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np: BW Ubers Suspect Round 4 - When You Sleep

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by bojangles, May 15, 2013.

  1. vyomov

    vyomov

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    I've actually seen Accelgor increasing on rain teams because of Hydration(making sleep kinda pointless really) and because it outspeeds and beats Darkrai one on one.
    The ninja is back.
    [​IMG]
  2. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
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    It's a name Enguarde came up with for the sleep phazing set. I like it so I use it, that's all. :P
  3. superstar

    superstar

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    Okay, I'm going to have to disagree that stall is fucked in this metagame. I've been using a rain stall team of Wallceus/SpDef Ogre/Def Giratina/Ferro/Excadrill/Genesect, and it's definitely viable. Two sleep talkers is enough to absorb sleeps, and Genesect helps a lot against Darkrai. He's the best scarfer in ubers anyway, so it's not like I'm giving up too much to have him on the team.

    The team has about a 65% win rate in 20 or so battles (not counting when I play noobs with Charizard or Aggron) -- this is from an alt in the top 20 on the ladder, so I'm playing good players fairly often. Thoughts on stall?

    EDIT: @AJC: this alt was already ranked 10th on the ladder from using an offensive team, so this is twenty games coming from an alt that was already ranked high.

    When I did lose, it wasn't because of sleep. It was because Genesect or Kyogre froze something, they played well (offense usually beats stall if the opponent plays well imo) or they had Mixed Rayquazza and applied enough pressure to deny hazards.

    Also, why aren't people using 252 HP Darkrai? Opposing Darkrai can't always break your subs and you are only 3HKOd by Ekiller Espeed
  4. AJC

    AJC

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    @ above you need to play at least double that before you rise above the ladder trash.

    the ladder is utterly filled with bad players and you need to play a lot to get to the decent players.
  5. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
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    I will write more about this some other time, but I played 30 games with a rain stall team on the ladder today. 29 wins. I played predominantly players who had an acre of 1900+. Feels like me and Superstar have similar experiences. I have had a great run so far, and I will work on getting more games done- and of course writing more about what I have been using and so forth in due time.
  6. AJC

    AJC

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    acre isn't the rating to be watching.

    you sould be watching the Glicko2 and GXE ones those are more accurate than that.
  7. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
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    just for safe keeping (open)
    [​IMG]


    So yeah, Flutterby was fun as hell. Too bad many of my opponents didn't really appreciate it as much as I did. (as AJC can testify lol) I almost wish I had saved all the rage quit insults I got, lol. Here's what I used. Feel free to use it if you are in a particularly dickish mood or just as obsessed as I am with fun gimmicks. (especially those that involve Gen 1!!)
  8. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    yeah so darkrai can burn in hell. this no sleep clause business has turned ubers into a metagame completely centralized around spreading sleep on the opponent's side and keeping your sleep talkers alive on your own side, nothing more. it is rare in my recent experience with this suspect ladder that a clean game actually occurs, and often games are simply decided by sleep turns, made even worse by the fact that bw sleep mechanics reset the counter upon switching. i mean of all the metagames to even consider removing sleep clause this is probably the single worst one that could have possibly been picked. i don't think i cbf to get reqs this time around but if i was going to i know i'd be voting ban in a heartbeat
  9. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
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    AJC: Of course I know this, but the Glicko2 of these players were of course higher than their ACRE, since it always is if the ACRE isn't bugged. The GXE number is an estimation on the percentage chance that you got to win the game when pressing the battle button. It's relevant, but if players had high ACRE and Glicko2 then they will have a high GXE too.
  10. Squidsauce

    Squidsauce

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    whose idea was this? were the ubers tier leaders bored or something? if you're gonna test something that's obviously broken for the lulz, do it on PO or something.

    just because ubers doesn't need much fixing, doesn't mean you need to find ways to fix it.

    alright sorry, /endrant
  11. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    honestly, worst metagame i have ever played. ubers was okay before this, but atm its worse than OU lol

    funny i never really had any interest in getting into ubers until recently, so i go to ladder for a while and after like 12 matches i start getting really fucking annoyed by how absolutely ridiculous substitute darkrai is. i'll probably keep laddering just so i can vote to keep the clause in place but holy fuck i am not going to enjoy it.

    stupidest shit ever
  12. locoghoul

    locoghoul

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    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest-19342156

    more than darkrai itself, spikes + darkrai is annoying as fuck. It's not about countering darkrai really, is what Darkrai can cripple and potentially open path for a sweep (with spikes is easier). If your phys wall gets asleep it's almost GG
  13. Pocket

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    Are you guys really having trouble with Darkrai / sleep? It only took me a few matches to get the hang of this new metagame. Even more, it only took me one or two minimal changes in my pre-existing team to make sleep a non-issue. It isn't hard for me to minimize the number of Pokemon asleep to one. The increase in Darkrai usage is quite exploitable, especially the Sub NP variants - I don't see what's so shitty about this metagame tbh. As legitimate stall users have posted, Stall isn't screwed by sleep either if they choose wisely their sleep absorber.

