Metagame NP: NU (beta): Welcome to the NU Age (Combusken Banned)

[Cased]

I mean the only things that get bp + speed boost in the tier are combusken, ninjask and torchic. Ninjask isnt ban worthy because sr weakness and piss poor bulk. Torchic is torchic. It makes sense to ban combusken because it is the only really threatening poke of the bunch, and we really dont need to take away ninjask's only niche imo. ANd I dont think we would be missing out on alot without offensive combusken anyways, yanma is a good enough attacking speed booster.

Ninjask essentially could do the same thing as Combusken can do. Nobody wants to ban Ninjask, I suggested a Baton Pass x Speed Boost Complex Ban because it could essentially stop all of the passing x Speed Boosts and other stat boosts which is why Combusken is currently being suspected. Combusken ban obviously makes sense if people want to avoid Complex Bans at all costs but Ninjask can do what Combusken does as well, not with the same effectiveness but it does have good effectiveness. It's all about preference of tiering. Both options are fine and have their points

 

[Raseri]

kk going to clarify a few things about this that I should have earlier.

1) The suspect is Combusken. Not Speed Boost. Not Combusken + Speed Boost. Not Speed Boost + Baton Pass. Just Combusken. If we ban it and its still a problem afterwards, we can revisit it later.

 

[Punchshroom]

No one is going to say that Speed Boost + Baton Pass is broken on Ninjask on the same level as Combusken. Ninjask Pass is for the most part incredibly easy to stop, since it sets up on almost jack shit, is vulnerable to priority, has poor offensive potential, has bad typing, and is hopelessly frail. Combusken is....pretty much none of those things; literally the only thing it doesn't have over Ninjask is Speed, but Ninjask's speed is overkill anyway and there's this little thing called Speed Boost, don't know if you've heard of it, that helps to remedy Speed in a pretty significant way.

However, that alone doesn't make Combusken broken as hell. We'll need to see the many ways Combusken can do its job. Bulk Up is already receiving all the attention, since it makes use of Combusken's typing and Eviolited bulk to easily snag boosts. Personally, I welcome any Pokemon that can help put Shiftry in its place (as well as Spiritomb), but when said Pokemon can start setting up on Pokes that can hit it SE (i.e Seismitoad, Sandslash, Pelipper, Uxie), then I can't help but feel that the Pokemon might be a bit too good at its job. Suddenly it becomes a matter of what Combusken can't set up on, rather than what it can. Offensive teams usually don't give Combusken much leeway in terms of setting up, but even then they may have a Pokemon or two (Shiftry, Spiritomb, Pawniard, Cryogonal, Accelgor) that gives Combusken the opportunity it needs, and a good majority of the time the setup bait's teammates cannot stop Combusken at that point. This does not even account for defensive teams, who may find their whole damn team unable to stop Combusken and co. in time, and more often than not enable Combusken to pass more than once.

So as a result, the meta is encouraged to go even more offensive. Even if you don't consider this an unhealthy metagame change, do consider the fact that Combusken can just as easily go the offensive route with Swords Dance. Speed Boost can feasibly be an offensive tool shown by users of higher tiers, and Combusken is no different. Between its strong STABs, Eviolited bulk, and constant increase in Speed, offensive teams can very well find themselves overwhelmed by the Combusken wrecking train, especially when you consider that most offensive teams pack the aforementioned 'Combusken setup-bait'. Combusken can use Protect to block Fake Out and resists Sucker Punch, making it truly a challenge to bring it down with priority as well. Oh yeah, and if Combusken does find itself backed into a corner, it can simply pass its Attack and Speed boosts to a teammate and let them take over. Swords Dance is not even the only way Combusken can go offensive; dual special STABs are a perfectly viable option, since both have well over 100 BP to leave a mark on offensive teams off the bat, and Special Combusken is simply content to pass just Speed. Let's see your Rhydon stop Combusken after it has eaten a Focus Blast, eh? If you guess Combusken's set incorrectly, it is likely to get away with passing again, or simply wreck your team itself.

