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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Enter Sandman

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Iconic, Sep 12, 2012.

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  1. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    I hate to jump down your throat Kidogo, but that's faulty reasoning.
    Garchomp's defensive checks outside of Skarmory suffer heavily from Sand Veil hax. For instance, Slowbro straight up loses if it misses Ice Beam.

    You can see this happen in this log: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4395696&postcount=67

    And it's not just Slowbro, other defensive Garchomp checks like Hippowdown, Tangrowth, Forretress & Bronzong absolutely, none of which can miss their Ice Fang / HP Ice. The reason being they're capable of beating / bringing Garchomp to extremely low HP (so that it can be picked off by priority of scarf users, etc.) The point is, Sand Veil affects ALL Garchomp checks barring Skarmory, and I don't think it's fair to have Skarmory represent ALL defensive checks, when there are decent amount of others that exist.
  2. melvni

    melvni
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    Alternatively...

    So to argue that there is no way to stop Garchomp from haxing past its defensive checks is simply not true. Now, could it be argued that Zoom Lens is a waste of an item slot in every other situation? Yes, but that hasn't stopped people in the past from running certain items on certain Pokemon. Before the release of Gothitelle, there was no reason other than Magnezone to run Shed Shell on Skarmory, but some people did it anyway because they couldn't afford their Skarmory getting picked off if Magnezone was on the opponent's team. Similarly, back when DW was an active tier, plenty of walls with no way to beat Chandelure ran Shed Shell, because they couldn't afford to give it setup opportunities. So, by the same token, if you really need your Slowbro to hit Garchomp, you can run Zoom Lens, which, while admittedly slightly decreasing Slowbro's ability to wall, shouldn't do so by that much in my mind since it already has tons of recovery in Regenerator and Slack Off (I would think similarly to how Amoonguss can get away with running Rocky Helmet for Cinccino in NU since it has Regenerator and Synthesis).

    There are ways to play around Garchomp hax even if you don't use them because you'd prefer a more generally useful item, just as you can prepare for contact status abilities by running Lum Berry, but may choose not to because it would mean giving up Life Orb, Expert Belt, or Choice Something on your sweeper.

    Edit @Below: Damn, well that's an error in the on site description for Gen V. And, checking other sites and the DP entry, you're almost certainly right. Still though, .8*1.2=.96, meaning the chance of you hitting with Zoom Lens is greater than the chance (95%) of not getting critted, something that is completely impossible to stop bar Shell/Battle Armor and something that equally screws over Slowbro.
  3. mien

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    Not taking sides but Zoom lens accuracy boost is not 30% but 20%(4915/4096) which means it does not guarantee a hit against a Sand Veil user
  4. PK Gaming

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    Yeah, we get it, there are strategies to counterthat exist and you should use them if you want to win blah blah fucking blah. The fact of the matter is, if there's a strategy that exists that requires you to run zoom lens on ALL of your defensive Pokemon, it's poor team optimization. Period. I will not have you sit here and tell me that Sand Veil is made manageable by running Zoom lens on all of my defensive Pokemon. That's bullshit. There are practical considerations here. IE Zoom lens being completely and utterly useless against non-Sand Veil teams.

    Seriously dude, write words about your pet theories after you actually beat someone of note with them. Consistently. If you're going to claim that Zoom lens is a viable strategy against Sand Veil, prove it. Logs, screenshots, whatever.

    Such as... such as? You're being intentionally vague here because outside of running zoom lens (which doesn't even work) there's no way of editing your Pokemon to deal with Sand Veil users in the sand outside of changing weather. You're presenting zoom lens like it's some brilliant item that players are too stubborn to use, but it's not, it's total garbage on defensive Pokemon. FYI, Shed shell on defensive Pokemon; you use it to prevent trappers from systematically destroying your team by removing key Pokemon (like Genesun vs Heatran or Dragmag vs Skarmory). It's suboptimal, but if the alternative is instantly losing to these team styles, then it's totally worth it. If you have to resort to running Zoom lens, an item that doesn't even guarantee that you hit Sand Veil users, then you've already lost before the matches has even started.