    Of course if you expect to use the same stall team you used half a year ago or make little effort in dealing with Darkrai, you're gonna get raped. It's just a different metagame that you have to learn. However, sleep itself has been manageable so far without the need to clause it, from what I have found.
  14. Fireburn

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    The problem with relying on a Sleep Talker is that it's horrifically unreliable. I've had multiple matches in which my SDef Rest + Sleep Talk Kyogre lost 1 on 1 to Sub Darkrai, a Pokemon its supposed to be able to easily counter, because it couldn't handle Bad Dreams + Hazards + Unlucky STalk rolls (i.e. the ones that weren't Roar because of Substitute). I couldn't just switch out either - since Darkrai was usually behind a Sub, it could easily just Void whatever I brought in and then I would be screwed. It got worse if hazards were up - your spinner is just going to get decked by Dark Void if it tries to come in. Even then, the only Sleep Talker that likes taking on Darkrai is Kyogre - Giratina has no business staying in on Darkrai, and Scarfed Sleep Talkers have to cope with that fact their revenge killing abilities are left up to dice rolls once asleep for the rest of the game (unless you run, like, one move and Sleep Talk, but that is significantly taking away from a revenge killer's utility just to deal with a status ailment or even a single Pokemon. Only Scarf Terrakion/Zekrom have the moveslots to spare for STalk imo).

    You shouldn't be forced to rely on luck to counter a Pokemon. Even stuff like EKiller and Kyogre, both of whom are massive threats, don't really require luck to beat. In contrast, Sleep Talk Kyogre only has a 33% chance to get Sub Darkrai off the field with Roar when sleeping, eating Dark Pulses and Bad Dreams damage the whole time. This makes crap like Sand Veil and even Evasion moves look like a total joke.

    IMO, locoghoul hit the nail on the head. Sometimes, it's not about Darkrai itself so much as the sheer support sleep brings to the table, especially with hazards factored in. I cannot understate how good sleep is as a support option, even if all it accomplishes is making sure you don't have full control of your moves. What if your Scarf Terrakion fails to pick CC with Sleep Talk against a set-up EKiller? What if SDef Kyogre picks Rest as Darkrai sets up Nasty Plot or Mewtwo sets up CM? Sleeping Pokemon, regardless of whether or not they are a Sleep Talker, are EXTREMELY easy to take advantage of by the rest of the team even if Darkrai itself isn't going to sweep. The deck is just stacked too heavily in the favor of the sleeper team.

    If I get reqs (I'm close), I will be 100% voting to retain Sleep Clause. The luck it adds to the game is unnecessary and just ridiculous. It's not just Sub Darkrai either. There is something seriously wrong if freakin' Butterfree is sweeping Uber teams.
  15. locoghoul

    locoghoul

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    toxic spikes *could* be an iffy counter BUT like I said, most darkrai teams are paired up with deo-s leads so the hazard advantage is not on your side
  16. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    I'll ask it again: why is the idea of running Safeguard not even taken in consideration?
    Before you say "because you're giving up a turn and a moveslot to use it", keep in mind that RestTalk uses 2 moveslots and it's not nearly as reliable, Lum Berry is a one-time use and Insomnia useres like Primeape are almost a deadweight once Darkrai is down.
    What's the point of even testing a metagame without sleep clause if you don't even bother to use the most logical anti-sleep move at our disposal?

    While it's hard to use Safeguard once Darkrai is out (Prankster Whimsicott, Mewtwo, Deoxys-A, Deoxys-S and Skymin are the only viable Safeguard users who are faster and all of them can be 2HKO'd at worst), it's pretty easy to set it up on a predicted switch.
    Giratina-O is a common Darkrai bait and can use Safeguard on the switch and then switch out without worrying about Darkrai putting something to sleep.

    Besides it's not like Safeguard is useful only against sleep, so it's not a wasted moveslot unless the opponent has no status moves at all.
  17. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    People don't want to be destroyed by Infiltrator Jumpluff?