Combusken has sheer versatility between all of its sets, yet they can consistently accomplish their main role(s): pass Speed, along with other such boosts. Even Gorebyss must be wary about Smashing: the threat of fast Scarfers or Liepard's Encore can make it waste its White Herb, meaning subsequent SmashPasses will have their recipients enter battle with lowered defenses; if Gorebyss does not pack White Herb to begin with, it must worry about damage both for itself and its recipient, which limits its range of setup targets. All Combusken has to do to pass Speed is Protect, which does not pose any risk to Combusken at all.

That said, is one Pokemon being grossly consistent at its job too much for the tier to handle? Possibly, considering the amount of Pokemon that benefit from Combusken's support, and Combusken's potential to threaten defensive and offensive teams alike. Even relatively obscure Pokemon such as Gogoat and Octillery will improve from Combusken's support, much less already great powerhouses such as the usual Kangaskhan, Feraligatr, Xatu, etc...

 

[g]

To clarify, I never indicated that usage is a good way to dictate how broken something is. What I was trying to communicate is that if I spent 40 hours (~200 battles) playing on the NU ladder last month, I'd face ~3 Combusken, and thus its not something my team would have to heavily account for. I wouldn't need a combusken counter to win a good number of games. Now I might play 10 battles and see 3 combusken, which means its a threat which my team has to account for. So to say something like "combusken has been around from the start" isn't completely true.

It is obvious that a threat gets more popularity when there is a suspect test as people will obviously try it (or abuse it sometimes). That is the purpose of the suspect test really (and I think we would see it even more with a suspect ladder).
You are right that now is more popular but at the beginning of the metagame (and before bp clause, it was also research week subject I am pretty sure)) I have seen some Bulk Up Combusken + Calm Mind Mr.Mime + Sweeper teams and they were quite effective I'd say.

edit: I don't really support a complex ban, since unless you can find 2+ instances where the same combo is broken, its not worth it. That being said, while we're on the topic, one of the biggest reasons baton pass is so good is because it can pass to a magic bouncer, who avoids roar and whirlwind. Instead of considering a BP+Speed boost ban (which we aren't, thankfully), a BP + magic bounce ban (on the same team, a la drizzle+Swift Swim) would make more sense, since you could also argue that shell smashing to a magic bounce user is borderline broken - and certainly more viable than ninjask/torchic.

There is really no need to complex ban like this because Combusken is overly effective even while passing to Feraligatr or Kangaskhan and can avoid a lot of (p)hazing moves itself like Clear Smog and Dragon Tail/Circle Throw simply by using substitute (stuff like dragalge and poliwrath need A LOT of investment to break it and Rhydon can't with Max Attack and a lot of teams don't even have phazers) so it is not like Xatu is needed. Also seriously combusken has no niche without baton pass there is no reason to keep it stop with this complex ban thing.

 

[This Is Fearsome]

Can people stop suggesting things that don't actually work?

Counters

- Stat-resetting moves, haze, clear smog etc. E.g. Dragalge, Weezing, Murkrow etc. - Clear Smog is blocked by steel types, Krow works, but is shit otherwise
- Circle throw (and dtail if the opposing team doesn't have a fairy type). Poliwrath and Throh - Ghost types...
- Fast taunts. Archeops - Combusken outspeeds after 2 speed boosts and can therefore still pass +2 speed
- Encore. Liepard et al. - hf switching pard in

Checks

- Dragon Tail. Lickilicky, Dragalge, Steelix. Another option I'd like to see more is Dtail Samurott (forces a pass and surprise dtails the switch-in) but the opportunity cost is pretty high, and once the dtail is known it becomes a mission to kill / keep Samu alive depending on what side you're on. - Slurpuff is immune
- Offensive pressure. Rhydon forces a 50/50. Roar = pass to Xatu, but rock blast / stoneedge is gonna hit Xatu. Rock move = switch to Gatr, but roar mitigates this. However given Combusken's great type synergy with its pairs and >+1 defence from Bulk Up it's not difficult to switch out. - 50/50s are in favor of Combusken user, Rock Blast/Stone Edge can miss and don't even KO boosted Xatu

So in conclusion, you have to run a Clear Smogger/Hazer, Circle Throw user, Taunt Archeops, Dtail user and Rhydon to beat ChickenPass reliably? Sorry if I come off as passive aggresive, but I really don't think most of these things work very well against competent Combusken users.

