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np: BW Ubers Suspect Round 4 - When You Sleep

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by bojangles, May 15, 2013.

  1. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre: 76-91 (18.85 - 22.58%) -- possible 6HKO

    Bad Dreams: 1/8 = 12.5%
    Stealth Rock: 1/8 = 12.5%

    12.5% + 12.5% + 18% = 43%

    So your SpDef Ogre can't possibly hope to take any less than 43% trying to come in on Darkrai. Seeing as it can't rest anymore not only is it going to be nothing more than a short term answer to Darkrai (it can only come in once more after the initial sleep) but it also can't be used to handle any other special threat. (I suppose you could allow Darkrai to cripple your Choice Scarf user as well but then it becomes unreliable for revenge killing and it isn't going to last any longer than a SpDef Ogre. Plus, Sub spam til a wake up trolls any Sleep Talk choice user.)
  2. locoghoul

    locoghoul

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    simple question: how many battles do you need on average to meet the deviation reqs? I've had 51 battles so far and I'm still sitting at +/- 73. I think I kinda want to meet the reqs but at the same time decreasing deviation one number per battle is not a lot of fun.
  3. Sweep

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    around 80 or so, but it varies from 65-85 depending on how much the Gods like you.
  4. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    It really depends on who you played early on and, to a much lesser extent, who you are playing now as well as your win-lose record. The fastest way to drop deviation is to lose so if you have a strong enough Glicko2 you can just forfeit a bunch to get that deviation to plummet.
  5. locoghoul

    locoghoul

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    ^ lol. I considered that at some point but the few times I lost, I was losing like +40 points on average. OK good to know, thanks
  6. Imma Fly

    Imma Fly Who needs wings when you have Rokushiki?
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    Made the reqs

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    Sleep Clause really needs to be retained...
  7. Scarface

    Scarface

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    I just made the reqs:

    [​IMG]

    To be honest, a couple of matches I only won by spamming dark void+sub+dark pulse with Darkrai and lost to Darkrai as well.

    Like user Haunter said, sleep clause is so important in this metageme. So Sleep Clause definitely needs to stay.
  8. Alf'

    Alf'
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    Made the reqs too:
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    If you have a sleep talker like kyogre or gene, it's easy to play around darkrai. I don't remember a battle where I lost because of darkrai to be honest. [​IMG]
  9. D4RR3N

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    Finally made reqs, took me like 2 days. When I first started laddering, I was using a pretty standard Rain Offense team. It took me around 10 matches to realize that without sleep clause my team is pretty much boned by Darkrai as it's faster then most of my teams. At that time I was browsing through the forums and talking to some Uber players, and I was told Sand does pretty well in this metagame. So I started laddering with a sand team. It done pretty well for me, but when I came close to getting reqs I kept losing a match or two and it keeps on repeating. This is when I got myself a HO team with both Lum Double Dance Groudon and Lum Bulky SD Arceus, thus making reqs with it.

    After playing this meta, I realized how important sleep clause is in every single metagame. Most of the teams I see on the ladder are either packed with Sleepers (Darkrai, Smeargle, and even Butterfree) or packed with Lum Berry Sweepers. The previously OP sweeper in the name of Arceus-Ghost has also dropped drastically in usage too. And with sleep clause disabled, SmashPass teams also became really dangerous to face. In my opinion, sleep clause should stay banned, otherwise it'll be no fun playing ubers anymore as you have to either run a bunch of Lum Berry Mons or RestTalkers, thus making some of the supposely vialable mons not vialable.
  10. Lusso

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    In my opinion, remove this clause is a joke.
  11. DarkWinds55

    DarkWinds55

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    I'm going to be quite honest here. I am f***ing tired of Dark Void giving free wins. The metagame cannot become a bunch of Lum Berry Sweepers and Sleep Inducers. The Sleep Clause is important. End of story.
  12. polop

    polop
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    Yeah this is Imma Fly's picture. I'm lotol on the giant ladder picture.
    [​IMG]

    I've also made reqs. My opinion on sleep clause is quite split. I originally was using teams that we're over prepared against sleep, but they ended up doing really weirdly. I later ended up switching to a team that used Sleep Talk Scarf Dialga to check sleep (because for some reason everyone wants to leave a Darkrai on a sleeping Dialga, idk), but the point is this team was created before sleep clause testing began. So removing the clause doesn't always require a complete change in team structure. I haven't lost yet to Darkrai or Butterfree or Smeargle, but from previous replays and posts I can see why people are annoyed by those mons.

    Honestly the only matches I have lost are more due to those of lag and paralysis hax and when I just played terribly. Sleep was never an issue. In fact it just seemed to make predictions that much bigger. If the darkrai predicted I'd switch to something to absorb sleep and used substitute I'd have to use the mon already inside to break that sub and pressure darkrai more. I'd think matches with more prediction is something everyone would want, but from the responses on the thread they don't appear to be so. I would rant more but my opinions are really most like Focus's.

