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np: BW Ubers Suspect Round 4 - When You Sleep

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by bojangles, May 15, 2013.

  1. Zowayix

    Zowayix

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    Here's my take on things:

    Clauses and bans should only exist in Ubers if they would prevent something both overcentralizing and extremely luck-reliant (turns battles into a match of coin flips).

    If something's only overcentralizing, then that's perfectly fine. It's almost the entire premise of Ubers. Kyogre and co. dominate the tier, but they will never be banned because an Ubers tier with Kyogre/etc. in it is still very competitive. The very first thread that brought up Clause Testing explicitly mentioned this; no Pokemon will ever be banned from Ubers unless it makes the game uncompetitive (say, it had some WTF ability that had a 50% chance of OHKOing the opponent upon switch-in, and a 50% chance of KOing itself).

    If something's only very luck-reliant, but weak, then that's fine too. Evasion Clause was removed for this reason; it's just not strong enough to stand up to the behemoths of the tier. For the same reason, items like Focus Band, BrightPowder, and Quick Claw are allowed; their effects just aren't strong enough.

    Only if something is both of the above should it be banned; this would cover the OHKO Clause and Moody Clause. As was seen earlier, removing either clause causes the metagame to be centralized around OHKO moves/Moody, and said centralizer is very luck-reliant. Only if both attributes exist does something become uncompetitive.

    So if Sleep Clause causes the metagame to be stuffed with Darkrai and Smeargle, then fine - there's no way in the Ubers metagame to draw the line around what is "too" overcentralizing. I would only support retaining the Sleep Clause if it turns too many matches into luckfests, as the OHKO and Moody Clause tests did before. So far, it looks like that hasn't happened.

    Just my two cents.
  2. dragonuser

    dragonuser Today, tomorrow, and always with a frozen heart
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    Ok so finally finished with reqs. Found this metagame surprisingly similar to the "normal" ubers metagame, and tbh didn't really find sleep to be over centralizing. Will post more thoughts later.
  3. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Are there really people who are considering unbanning sleep as well? Uff, I'll address these posts later because I really want to continue my Butterfree win streak. I'll make sure to at least save some replays but there are a few things I want to point out.

    1. Don't compare clauses to Pokemon. We won't ever ban any Pokemon no matter how broken it gets (fortunately, nothing is truely broken for normal Ubers for that to be a problem) but we will maintain clauses if they shit up the metagame. Go see dougjustdoug's thread in the Policy Review subforum for a better understanding of what criteria we are using here.

    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66515

    2. Overcentralizing is a shit argument for any tier but sleep has some clear problems I'll address later.

    3. Suspect Ladder is still as shitty as the normal ladder. Just because you can beat the clueless scrubs like you did before doesn't say anything about sleep.


    Edit: Okay, I'm not saving very many replays but here is one of Flutterby beating a team that used Lum Berry on every Pokemon. The fact I got a lot of early hazards was obviously irrelevant, I just needed SR up to win.

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest-18957023
  4. superstar

    superstar

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    Okay, so I finally got reqs, peaked number 1 along the way. Deviation is a bitch to get down.
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]


    Here is the team I was using the majority of the suspect test:

    Show Hide
    Darkrai @ Leftovers
    Trait: Bad Dreams
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Dark Void
    - Substitute
    - Dark Pulse
    - Nasty Plot

    Genesect @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Download
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - U-turn
    - Sleep Talk
    - Iron Head

    Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 Atk / 252 Def / 8 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Outrage
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Roar
    - Shadow Sneak

    Rayquaza @ Life Orb
    Trait: Air Lock
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Outrage
    - V-create
    - Draco Meteor

    Groudon @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Rock Polish
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge

    Arceus-Grass @ Meadow Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 SDef / 16 Spd
    Serious Nature
    - Recover
    - Grass Knot
    - Stone Edge
    - Stealth Rock


    I originally had SpDef RestTalk Ogre instead of Giratina-O, but I decided that Darkrai wasn't a big enough threat to justify two counters. Stone Edge is there on Arceus-Grass to lure Ho-Oh. Genesect needs Iron Head to help against Kyurem-W and Rayquazza, but I didn't want to give it Ice Beam/Explosion because the risk while sleep talking is too great.

