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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Enter Sandman

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Iconic, Sep 12, 2012.

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  1. nyczxjay

    nyczxjay
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    I agree with the above post. And while this test is primarily for SV under the Evasion Clause, I believe that in the spirit of keeping things consistent across the board, Snow Cloak should also be removed from the metagame along with Sand Veil (if the council opts to remove SV) since all pokes who have SC have access to another ability now as well. In my opinion I think this creates a uniform and nondiscriminatory Evasion Clause. While Hail is not very common, I have had frustrating instances where a SC has cost me a match in the same fashion that SV has.

    Also, this post is not intended to start some kind of discussion on SC so please don't start up with it as this is not the thread for that. I am simply expressing my opinion.
  2. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
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    I already had mentioned it before but I would like to go into more detail on using Salac Berry on Garchomp. It seems like it has been somewhat overlooked as I rarely see talk of it (although it has gotten more popular on the ladder). However, I feel it is generally superior to more commonly used items like Leftovers, LO, Yache Berry (I’m not considering Bright Powder since I strongly doubt we Smogon will let it come back to OU. The only possible version of Chomp that may end up out of Ubers is Rough Skin so I only be discussing those.).

    Garchomp has massive attack stat that is easily boosted to insane levels with a single Swords Dance along with excellent dual STABs. He also has great, and sometimes overlooked, bulk that allows him to tank powerful neutral attacks as well as x4 SE attacks from defensive Pokemon. On top of that, his mere two weaknesses allow him to easily take advantage of this natural bulk (unlike something like Tyranitar). His 102 base speed isn’t to be ignored either since, isn’t as fast as it used, it means that Garchomp is far from slow. All this makes him a perfect candidate for Salac Berry as he can use his bulk to get the boost he needs to clean teams with his mighty offensive powers. The best part is that Garchomp doesn’t even need his Salac Berry to make an impact as he plays the same as any other SD Garchomp, just with the added bonus of being able to clean up his own mess. (Most of the time, though, I just straight up swept once my teammates took out their revenge killer and softened the defensive check)

    SDChomp is excellent wallbreaker that is capable of 2HKOing the bulkiest of walls while avoiding a OHKO back. This is further complicated by the addition of trappers like Magnezone and Gothitelle or the possibility of a coverage move being used over Substitute. This means that the most reliable way to stop Garchomp is to revenge kill it. Salac Chomp makes things even worse forces teams to use priority users or faster revenge killers to avoid being swept. Even this may not be enough as they can’t reliably switch into Garchomp. This means that a Pokemon has to be sacrificed, preferably one that is capable of removing its potential substitutes, so that the revenge killer can have a clear shot at the Land Shark himself. This makes the metagame even more offensive based than BW2 already is.

    Although it may seem that Salac Garchomp is the same as Salac Terrakion, there are important differences that separate the two. Terrakion has less bulk and more weaknesses than Garchomp meaning that he has a harder time setting up and is much more reliant on Substitute to get the Salac Berry boost. Garchomp can take advantage of this to drop Substitute for a coverage move to get past his typical counters whereas such a feat is inadvisable and simply impossible for Terrakion. Terrakion’s STABs leave it with the infamous Stone Miss whereas Garchomp isn’t forced to take such gambles. Although Terrakion has a better speed, even this isn’t as great as it would seem since the majority of speedy Scarfers have either 108 or 110 base speed meaning that all he gains is the chance to win a speed tie. Something like setting up a sweep on a healthy Hippowdon switch in is never going to happen for Terrakion while it is a very possible nightmare for Garchomp.

    My Weedle Adventures (open)
    When I first became aware of Salac Chomp I decided to test the theorymon with a rushed Volt Turn team of 5 and Weedle (Magikarp is overdone and he can’t absorb Toxic Spikes). It actually did work and I was sure to succeed. However, my boredom and impatience with laddering along with the sudden rise in teams with physical wall + speedy scarfer + priority, eventually sent me down into the low 1800s when it was too late for me to win enough points to catch it back up. (Was somewhere in the 2000s with a 70-80 deviation before I dropped to nothing). Although it isn’t really substantial enough to use as an argument, I thought it would worthwhile to share just how much a difference it makes to have those ScarfKeldeos on team when dealing with SalacChomp. I am certain there will a significant rise in usage of 103+ speed scarfers if Garchomp comes back to OU (I found ScarfLatios to function extremely well in very offensive Suspect Metagame).