Maybe I was a tad liberal putting all of that stuff under "counters" as some of it doesn't hardcounter. I'll move some stuff into the checks section. By the way, all of the things listed do "actually work", perhaps with the exception of taunt Archeops. As you can see I wrote a long post and when thinking of fast taunt users it slipped my mind that at +2 busken outspeeds all of them (assuming you run a decent speed invest)

As you said part of the reason why Busken is so damn good is that it can run steels, ghosts etc to get past clear smog and circle throw. Some Busken teams have them, most don't but I guess that's enough to demote them to checks.

However Liepard does actually switch in pretty easily, with fire punch failing to 2hko and flare blitz doing ~70%. It's gotta be wary of sky uppercut but I personally have only seen that once with extensive high ladder play both against and with Combusken pass. But because the fact that busken can run it demotes its counter status I'll drop it down

I'm well aware that Slurpuff is immune to Dtail (that's why it's in the checks section as Puff is much more common on busken teams than steels and ghosts - but don't worry, I'll demote clear smog and circle throw as I said)
I'm also well aware that 50/50s are in favour of Busken, maybe I didn't make that clear sorry

Thanks for the input Aladyyn :)

Montsegur thanks for your input suggesting Rhydon, slipped my mind when I made the post. I will chuck your credit in the post. Also to your point about Poliwrath, I have actually used it to good success, although it gets halted by ghosts (esp tomb which seems to be the most common ghost to go with Busken). I've tried mitigating this issue by running substitute on Poliwrath to ease prediction, but because it needs to come in multiple times per match on Combusken I found that Wrath just gets worn down too fast with it to serves its purpose consistently. Luckily ghosts are fairly uncommon on Busken teams high ladder from my experience in the time I've been running Wrath.

As some people have brought up Busken out-counters its "counters" by switching into a huge range of things (although most busken teams won't have all of them of course) and its checks are just that, checks. Sorry coolking49 I was probably a tad liberal with counters, some of those should have been put under checks.

Good to see that more discussion was generated on meta adaption. I was afraid we'd jump forward without properly addressing it. I resonate with most people's points, currently the meta can't handle combusken, and I agree with the previous posts when I say I see little room for the meta to improve to handle combusken pass without becoming extremely overcentralising

 

[s_aman]

Combusken is broken af. It can set up on large portions of the metagame. Shiftry, seismitoad (defensive), spiritomb, mismagius, babisharp (can't remember its name rn, sorry :-/). However, the main problem is the variety of the threats that it can pass to. Gator, kanga, Xatu, Sawk, shiftry... NU is full of threats who would love a 1.5x boost to their speed. And, it also provides them with Attack and Defense boosts making them even more powerful and allowing them to live a hit or 2. One thing i am using rn is Thunder Wave Liepard. Before you kick me calling a noob, let me explain. Initially, i used it in place of thunder wave but i missed Encore dearly. So, i replaced U-Turn. It is my last ditch check to any setupper. Substitute users are trolled by encore. It is also a good answer to opposing combusken pass teams.

 

[Aleccat]

im sorry aladynn and hyunation but the fact that you are saying this stuff knowing HO is op and needs to be nerfed is so ridiculous i've been saying this since the dawn of nu, "ban feral pls". however this is the chicken suspect thread. so anyway, anyone try haze qwilfish? i have. it reliably counters combusken as long as he isn't passing yet and even if he is it depends on what mon. anyone try the move roar? or whirlwind? i heard they were both great moves. im tired of having everyone who can vote reject opinions like they're nothing when they just lose to combusken they're like "nerf pls ru kthx" then they make a crappy metafag HO team and easily get to reqs and vote to ban something because it threatens their precious pokemon like i've faced many combuskens and beat nearly every one. we had no discussion about what made HO op. chicken isn't even the problem but zeb and ras go around acting like they can suspect things without asking the tier because all the auth in the room were liek "OP NERF PLS KTHX" like just stop..... please. this is not what we need. i don't even use chicken and i can tell you right now haze qwilfish. im really out of it today so i was too lazy to finish my sentences. just stop please kthx ~aleccat

 