    -Darkrai was very easy to deal with for me. Genesect nearly countered it. Rayquazza often got lucky and Extremespeeded after one turn of sleep. Darkrai loved to switch into a Groudon Swords Dance, after which I would Rock Polish on the void and sweep.

    -Darkrai is an amazing sweeper, but this is mostly because no one is using proper checks to it. Here are oodles of replays showing how it functions. I think that Nasty Plot>>Focus Blast because you can beat Blissey:

    Show Hide


    This replay shows how I deal with Darkrai using my Genesect.

    Anyway, the ladder seemed to function similarly to normal. The biggest differences:

    -The big two (Extremekiller and Kyogre) are now the big three. You absolutely need a Darkrai counter or two/three checks to win in this meta, similar to how you need the same to deal with EKiller and Kyogre.

    -Calm Mind Arceus-Ghost is the biggest loser from the change. It loses hard to Darkrai and lets him get up a free Sub to start the SubVoid cycle. SD Arceus-Ghost is better in this meta.

    -SleepTalk Scarf Terrakion, SleepTalk Scarf Genesect, and SleepTalk Herracross are the best checks. Genesect offers the most utility of these three -- Terrakion can't really check Focus Blast Darkrai once it gets a sub up.

    -Ferrothorn needs to run an attack so it can break Darkrai's subs and give Dark Void a shot to miss.

    -SpDef RestTalk Kyogre and SpDef Sleep Talk Ho-Oh are also good checks.
    This replay (watch turns 1-10), however, is almost painful to watch as I get lucky and beat his Sleep Talk Ho-Oh and Scarf Genesect.

    -Venusaur sucks. It sucks against rain, it can't take priority, it loses to Rayquazza because of Air Lock. Don't use it.

    -Smeargle was never an issue because I had Sleep Talk Gene + Lum Groudon. It was less of an issue than usual because I was so prepared for Sleep. I only saw like three though, so not sure.

    -Although I never saw a Thundurus used properly, I think it could be very good. Sabelye is also decent for Taunting Darkrai.

    -Run Taunt on your Mewtwo. It gives you a shot at breaking the Sub/Void cycle.

    -Rayquazzaand Ekiller are surprisingly good Darkrai checks, since they can spam Extremespeed. Darkrai will be forced to spam Dark Void and you will eventually get a one turn sleep.

    Honestly, Darkrai is very good, but it always was. Darkrai murders stall, but it always has. I do not think this metagame is more centralized than Ubers already was. I have fun playing around Darkrai, and most of the matches against the players at the top of the ladder were not centralized around luck and were just as skillful as any Ubers match I've ever played. Smeargle is a bitch but it always has been and i still hate SmashPass with a passion as I always have.

    On the other hand, I don't like this metagame quite as much. I don't like how Darkrai introduces 50-50 predictions more than any other Pokémon. And I especially don't like how it makes stall basically need a Genesect to not get steamrolled. So I'm not sure. I'm going to read the arguments of others and make a decision.
  5. Melee Mewtwo

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    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest-18966273

    I thoroughly enjoyed this game and thought I would share it. Noctowl was a pain but just the threat of sleep forced easy to abuse switches and could punish the slightest misprediction. It may not have seen much actual play but, trust me, the effect it had in the psychological war helped TONS.

    Furai edit: WARNING: 187 TURNS AAAAAAAAAAAAA

    Edit:
    you can stop once Jynx is left alone against SpDefOgre. It's just PP stall at that point.
  6. Haruno

    Haruno

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    I'm curious on why people say scarfers "check" darkrai. If darkrai is behind a sub, he is free to just spam substitute until said mon wakes up, and being choice locked into sleep talk is just begging to get setup on. Also Lum berry mons still lack the ability to beat darkrai behind a sub since in most cases they're outsped bar mewtwo/skymin/deo-s and those three prefer their normal items.
  7. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    [​IMG]IN LUM BERRY WE TRUST[​IMG]
  8. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Small fix. Couldn't resist sorry.

    Anyways I can see Ho-oh (to deal with Breloom without Stone Edge), RestTalk Kyogre and Sleep Talk Scarf Kyu-B performing amazingly well in this metagame.
    Lum Berry sweepers like Rayquaza and Extremekiller Arceus shouldn't have many issues setting up.
    Safeguard (I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet) becomes an incredibly useful move to have and many ubers have access to it.
  9. superstar

    superstar

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    Well, ideally you switch in on a Dark Void and force the dammed thing out. However, this leads to 50-50 predictions like I said.