    Regardless removing the clause had a far more smaller impact then I was expecting it to have. Currently leaning towards a decision with abstain more then retain or do not retain.
  13. Vinc2612

    Vinc2612 I guess I'll never learn
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    I also made it

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  14. complete legitimacy

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    Sleep Clause needs to stay in my opinion. I used a team that had specially defensive RestTalk Kyogre to check Darkrai, but I often lost when I wasn't in control of my own sleep cycle. You can run a bunch of Sleep Talk mons to try and beat Darkrai, but you're really just taking the game out of your own hands and putting it into the hands of the RNG. While I don't think that a metagame without Sleep Clause would be the worst thing ever, I certainly prefer one with it. Once my Kyogre was beaten by Darkrai (likely), it could outspeed and put to sleep everything on my stall team while I couldn't really do anything to stop it except pray for a Dark Void miss. I actually got destroyed by Butterfree one time because it put literally my entire team to sleep and kept phazing to reset my sleep cycles. I think that the BW sleep mechanics are just the icing on the cake of why Sleep Clause should be retained.
  15. Pocket

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    Using slow bulky RestTalkers is the wrong approach, from what I found. First of all, you usually want to keep control of their rest cycle to maintain their health. Rest-Talk is a method for bulky mons to gain health with Rest, and by absorbing Sleep from Darkrai, you're denying these Pokemon to heal themselves.

    Basically your anti-Darkrai / sleep Pokemon should not be relying on Rest for recovery. THat's what makes Ho-oh a good sleep absorber, because it can Sleep Talk Roost and heal its health while asleep.

    It's also a lot easier to deal with sleep if your Sleep Talker is faster thank Darkrai. Say Scarf Genesect, Scarf Zekrom, Scarf Dialga, etc. It basically prevents Darkrai from causing havoc behind a Substitute. I'd say a defensive team with Sleep Talk Scarf Genesect as the primary Darkrai measure backed by RestTalk Ogre or Sleep Talk Ho-Oh can easily hinder Darkrai's sweep.

    In the end of the day, Uber tier is still competitive with unrestricted sleep. In fact, minimizing the effect of sleep is a tactic play all on its own, and it doesn't involve re-building a team from scratch
  16. dinodino56

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    woo i made the req
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    Darkrai is not a huge problem and can be played around easily from my perspective.I am not sure if we should take off Sleep Clause ,but it looks like it will be easier for newer players just to pick the big 2(Kyogre and Arceus) and Darkrai and win a Battle.

    I am just happy i made req
  17. Melee Mewtwo

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    Which just reinforces what I said before that the presence of unlimited sleep drastically speeds up the metagame. Nothing slower than Darkrai is going to serve as a good check regardless of their titanic bulk. Tank Ho-Oh takes 20% from Dpulse so if Ho-Oh so once it is asleep it can't come in safely again unless it is lucky and hits Roost with ST the very first turn. (heck it might not even get that turn if Darkrai gets mid rolls or Ho-Oh has an extra 4% prior damage) The only others that have instant recovery and sleep talk are Zekrom (252HP takes 33% min which means it won't even have a free turn the next time it comes in on Darkrai) and Arceus. (which'll have to be catered to beating Darkrai beyond already eating up a far too valuable slot for Sleep Talk. Seeing as Arceus is Stall's best way to close up holes, having to spend it on a single mon is a huge blow to it.)

    The only defensive team that is happy about running a Scarf mon is Balance. (Stall very often prefers having another wall since Scarf mons, especially Genesect, can't switch into much) Sleep Talk Scarfers are also unreliable because a Darkrai simply has to spam Substitute til they wake up. Often times, it doesn't even need to go that far as the sleeping Scarfer will already be at 50% the second time it comes in to check Darkrai (Bad Dreams + SR) which means if Darkrai is already hiding behind a Sub it just needs to click it enough to stall out Bad Dreams for a KO with Dpulse (in the case of Zekrom, it doesn't even need to click Sub again if it already did when Zek came in.) Also, running Sleep Talk on your Choice Scarfer really hurts them as they'll need to give up coverage moves for reliability and/or be unreliable/completely incapable of checking threats they could before. (such as Genesect checking Ray with Ice Beam or a runaway booster with Explosion) This means that you'll have to invest multiple slots into multiple Darkrai checks and if they are going to serve as such they can't waste any of their HP being used to handle other threats which means you have 3/4 Pokemon against Darkrai's 5 teammates. (and, no, Arceus/Kyogre doesn't do anything close to that)

