veil Abuser on the opponents team and have the ability to OHKO the Sand Veil Abuser, the final score could still end up being 0-1 even if you play perfectly. The thing that sets Sand Veil hax apart from other hax is that there's no definitive way of countering a pokemon with Substitute and Sand Veil other than moves that never miss - none of which are seen commonly in competitive battling - or never using sand again.

 

[Mazinger]

since everyone else is doing this

I'm going to agree with what seems to be the general consenus, namely that garchomp without sand veil is managable while sand veil itself is a ridiculously good ability, being able to essentially give its user a 20% chance (or more) to win a game in a lot of cases (I've chomped a lot of people and been chomped just as much throughout this testion period) with nothing the opponent can realistically do about it as long as sand is up. It's not the most reliable strategy, but it's still incredibly good and incredibly hard to play against, simply because there is no reliable way to beat it. I could go into detail but I think everything has already been said so it's pretty pointless.

Garchomp itself, without sand veil, is still one of the best pokemon in the meta, but not to the extent where it absolutely dominates like it does right now. It will still sweep teams, but there will at least be reliable ways to prevent this, be it skarmory or something faster that can OHKO it, not to mention that it's not as easy to set up when you can't fish for misses with substitute.

I can see why one would want to ban garchomp as a whole instead of sand veil since it's the combination of everything garchomp has to offer that breaks it, which is true to an extent, but I also think we're better off banning sand veil regardless, since the evasion it provides can still easily turn games around on gliscor or, in extreme cases, everything else that gets it. It's just not worth keeping around in my opinion, especially not when we can unban a pokemon by getting rid of it.

 

[bro fist]

hey look everybody's doin it

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i think i've made it clear enough with a previous post in this thread that i believe that sand veil (and to a lesser extent snow cloak) has no place in competitive pokemon. When you essentially have a 20% chance to completely bullshit someone and turn the game in your favor coupled with an already fantastic pokemon in garchomp it is kind of overwhelming. I can see why some people would want garchomp to be banned period, it's still as potent as it ever was and definitely a top tier mon. However, i'll go ahead and agree with the general consensus here and say that the ability is definitely the culprit in this case(i'm sure we've all seen our fair share of people getting bullshitted by sv gliscor and cacturne courtesy of eo).
Sand veil is a cancer on competitive pokemon and needs to go.

 

[Stone RG]

I'm just trying to say that a 20% chance to miss is not that gamebreaking, not even uncompetitive. It is something you have to prepare for when you build a team, like you prepare for Paralysis with Natural Cure/cleric pokemon. You prepare for rain and its Thunder/Hurricane spam, you prepare for Sun and its speedy abusers, why can't you just simply prepare for a 20% chance to miss?
We're blaming about Sand Veil brokeness but face this: if it's so broken, why many pokes that have the ability just don't use it? Because there are far better abilities that are certain to work.
Sand Veil is not broken and we stated with OU Suspect that Garchomp alone is not broken. It is the combination of Pseudo-legendary stats and Sand Veil that make Garchomp broken, like it's the combination of Speed Boost and Blaziken (or Sand Rush+Excadrill) to make it uber.
IF we have to ban something, we should let Garchomp stay uber, like we banned Blaziken and Excadrill, and not Speed Boost or Sand Rush.

The only reason I see to ban Sand Veil is because it breaks the evasion clause, not because of its brokeness.

Ok i cannot stay away of this when you say this kind of stuff.

Are you seriously saying you can prepare for Sand Veil? Haven't we made it clear that Sand Veil may activate at ANY given moment as long as there is sand up, that isnt hard at all in practice, you just have to come in with your GLiscor/Garchomp safely and abuse SV, it activates, there you have it, you got a free turn.

What im trying to say is that you cannot prepare for Sand Veil, first of all because its something that acts to hax, and then, if you want to compare it with paralysis, well the last time i checked you have to waste your turn using the T-wave for it to have even the probability of activating, while Sand Veil is passive and you have no guaranteed use of your turn while your opponent does.