    You're assuming you let Darkrai get a sub, which won't happen with proper offensive pressure. Darkrai is making many slow mons such as Ghost Arceus and Ho-Oh close to liabilities.

    Also, Arceus-Normal, Rayquazza, Mammoswine, and Scizor can pressure Darkrai with priority. Scizor in particular doesnt even have to carry Lum, it can just spam Bullet Punch since Dark Pulse does a pittance.

    Substitute mons such as Latios are also quite good since they can Sub up as the sleeper comes in.

    Based on Melee Mewtwo's replays, Darkrai seems to only be scratching the surface of what Sleep Clause will bring. I don't want to see the metagame revolve around sleep. Leaning towards retaining the clause
  10. RotomPoison

    RotomPoison

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  11. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
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    Played a few matches, so far Darkrai and Smeargle haven't been giving me *too* many problems, thanks to a combination of Lum Berries and ExtremeSpeed. Salac Sub Darkrai is quite annoying if you lack priority though. Sleep Talk CB Ho-Oh is pretty neat, but it's a bit problematic that Darkrai can kind of Sub down on it with no real repercussions, since your only hope to stop it really is to suicide with Brave Bird just as you break a Sub. I've considered switching Earthquake with Whirlwind for this reason.

    I'm interested if people are taking more drastic countermeasures such as experimenting with Guts + Flame Orb Pokemon or Poison Heal Pokemon. I personally haven't felt a need to make such drastic changes, but I haven't played a ton of matches with Sleep Clause removed yet. I'm also curious as to how stall is faring with Darkrai every-fucking-where.
  12. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Stall is so fucked in a no sleep clause meta but I'll get more into that later.
  13. superstar

    superstar

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    There can be no stall without Sleep Clause. You only win games against Darkrai and co by relying on heavy offensive pressure.

    Also, anyone other than me checked out Primape yet? It's actually quite good, able to outspeed everything up to +1 Jolly Rayquazza and revenge kill with a set of U-turn/Close Combat/Punishment/Ice Punch. Darkrai and Smeargle can't even touch it.
  14. Asbestospoison

    Asbestospoison

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    I've been using Scarf Primape, only with Low Kick instead of CC, and Stone edge instead of Ice Punch.
  15. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Manaphy seems like a great anti-meta pokemon right now. Nothing screams "fuck you sleep" like Hydration.

    Since RestTalk Kyogre seems to be the standard in a metagame without sleep clause, and it's often a mono-attacker with only Scald, Amoonguss is an excellent pokemon to use as well.
    It can come in against Kyogre, Clear Smog it if it's running CM, Giga Drain it repeatedly to keep itself healthy and use Spore on the predicted switch-in (usually Genesect, Ferrothorn or Forretress).

    A novelty though hilarious option if you really want to humiliate RestTalk Kyogre (as well as Giratina) is Worry Seed.

    As a bonus, thanks to Regenerator Ammonguss doesn't really care about a burn from Scald/WOW. In fact, it's helpful because it makes it immune to sleep, which is obviously more dangerous in this meta.
  16. Sweep

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    Just got reqs (and #1 spot on the ladder, for now) with a fairly weak team featuring Band Kabutops and Lum Berry Dialga, both of which were dominant in this meta. Honestly, sleep clause wasn't THAT broken....I didn't need to resort to using gimmicky mons like Primeape, and I only used one sleep talker and one Lum Berry mon. This isn't Moody Clause we are talking about here; multi-turn sleep isn't close to as luck-based. I also didn't notice any difference in the "fun" factor. The problem I have with it is how centralizing it is...teams will look significantly different without Sleep Clause than they did with it. Not sure which way I'm going yet, but I'll make a sleep-based team myself and see how it goes.

