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np: BW Ubers Suspect Round 4 - When You Sleep

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by bojangles, May 15, 2013.

  1. Squidsauce

    Squidsauce

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    Creating a bad metagame doesn't make a player lose more often. If we suddenly dropped mewtwo into OU it wouldn't make a good player suddenly lose every match, cause every player has access to mewtwo and a good player presumably can attack the metagame in a smarter way.

    That being said, mewtwo should definitely be banned, just as sleep clause shouldn't be removed. If you're saying sleep clause should stay because you haven't lost a game yet, I'd reconsider how you suspect things. Also consider that many players (myself included) don't know sleep clause is removed, either because they don't go on the forums or don't know what sleep clause is. I'd say suspects should be evaluated on terms of how they affect the metagame, not on your ability to get passed the suspect.
  2. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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    Quoted for excellence.
  3. imabanana

    imabanana

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    I guess I will share my experience. I decided to use a Liepard Assist team.
    It focuses on

    Liepard
    ability: Prankster
    nature: timid
    item: Leftovers

    moves
    -assist
    -substitute
    -nasty plot
    -dark pulse

    evs
    -252 spa
    -252 hp
    -6 def

    and the rest of my team only knows either spore or an attacks assist can't copy so assist always uses spore. So my team works by Liepard spamming assisted spore and substitute until it can get enough nasty plots to sweep with dark pulse. I got pretty successful.

    here are a couple of my games:

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest-19197460

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest-19342150

    I had a lot of fun with this team but I can understand why people believe that stuff like this should not be allowed.
  4. Scarface

    Scarface

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    That was def fun to watch, but I feel the pain of those dudes lol
  5. Focus

    Focus I'm waiting you...

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    There is something specific that I want to address. The biggest difference in philosophy between the Uber and OU metagames is this:
    The Mewtwo comparison is therefore invalid because the ideal OU metagame is decentralized, and adding Mewtwo to the mix would probably OU more centraized, i.e. worse. If there is a new and powerful threat added to the Uber metagame that forces you to have a certain Pokemon and five dedicated checks to it, then that is no intrinsic reason to balance the metagame. If Sleep Clause happens to even out the Uber usage stats, then great. However this shouldn't be its primary purpose.

    kinda ranty (open)
    High-level competitive play of any game should ideally reward skill above all else. (That is not to say that there should be no element of luck, just that luck shoudn't be the dominant factor.) Right now, you are right in saying there are a lot of players on the ladder that aren't even aware the suspect test is going on. This also is no reason not to change the metagame around. If that were true, then nothing would ever get banned or unbanned for fear of disrupting the existing metagame. The metagame already changes whenever something new gets released, and I see no reason that a big metagame shift caused by Smogon would be necessarily a bad thing, especially if the new metagame provides interesting battles between highly skilled players.

    Ladder ranking is not determined only by skill, and being skilled does not necessarily make a you a good voter, I think we can agree. All that it means for good players to be dominating the ladder even more than usual right now is that they were able to react quicker to the new metagame and exploit that. The suspect testing process is meant to weed out the countless players that refuse to admit that Charizard isn't a good Pokemon to use, and it is hard to have a high rating with low deviation if you do not understand the metagame well.

    Ubers is already unforgiving. Before if you don't have a strategy against Genesect, Kyogre, Terrakion, or Ghost Arceus, you were pretty much screwed. Good players tend do be better at teambuilding and decision-making than bad players, so naturally they win most of their games. If this metagame shift caused by suspect testing is permanent, then yes we can expect good players to remain good and bad players to remain bad. If a few players always win tournaments and top the ladder, all that indicates is that they are fantastic players who prepare for the metagame well. This is not a bad thing; players should want to improve themselves and be rewarded for it. If getting rid of Sleep Clause will not make the game significantly based less on player skill, I don't see what the problem is.

    I am finding less and less reason to keep Sleep Clause around. For the record, I dislike how Sleep Clause is implemented to not be replicable on real game cartridges, but that debate happened already in Policy Review. The new metagame doesn't seem to be worse than the old one. Sun and rain are still both viable, hyper offense and balance both are too. Full stall wasn't great in the last meta either. The things most people are complaining about just seem to be the result of them not preparing for Darkrai well enough. It has true counters and many viable checks, unlike with Moody Pokemon. The 50-50 predictions suck sometimes, but they were around before the suspect test. I am having trouble seeing why objectively Sleep Clause is necessary for a good Ubers metagame.
  6. Haruno

    Haruno

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    What are your thoughts on butterfree vs veno?