    So yes, adapting to sleep (and this is just Darkrai) does heavily change team building. (unless you already happened to have spdef Ogre, defensive Ho-Oh and a ScarffMon. Then it is just changing sets and maybe some of your teammates to account for the fact that those 3 can't be used for nearly as much as they could before if Darkrai is in the team preview) To be honest, I'm not sure what you mean by competitive. If you are talking about being able to win or lose then yeah, Ubers will always still be competitive. If you are talking about enjoying what you are playing on a competitive level then, with how subjective enjoyment is, I'd say that is perfectly possible. All I know, is that to do so you would have to like shallow, very high paced and luck based metagames. (Personally, that sounds really bad to me. I mean, BW2 OU bad.)
  18. Namikaze

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    Well seeing as how your analysis only looked mostly as stall teams dealing with Darkrai, your conclusion isn't really valid. Saying that those team building shouldn't have to change to deal with sleep is an empty argument since if the meta changes, teams are going to have to keep up one way or another. It's not like every match will pair a sleep abuser with a stall team for that matter either. There are other playstyles that people can and have used even in this meta. For the most part, i've seen that the main supporters of keeping sleep clause in effect are those who haven't been able to adapt and deal with it. But there are notable people i've played against online who consistently show that sleep can be played around relatively easily with just a little preparation and intelligent playing. Whether its an arbitrary lum berry or a scarfed sleep talker, it's not like these mons will become dead weight after they've been hit with sleep once and these players realize this and make moves so that falling asleep doesn't warrant an instant win condition for their opponent. Games will be fast paced as they usually are in Ubers and even with sleep clause in effect, luck was something we never did away with in any given meta. In my opinion, shallow games only occur in matches where the players themselves have a huge gap in experience and the more experienced player obliterates their opponent through sleep abuse.

    At some point, i thought sleep should remain because of how easily i was able to reach the top 50 in the ladder. but once i got there, the quality of players changed drastically to a more intelligent crowd. In my opinion, without sleep clause, people will eventually realize that simply sticking lum berry or sleep talk on a pokemon won't automatically guarantee you have sleep beaten (as they seem to be doing now, hence the complaining when they get beaten by sleep abuse) similarly to how having an arceus check doesn't mean you won't get swept by it. My only concern and argument aginst sleep clause is that the ubers player base will suffer since new and/or inexperienced players will be unable to cope with the meta and lose interest quickly.
  19. polop

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    Err, okay, there are a few things wrong with this post. First, all stall (except SOME variants of classic stall) generally need a sort of revenge killer (the article is slightly outdated but it still gets the message across) to stop the threats it can't stop (Ex: stop DD quaza from completely destroying it (it can't truly be walled can it?)) so putting sleep talk on a revenge killer isn't THAT big of a hassle (just make sure it can stop Darky + other mon you needed it to check). The issue with Darkrai using Sub to stall out sleep talk scarf mons is that it has to predict right. Darkrai has to use Sub as it switches in, and the turn it does that can be predicted and the mon inside can be used to break the sub / annoy Darky w/t Roar / Taunt. Really IMO the game has turned more into a prediction war between whose right (its a 50 / 50 split so not exactly unfair either), and isn't it right to award the player who predicted right? I'll agree running Sleep Talk on a Scarfer is annoying, but its not THAT bad, yeah the scarfer will have more trouble revenge killing but generally the teams I see with Darkrai don't use it to setup more sweeps for another because the idea of doing that generally ruins defensive synergy since you now have 2 mons that aren't very capable of taking hits. HO could use something like this, and I'm not saying its a bad idea, but realize in doing so they make they're own team more vulnerable to being swept as well. With this being said, realize its not completely necessary to over prepare against sleep, and in some cases using Sdef rest talk ogre, sdef sleep talk ho-oh, and scarf mon might be a bit of a stretch. If you don't feel that so be it, you've still got a very nice bit of protection from Specially Offensive mons, who can probably contribute to fighting those 5 team mates of Darky.

    As for what a desirable metagame is defined by, I think this thread probably best defines it.

    With this being said I take no side for or against sleep clause to stay.
  20. Melee Mewtwo

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    You misunderstood my arguments. I was refuting Pocket's claim that Sleep has little effect on teambuilding which is false because it heavily punishes every playstyle not called HO due to the need to deny sleep abusers free turns. (since free turns = free kills and very possible a clean sweep) Overall, my point is that sleep heavily perverts the metagame making it unenjoyable due to becoming shallow (HO becomes the only truly good playstyle), incredibly fast paced (you have to deny free turns to something with 125 base speed and you need to win before you run out of short term checks), and luck based (Sleep Talk, mulitple 50/50 predictions where the risk-reward is heavily to the advantage of the sleeper, Darkrai speed ties, DVoid misses, etc. These are all game deciding instances of luck and very commonplace which is why I feel they are more relevant than the occasional crit or Thunder para.).