    Edit: Wait, what about Stall though? I feel that Stall is critical to a balanced metagame (which Ubers currently is) and Darkrai can wreck stall teams even with Sleep Clause in effect. If Sleep Clause is removed, Stall will become very rare if not disappear altogether. I'll try a stall team on the ladder and if Darkrai ruins it, I will definitely vote to retain Sleep Clause.
  17. levenl00s

    levenl00s

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    Reqs (open)
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    When I started out playing the Suspect Ladder, sleep seemed very broken to me with an awful abuser in Darkrai. While getting the reqs, I found that Darkrai was an immense threat, but one that could be prepared for. There are very niche counters as Heracross and Primeape and 3 move Genesect sets with U-turn/Iron Head/SleepTalk began to see the light. What checked Darkrai for me was Lum Ekiller and Scarf Terrakion. I think that during this suspect test some other counters/checks will be encountered and that is what I like about this suspect test. It forces you to be creative and to find the Darkrai checks that suit your team. I would call it an exercise in teambuilding.

    It seems to me that although Darkrai is very luck-reliant (uhh hello Game Freak, stop making 80% acc moves plz), it requires a lot of skill to use correctly with all the predictions you have to make, but even more when playing against it. When you see a Darkrai on the other team, you must always ask yourself at any point in battle: "Can I at this moment send in a revenge killer that gets sleeped by Darkrai the turn after? Can I handle Darkrai afterwards?"

    So, while Sleep Clause removal would not make it easier for bad players to win (aka it doesnt take the skill/competitiveness out of the game), it is luck-reliant and VERY centralizing (at this moment, maybe at some point in time it will be a thoughtless process to slap a Darkrai counter on your team and call it a day, but I just don't see that happening) and most of all freaking annoying. But not broken IMO. I am still thinking about if it takes variation out of the meta, or if it adds variation. I don't know yet what I am going to vote, I will ladder some more. Good luck getting reqs you all!
  18. oSeasons

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    Just got the reqs! After playing a ton of games, I have came to the conclusion that sleep talk ho-oh is arguably the best check for darkrai. It can easily take multiple dark pulses from darkrai and can repeatedly heal up it's health with its regeneration ability and roost ;P
  19. deidarasenpai

    deidarasenpai

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    Ugh... I can't stand this... needing to run Lum Berry and Sleep Talk on random pokemon is annoying, and people resorting to niche stuff like Primeape just shows that without Sleep Clause, the meta is changing a lot to something that I personally think is less fun
  20. Hack He Must

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    Whew, done. Thoughts so far are kinda positive actually. I have had great pleasure both abusing sleep as well as adapting to fight it myself. Found the metagame very interesting tbh, people are trying many new cool things to combat Darkrai (who is the only user that concerns me since Smeargle wants to pass early anyway). Just ask Shrang about his Tornadus godamnit. Or Kebabe about Sleep Talk Ho-oh. Or the influx of Lum Berry Arceus, which makes a higher level ladder imo, as Lum Berry was already by far the best item on Extremekiller Arceus, even before the test. It's interesting that before testing you could pretty much let a Pokémon "take the sleep" while then countering Darkrai, while now teams are forced to have a Pokémon that can come in, take the sleep and fend of Darkrai sleeping. Teams can also run Lum Berry Arceus+Genesect which was already amazing. Leads to interesting tactics to say the very least.

    The negative points are that I don't know how stall can cope with this. Sleep Talk Ho-oh cannot be relied on without a good way to prevent rocks, and stall teams are sometimes too passive to pressure hazards setters. Specially Defensive Kyogre cannot save stall alone.

    About my vote, I am very unsure at the moment. I am pretty open to arguments from both sides.
  21. dragonpokeZ

    dragonpokeZ

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    Yep, i agree with you. I tried to use it and the rewards were amazing. Seriouslly, it's the BEST check to both Darkrai and Smeargle thanks to Vital Spirit. Sadly, it's utility ends there.
  22. dragonpokeZ

    dragonpokeZ

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    I think that the Sleep Clause should be eliminated of Ubers. Seriouslly, we see that forgetten 'mons such as Primeape raised in usage thanks to its ability. But seriously, is strange to me don't se a Guts SleepTalk Heracross with Megahorn and Close Combat, because it's the best counter that I know to Dark Void darkrai (the standard set). I know it because of my experience using Darkrai in Ubers (it's my favorite 'mon :3).
  23. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    So far, there's been essentially three main points brought against retaining sleep clause that I'll sum up by quoting below.

    In other words, there's niche counter.

    "Just use Lum Berry to kill Darkrai as it DVoids."