    Butterfree has access to whirlwind and compoundeyes which gives it an insanely accurate sleep powder (98% accuracy) and it also gets the ability to phaze.

    Venomoth however is on a higher speed tier (base 90 as opposed to butterfree's base 70). It also has Wonder Skin which is the opposite of butterfree's compound eyes and makes all non attacking moves directed at veno become 50% accurate before applying evade/accuracy boosts. It also gets baton pass so it pass quiver dances as opposed to butterfree's whirlwind.

    So I'm wondering what are people's thoughts on veno? The fact that it is the only QD passer in game bar smeargle gives it an effective niche in itself in the current metagame.
  7. knowmenot

    knowmenot

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    I've used it with success, and I'm not even that good of a player (I average around 1600). But I haven't used butterfree so I'm not sure how venomoth compares to it. It's nice that Wonder Skin doesn't only pertain to sleep but any status type move.
  8. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    got reqs yay (open)
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    The lack of Sleep Clause definitely annoyed the crap out of me, but I still had fun (in the matches without a Darkrai). I used Sand Offense to get reqs and it is definitely one of the most powerful team styles at the moment. Excadrill is straight up killer in this metagame - the lack of Ghosts at the moment means it usually can't be stopped from spinning, it tears most of the predominating cores to smithereens, and it checks Darkrai/EKiller in sand. Speaking of Ghosts, I barely see them anymore. I saw a few Arceus-Ghost (who is still good but definitely not great in this metagame) and like one Giratina-O, but that was about it. Latias usage also seems to have dived as well with Darkrai/Genesect being everywhere (and Genesect is everywhere), making Fighting-types such as Arceus-Fighting and Terrakion really quite valuable.

    I admittedly didn't carry many Darkrai checks (Lum TTar and Scarf Gene were the only true answers I had), which was both good and bad. For one, it gave me an edge against a lot of teams. As Problems pointed out, many people overprepared for sleep which left their team wide open to being smashed by more traditional standards such as Latias or even EKiller. On the other hand, I often got frustrated trying to fight (i.e. get lucky) against someone who actually knew how to use Darkrai effectively, and it definitely screwed me over several times. I probably didn't get screwed as much as I should have because I was rocking heavy offense for most of my ladder spree and therefore did not allow Darkrai as much room to go to town, but when I was using slower teams I definitely felt the pain much harder.

    Speaking of Darkrai, the best set is definitely Void/Sub/DPulse/FBlast @ Leftovers. NP is really unneeded imo - not when you can just put your counter to sleep. Pair Darkrai with hazards and you'll wear down things quickly enough with Bad Dreams + hazards + 135 SAtk Dark/Fight coverage attacks. Focus Blast also does a lot of damage to predicted Gene switches and kills Terrakion, which is nice. Running two attacks also allows you to harass your foe's Sleep Talkers faster and pressure them more, making it even harder for them to survive to try and phaze Darkrai against the constant onslaught of crap it's throwing at you.

    Ultimately, my laddering experience showed me that Sleep Clause needs to stay. I explained in a previous post how it adds unnecessary luck to a game that should be predominantly decided by skill, and it ultimately forces you to run offense to minimize the impact of this luck as balanced/stall teams are much more vulnerable to getting screwed over. Sleep Talk is not a counter to sleep - it's an unreliable check at best, and a one-way ticket to getting swept when it fails. And it is going to fail a lot.
  9. Ezio

    Ezio .
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    Oh what you were that shadow guy watching my matches kewl... I .sexx btw
  10. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    Here are my thoughts on Darkrai without the sleep clause. I shall refer to the Ubers Viability Ranking Thread's tiers for the sake of some of my arguments, so look there if you are unsure of what ranking I am referring to.

    Without sleep clause, Darkrai immediately becomes an S-rank threat, comparable to Extremekiller Arceus, Arceus-Ghost and Kyogre. It can sweep a significant proportion of the metagame with little support and is just as much of an overcentralizing force as those three, as every team needs to have a way to deal with it to succeed competitively. As others ahave pointed out, overcentralization is not really a concern for Ubers (especially as there are diverse ways to deal with Darkrai; it would not force everyone to run a certain Pokemon or anything of the sort). Thus, what I have mentioned so far does not inherently justify retaining Sleep Clause.