    In any case, if people keep using the same pointless arguments in this thread instead of actually listening to what we have to say and trying to counter that, i'm going to lose my shit. All of it.
  5. Lavos Spawn

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    I have to agree with PK Gaming about the whole concept of having to run Zoom Lens to even hope to hit a Sand Veil abuser. If you have to resort to using an item that is never ever seen outside of a 12-year-old's Battle Tower team, you've already lost the battle. Besides, what if the opponent doesn't bring a Sand Veil abuser? Then you've just wasted an item slot. You can make this argument for Shed Shell, too, but I'd say escaping trappers that could open your team up for an easy sweep is much more important than boosting your accuracy to hit a Sand Veil abuser.

    Furthermore, can we PLEASE stop with the "lol there are ways to counter Sand Veil" line of argumentation? It's not getting this discussion anywhere. We know stuff out there beat SubSD Garchomp. We realize that Skarmory and Bronzong are both perfectly viable OU Pokemon. However, it is the sheer uncompetitiveness of Sand Veil which causes our complaints, not the lack of being able to counter the Pokemon behind the Sand Veil. I can recall at least three situations where it was my last Pokemon vs. my opponent's last Sand Veil Pokemon, I went for the killing blow and missed due to Sand Veil, and my opponent finished me off. How can you justify having that kind of completely skill-less, entirely luck-reliant "strategy" in OU? It undeniably detracts from the competitive and skill-oriented nature of online Pokemon.

    Ban Sand Veil.
  6. BKC

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    [​IMG]

    I've posted numerous times in this thread with my thoughts on Sand Veil but now that I have reqs I'll do it again. SV does nothing positive at all, and has the potential to rob the more deserving player of a win. If you merely have sand up, you have a great shot for numerous free turns to do whatever the hell you want. SV is a cancer to the metagame and it's broken on more than just Garchomp [Gliscor comes to mind]. The "use Zoom Lens on your Garchomp counter so it can't miss" argument is a bad joke. I believe Rough Skin Garchomp should stay in the metagame, as it is not even close to being broken without the free turns it gets from Sand Veil, and SV as an ability absolutely needs to go.

    BAN SAND VEIL
  7. peng

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    what an excellent rating system :D
    only 80-odd battles to go 9.9

    Also seems pretty weird that ShakeItUp can have reqs with a negative w:l record but idk what you can really do about that.

    Okay so although I've only played 5 games on this alt but I have a couple of other alts so I guess I'm qualified to say something about chomp. I, like everyone else, has had problems with Sand Veil. I personally don't feel that Sand Veil Garchomp is as broken as it was in early BW1, but it should still definitely be on the next boat to ubers in my eyes. Sand is nowhere near the dominant force it used to be because of the presence of a ton of new Rain abusers etc, but a well constructed sand team can still easily sand veil hax the shit out of everything else in spite of the opposing team having a Politoed. The few people who are against banning sand veil altogether really exaggerate how easy it actually is to change the weather, especially since neither Politoed or Ninetales can switch-in on Garchomp safely to begin with.

    I'm sure loads of other people have used this example, but Sand Veil turns every Surf into a Hydro Pump. When I'm specifically using Surf over Hydro Pump on something like Starmie then I'm doing it for the 100% accuracy, and its ridiculous that I can be punished for a miss that was completely out of my hands. For every Hydro Pump I miss I will accept that I am partially at fault. I can accept no responsibility for losing a Surf vs Sand Veil Garchomp; in many situations, there was no way I could have played the game better but I would lose due to a luck-based element of the game that was out of my hands.