    The first one I'm just going to completely throw out as it is based on a fall premise. These have never been criteria for banning in any tier ever and are just a misinterpretation of previous Ubers suspects. The only criteria that has been set in stone so far are the ones presented here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66515 Of course, this list isn't perfect so if you can present and defend arguments of criteria in addition to these then they are legitimate. (although, every legitimate reason pretty much falls into one of the charateristics) Btw, "Overcentralization" isn't one of them but I'm not going to cover that now. My point with this is to present what we are considering when deciding a suspects placement.

    Okay, now for why I think Sleep clause should be retained. Although I would love to talk about how broken Butterfree's Sleep Shuffling strategy is (TBH, Smeargle does it better but Flutterby is cooler), I'm going to focus primarily on Darkrai as it was the only sleep abuser that was a legitimate threat in normal Ubers so it is the most consistent as it doesn't rely entirely on Sleep to function. If I were to go into a tourny without Sleep Clause, I'd feel a lot safer working around a Darkrai than anything else since it would be the least reliant on team match-up.

    Let's take a quick look at Darkrai in normal Ubers for a second. Darkrai has an excellent speed stat that is difficult to outrun without the use of a Choice Scarf. It has a monster Special Attack stat with a good STAB in Dark Pulse and near perfect coverage with FBlast. (the things that resist Dark/Fight don't see play in ubers) It also has the rare Nasty Plot which allows it to pump up that raw power to wall breaking levels. I'm only stating the obvious here to make the point that, regardless of its access to Dark Void, Darkrai is a viable Pokemon in Ubers. So what does Dark Void bring it? Well, for one thing it eases setup which separates Darkrai from other fragile setup sweepers (like Kabutops) in that it isn't reliant on prediction, team support or profiting from a limited pool of Pokemon to find that free turn. Secondly, it allows Darkrai to instantly eliminate a threat thanks to the harsh sleep mechanics in Gen 5 which can be useful to function as an anti-lead or to pave the way for a teammates sweep. Lastly, Dark Void allows Darkrai to bypass its own checks/counters. This is the point I'm going to focus on the most although keep in mind the other two as they are important as well. The key bit I want you to take away from this is that there are no true counters to Darkrai in a sleep clauseless metagame and even checks struggle to function beyond a one time stop.

    So what about Lum Berry, Sleep Talk, etc? These are tried and true sets that have foiled many a Darkrai sweeps on the ladder.

    This is where I want to bring up the point of the ladder being trash. A Darkrai that falls to these very temporary checks is a Darkrai that is in the hands of a poor player and/or used on a weak team. (ignoring instances of hax/team matchup) Again, the ability to bypass its own checks/counters without limits makes Darkrai the strongest win condition in nearly every situation (and in cases where it isn't keep in mind my second point). Just as leading or trying to KO an otherwise beatable healthy Eggy(Lax/Lapras/etc) with your Tauros in RBY is a poor playing, trying to sweep a team with Darkrai without scouting for and/or weakning potential Lum Berry/Sleep Talk/etc. sets is poor play and a horrible waste of a win condition. Darkrai has the gift of great speed and to power to immediately pose a threat to many Pokemon that forcing a switch to these temporary checks/counters is an easy task. There is little need to be greedy and recklessly refuse to switch in a blind attempt to fling Dark Voids at every member of the opposing team. Basically, a smart Darkrai should be using hit and run tactics early/mid-game so that it has no difficulties in cleaning late game.

    For example, a team with Lum Ekiller, RestTalk ScarfSect and SpdefOgre has multiple checks/counters to Darkrai. However, none of these enjoy directly switching into Darkrai as a sleep ruins Lum Berrys/Rests and Dark Pulse + Nightmare (previous sleep for Ogre/Sect) + Hazards will quickly wear down these checks/counters. This forces the player to either throw a team member to bring these sets in safely or attempt risky prediction that is never free even when performed perfectly. (except for sleep on already sleeping mons) This places a lot of pressure on the other player to deal with Darkrai while the user of Darkrai has fairly easy calls to make when given the opportunity. On top of this, none of these threats are strong enough to completely sweep competent teams (at least on the level of Darkrai) which means that even once brought in they fail to apply the same level of pressure they just fought/sacrificed to deal with.