    However, let us compare ways of dealing with Darkrai and ways of dealing with the other three major threats mentioned above. In order to find a truly solid counter to Kyogre, Extremekiller or Arceus-Ghost, one needn't look beyond B-rank Pokemon. Latias can deal with most, if not all Kyogre single-handedly, Skarmory and Terrakion handle Extremekiller, and Darkrai and Chansey take care of Arceus-Ghost. More importantly, however, all of these Pokemon can effectively perform roles beyond countering these Pokemon and are generally viable in Ubers.

    Conversely, Darkrai simply has no solid counter among the Pokemon that are generally capable in the tier. That is not to say that it cannot be dealt with, but there is simply no Pokemon that single-handedly, reliably counters Darkrai, without resorting to Pokemon with Insomnia/Vital Spirit/etc, which are terrible Pokemon for anything else (and essentially put your team at a disadvantage against any team without sleep-inducers). Hydration requires rain, and none of its users are great, not even Manaphy. Prankster Pokemon, Scarfs, Mewtwo, etc don't want to switch into Darkrai. Sleep Talk is not reliable, and not too many Pokemon are happy to run the move. Lum Berry is only useful once (and only if no other Pokemon tries to status it) and is usually not the preferred item for a Pokemon. For all the reasons stated above, I argue that there is no good counter for Darkrai, the way that such exist for the other top threats.

    In addition, as many others have mentioned, there are a lot of luck factors involved in the metagame as it is right now. There is a general consensus, with which I agree, that some degree of luck is necessary for an enjoyable metagame. However, sleep directly and indirectly brings in many luck factors that in no way make the metagame more enjoyable. Since no one really wants to run the terrible Pokemon that reliably counter Darkrai, and Hydration Pokemon aren't great either, most players are forced to run Sleep Talk to have Pokemon to switch into Darkrai (unless they want to run lots of random lum berries, which only work once and generally make that Pokemon less effective at its actual role). Sleep Talk is a gamble in itself. Moreover, as the number of turns a Pokemon sleeps is variable, untimely awakenings introduce another luck factor. Dark Void's 80% accuracy always existed, but is now much more significant, and can also work against the receiving player, as a choice Pokemon locking itself into sleep talk is set up fodder if Dark Void misses. The nature of sleep talk and sleep also introduces a lot of 50:50 predictions, which aren't great.

    So, although I have done my best to be open-minded to the idea of a metagame without Sleep Clause and have considered the arguments of the few that have defended it, I will vote against it, for the above reasons. I feel that there is currently no good, reliable way to deal with Darkrai without weakening your team, and the best options (as in the ones that are least detrimental to your team when it is facing something other than Darkrai or another sleep inducer) to handle it involve too much luck for an enjoyable metagame.
  11. Aqualouis

    Aqualouis ^ according to Reymedy, he drew a Groudon
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  12. PROBLEMS

    PROBLEMS

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    Alright I met requirements on: Power Glove

    [youtube]y_z9W_N5Drg[/youtube]

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    I was originally 40-4 and decided just to speed the process up by insta forfeiting and winning a few more as PS is waay too slow for my liking.

    I made the reqs using a sand team which was pretty much built to deal with the threats whilst still being able to deal with standard teams etc, I've already made a long ass post about my opinions I'll be sure to vote keep this shit banned.
  13. puregenius

    puregenius

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    Had some time lately so I decided to ladder a bit
    I've actually found this metagame to be quite enjoyable

    The very first thing you notice is the reduction of ghost types
    Darkrai limits the effectiveness of all of them
    Less ghost types = easier to spin, which has been a very pleasant change compared to the last meta

    It really isn't that difficult to put sleep talk on your scarfer and maybe some other precautions
    Gene and zek can both spare moves as can terrak
    Magic coat supportceus is also a neat option over the usual support move (psong, twave etc)

    I'm surprised flame charge ho oh isn't used more, it can break the sub as it wakes up with flame charge and then outspeed the next turn and ko

    The worst thing about this metagame are the darkrai v darkrai matchups
    It can be completely definitive in determining the winner and is completely reliant on chance

    I'm 20-0 atm and opposing darkrais have been significant in 2 of those matches (darkrai v darkrai)
    As for matches where darkrai was significant for my victory, there were only 3
    It is really hard to gauge the full effectiveness of the sleep clause as everyone is over preparing :/
  14. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    @Focus: The problem with your quote is that it is taken out of context and is referring to a completely different subject. (Banning Pokemon) Testing clauses is a completely different concept as the justification for the reasoning behind never banning Pokemon is that you can't have an Ubers for Ubers. We can (and have) place clauses on the metagame to ensure it remains as balanced and competitive as possible. (such as the Moody clause which wasn't grandfathered from OU like the others) We must consider the effect the lack of Sleep Clause has on the metagame when coming to a conclusion on whether or not we should ban it. (which is what I've tried to do in my posts as well as many others)

    I think this thread would help a lot concerning this subject.
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3472454
  15. Focus

    Focus I'm waiting you...