[Palpitoad707]

im sorry aladynn and hyunation but the fact that you are saying this stuff knowing HO is op and needs to be nerfed is so ridiculous i've been saying this since the dawn of nu, "ban feral pls". however this is the chicken suspect thread. so anyway, anyone try haze qwilfish? i have. it reliably counters combusken as long as he isn't passing yet and even if he is it depends on what mon. anyone try the move roar? or whirlwind? i heard they were both great moves. im tired of having everyone who can vote reject opinions like they're nothing when they just lose to combusken they're like "nerf pls ru kthx" then they make a crappy metafag HO team and easily get to reqs and vote to ban something because it threatens their precious pokemon like i've faced many combuskens and beat nearly every one. we had no discussion about what made HO op. chicken isn't even the problem but zeb and ras go around acting like they can suspect things without asking the tier because all the auth in the room were liek "OP NERF PLS KTHX" like just stop..... please. this is not what we need. i don't even use chicken and i can tell you right now haze qwilfish. im really out of it today so i was too lazy to finish my sentences. just stop please kthx ~aleccat

Does this mean that everyone should run Haze Qwilfish to deal with Combusken? Or it's other supposed counter, Rhydon? Or a Haze Murkrow? Moves like whirlwind and roar don't work, since Combusken can just pass to Xatu, and now Xatu gets all those boosts, and can avoid Roar and Whirlwind. The fact that Combusken can set up on half of the tier and then pass its boosts to a powerful threat is what makes it broken. You know something is wrong when a fire type uses a Seismitoad as setup fodder. And there are ways around it's normal checks, depending on who you pass too. If something probably knows Circle Throw, pass to a Golurk or other ghost type. Dragon Tail, pass to a Slurpuff or Granbull.

 

[Palpitoad707]

i can't take you seriously when a) you joined in may and also who the hell uses xatu +combusken im sorry just please stop yes you should run haze qwilfish it's and versatile.

I can't take that seriously. Xatu + Combusken is probably the best Pokemon Combusken can pass too. Passing 3 different stat boosts to something with Stored Power, Calm Mind, Reliable recovery, and Magic Bounce is not too good? That's definitely completely false. Xatu, along with Feraligatr and Kanga, are probably the three Pokemon that Combusken passes to the most.

 

[Aleccat]

I can't take that seriously. Xatu + Combusken is probably the best Pokemon Combusken can pass too. Passing 3 different stat boosts to something with Stored Power, Calm Mind, Reliable recovery, and Magic Bounce is not too good? That's definitely completely false. Xatu, along with Feraligatr and Kanga, are probably the three Pokemon that Combusken passes to the most.

i can't take that seriously when bulk up combusken passing is a thing, and when kanga has reliable recovery and is much better. stop pls
edit: throw a stone at xatu its health is down at 75% throw another stone 4 birds are killed and xatu just flops on the floor and dies
do exactly what i do don't listen to ras

 

[Evan.]

im sorry aladynn and hyunation but the fact that you are saying this stuff knowing HO is op and needs to be nerfed is so ridiculous i've been saying this since the dawn of nu, "ban feral pls". however this is the chicken suspect thread. so anyway, anyone try haze qwilfish? i have. it reliably counters combusken as long as he isn't passing yet and even if he is it depends on what mon. anyone try the move roar? or whirlwind? i heard they were both great moves. im tired of having everyone who can vote reject opinions like they're nothing when they just lose to combusken they're like "nerf pls ru kthx" then they make a crappy metafag HO team and easily get to reqs and vote to ban something because it threatens their precious pokemon like i've faced many combuskens and beat nearly every one. we had no discussion about what made HO op. chicken isn't even the problem but zeb and ras go around acting like they can suspect things without asking the tier because all the auth in the room were liek "OP NERF PLS KTHX" like just stop..... please. this is not what we need. i don't even use chicken and i can tell you right now haze qwilfish. im really out of it today so i was too lazy to finish my sentences. just stop please kthx ~aleccat

rasedit: This is a great example of exactly what you should do in this thread :)

Ok so let's address this post 1 point at a time:

1. Haze Qwilfish is a pretty hard stop to Combusken I must admit, but simply because Combusken has 1 hard counter (Not to mention that Qwilfish is straight up beaten by Xatu, one of the most common passes for Combusken) doesn't mean that it shouldn't be banned. You seem to be suggesting that every team needs to run a Haze mon, which severely limits team-building as there are very few haze mons in the tier that beat Combusken outright. (And don't say roar or whirlwind because Xatu beats that too)

2. "then they make a crappy metafag HO team and easily get to reqs and vote to ban something because it threatens their precious pokemon". In NU, the bans are discussed and decided on by the NU council, which consists of the people who are the most knowledgable about the tier and how it works. The bans aren't decided based on a community vote by getting a certain COIL.