    So then the trick is to deny Darkrai free turns with (nearly) every member of the team? This is easier said than done as 125 base speed goes a long way and he isn't THAT fragile (252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 152-179 (53.9 - 63.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) It also drastically reduces flexibility in team building which makes it much easier for the other 5 members of Darkrai's team to prepare for its checks/counters.

    Lastly, there are those Pokemon that are serve as much more sturdy switch-ins (as far as sleep is concerned) to Darkrai like Manaphy or Heracross. First of all, almost all (actually, I think all of them) are otherwise niche and ineffective sets and their existence says little about the fact that unlimited sleep is broken. Secondly, these Pokemon are far from impenetrable as Darkrai's Nasty Plot and their limited bulk opens the door for Darkrai to muscle past these as well. Finally and most importantly, the general mediocrity of these sets further limits teambuilding and makes it very easy for the Darkrai user to exploit as free switch-ins to other threats (whether direct or double). As shown in my earlier replay, the opposing Noctowl and my lack of hazards was still insufficient as it gave Terrakion and others multiple opportunities to switch in and wear down the opposing team. This forced my opponent to take gambles to prevent this exploitation which were brutally punished by timely Dark Voids.

    So what does all this say? The lack of sleep clause hurts the metagame when considering the characteristics of a desirable metagame (which were linked earlier in this post). Variety in Ubers is hurt as threats like Darkrai heavily encourage the use of specific threats and massive offensive pressure to deny it free turns. (thus destroying a playstyle like Stall or even defensive balance) Balance itself is a characteristic that is violated as Darkrai (amongst other sleep abusers) poses a pressure on the opposing player that drastically outweighs what any other Pokemon can do (please read the post before saying Ekiller/Ogre). Skilled play, another characteristic, is less present as it requires very little to thought to spam DVoid/Dpulse on switches (as well as scouted sets). Lol, luck, lol.
  24. ZoroarkForever

    ZoroarkForever

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    Melee Mewtwo, I completely agree that the lack of a sleep clause has completely centralized the metagame around Darkrai. Darkrai is insanely hard to counter and I've degenerated to using Adamant Lum Berry Techniloom to KO it with Mach Punch. Even if you are packing the appropriate checks and counters to Darkrai, he can still defeat you with a bit of luck or previous setup. Darkrai also eliminates the prospect of stall completely in Ubers. His teammates can be made to check certain pokemon Darkrai can't handle, causing teams to fall simply because they did not run a certain counter. A lot of the matches I've played where both player's Darkrai counters are weakened and they usually end in the favor of who wins the speed tie or who has the sub up first.

    I truly feel the lack of Sleep Clause is unhealthy for Ubers.
  25. deidarasenpai

    deidarasenpai

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    Apr 29, 2013
    Messages:
    63
    I think that this is more of an argument to retain Sleep Clause. Resorting to "forgotten Pokemon" in Ubers doesn't mean that the Ubers metagame becomes more diverse; on the contrary, it means that Darkrai + unlimited Sleep is so powerful that we need to dig into really low tiers to find things that can beat it. Resorting to very low-tier Pokemon doesn't particularly make the metagame more "fun" (although this is a very subjective term) and. Primeape, Noctowl, etc. just don't function all that well in the Ubers metagame. This isn't to say that they can't be used, obviously skilled players can use them to great effect, but their general viability is just rather low and needing to pull them out as a niche check / counter to Darkrai just seems unnecessary / unhealthy even. Against teams without Darkrai / Smeargle, I feel that these niche Pokemon will be completely outclassed or generally dead weight, especially against skilled opponents.

    Lastly, a small argument suggesting that removing Sleep Clause increases the amount of luck in matches can be found through Sleep Talk. Although Sleep Talk can be highly beneficial, needing to run multiple Sleep Talk users is risky in that they have a decent chance to be completely useless each turn, and they need to rely on luck multiple times for Sleep Talk to select the correct move. Also just a personal preference; putting multiple opposing Pokemon to sleep seems useful, but it just doesn't make the Ubers realm very appealing, as having multiple team members asleep is frustrating as hell. Basically sacking one is bad enough normally, but now multiple ones and needing to go out of my way to ensure that multiple ones don't falls asleep sucks.

    When school officially ends, I'm going to ladder my butt off and hopefully attain reqs, and if I get the chance, I'll most likely vote to retain Sleep Clause.

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