    I guess Safeguard could work considering that Will O' Wisp is used in several defensive pokemon, and that paralysis does exist to an extent, but I'd say that relying in a single Safeguard user could prove to be too unreliable as an strategy. It doesn't have a nifty combo with Choice items either unlike Sleep Talk.
  18. Melee Mewtwo

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    Because Safeguard only lasts 5 turns and has to be used before Darkrai starts sleeping things. (I don't even know what the distribution is but that could play a part as well) All that accomplishes is continuing the trend where you have to play extremely aggressively and quickly in order to win games. (or sling Lum Berrys and Sleep Talks everywhere in the hopes the opposing Darkrai player is stupid enough to not scout a set first) I've actually played somebody who used Safeguard Wobbuffettand got lucky enough to dodge my Sleep Powders to Encore my Subs and set it up. The problem is that it has a limited amount of turns and only addresses sleep. If my Flutterby can stall out the time limit and then continue to shuffle things around a Darkrai would have no problem just shooting out some Dark Pulses or pulling out to a teammate. (which the ladder seems to have a lot of difficulty understanding)

    The thing is, basing your conclusion on ladder experiences alone is unreliable as the Ubers ladder is notorious for having very poor players. (which heavily outweighs the few who know what they are doing) I haven't seen any of them that have learned the value of keeping their Darkrai safe and those who may have caught on have such generally crappy teams that they crumble before they could even use it.

    I'm interested in how you can exploit sleep outside of mono sleep talk genies. Unless you are talking about surprising an open Darkrai with a random Sleep Talk/Lum Berry which shame on them for taking unnecessary risks to wrap a game up early. (which what I have a strong feeling is going on with these stall teams but I haven't ghosted them so they'll need to be a bit more exact with their experiences)

    Sadly, running Lum Berry/Sleep Talk is not only taxing your walls even further just to deal with status but they aren't even that effective as Fireburn pointed out. Lum Berry mons are just one time checks that can't even switch in unless they predict a Dark Pulse/NP and he isn't hiding behind a Sub. (btw, SubRai isn't the only good one just the easiest) Sleep Talk is random not only for move selection but also for the sleep counter as clicking it when you wake up isn't doing you many favors. On top of that, while you are asleep you can not rest and you take extra damage from Darkrai's Nightmare which means, on top of hazards and 135 DPulses, they won't be around for very long. Hydration/Vital Spirit/Insomnia mons are all very poor mons in general which means they are easy to exploit by the rest of the team and usually don't even have the staying power to last long against a smart Darkrai, anyways. (come on, Flutterby can beat Manaphy) Moreover, unless you run some form of anti-sleep measure on every member of your team (which'll make it easy for a the other 5 members are Darkrai's team to pick you apart) you are going to have to make predictable plays that are going to be easily exploited as a single mispredict when dealing with sleep could mean losing an additional member of your team. So to sum it up, no sleep clause is putting a lot of pressure not only on teambuilding but also on playing and, even then, the counter measures can not last into the long term. (Darkrai isn't just a sleeper you know)

    Basically, this metagame is a Deo a/s metagame where you try to setup your hazards with mons that outspeed Darkrai and then follow up with multiple attackers to keep the game in the short term and deny Darkrai as much play as possible. Keeping in my doug's characteristics of a desirable metagame, this isn't one and sleep clause shouldn't be removed.
  19. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Melee Mewtwo, we are all basing our decisions based on our ladder experiences - even you (you've been posting replays from your ladder games iirc). The experience gained from the suspect ladder is the only reliable source in selecting the right course for the suspect. You can theorymon how potentially terrible no Sleep Clause would be to the metagame, but in practice (from games that are not shitty -_-) I can say that I haven't lost a game due to sleep after I learned how to cope with it, which has not been much.

    Maybe my opinion will change once I face a master uber player who exploits sleep to broken proportions or unfairly, but the decent players whom I have faced have failed to achieve this. Perhaps it is time for me to start using Darkrai more, since I have only used it in a handful of games during this suspect phase.
  20. Melee Mewtwo

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    I'm not saying to disregard your ladder experiences completely (although, for the most part my replays were more just to share Flutterby fun) but you shouldn't base your decisions only on them either. The ubers ladder has the reputation for being low quality for a quite a while (and has gotten even worse with the accessibility of PS as even OU has felt) so it's important to analyze why you beat sleep and not just conclude that since you beat it, it isn't a problem. (and I think it's a gross exaggeration to say that you are a master Ubers player if you know how to be conservative with your win condition. If that were true than any competent RBY player must be masters since they know how to not throw a Tauros.)
  21. superstar

    superstar

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    I have a question on the mechanics of voting. I attained the proper Glicko2 rating and have the screenshots and whatnot to prove it. However, I've been fucking around with shitty teams and just realized my Glicko2 score is below the threshold to vote. Can I still vote or do I (ugh...) need to get reqs again?
  22. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    I think that once you get the reqs, no matter what the hell you were doing on the ladder, you're allowed to vote.
  23. PROBLEMS

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    Alright I'm guna write my 2cents to the Meta without Sleep Cause so far, I'm currently using a standard Sand Balance team.