3. "i've faced many combuskens and beat nearly every one." Well Combusken-pass isn't just an automatic win for everyone. You have to know what you're doing and make correct plays. I have a good feeling that you haven't seen how some of the top-tier players in NU play Combusken-Pass. Maybe after going face to face with them your opinion may be swayed.

4. "zeb and ras go around acting like they can suspect things without asking the tier because all the auth in the room were liek OP NERF PLS KTHX." Do you honestly think that zeb and ras just went, "I think this is broken, let's suspect it". Watch some of the tournaments in the NU room, watch some of the NUPL replays. These are the best players in the tier all using Combusken to it's full broken potential where the whole tier can see. Do you think that we haven't discussed it endlessly in the NU room since the suspect was announced, and practically everyone agrees with the suspect. Zeb and Ras obviously know what they're talking about as they play/have been playing the tier longer than 95% of all of us and I trust them to make a decision on a suspect.

5. "just stop please kthx" no u.

 

[jbtc10]

The bandwagoning is strong in these ones. What's weird is that people are acting like Combusken is a new mon introduced this gen which is taking the metagame by storm like Aegislash or something, when in actual fact it's been running these exact same sets for eons and nobody gave a damn until now. It's probably partially due to the fact that BP has been in the limelight a lot more this gen, and we also got quite a lot of new toys in NU like Xatu which allows it to play somewhat similarly to Scolipede + Espeon in OU (which isn't doing much right now). So are those changes really enough to make Combusken overpowered now, or are people just overreacting as they often do?

 

[Evan.]

The bandwagoning is strong in these ones. What's weird is that people are acting like Combusken is a new mon introduced this gen which is taking the metagame by storm like Aegislash or something, when in actual fact it's been running these exact same sets for eons and nobody gave a damn until now. It's probably partially due to the fact that BP has been in the limelight a lot more this gen, and we also got quite a lot of new toys in NU like Xatu which allows it to play somewhat similarly to Scolipede + Espeon in OU (which isn't doing much right now). So are those changes really enough to make Combusken overpowered now, or are people just overreacting as they often do?

Actually Speed Boost + Baton Pass only became legal on Combusken this gen, which is why nobody ever had a problem with it before.

 

[atomicllamas]

"chicken isn't even the problem but zeb and ras go around acting like they can suspect things without asking the tier"

ya wtf, its not like Raseri is the tier leader!>!!?!?!?

 

[Aleccat]

"chicken isn't even the problem but zeb and ras go around acting like they can suspect things without asking the tier"

ya wtf, its not like Raseri is the tier leader!>!!?!?!?

yea they like abuse their powers like its not okay like has anyone but me tried hardcountering combusken
like srsly haze qwilfish new meta or do like haze dusclops

 

[ck49]

yea they like abuse their powers like its not okay like has anyone but me tried hardcountering combusken
like srsly haze qwilfish new meta or do like haze dusclops

Haze Dusclops has no utility on a team other than stopping combusken. Haze qwilfish might, but as far as hard counters go, most of them don't have much utility against other teams. If you have to run something to stop combusken which is useless in the other 80% of your battles, then combusken is ban-worthy.

 

[This Is Fearsome]

yea they like abuse their powers like its not okay like has anyone but me tried hardcountering combusken
like srsly haze qwilfish new meta or do like haze dusclops

I tried to think of a better way to respond to this, but couldn't come up with one so:

....
....

 

[Orphic]

yea they like abuse their powers like its not okay like has anyone but me tried hardcountering combusken
like srsly haze qwilfish new meta or do like haze dusclops

"Without asking the tier" isnt this kinda like asking the tier by making us discuss it? Plus Raseri knew there was a general consensus and atmosphere in the community that combusken was OP and ruining our metagame so as the great tier leader he is, he brought this up for suspect.