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    Yes, that quote was referring specifically to banning Pokemon. It probably wasn't the best idea to quote it anyway in hindsight. Here is more what I was partially basing my argument on, taken from the Categorizing Tiering Bans thread ("Moody" was known as "Inconsistent" at the time):

    The impression that I got so far from the discussions is that making the Ubers metagame balanced is not a primary goal of the clauses. The working philosophy of Ubers (as of these suspect tests) seems to be along the lines of, "Let's not ban any Pokémon, and let's only have clauses that don't keep the metagame from being shitty." Centralization has more or less been accepted as a fact of life in Ubers, especially since Arceus came along. The first measure ever taken to specifically improve the Ubers metagame was the Moody Clause. This wan't because of over-centralization (barely anyone used Moody mons at the time), but because of the amount of luck it introduced into specific games.

    I just want to say really quickly that this series of Ubers "suspect tests" was a brilliant idea. It made us think critically about the role of clauses. It also represents us with a unique opportunity to answer some important philosophical questions. Should Ubers clauses be based on the principle of banning only things that are "uncompetitive" (by whatever definition), or should creating a diverse metagame also be a goal? Is Ubers more defined by its minimalistic bans or by its unique and varied metagame? These threads are full of people attacking the same problem, whether or not a certain clause should be retained, from different perspectives. Hopefully these will be more or less sorted out by the end of the Species Clause test.

    In the meantime, I suppose there's nothing we can really do about it if there is a big enough push to keep the Sleep and Species clauses based mostly on the "balance" argument. Here is the best opportunity we might ever have to build a solid argument for keeping Ubers as "balanced" as is practical. It is interesting reading people's justifications why Sleep Clause is or isn't necessary. I will try keep an open mind until the very end, and I urge everyone else to do so too.

    I'm sorry...but what about that thread is helpful? It's mostly just posts based on rampant speculation about what would be most threatening if X Clause were removed...
  16. Enguarde

    Enguarde Such Misfortune
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    Managed to hit my reqs today, and during my laddering I've been trying a few different teams in attempt to gauge all the aspects of removal of sleep clause. Including using a powerful over prepared team with dual sleep talkers, including sleep talk tornadus (Prankster hurricanes!), and a standard offensive team with a couple of previously Life-orb'd mons carrying the Lum Berry instead, which is also and handy against surprise Thunder Waves and haxy Thunders.

    As has been mentioned before, over preparing for a Darkrai armada usually spells bad news against more standard and stally teams which aren't particularly interested in putting your Pokemon asleep, which can mean a bunch of dead weight/lost potential which can really hurt in terms of losing coverage moves. And naturally, over preparing for sleep really hampers Dakrai, Smeargle and of course Butterfree users :P

    I found overall though that Just carrying a Lum berry mon or two is sufficient for dealing with sleep, since the main abusers are awfully frail and failing to sleep something like an offensive Groudon, Dialga or Arceus usually means they're going to be taken out.

    And after extensive play this seems like the best option by far in dealing with the removal of sleep in a simple fashion, and doesn't leave yourself vulnerable to to other teams.

    Whether or not I actually find the removal of sleep clause to be a broken or not, i'll take some more time to decide. I really don't think its changed anything that much, and since people are willing to adjust their teams slightly to accommodate for it, certainly doesn't make me think that Sleep is a blaringly broken tactic to me. Also something else worthwhile to comment on is that Dark Void has now fallen into the same league as Stone Edge in terms of accuracy, due to it being used more than once or twice a match now!