    I've predominantly played teams trying to abuse the sub/nastyplot/void/pulse Darkari set so far and I've not once actually got fucked by one due to actually preparing my team to a certain degree to counter it (None of the other sets have not really caused any problems, bar some random strange Lipard sets which I've been seeing that don't accomplish anything expect waisting like 20 turns). Saying this I'd just recommend not drastically changing your teams just prepairing them like for example the changes i made to a normal team weren't much at all.. I simply changed the Genesect set too Sleep Talk/Uturn/Iron Head, Lumb Ttar (I know thats pretty much standard) and Arceus Fighting. Most most impotent point I wish to state is the fact its not the actual Cause itself thats the problem at the moment, its the teams people are making to try and counter it which aren't viable vs people like me using standard teams. I'm currently:

    Show Hide
    [​IMG]

    (The two losses were pretty much missing every 90% move and getting froze twice in a row)

    The teams I've been facing have been poorly put together and everyone's just generally forgetting about common threats and trying to counter the 'New things' which are now available now Sleep Clause has fucked off. I'm going to carry on laddering just to meet reqs but really this isn't challenging at all as the general structures and cores of the teams I've been seeing have been lacking synergy or actual checks to certain stuff.

    P.S. Sand wrecks this meta
  24. deidarasenpai

    deidarasenpai

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    Personally, I haven't actually had too many problems in the current metagame, but I don't believe I've risen above the ladder garbage just yet. One thought first though: some of you guys that aren't having too many problems are really really excellent players, and probably wouldn't have any trouble with Sleep even if it was broken. For some of us more average players, Sleep is sort of hard to deal with. So I'm suggesting that maybe we could look at both the theory of sleep and experiences on the ladder, as just because good players can deal with it doesn't mean that the banning of Sleep Clause gives us a healthier / more fun metagame.

    A couple things I'm looking into: dual status Darkrai is really fun against Sleep Talk users, as paralyzed Choice Scarf Sleep Talk users like Terrakion get screwed over. I'm currently using Dark Void / Substitute / Dark Pulse / Focus Blast to the best effects though. Random Magic Coat users like Lati@s, Giratina-O, and Arceus screw over Darkrai though ehehehe.
  25. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
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    I was rambling about sleep earlier on IRC today and I guess it wouldn't hurt to share some of that here for discussion and stuff.