    Here are some logs to show Garchomp in action
    Show Hide

    Just him cleaning a team:
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oususpecttest2409806

    Somewhat shows Garchomp being a team player and a late game cleaner:
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oususpecttest2455651

    Garchomp doesn't let you take chances and forces you to go for the throat ASAP:
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oususpecttest2454707

    Garchomp takes out the potential revenge killer (with some hax) and comes back later to sweep:
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oususpecttest2406193

    Tanks a Dragon attack and cleans (-1 Outrage = +0 Dragon Claw):
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oususpecttest2410308









    Oh (open)
  3. Ginku

    Ginku Farbenprächtig
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  4. VictorVonDoom

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    So, we're going to talk about fair? I had a response two nights ago, but my internet ate my response and I was too...on edge...to re formulate the response. But to address 'fair' in competitive sense. You're sense of honor/fair/what have you is not mine. It's not the next person. The person after them? Sure, it's possible. In the same sense you use Ice Shard to lose to a Chomp, under SV, I say he still has a super majority percentage to hit. (Taken from the text: In Generation V, Sand Veil lowers the accuracy threshold (user accuracy/target evasion) by 20% resulting in an overall 25% boost to evasion — not 20% as stated in game.) Admittedly I'm not good a math. So my thinking it means Ice Shard now hits at basically 75% could be wrong. Clearly not the 100% it was before, but it still hits way more often then not. That still seems fair to me.

    I would like to see if anyone can answer my questions.

    Have we expressed all options to combat Sand Veil? Have we built all the available teams under Overused that can possibly combat Sand Veil?

    Is there a possible way for us to see all teams built and used for this testing, both with Garchomp and those built to try and beat him?

    If we are not building every iteration of teams of OU pokemon, then we can't ban the ability. We're, again, not talking about using niche RU, UU, or NU pokemons. Using OU pokemon that have abilities/moves that can try to compete with SV. I new to this forum, and I'm new to Smogen's tiering. But I've been playing other games competitively for years. Luck has always been a blessing and a sore spot. And I've always approached the scene with an (sometimes ill worded) eye towards 'luck.'

    There are moves like Gravity that, unless I'm mistaken, counteract the evasion aspect. And thought considered a gimmick, there are effective gravity users for all teams. And having a 'Gravity user' wouldn't mean sacrificing a spot on the team to run one. Given that I read about Rain teams in the BW2 meta running things, that also would counteract Sandstorm. Eliminating the boost. And these two were just off the top of my head, and I'm sure considered by better players than I (and I would probably say that means all of you).

    And if these inclusive tests mean SV is unbeatable, then yeah. It destroys the game and drives people away. If everyone (or in a democracy super majority) agrees to use evasion bans, then yes, all forms of evasion need to be banned. But not just a pick and choose. Snow Cloak needs to go. Sand Veil needs to go. Moody needs to go. Smokescreen needs to go. Sand attack needs to go. You get my point.

    I suppose since I hadn't the time to play and try it, I can't really say much. Nor do I have lots of time to play as is. It just seems like everyone is quick to jump on the ban(ne)dwagon because of a thing called luck. And again, that's always been a...touchy subject with me.
  5. Lord of Bays

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    Part of the cause of banning a Pokemon is overcentralization. I believe the exaggeration has been made that the typical DPPt team before Garchomp's ban was Sand Streamer/Garchomp/Garchomp Counter 1/Garchomp Counter 2/Garchomp Counter-counter 1/Garchomp Counter-counter 2. That's boring and a terrible metagame.

    More than that, having to resort to obscure and highly underused Pokemon to beat him (think using Golurk to beat Terrakion) and even then not having a guaranteed stop to him is cause for concern. But as soon as we take Sand Veil out of the equation we suddenly have half the viable OU metagame capable of checking him through revenge-killing or walling him, but we still have this extremely badass Pokemon that adds to the metagame.

    And to use your words, I have had time to play and test, and players FAR better than you and I have had the time to play and test, and we almost all agree that Sand Veil is shit and it needs to go.
  6. StairFall

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    Well I believe once rough skin chomp comes down I'll give him 3 months tops for overcentralizing the metagame. But I'm not here to talk about that now, I want to talk about sand veil.

    Sand veil (and snow cloak obviously ) both increase evasion the way double team and bright powder do. Those are banned however sand attack is not, why? Because sand attack is used against the player and can be remedied by the player by switching out. Any team made has the ability to switch out, to defeat sand veil you need alternate weather, gravity or a lens which sone teams won't have.