    Ban Sand Veil imo. It adds next to nothing to the game, and even this complex ban people are suggesting (sand stream + veil) does not solve the problem; all it does is punishes somebody for using Sand and gives rain and sun offense even more tools to get by sand in bw2.
  8. melvni

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    OK, this is a perfectly valid point, and something I hadn't fully considered when I compared Zoom Lens Slowbro to Shed Shell Skarmory, even if both were actually for one Pokemon and were completely useless if the opponent didn't run it, there's a difference between blocking one Pokemon and blocking a play style which I hadn't taken account for. I can't prove anything with Screenshots, because a screenshot of me hitting something could have happened with or without the item. I'm sorry if I made you angry by suggesting that it might be a good idea (and I wasn't suggesting running it on all your defensive Pokemon, I was suggesting maybe running it on your Garchomp check if it was absolutely essential not to miss, because hitting 24/25 times means that crucial miss is going to be a lot rarer than the 1/5 it is normally, even if it would be that much more infuriating); I was mainly just remembering back when Skill Link Cinccino was released in NU, and people started using Rocky Helmet to beat it when nothing had run it previously, but I suppose that's a pretty different scenario now that I think about it since it actually does something besides beat one Pokemon.
  9. -Tsunami-

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    idk how that's possible, but apparently it is. Anyway, at this point, Chomp is pretty underwhelming...until Sand Veil owns you. Rough Skin Chomp should definitely be let back into OU, so imo, just ban Sand Veil + Sandstorm or ban Sand Veil entirely. Chomp can literally own almost all of its counters if they miss, as PKGaming proved earlier. It makes Chomp that much more threatening, and it pushes it over the edge. You can't prepare for it, and it is just too broken on Garchomp.
  10. Melee Mewtwo

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    For those of you who like theorymoning I thought I drop these calcs for all of you.

    Show Hide
    +2 Dragon Claw vs Defensive Gliscor: 169-201 (47.74 - 56.77%) -- 1.17% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed 2HKO with LO)

    +2 EQ vs Physical Wall Hippowdon: 211-249 (50.23 - 59.28%) -- 78.52% chance to 2HKO

    +2 EQ vs Mixed Wall Hippowdon: 258-304 (61.42 - 72.38%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +2 EQ vs Physical Wall Slowbro: 220-261 (55.83 - 66.24%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +2 Dragon Claw vs Physical Wall Tangrowth: 160-190 (39.6 - 47.02%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    +2 EQ vs Physically Defensive Forretress: 220-261 (55.83 - 66.24%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +2 EQ vs Specially Defensive Forretress: 244-288 (68.92 - 81.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +2 Outrage vs Defensive Gliscor: 255-300 (72.03 - 84.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (guaranteed OHKO with LO and Stealth Rock)

    +2 Outrage vs Physical Wall Hippowdon: 253-298 (60.23 - 70.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +2 Outrage vs Mixed Wall Hippowdon: 309-364 (73.57 - 86.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (guaranteed OHKO with LO and Stealth Rock)

    +2 Outrage vs Physical Wall Slowbro: 264-312 (67 - 79.18%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (93.75% chance to OHKO with LO and Stealth Rock)

    +2 Outrage vs Physical Wall Tangrowth: 241-285 (59.65 - 70.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Neutral Fire Blast vs Physical Wall Tangrowth: 248-292 (61.38 - 72.27%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (43.75% chance to OHKO with LO and Stealth Rock)

    Neutral Fire Blast vs Physically Defensive Forretress: 384-456 (108.47 - 128.81%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Neutral Fire Blast vs Specially Defensive Forretress: 284-336 (80.22 - 94.91%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (guaranteed OHKO with LO)

    Neutral Fire Blast vs Physical Wall Skarmory: 192-228 (57.48 - 68.26%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)

    +2 Fire Fang vs Specially Defensive Skarmory: 214-252 (64.07 - 75.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (68.75% chance to OHKO with LO and Stealth Rock)

    +2 Fire Fang vs OU Tank Bronzong: 234-276 (69.23 - 81.65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (75% chance to OHKO with LO and Stealth Rock)



    Defensive Gliscor's Ice Fang: 188-224 (52.66 - 62.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Yache: 94-112 (26.33 - 31.37%))