    Show Hide

    <%Melee_Mewtwo> man this ubers metagame sucks
    [11:55] <%Melee_Mewtwo> its just deo offense
    [11:55] <%Melee_Mewtwo> lum ekiller, rai and blaze are reallly good in it though
    [11:55] <%Melee_Mewtwo> tops too
    [11:55] <%Melee_Mewtwo> and sand exca
    [11:55] <%Melee_Mewtwo> since all the ghosts are compromised by rai
    [11:55] <%Melee_Mewtwo> so a double switch is all to easy to punish
    [11:55] <%Melee_Mewtwo> its amazing now
    [11:55] <%Melee_Mewtwo> since all defensive cores
    [11:56] <%Melee_Mewtwo> are dismantled by darkrai
    [11:56] <%Melee_Mewtwo> so its like using gliscor in a stall meta
    [11:57] <%Melee_Mewtwo> I'm wondering how spikes will work here
    [11:57] <%Melee_Mewtwo> on one hand the meta pushes towards deoxys spikes leads
    [11:57] <%Melee_Mewtwo> on the other
    [11:57] <%Melee_Mewtwo> all the ghosts are liabilities
    [11:57] <%Melee_Mewtwo> and the offensive weather spinners are all great
    [11:58] <%Melee_Mewtwo> the games are faster and more offensive than before
    [11:58] <%Melee_Mewtwo> stall is so fucked
    [11:58] <%Melee_Mewtwo> taking games into the long term
    [11:58] <%Melee_Mewtwo> is just asking darkrai to shit on you
    [11:59] <%Melee_Mewtwo> yeah subrai is better than LO now
    [11:59] <%Melee_Mewtwo> since it doesn't need the coverage
    [11:59] <%Melee_Mewtwo> scarfrai got really good too
    [11:59] <%Melee_Mewtwo> can RK almost anything with a bit of luck
    [11:59] <%Melee_Mewtwo> anti leads all the deo a/S
    [12:00] <%Melee_Mewtwo> and can fuck with sleep talkers
    [12:00] <%Melee_Mewtwo> with a trick
    [12:00] <%Melee_Mewtwo> I'd think the best set would be
    [12:00] <%Melee_Mewtwo> dv/sub/trick/void
    [12:00] <%Melee_Mewtwo> early game anti lead and pest
    [12:00] <%Melee_Mewtwo> then throw that scarf away and start sub/voiding teams
    [12:01] <%Melee_Mewtwo> its got like everything you need to be a dick
    [12:01] <%Melee_Mewtwo> trick? check Substitute? check a sleep move? got it
    [12:01] <%Melee_Mewtwo> yeah deo a/s
    [12:01] <%Melee_Mewtwo> are good since they are spike leads that beat darkrai
    [12:01] <%Melee_Mewtwo> accelgor is cool too
    [12:01] <%Melee_Mewtwo> bad coverage though
    [12:01] <%Melee_Mewtwo> but it has some neat stuff like u turn
    [12:02] <%Melee_Mewtwo> venomoth is fun
    [12:02] <%Melee_Mewtwo> kinda slow though
    [12:02] <%Melee_Mewtwo> but would be a great way to flip things on darkrai
    [12:02] <%Melee_Mewtwo> smeargle I don't like
    [12:02] <%Melee_Mewtwo> at least as a lead
    [12:02] <%Melee_Mewtwo> its too short term and early game
    [12:02] <%Melee_Mewtwo> which is when all the lums and stuff are still around
    [12:03] <%Melee_Mewtwo> and even if you keep it safe til mid game
    [12:03] <%Melee_Mewtwo> its like unneeded
    [12:03] <%Melee_Mewtwo> its dead weight imo
    [12:06] <%Melee_Mewtwo> I saw this liepard team
    [12:06] <%Melee_Mewtwo> that managed to assist spore every time
    [12:06] <%Melee_Mewtwo> it had 6 members though
    [12:06] <%Melee_Mewtwo> I guess it doesn't work with moves that have prio
    [12:06] <%Melee_Mewtwo> it was annoying, I don't remember how I beat it
    [12:06] <%Melee_Mewtwo> oh
    [12:06] <%Melee_Mewtwo> it was all the taunt I had lol
    [12:06] <%Melee_Mewtwo> i have 3 taunters on my flutterby team rofl
    [12:08] <%Melee_Mewtwo> lol yeah fuck sleep
    [12:08] <%Melee_Mewtwo> oh sand is neat too
    [12:08] <%Melee_Mewtwo> kinda anti meta
    [12:08] <%Melee_Mewtwo> since tar beats deo leads
    [12:08] <%Melee_Mewtwo> and sand takes away lefties
    [12:08] <%Melee_Mewtwo> gets exca too
    [12:09] <%Melee_Mewtwo> yeah that's the way to do it
    [12:09] <%Melee_Mewtwo> although a double switch to rai on don
    [12:09] <%Melee_Mewtwo> and ray can't come in
    [12:09] <%Melee_Mewtwo> but ray is good since it has espeed yeah
    [12:09] <%Melee_Mewtwo> not as good
    [12:09] <%Melee_Mewtwo> since much less walls to break
    [12:10] <%Melee_Mewtwo> kinda profits from all the sleep talk scarfmons though
    [12:10] <%Melee_Mewtwo> I think it has a niche
    [12:10] <%Melee_Mewtwo> with espeed and beating weather sweepers
    [12:10] <%Melee_Mewtwo> but not so great now that 95 is slow and the raw power is kinda unneeded
    [12:11] <%Melee_Mewtwo> tailwind got that much better
    [12:11] <%Melee_Mewtwo> but I probably would only really use it with flutterby
    [12:11] <%Melee_Mewtwo> yeah
    [12:12] <%Melee_Mewtwo> getting that 3 turns jump can really swing games
    [12:12] <%Melee_Mewtwo> heck
    [12:12] <%Melee_Mewtwo> even rai likes tailwind
    [12:12] <%Melee_Mewtwo> dodges scarfmons
    [12:13] <%Melee_Mewtwo> can sub scout in front of almost everything
    [12:13] <%Melee_Mewtwo> sadly
    [12:13] <%Melee_Mewtwo> lum ekiller being so good kinda hurts tailwind
    [12:14] <%Melee_Mewtwo> the game is really aggressive though
    [12:14] <%Melee_Mewtwo> it plays out in the first handful of turns
    [12:15] <%Melee_Mewtwo> once you scout the sets or get an early spread of sleep
    [12:15] <%Melee_Mewtwo> its hard to take things back unless you clutch an ekiller/darkrai or something

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