 

[Davon]

I got 99 problems but a chicken ain't one

Dragalge @ Leftovers
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse
- Thunderbolt
- Haze

I'm still undecided on how I feel about combusken. I honestly don't find it over centralizing, and I think it's actually healthy for the meta to an extent. Without combusken, we'll have 1 less switch in to shiftry (making our safe switch ins to it togetic and pawniard???). There are plenty of ways to stop combusken from passing too. Haze is not hard to come by in NU, examples of NU pokes who have haze and can take combusken's attacks include: altaria, dragalge, garbodor, mantine, muk, octillery, omastar, politoed, poliwrath, qwilfish, weezing, and xatu. There's also dragon tail/circle throw which aren't blocked by magic bounce, some users include: dragalge, lickilicky, steelix, poliwrath, throh, and rhydon. I honestly don't think it's that difficult to fit one of these pokes on a team with haze/dtail/circle throw lol. There's a bunch of setup in the tier anyways so it's not like you're running haze just for combusken, it'll be useful against the rest of the tier too.

"But Davon, offensive teams can't afford to run haze/dragon tail/ circle throw!"

I think you can atleast fit haze on an offensive team, but honestly this is where the problem begins. Combusken just needs 1 turn to setup and with +1 defense and speed combusken becomes very difficult to revenge kill. The baton pass recipients are what make combusken really hard to deal with. If you want to use a special wallbreaker to get through their team, av kangaskhan is there. If you want to use a strong choiced attack, combusken protects then goes to the appropriate baton pass recipient to take the hit. Combusken without out a doubt is the best abuser of baton pass + speed boost, whether it's ban worthy or not.

 

[Quite Quiet]

My main issue with everyone suggesting to run Dtail/Circle throw is that nothing is stopping combusken from switching out either protect or its attacking move for substitute. No attacks combusken is still a very strong baton passer, but is entirely dedicated to passing (which most of them are anyway). With a spread of 248 hp / 48 def / 212 spdef careful nature no uninvested dtail/circle throw break combusken's subs, bulk ups or not. ( 252+ Atk Rhydon Dragon Tail vs. 248 HP / 48 Def Eviolite Combusken: 68-80 (21 - 24.7%) ) Out of all the viable mons at the moment that get either of those moves, only poliwrath can guarantee breaking the subs at +0 if it invest max in attack.

Don't pretend combusken can't adapt to the situation at hand and that its current set is the only thing it can use. It is very easy for combusken to adapt to the situation, be that it passes to a specific team mate or that it changes its moves and EV spread to match up better with the opponent. Things like Haze, Dtail and everything else might work for now but if they become common enough combusken can just change things around a little bit and keep being effective (in every case except Haze, but forcing every team to use Haze on a pokemon isn't really a preferable option). It would also mean every team would be forced to run a viable mon and take out a usable move and put haze in, just in case it faces combusken.

 

[Aladyyn]

Sorry but I really have to say something. I see this kind of thinking a lot in the NU room on PS. "I run X so I have no problems with Y, just run X and you'll be fine!" Well, no. If everyone is forced into running Haze Qwilfish and Dragalge, something is obviously wrong. Like VERY OBVIOUSLY.
Also Qwilfish has trouble fitting everything it wants in 1 moveset already, if you have 3 you basically HAVE to run now you only get 1 free slot, severely reducing Qwilfish's potential utility and making it less effective if facing anything other than ChickenPass (because let's face it, Haze is pretty useless otherwise).

So basically the line of thinking some people are showing here is misguided and only a further proof of how much of a problem Combusken is.

 

[ck49]

Sorry but I really have to say something. I see this kind of thinking a lot in the NU room on PS. "I run X so I have no problems with Y, just run X and you'll be fine!" Well, no. If everyone is forced into running Haze Qwilfish and Dragalge, something is obviously wrong. Like VERY OBVIOUSLY.
Also Qwilfish has trouble fitting everything it wants in 1 moveset already, if you have 3 you basically HAVE to run now you only get 1 free slot, severely reducing Qwilfish's potential utility and making it less effective if facing anything other than ChickenPass (because let's face it, Haze is pretty useless otherwise).

So basically the line of thinking some people are showing here is misguided and only a further proof of how much of a problem Combusken is.