    This is a horrible assumption and completely false. I got reqs solely off of abusing a sleep (Flutterby) where I would use a gimmick team to rush the free turn I needed to win me the game. I know very many others have gotten reqs also by abusing sleep as well as playing against it.

    In any case, we have a fundamental disagreement in our banning philosophies. I'm not interested as much as whether or not something (in this case, sleep) is beatable, I'm looking at the metagame that results from it because that's all I care about when I play Pokemon. (keep in mind the level of brokeness will obviously play a part in how it affects the metagame)

    "Even in stall, it sometimes becomes necessary to go on the offensive" - the article
    "Stall very often prefers having another wall" - my post

    My post seems to agree more with the article than your claim that it generally needs to have a scarfer. Nitpicking word choice aside, the reason that Stall doesn't like having a Choice Scarf mon is because (although they can force a lot out) they can't switch into anything themselves (except some specific scenarios like Scarf Kia on Ogre spouts) which means that to get them in you either have to rely on prediction or sacking a Pokemon. Seeing as stall very often gives offensive threats multiple free turns this is very undesirable as they need every member to stay as healthy as possible. (so sacking isn't good) Balance likes having a Scarf mon though because the don't invest nearly as much into their defensive core and, in general, focus more denying those free turns to the top wall breakers and offensive threats. (so a Choice Scarf mon serves as a nifty plan B to delay a potential sweep so that balance can pull off their own or play around the threat) Also, sleep talking scarf mons are going to check a whole lot less since they have to give up coverage moves to have a consistent sleep talk for Darkrai. (so it is still a hassle) And yes, DD Ray is very manageable (ignoring Outrage locking and SR weak + LO recoil) by a defensive Arceus form. (you can check/counter anything with the right Arceus set which is what makes it such a god send for Stall)

    Yes, Darkrai has to predict but the prediction is a lot easier for him than the other player. Clicking Substitute is a safe option in general as either the OP will switch (which is what you want) or he will attack (okay, you try again, they have to attack every time you Sub and switch on the very turn you Dvoid)/ Taunt (very rare and if you are slower then Rai still has the Sub)/ Roar (possible but a risky play in general and eats up moveslots). Also, in all the scenarios where you predict properly you only succeed in delaying Darkrai and maybe getting some additional chip damage on him whereas predicting wrong will cost you a mon to sleep or his attacks. This very unfair prediction and further encourages you having to avoid by adapting to offensive teams that deny Darkrai the free turn to force this on you.

    I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are talking about in this third bit. Could you repeat it?

    The point I made with my damage calculations (all min rolls too) is that the Sleep Talk checks are all already trying to grab as many points of HP as possible since they are such soft checks to Darkrai. This means that you can't be wasting any more HP using these Pokemon to handle Darkrai's teammates as you need all 2-3 of them to properly delay a Darkrai sweep.

    I referenced the very same thread earlier and even made a post where I detailed in what ways the lack of sleep clause in the metagame made it less desirable.
  21. Gogeta

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    Finally made reqs after way too much forfeiting, thought I'd end up with too low a glicko rating but it worked out:
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    The enthusiasm I had early on in the test has now completely gone. After rising above your standard 1650 rated chump diggities, a lot of the creativity I saw has vanished. In general, 90% of the teams I faced once I reached ~1900+ featured Rayquaza, Genesect and Mewtwo, oddly enough. Normally they had a Kyogre thrown on, a hazard setter and an Extreme Killer/ CMceus. In high level play, a removal of sleep clause actually lowers creativity, which I couldn't see at first.

    This is most likely because a lot of niche stuff will be seen from a mile away. A good player will know not to spam Dark Void if the opponent has a Heracross in Ubers, or will sub first if something like Ho-Oh comes in. A well played Darkrai can defeat all of its checks without sleep clause, which is harmful for creativity, competitiveness, and overall enjoyment.

    I may whip up a very quick team that tests "lesser" sleep inducers to see how they play out, but right now, I'm definitely leaning towards keeping sleep clause.
  22. shrang

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    I originally could not be bothered laddering, but after a couple of matches, I didn't expect it to be so easy, so I got them. I would vote to retain Sleep Clause. I had a huge essay waiting in my brain to type up, but Fireburn's post reflected pretty much everything I wanted to say and therefore spared me the trouble.
  23. Blue Jay

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    So I got the reqs a while back and then essentially stopped playing Ubers because I really don't enjoy the current metagame. Today I started messing around a bit and then realized I'd lost the rank needed to vote. Can I still vote? I have a screenshot of when I had the rank.

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  24. Melee Mewtwo

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    As long as you have a screenshot of reqs, at any point in time during this suspect test, you can vote.
  25. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    ^ absolutely NOT. Sorry Blue Jay, but that is not acceptable. You need to get requirements DURING the suspect round so we would know you have knowledge of the metagame. Otherwise, I could just post a peak repeatedly over and over again.

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