    Hippowdon's Ice Fang: 216-256 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Yache: 108-128 (30.25 - 35.85%))

    Defensive Slowbro's Ice Beam: 316-372 (88.51 - 104.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO (Yache: 158-186 (44.25 - 52.1%))

    Defensive Tangrowth's Hidden Power Ice: 252-300 (70.58 - 84.03%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Yache: 126-150 (35.29 - 42.01%))

    Forretress's Hidden Power Ice (neutral nature, no investment): 156-184 (43.69 - 51.54%) -- 5.08% chance to 2HKO (Yache: 126-150 (35.29 - 42.01%))

    OU Tank Bronzong's Hidden Power Ice: 192-228 (53.78 - 63.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Yache: 96-114 (26.89 - 31.93%))

    Offensive TR Bronzong's Gyro Ball: 217-256 (60.78 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    I personally find it disturbing that something that hits so hard is also so bulky. (Lol, Rough Skin lets you get a clean 2HKO on a Physical Wall Hippowdon)

    Please, let me know if there are any other calcs you think I should include.

    (Btw, shouldn't it be included in the OP that Hax items like Bright Powder can be used in Suspect Testing, too?)
  11. Bl1tzkri3g

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    So I was feeling adventurous and decided to do some sand veil math, which means I calculated the probabilties of misses happening with different sets on chomp. The scenario I used was: Chomp comes in, forces a switch and subs up. A check comes in, one that can take one boosted attack but not two and will ko(ehem, slowbro). The math is just the chance that a miss won't happen to the power which garchomp subs, subtracted from 100.
    If chomp gets 5 subs, with leftovers, the odds of a miss occurring Is about 68% (.8 to the fifth). If it gets four, that number falls to 60%. If it gets 4 with bright powder, then the number is 74% (.72 to the fourth, as iirc bright power and sand veil aren't cumulative), but it's worth noteing that chomp only gets four subs if rocks aren't on the field. Three brightpowder subs and you have a 63% chance of getting a miss. You can take these how you want, but I think it's pretty scary that the odds are in chomp's favor of getting to +2 with an intact sub vs. one of the game's most bulky Pokemon carrying a strong super-effective move.
  12. Princess Bubblegum

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    I agree that sand veil should be banned if we must allow Garchomp in, but in practice one should only ever be able to get 4 subs up, as pretty much ANY hit before hand even hazards makes it so that makes the odds really down to 41% (with out bright powder), which is still terrible to lose 41% of the time with a counter.

    Edit:
    .8^4 = .4096 = 41%
  13. Bl1tzkri3g

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    No, you lose 59% of the time with a counter, you forgot to subtract the odds of a miss not happening (41%) from 100%. And I don't think 59% stops can be called counters, do you?

    Edit: .8^4 is the chance of sand veil hax not happening. To find the odds of it actually happening, to need to subtract .4096 from 1.0, to get .5904, or around 59%.
  14. FrostFire

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    I really like what Garchomp's added to the meta at the moment, but Sand Veil is a bit eh. Personally, I've been running a lot of rain teams, so I have yet to lose a match specifically to SV hax, but I can defo see how it would be annoying.

    That said, I also just wanted to mention that while some players have lost matches to SV hax, it should be said that if you're in that critical last pokemon scenario, where it's just (your poke) V. Garchomp, then I don't see losing to SV hax in this scenario as being that bad. That is, if you're opponent has managed to kill five of your team, and your entire victory is dependent on one attack - well, then the battle was pretty damn close anyway.

    No, my main gripe about SV is that it's just uncompetitive. Like, you can send your SD Garchomp out into battle, and by a mere roll of the dice, you can potentially get an auto-win. I don't think it's actually a broken ability per se; it's just that the entire purpose of the ability is to put matches up to chance.