    Crits are equally likely for both players, high power low accuracy moves are a calculated risk taken while teambuilding, accuracy lowering moves can be fixed by the player and can attacking in the presence of them is a risk.

    Sand veil is none of these things, when sand veil is used it takes the accuracy drop/evasion boost out of the players hands and turns it into an unfair weapon that the opponent can do next to nothing to remedy. It's the ability version of bright powder. The only complicated thing here is because it's an ability rather than in item means removing it restricts the pokemon themselves, cacturne is the obvious one. And as someone who abused SV sub SD cac on a sandstorm team I can plainly say I won't miss SV, water absorb gives it a good place on my bulky rain team. What I will miss is seed bomb.
  7. PK Gaming

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    So you're ok with losing ~20% of the time in a given match? Well done on missing the entire reason why Sand Veil is a problem in OU. 80% might be acceptable for you, but it's sure as hell not acceptable for players with a mindset to win in a tournament environment. Fairness is out of the equation, if you have a 20% chance of losing a match (and by the way its entirely out of your hands, unlike when relying on sub 100% accurate moves) than that's bullshit, no matter how you slice it.

    The problem with the Garchomp in BW OU was that it was never broken on its own (yes, it's a powerful Pokemon but not anymore powerful than some of the other BW threats we need to contend it as the rough skin testing has proven). The problem was that it has an annoying broken ability that keyed off Garchomp and made the whole thing a clusterfuck of annoyance. Banning Garchomp solves jack; it's the same with Gliscor (WCOP more or less proves this) and Sand Veil is the reason why users like Eo can get away with using Cacturne in competitive OU matches, because its an ability that rewards you for doing nothing!?!

    I'm just sort of shaking my head here at anyone distraught over the idea banning Sand Veil. Like, seriously? With as big a game BW OU is, people are gonna hold a candle light vigil on my lawn for an ability that's overwhelming gimmick is fucking you over?
  8. Joel

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    I fully agreed with you up until your last paragraph. Yes, get rid of Sand Veil, I agree, but due to how your final paragraph was worded, you make it seem very fun to do, and having the ability to make things in the metagame more fun! ^_^

    Please, no to Sand Veil, but, PK, try to word it differently. It seems nearly as if you might be trying to convince some people why having Sand Veil in todays metagame might be invting.
  9. StairFall

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    Hey man don't knock cacturne, he works even in OU without the sand support. Sub+SD+suckerpunch+Drainpunch is a high risk high reward moveset that operates entirely on the ability to accurately predict your opponent. Sand veil made it broken, it wasn't what made it usable.
  10. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
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    Well the same can be said for Excadrill, no matter how much it flips your lid. It's not even close to being broken with Mold Breaker, where as Sand Rush is deemed overpowered on a Pokemon wielding all the tools to take advantage of doubling its speed. However, it was never broken on its own (required Sand Stream) and that is a key.

    A combination of SS and Sand Veil offers no lasting solution because it doesn't prevent the effects of SV from taking place, which is why Sand Veil or Garchomp need to be kept as far apart as competitively possible, and Sand Veil OR Chomp bans are the remaining, upstanding options left in the vote.
  11. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    No you do not get to shoehorn Excadrill into this thread. We're suspecting chomp and/or Sand Veil, save the Excadrill stuff for another day.

    Are you trying to reply to my post...? Uhh, because it looks like you didn't read my post.

    :chaos:
  12. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
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    I'm using Excadrill as an example; nothing more, nothing less. Do not take things out of context.

    Trying? I'm saying that you're implying banning Garchomp outright is wrong, and then that would leave banning Sand Veil as its the only option left. I agree banning SV is the best way to go about this vote, but you're arguing anything other than that is fallicious.
  13. PK Gaming

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    Who can say!

    The majority of the players i've talked to / read posts, found that Garchomp without Sand Veil isn't broken. Obviously there are some people who think Garchomp w/o SV is still broken (though I heavily disagree with that sentiment. Non-SV Garchomp isn't even close to top tier It's mid-high tier at best). What else is there to even discuss? Banning SV + Garchomp together (which the council won't even accept), Banning SV + SS together (which is dumb)or Banning Garchomp outright (which I don't like... it's better than above 2 options). I'm just saying whats on my mind, not trying to present my arguments like they're an indisputable fact (they're not). I just think that if we don't get SV now it'll fuck us for the rest of the generation.

    And I don't know man, your second post just confused me; you opened with a non sequitur. (why even bother bringing up SS + SV ban, I've already said that i'm opposed to it.) and that threw me off.
  14. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    but...my cacturne team...:pirate:

    yeah so since voting is going to be up in a few hours, I just want to make one last ditch effort at getting some more people to vote to ban sand veil in OU. a) uncompetitive, b) promotes luck/"hax", c) same thing as a double team, and we already have an evasion clause so this is just an extension of that. those are all the reasons any logical thinker should need to determine whether or not sand veil deserves a place in our favorite tier.
  15. tehy

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    i like girls too
    Lies!

    The problem with exca as an example though is that he gets something, shall i say, LEGIT from sand-double speed. It's an element that can be dealt with. How do you factor random hax into your calculations? You can try to prepare for it;weigh the odds in your favor, but since you don't know when misses are coming, you can get screwed.
  16. StairFall

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    The obvious difference between SV and other evasion/accuracy shenanigans and why it hould be included in the evasion clause is because of how it takes the possibility out of the opponent's hands and uses the hax as a weapon against the other team. Crits are equal opportunity, high power low accuracy moves are a risk taken while team building, stuff like sand attack can be remedied by the player its being used against by switching out.

    The point is that SV takes control away from the battle like bright powder, it isn't a calculated risk or anything of the sort. It's just a 20% chance outside of your control you'll lose when you shouldn't.
  17. ala

    ala
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    I agree with this mostly. Garchomp, while really good isn't even a top tier pokemon. Sand is apparently used 24% of the time (Tyranitar 20% and Hippo 4% and its probably a bit higher than that since that doesn't count the most recent weeks of testing) so that means the vast majority of the time sand isn't even used. Sand Veil is effectively useless during that time. When it is used, yeah it might net a lucky break here and there but overall is not broken, just annoying. I actually had to swap out Garchomp on my Sand team because it just didn't do its job as well as I'd hoped, even with the hax factor of Sand Veil.

    This reminds me of the Moody ban where it is not necessarily broken (Sand Veil even less so) but it had that annoying factor and made pokemon more a game of luck than without it, which was ultimately bad for the tier. I don't think Sand Veil is broken, but I am still considering a ban because it doesn't add anything of value to the game except ANOTHER way to hax your opponent. Pokemon has enough ways to do that as it is.
  18. Taylor

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    I don't factor in hax because if something is overpowered, then it's liable to puncture through your team regardless of critical hits. Genesect has legitimately one counter in Heatran and that's forgetting U-turn spam. Choice Specs Bug Buzz with +1 SAtk from Download is 2HKOing literally every Pokemon that resists Bug-types; that is something to worry about.

    On to the topic at hand, if you read my posts at the beginning of this thread then you will see me arguing for a Sand Veil ban. We must keep this discussion related to Garchomp and SV only.
  19. tehy

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    Yeah, i know you argued for a sand veil ban. Just wanted to be extra dickish, but also insert in that, unlike all the other bans, sand veil is something that you can't really plan for, except with never-miss moves, which are even less viable than stuff that countered previous banned pokemon. Excadrill might or might not have been crazy broken, but it's more like an equation. If Sand is up then X. X on a team might be "Go from heatran to latios on EQ, fire blast if he sd's, go from latios to conkeldurr on x-scissor/rock slide, surf if he sd's, drain punch him in the face". See? You've got a plan. With garchomp, your plan could be "Go from lucario to salamence on the EQ, ice punch of he sd's, go from mence to genesect on the dragon claw, outrage if he sd's, ice beam". Except that plan might come out with a miss and GG. So unlike excadrill, you can't even plan effectively for it-just hope you get lucky.