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  17. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    I linked that thread not for the theorymon but the general idea shown by the approach these posters had in response to Clauses; the effect they had on the metagame WAS considered. Perhaps a better example though would be OHKO clause which the suspect thread can be found here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3473777&page=2 Now, I know this looks like Luck vs Overcentralization but I specifically linked you to the 2nd page of the thread for a reason. Syrim's posts did not approach OHKO clause as a random chance to screw your opponent over (although that is definitely true) but as a legitimate strategy that can be used by Pokemon like Kyogre and Excadrill to severely punish the free turns they create and bypass their own counters. His post didn't judge OHKO based on the criteria you are sharing (tbh, that thread looks more like a failed discussion than a reference there are points I personally disagree on but the amount of discussion they received in the first place leads me to believe that they aren't really relevant for us now) but on the effect OHKO had on the metagame, particularly in regards to Stall. (Syrim made even more posts than on that page alone which were all excellent and insightful)

    To sum up what I've posted before for general convenience, I believe the lack of Sleep Clause perverts the metagame. There are no such thing as long term checks/counters to sleep as Lum Berry only works once (and therefore can't even switch in unless the holder outspeeds the sleeper) while Sleep Talk is unreliable and removes the possibility to Rest off damage as well increases passive damage in the case of Darkrai's nightmare. (plus, Choice Sleep Talk users may struggle against Substitute sleepers that stall for a wake up) As a result, the best approach to sleep is speeding up the game itself and denying common sweepers (notably Darkrai) the free turns by outspeeding them. This heavily punishes defensive play as they give threats like Darkrai (and even Flutterby) multiple free turns and are handicapped by their goal to extend games to rack up passive damage where they can no longer resist sleep once all of their short term checks are removed. (ignoring a heavy gap between the skill level of both players)

    (I ignored Manaphy/Primeape/etc because these are still poor counters and generally useless Pokemon that already including them on your team is harmful.)
  18. Ezio

    Ezio .
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    No sleep clause:
    -fuks stall
    -luck based (# turns asleep)
    -forces use of subpar mons

    posting these to keep track of them
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  19. Focus

    Focus I'm waiting you...

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    I've been testing a non-Darkrai team with a Kyogre / Giratina-A / Ferrothorn core (just my old main team with 2 moveslot tweaks), and it has been performing better than my Darkrai team that I got reqs with. I've found that Genesect and Kyogre with Sleep Talk are sufficient for dealing with Darkrai, and Lum Arceus is icing on the cake. Teams that were good before this test are still good for the most part. The metagame seems to be stabilizing a bit at this point, and it's clear to me that lack of Sleep Clause does not introduce a big element of luck. From experience, I see no good reason to keep Sleep Clause around.
  20. Namikaze

    Namikaze

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    I agree with Focus and Pocket on this. Even without sleep clause Darkrai becomes a threat dealt with with minor tweaks to a team. Anyone who argues that one shouldn't need dedicated checks to for one mon, please see Arceus. I have seen many other battlers not even bother trying to abuse the lack of sleep clause simply because they prefer their own teams. The game does not become centralized around sleep abuse. It seems to become more stable with more appealing options introduced. One could argue that the same could have been said for moody clause, but moody seriously decreased the competitiveness of a game since that depended on luck. Playing around sleep is not hard to do for anyone who knows what they're doing.

    As for what Hyperbeem pointed out, there's nothing forcing anyone to use Brelooms for spore abuse nor is anyone forced to use Primapes for vital spirit if those are what you're referring to when you say subpar mons. These mons have had always had a niche and increased usage shouldn't be reason to keep sleep clause.
  21. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    The idea that lack of sleep clause makes stall unplayable is insane to say the least.
    Every self-respecting stall team always carries a sleep absorber to deal wih Darkrai, sleep clause or not.

    Now I understand that Giratina, a pokemon that can comfortably absorb sleep but can never hope to beat Darkrai 1 on 1, is no longer the sleep absorber of choice in a metagame without sleep clause, but that doesn't mean viable replacements don't exist.

    RestTalk Kyogre with Roar is the most obvious replacement ant it should be noted that it's a perfectly viable set even in a metagame without sleep clause.
    Funny how many people fail to mention that if Kyogre is forced to run a defensive set to reliably check Darkrai more often, instead of its disgustingly powerful offensive ones, stall greatly benefits from that.

    Another major change that benefits stall teams is Sleep Talk Genesect.
    Not only is it a great Darkrai check in a metagame without sleep clause, but losing one of its coverage moves means that stall teams actually have a chance against it.
    This way Genesect goes from "almost as broken as Arceus" to "a great offensive pokemon that can still be dealt with".

    Finally Manaphy becomes a lot more viable in this metagame thanks to Hydration. Unless it gets unlucky with flinches it can reasonably beat Darkrai unless it's already at +2.

    In short, lack of sleep clause is making the metagame more interesting and while Darkrai is definitely more centralizing now, there are many ways to keep it in check.
  22. Gogeta

    Gogeta

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    I've gotta say, I'm really surprised at how enjoyable this metagame actually is for me. I'm currently sitting at 9 on the ladder, and should make reqs in a couple of days. If anyone is interested in the team I'm using, I'll leave the importable at the bottom of the post.

    The first thing I've noticed is that the huge increase in Darkrai has encouraged the use of either undervalued or brand new sets. Before this test, I never would have thought of using CB Ho-Oh, but its potential as a sleep talker drew me in; and my god it is impressive. I've also seen cool things like an increase in scarf Dialga, Sub Punch Palkia, Heracross, Tyranitar, and more. While I've no doubt that this metagame is heavily centralised, the influx of new sets has really freshened up Ubers for me.

    Secondly is that Darkrai is not as overwhelming as I first expected. I've tried out a handful of teams, some with Darkrai and some without, and he hasn't been exceptional in the big matches at all (of course by that I mean Darkrai easily sweeps your standard fodder with Ash's team, but struggles to do much against competent players). I think we generated so much hype around Darkrai before the test that we overprepared ourselves; Darkrai has been neutered successfully, but this has seen the overall quality of teambuilding decrease.

    I can't comment on the viability of other sleep inducers, as the only other one I've seen so far is Breloom, who is just complete ass, even with Sleep clause removed. It's too slow to abuse Spore and is walled to hell and back by Ho-Oh if it doesn't run SE (which it doesn't have room for), which is never good.

    With all this being said, I really am leaning towards unbanning sleep. Ubers is centralised anyway, and this increase in creativity is a big positive. However, I'm aware that while individual sets may become more innovative, specific playstyles like stall are going to be hit hard by the removal of sleep clause. Furthermore, I'd say that our actual teams for this test are a lot weaker than our normal teams just so we can deal with sleep; this is clearly not desirable at a higher level, as I think we all want not only a fun metagame, but a competitive metagame.

    I'll think more on this when I hit reqs, and then I think I'll have a little bit of fun with the mighty Smeargle (combine evasion clause with sleep clause, muahahahaha).

    The team I'm laddering with right now:
    Show Hide
    Ho-Oh @ Choice Band
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 Atk / 240 HP / 16 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Brave Bird
    - Sacred Fire
    -
    - Sleep Talk

    Groudon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
    Careful Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Roar
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Punch

    Forretress @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 Atk
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Rapid Spin
    - Gyro Ball
    - Spikes
    - Toxic Spikes

    Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - Sleep Talk

    Latios (M) @ Soul Dew
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    - Psyshock
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Grass Knot

    Arceus-Grass @ Meadow Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Spd
    Calm Nature
    - Judgment
    - Fire Blast
    - Recover
    - Toxic
  23. Nova

    Nova Spirit Rush
    is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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    Most of my wins were gotten by either Sub Darkrai or Lum Ekiller. Gonna have to say unbanning Sleep Clause led to basically a death of Stall teams. The only Stall mon that can take on Darkrai is Sleep Talk Kyogre who is a decent check but needs to rely on Sleep Talk rolls.

    Team I used (thank you to Cherub Agent, he gave me his team originally and I tweaked it a little bit):
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    Genesect @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Download
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature
    - U-turn
    - Iron Head
    - Explosion
    - Ice Beam

    Ho-Oh @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Brave Bird
    - Sacred Fire
    - Roost
    - Sleep Talk

    Groudon @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 80 HP / 244 Atk / 184 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Rock Polish
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge

    Darkrai @ Leftovers
    Trait: Bad Dreams
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Substitute
    - Dark Void
    - Nasty Plot
    - Dark Pulse

    Arceus @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Earthquake
    - Shadow Claw

    Dialga @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 184 SAtk / 16 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Roar
    - Draco Meteor
    - Fire Blast
  24. Haunter

    Haunter just outplay the coin flip...
    is an official Team Rateris a Battle Server Administratoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris an Administratoris a Tutor Alumnus
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    Just made the reqs. This suspect round reminded me why sleep clause is so important in a competitive metagame. Ironically, out of 13 losses, 2 were against some lucky dude who spammed minimize\baton pass Smeargle.
    Posting just for identification purposes (open)
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  25. .Robert

    .Robert
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    ^ Agree with this

    merengue (open)
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