    That said, I think I would still prefer a Garchomp + SV ban, as opposed to a wider ban. This is mainly because a) it (I believe) affects Cacturne's movepool options in the lower tiers, and b) nothing else is really that good with it anyway, so we might as well not mess with it. Honestly, I don't think I've ever lost to SV Gliscor because of a miss anyway.
  15. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    Here, let me help you:

    - Bullet Seed
    - Encore

    Yep, that's seriously all he's losing. Replace them with Seed Bomb and Sub after the ban and you have the same Cacturne. It doesn't affect his ability to Spike or attack at all.

    The OU council mentioned some pages ago that Cacturne losing two moves wasn't a priority on their list of things to consider with this suspect test. We are not going to restrict uncompetitive nonsense to Sand teams vs Garchomp just to let an irrelevant Pokemon keep two moves in an irrelevant tier. Both Garchomp and Tyranitar will maintain high usage. As long as those two factors are in play, we are dealing with the same issues. A complex ban does not work in this scenario.
  16. AJC

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    this is so head in the sand i can't leave it at this.

    while i give you bullet seed the move encore is pretty much the only thing he has to set himself apart from other mons in NU especially since encore makes it's the only spike user in NU that has encore to allow for giving actual chances at setting up spikes which sets it apart from other NU spikes users removing that removes the the main thing that makes it stand out as a spikes user in NU.

    the era of just willy nilly allowing bans to effect lower tiers without considering their impacts on lower tiers has to be addressed without this careless dismissal i'm seeing from these pushers especially when the thing in question isn't even applicable in the lower tiers due to another ban already in effect without relying on a questionable move taking up a moveslot and questionable item taking up the item slot.
  17. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    Can we please stop bringing up the "Cacturne is going to be nerfed" argument? Yes, Cacturne will be nerfed, but not substantially; it is still going to be viable, just played differently. (and guess what: in the beginning of NU, Bullet Seed and Encore Cacturne didn't even see use and was still plenty viable) The active NU playerbase (read: the people who have been playing NU often for the past few months) have agreed that the OU council should not bend backwards to accommodate NU. OU is the main tier and will be for the foreseeable future.

    30,000+ battles is irrelevant. OK.

    Cheers :toast:
  18. Django

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    Just gonna point out that Cacturne will still be usable in NU, just ever so slightly less useful (mainly due to Encore). Replacing it with Sub does not do the same shit but yes, it can still Spike stack and use a strong af Sucker Punch.

    And no, OU should not really take other tiers into consideration for bans such as this, especially when the impacts are this irrelevant. All other tiers derive from OU and would not exist without it; expecting them to put a more complex ban in place just to appease a lower tier for what is, in reality, a very minor detail, is just pointless.

    Also I think he meant irrelevant in terms of OU suspect decisions DTC :toast:
  19. Tobes

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    Any further assertions (whether direct or indirect) that one of our metagames is irrelevant or worthless will be moderated.
  20. Kidogo

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    Responding to others above, particularly PK:
    It's true that skarmory is probably garchomp's best counter due to STAB resistance and whirlwind, and that other defensive checks don't have the same probability of coming out on top. (Although one that hasn't gotten much attention is bronzong--a physically defensive set will never be 4HKOed by +2 claw, and 2HKOs non yache-chomp with hp ice. This set has a 97% chance to beat chomp if I calculated correctly.)
    My main point was just that the discussion up to that point had been about offensive checks to chomp and the fact that SV makes them unreliable. In general though, defensive checks are much more secure, providing they can survive two hits from chomp at +2. For example, one effect of having SVchomp in OU might be that tangrowth becomes more used since it is a fairly reliable check--is this such a bad thing? At what point does adapting to the metagame become over-centralization?

    The comparison that keeps coming to mind for me is terrakion. Terrakion and garchomp both have access to SD, similar speed tiers, and almost unresisted STABs (although terrakion's are very arguably better). Garchomp has sand veil over terrakion, but terrakion has a much better STAB move in stone edge than garchomp does in dclaw. Yes, it's got subpar accuracy, but its power is significantly higher and it has a raised critical hit rate. Yes, SE's crit rate is 12.5% compared to 20%--but that's still a significant portion of the time that something like slowbro comes in to tank the hit only to be OHKOed by a +2 SE crit. This seems to be quite comprable to SV to me--it lowers the reliability of a check in a way that is totally impossible to prepare for, and terrakion doesn't have to spend a turn using focus energy to achieve that (the counter to the twave comparison). So instead, terrakion's best checks are offensive--lati@s, scizor, breloom, etc., whereas garchomp is more reliably checked defensively.

    Having said all this, I am not strongly opposed to a SV ban--in fact, I think that none of the points I've outlined are really any reason for SV to be allowed in OU. Just because IMO garchomp can be checked does not mean it will be beneficial for the metagame to add another luck-based element. In addition, the fact that such defensive checks are necessitated seems to be too centralizing--just because they are reliable, at least to an extent that seems reasonable to me, doesn't mean that every team should be forced to carry one or be liable to lose to SV hax at any moment. At this point I think my vote could go either way, but I probably will vote to ban sand veil, not because it's necessarily impossible to deal with, but because another luck-based factor is not especially welcome, especially when it shapes team-building to the extent SVchomp would.
  21. Danger Mouse

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    Jolly +2 Garchomp LO Fire Fang vs. 252/252 Relaxed Bronzong:
    Fire Fang: 238-282 (70.41 - 83.43%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Jolly +2 Garchomp LO Fire Fang vs. 252/232 Impish Skarm:
    Fire Fang: 214-252 (64.07 - 75.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Though Bronzong and Skarmory are touted as being the best 'counters' to Garchomp, both of them are 2HKO'd by one of its common coverage moves at +2, which means neither can switch in safely. When I run garchomp, a predicted Skarmory switch in is just a roasted metal bird. If you throw Sand Veil into the equation, it becomes even more ridiculous, as Skarmory tries (and fails) to whirlwind it out thanks to hax.
    I'm reaaaally close to voting reqs now: over the 1900 benchmark, but my variance is still too high so need to get more battles in, but PS! seems to be down at the moment so meh. Once it's all said and done I'll be in a better position to talk more about sand veil and the OU metagame in general.
  22. PK Gaming

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    Yeah don't worry kidogo i'm not really trying to jump on your case, I get everything you're trying to say. I was just refuting the claim that Sand Veil doesn't really bother Garchomp's defensive checks, since it's still not true. Disregarding Skarmory (again), Bronzong needs to contend with Fire Fang OR Outrage (which does a ton) and it's liable to get worn due to not having a reliable recovery move. Hippowdown & Tangrowth have legitimate chances of beating Garchomp but instantly fail if they miss once. Sand Veil does have a lasting effect on them, it's not just offensive teams that suffer; balanced teams get wrecked if their defensive wall misses once.

    And to be honest, there's already a good reason to use Tangrowth to check Garchomp, we don't need Sand Veil's existence to justify using it.
  23. tehy

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    Why are we disregarding skarmory, pk? Plus 2 fire fang 2hitko's skarmory, unless it's lefties and no SR. So all it needs is one missed whirlwind and GG. Bronzong too. Yeah, i know you're talking about the sub set, but i've seen fire fang instead of EQ, not to mention that non-sub garchomp does still exist.
  24. PK Gaming

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    Oh eh well, yeah that's totally a thing and all, my bad haha. I didn't want to want to make Garchomp out to be some god, but yeah those calcs are pretty convincing.

    Well there ya go. :happybrain:
  25. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2008
    Messages:
    2,930
    Uh yeah, broheim, it is in this discussion. You don't see me invading NU threads saying "Stop guys! Banning Jynx will encourage people to use it in UU and RU!" We went through like 3+ pages of discussion about how banning Sand Veil will hurt Cacturne's feelings only for everyone, save for a few outliers, to come to the conclusion that it ultimately isn't that important for what we're trying to do here.

    I'm probably wasting my time though, since we're just going to end up talking about it again in two more pages LOL.
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