    Which, in my opinion, is exactly what competitive strategy games shouldn't be about.
  20. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
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    I was trying to skim through the old Garchomp testing thread to see the arguments for why RS Chomp is fine in OU but I don't have the patience for it. Can anybody fill me in on what they were? All I could find was that it's speed isn't as fast as it used to be and that you could revenge kill it. Honestly, I don't see much difference between 102 and 108 base speed besides Mienshao, Zoroark, and coin flips with the 5 fighters. Also, how is revenge killing a good way to deal with anything? The name itself implies that you have to scrap something to bring in your ScarfSect and even then Garchomp isn't bothered by SR so there is nothing stopping him from just switching out and coming back in later. (Plus, Salac Berry makes revenge killing even harder) Like I said though, I didn't have the patience to find all the arguments so if somebody could sum them up for me that would be great.
  21. yee

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    It seemed like people were mostly happy about how good Rough Skin Chomp was, especially against Voltturn. It was establish as a popular addition to the metagame but it was also noted that other offensive teams had few problems keeping pace with it, not missing so much, and defensive teams could actually counter it because they wouldn't miss-

    I haven't done the calcs for a while but Sub SD w / Sand has the 70%ish chance to get a free move, and a chance higher than a crit to get an extra SD or Sub. If it gets two free turns, you just lost unless you have Skarm / Quag / Cloyster. I could go deeper into how that second boost will almost always be the game but we've been there. A crit alone would almost never change the outcome of a game (although it would change a lot of posts in tournament threads). Take away it's ability to set up on counters and it becomes absolutely checkable. Tangrowth will almost always beat it, Slowbro can now take it on etc. and you won't be nearly required to run the Skarmory safety net to safely handle Sub SD sets.
  22. ala

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    Garchomp has several hard counters such as Skarmory/Bronzong/Hippowdon who can take +2 attacks and Phaze/Hp Ice Chomp to death and heal up to counter him again (minus Zong). Revenge killing isn't the best way to deal with any threat, I agree, but Dragons are a different beast. Most of the time I find myself luring Chomp (or any other Dragon) into using Outrage so I can revenge it 100% the next turn. Dragon Claw is weak and opens Chomp up to having even more counters. Garchomp really isn't that much better than other Physical heavy hitters like Terrakion or Landorus. All 3 are fast, have great coverage and have ways of dealing with their counters. Sand Veil is the only real advantage Garchomp has since 20% of the time it comes out on top against one of its checks/counters. That's a pretty big deal considering how important that can be in a match. Rough Skin Chomp doesn't have this advantage, and to me is around the same threat level as the other two I previously mentioned.

    You should consider reading the thread though, that's just my take on it so if you want to make a serious vote it is probably the best way to do so.
  23. Ghostbone

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    I....what? You can't be serious saying crits don't change the outcome of games. They're the second most common way to lose to bs after misses.
    You realise tangrowth and slowbro (and skarm) are both cleanly 2HKO'd by chomp while failing to OHKO back right?
    Even if chomp's taken prior damage, yache berry exists, slowbro and tangrowth can't hope to beat yache chomp (well tangrowth can try and sleep powder....)

    As for offensive teams handling chomp, offensive teams could handle Ekiller arceus if you forced them to. (Not well, but add a scarf terrakion or ditto....explosion genesect even, there are actually numerous options, hell, for stall, forretress and skarm wall ekiller better than they wall chomp)
    Theway the meta "handles" chomp is by running multiple faster scarfers, and not letting any of your pokemon give chomp a chance to set up.

    From my own experience, stall outright loses to chomp, Skarm, Hippowdon, Ferrothorn, Slowbro, Tangrowth, etc. are all easily 2HKO'd at +2 while failing to do enough back. Chomp isn't short of ways to get that +2 either, come in on a pokemon weak to ground and your opponent either cuts their losses and sacks that poke....or watches you set-up and take out 2-3 members without any trouble. I really don't think a meta where heatran, jirachi, tentacruel etc. are unviable because of chomp is a healthy one.
  24. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    The thing is, aside from skarm and spikes shenanigans, the rest only lose to Garchomp, only if because Garchomp has locked itself into outrage. Any half decent stall team should have a steel type or a check after that to get rid of that locked Garchomp. So stall doesn't have to much of an issue, although yeah, with yache it stands a good chance to make massive holes in teams before going down, which is partially a reason I think it should just stay uber, but clearly at this point that's not happening.
  25. Lavos Spawn

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    Stall isn't threatened at all by any version of Garchomp, because Skarmory wals it hardcore. Even YacheChomp, or SD + 3 attacks as I prefer to call it, is not a guaranteed 2HKO on Skarmory, doing between 48.5% - 57.49% per hit. If it's Chomp v. Rain Stall, then obviously Skarm's not going to be threatened by Fire Fang at all (another case for using Aqua Tail imo). I don't know what SD Chomp really threatens, to be honest...every team I've ever made has some way or another of handling it. No reason for the Rough Skin version to not be OU. Sand Veil, of course, is a much different story.
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