Yes, this is misguided. No, its not proof of how much of a problem combusken is. It's proof that people don't know how to make an argument.
If I were to say "I run Miltank so I have no problems with Shiftry, just run Miltank and you'll be fine!", then yes, I would be suggesting that everyone who has trouble which shiftry should run miltank, but no, that isn't an argument you could use to say shiftry is broken, that's just me being overenthusiastic in suggesting one pokemon.

There isn't one counter being thrown around; there are several. Poliwrath, Steelix, Dragalge, Qwilfish, are some I've seen, and there are definitely more.

(Also, haze qwilfish stops SD Gatr and all Slurpuff, among other threats, and sets up spikes, so its not useless at all).
--
One problem is that all of these counters are defensive. I haven't played using a defensive team against combusken, but I'd imagine that given the time to adjust their teams, I'd imagine stall teams can deal with combusken reasonably. Offensive teams have more trouble, since there's nothing on the team which can really stop it once it gets in, and applying constant pressure is almost impossible given its good bulk. Most baton passers can be killed be priority, but combusken can't. It's impossible to check with an offensive pokemon because they aren't built to phaze. They're meant to KO certain threats, and unless its via priority, combusken can switch to a pokemon which can deal with these threats. Given that, I'm starting to lean towards combusken being banned.

edit: on the topic of Combusken counters, I just thought of Grumpig. With thick fat and a psychic typing, it deals with whatever combusken throws at it as far as attacks go. It threatens it with Psychic/Psyshock, and can use whirlwind to phaze away any boosts.

 

[Ares]

Yes, this is misguided. No, its not proof of how much of a problem combusken is. It's proof that people don't know how to make an argument.
If I were to say "I run Miltank so I have no problems with Shiftry, just run Miltank and you'll be fine!", then yes, I would be suggesting that everyone who has trouble which shiftry should run miltank, but no, that isn't an argument you could use to say shiftry is broken, that's just me being overenthusiastic in suggesting one pokemon.

There isn't one counter being thrown around; there are several. Poliwrath, Steelix, Dragalge, Qwilfish, are some I've seen, and there are definitely more.

(Also, haze qwilfish stops SD Gatr and all Slurpuff, among other threats, and sets up spikes, so its not useless at all).
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One problem is that all of these counters are defensive. I haven't played using a defensive team against combusken, but I'd imagine that given the time to adjust their teams, I'd imagine stall teams can deal with combusken reasonably. Offensive teams have more trouble, since there's nothing on the team which can really stop it once it gets in, and applying constant pressure is almost impossible given its good bulk. Most baton passers can be killed be priority, but combusken can't. It's impossible to check with an offensive pokemon because they aren't built to phaze. They're meant to KO certain threats, and unless its via priority, combusken can switch to a pokemon which can deal with these threats. Given that, I'm starting to lean towards combusken being banned.

edit: on the topic of Combusken counters, I just thought of Grumpig. With thick fat and a psychic typing, it deals with whatever combusken throws at it as far as attacks go. It threatens it with Psychic/Psyshock, and can use whirlwind to phaze away any boosts.

So the only true Counter out of that list is Qwilfish. All of the other ones the user has to be on point with their prediction game because on a Combusken pass team they can either switch in Xatu for Magic Bounce for Whirlwind into Slurpuff for Dtail immunity or into KlingKlang (which seems to be the common steel) for immunity to poison. Only haze has no counter that Combusken can pass into. Also for Dtail Combusken can start running Substitute over fire punch to sub on the dtail after a bulk up it wont break as pointed out by Quite Quiet. And Grumpig was pointed out on the NU Viablility ranking to get pushed up because of it being able to be a good check to combusken pass, but once again Xatu pretty much effectually stops it.

 

[Aladyyn]

Not to mention Qwilfish gets nailed by Xatu's stab and can't really do that much in return...

 

[Ares]

Not to mention Qwilfish gets nailed by Xatu's stab and can't really do that much in return...

To be fair ala, most Xatu's on Combusken pass run Stored Power as their STAB.
252+ SpA Xatu Stored Power (20 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Qwilfish: 96-114 (28.7 - 34.1%) -- 0.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

However after one calm mind:
+1 252+ SpA Xatu Stored Power (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Qwilfish: 420-494 (125.7 - 147.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO