np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Spider Man [Metagrossite remains OU]

[Arcanine is Regal]

Yeah I want to add on to the idea that we are voting no ban because broken checks broken. The pro ban side is saying how unhealthy he is for the metagame, but when we say he is healthy for the metagame you say we are using faulty arguments. I can not speak for everyone but when I say metagross is keeping the metagame in balance, I do not mean he is keeping broken things in check. I think because metagross is getting compared to aegislash so much (which is stupid) he is getting a worse rep, aegislash was a broken mon that was keeping a BUNCH of questionable things in check. Metagross is just allowing for counter play within the tier, I mean people are acting like metagross just auto wins verse teams with a diancie on them, but no way in hell is metagross switching into an earth power which is standard on every diancie not to mention they have the same speed tier, so in a dire situation diancie could risk metagros having bullet punch(which is rare in my experience) and do about 70% which should be enough if metagross switched into any attack prior. I think people are way overstating his ability to switch into things, I mean EVERY single fairy carries a move to hit steels and you people are acting like metagross is the sole reason for that, there are plenty of steel types in OU that can keep fairies in check.

I wish I was more active in this discussion early on because it seems most people have given up talking about it at this point. But I mean even clefable can do about 50% to metagross with a flamethrower, and if there is a ferrothorn on the clefable team, metagross has to decide whether he wants to hammer arm the incoming ferro and risk just dying to clefable, or meteor mashing into a ferro. Metagross can not really OHKO any common core mons on balance and relies pretty heavily on prediction, also inaccurate moves(granted 90% isnt bad but it is noteworthy).

Honestly I dont think there is one fairy that metagross can switch into, specs sylveon is doing about 80-90% with shadow ball, clefable could twave or flamethrower, diancie has earth power, gard maybe although it could also have shadow ball. I am going to tag WebBowser because one of your main arguments was how many opportunities he gets to switch in(I think it was you sorry if not). But if you could maybe give a list substantial enough to warrant a ban, I would appreciate it because I hoenstly can not think of too many things metagross can switch into with ease(especially in base form).

From what I can gather a number of people want metagross gone not because he is broken but because it is one less threat to prepare for, which eases team building and is a more enjoyable meta(to some). If that is the criteria we should be using to vote then by that logic we could ban any mon in the A+ or S rank and the metagame would be better.

I do this every suspect test where I look at their matchup against common playstyles and see how they fare, I will be more brief than usual here. For offensive teams one of the most common cores to start around offense are scarf lando-t and manectric both of which are very good checks to metagross and can keep up momentum as to not give the opponent free turns, not to mention the double intimidate. If I had a metagross I would not like going up against that team. But there are other common HO mons like gengar, bisharp, garchomp, excadrill(in sand or scarfed), scarf ttar, gyarados, just to name the ones at the top of my head. Just because all of these arent considered "counter" does not mean they can not handle metagross in most situations. Then against balance it becomes a bit more of a toss up, there are mons like lando-t, hippo, slowbro, ferro, heatran, starmie, mega scizor that can all beat metagross 1v1 but can only switch in circumstantially, Metagross has a good matchup against most balance builds but does not seem uncompetitive or broken. Stall has rocky helm counter skarmory which can not only beat it 1v1 but punish it by going for attacks with rocky helm and since metagross has no recovery that is deadly, there are also other mons that can take a hit and twave or burn metagross.

Anyway maybe I am off base a bit, but I feel like the pro ban side is exaggerating his capabilities, so I have to counter it best I can. But let me also say that I would not mind if metagross got banned AT ALL because that means one less thing I have to prepare for and my mega venu team can reach its full potential. But even that team had no problem(well metagross was an issue but I could handle it) with metagross because I could hp fire it if it switched into venu, then switch to rocky helm slowbro and now metagross has just taken like 60-70% and slowbro can just switch to recover damage( I know this is requires prediction but honestly it goes both ways and I might as well be on the side of prediction that helps my case since it more or less is around 50% in either direction) The point being is that metagross does not seem to fit any defintion of broken or uncompetitive, which is why I am on the no ban side. But if we ban metagross on the premise that there are too many threats and it will make teambuilding easier, then where does it end?

 

[BlueLobster]

How the hell does HO get the short end of the stick with Meta around? It can use Meta itself due to it's speed and power, it isn't hard to get some prior damage on it and beat it with Lando-T, Bisharp, M.Manetric, Garchomp, Talonflame and many other pokes who were solid in HO before ORAS anyway. Nothing has really become unusable like Aegislash made things or have a eise in unviable checks like MMence did (seeing so many Avalugg was funny), it doesn't change the balance of the meta enough to make it harmful to the meta.

Stall has great answers to it in MEye, Slowbro (fears GK however), Skarmory etc, HO has the double intimidate core, Bisharp, Chomp, T-Flame etc, Balance has Skarmory, T-Flame, Lando-T, Gliscor etc, All these checks are easily splashable and viable, not super niche like MMence's, and there are more I've forgot too. Aegi had far less checks, MMence had laughable ones, Gren had only 2 answers on stall which weren't too hard to play around, MMeta has loads that have been solid OU before it's arrival in XY, and won't decline in usage if it's (uneeded) ban happens like Aegi/Mandibuzz or MMence/Avalugg (who is beat by fire blast anyway lol), the first is pretty good in OU, but it's main niche in checking Aegi went so lost alot of usage and Avalugg is unviable outside of the Mence filled meta and is a poor man's Skarm V a non Mence team (Skarm actually checks Mence as well, no idea why the table saw usage).

Also, broken checking broken is inaccurate when neither mon in broken. Banning Meta for the sake of it only ends up making a no more solid meta than there is now, but with 3-5 more bans. Do we really want to limit the meta while not making it any more enjoyable?

 

[WebBowser]

MegaScizor First off, I absolutely agree that if mmeta is not broken, then the "broken checking broken is a lame argument" argument suddenly stops holding water. I was also the guy who started comparing mmeta to aegislash as well as the guy who claims that mmeta has plenty of swap in opportunities.

I will start by defending the latter claim.

So going down the OU viability rankings, mmeta can swap into the following mons:

S Rank:

Hide

MMeta: Swaps into opposing mmeta as long as they aren't running EQ, making EQ and pursuit sets solid checks to the standard mmeta set.

Keldeo: Swaps into Keld's sacred sword, but not much else, making him a shaky check to most keldeo sets.

A+ Rank:

Hide

MAlteria: Can easily swap into hyper voice and return. It can also take a +1 EQ from the DD set and fire blast from the special attacker set (though he won't like it). Can solidly counter once and is overall a pretty strong check.


Azumarill: Solid counter to the AV set, needs a bit of prior damage to beat the CB set(MM does 70-82%). Needs some bulk investment to avoid a ohko from +6 aqua jet from the BD set. In short, bulky variants swap into azu all day, fast variants don't like to.


Clefable: Doesn't even take 50% from defensive fable's flamethrower. Obviously fears twave. In case modest LO clefable is still a thing it beasts that too, though not before taking a heavy hit(69-82% on nonbulky).


M-Diancie: Has been discussed to death. MMeta can take an EP, but not an EP + Moonblast. Solid check, but definitely no counter unless running Bullet Punch.


M-Gyara: Can't swap into crunch, EQ or DD. Awful check.


Heatran: Swaps into anything other then lava plume and roar. Can KO with EQ and comes close with Hamarm.


Lopunny: Hard Counter to pretty much any standard m-lop set.


Latios: Can swap into anything and threaten with meteor mash. Speedy variants risk speed tie.


Talonflame: It can swap into CB variants locked into BB and u-turn. Fears flare blitz but not ohkoed by it.


Thundy-I: Counters non dark pulse varients, but doesn't like twave.

Other notable swap ins: Celebi, M-Gard, Latias, non-EQ m-pinsir, m-venu, mega hera, magnezone, amoonguss(barring spore), Breloom (again barring spore), Chansey(barring twave), Hawlucha, Kabutops, Kingdra outside of rain, non EP Kyub, Tenta, non-EQ terrakion, Conkeldurr, Togekiss(barring twave on switch), not to mention mons that he can swap into two or three of their four moves without trouble such as ttar and mega-aero.

I dunno bout you, but that's a lot of swap in opportunities. Many of them don't even require mmeta to be evolved to swap in.

As for the aegis comparison that I like to bring up, I never said that mmeta is stronger then aegis or anything like that, but they do have similar stengths and weaknesses. They have great defensive typing and natural bulk that gives them easy swap ins against virtually every team, and they bring enough immediate power to severely weaken the majority of mons that try to swap into them, putting tremendous pressure on the enemy team. They are both easily checked and revenge killed due to common weaknesses and their poor setup options, but that really doesn't matter because they never have to setup, they just come in, whack something, and then swap out.

 

[Inglorion]

oh? really? Sableye-Mega is not enough? Bulky Mega Scizor is not enough?

inb4 "Mega Sableye fears Meteor Mash on the switch", yeah it's true, but you are a stall team, you also have a Skarmory and a Quagsire or even a Slowbro to make him hard to opt for a Meteor Mash on the switch-in. It's up to predictions.




I've said it earlier, but I guess you didnt read the whole thread (which is normal).

I have a standard HO team using Garchomp / Bisharp / Manec / Lando-t. It's a pretty standard and well-known Volt Turn core.

Metagross can't switch safely in all of them, so more than half your team is checking Metagross without even considering it.

It's not that hard for an HO team to deal with Metagross. And it's not the only one possibility, a standard HO with M-Scizor / Lopunny won't have an hard time with Metagross, or at least it will just depends of the mon you will use, and none of them won't bu used just for Metagross (Thundurs / Raikou for example)




Not really, a large majority of Metagross are running Mmas / tPunch / Harm / Gknot nowadays.




Not really, as I said before, the metagame will turn into a full balanced-build metagame centralized around Diancie/Altaria. And they already exist. The metagame will neither be more diverse or counting newer trends at all.




I hope I help you to reconsider your vote ;]

I'd like to reply to this because it's true that you pretty much just build teams without Megagross in mind and you already have so many things that threaten it.

I'll list just a few of my OU teams to exemplify this:

Team 1: DD Mega Altaria with EQ, Suicune, Scarf Timid Zone, Air Balloon Excadrill, Sash SD Weavile, Band Talon.

So at +1 Mega Altaria does a shitload with EQ, Suicune is a solid switchin and threatens with Scald, Zone traps and outspeeds for guaranteed TBolts or Volt Switches, Excadrill can hit it with an EQ if it hasn't mega - evolved yet or scout out Hammer Arm by switching to Fighting resists, Weavile outspeeds for a guaranteed SE Knock Off (and without Bullet Punch it can boost to +2 and I believe guaranteed KO with Knock Off), Band Talon needs no explanation.

Team 2: Mega Houndoom, Rotom-W, Chesnaught, Skarmory (non-Counter), Sash Diggersby, Gengar.

Do I even need to list how many ways this team has to handle Gross?

The point being you can just build a good team and have so many ways of beating Megagross almost by accident.

 

[AM]

I'd like to reply to this because it's true that you pretty much just build teams without Megagross in mind and you already have so many things that threaten it.

I'll list just a few of my OU teams to exemplify this:

Team 1: DD Mega Altaria with EQ, Suicune, Scarf Timid Zone, Air Balloon Excadrill, Sash SD Weavile, Band Talon.

So at +1 Mega Altaria does a shitload with EQ, Suicune is a solid switchin and threatens with Scald, Zone traps and outspeeds for guaranteed TBolts or Volt Switches, Excadrill can hit it with an EQ if it hasn't mega - evolved yet or scout out Hammer Arm by switching to Fighting resists, Weavile outspeeds for a guaranteed SE Knock Off (and without Bullet Punch it can boost to +2 and I believe guaranteed KO with Knock Off), Band Talon needs no explanation.

Team 2: Mega Houndoom, Rotom-W, Chesnaught, Skarmory (non-Counter), Sash Diggersby, Gengar.

Do I even need to list how many ways this team has to handle Gross?

The point being you can just build a good team and have so many ways of beating Megagross almost by accident.

I find it funny how you used two teams that just get floored by Agility M-Gross as your argument that you somehow handle M-Gross by "accident". It's understandable if you don't think it's broken for providing a detailed description of how it functions against each playstyle but this was a pretty poor example of team building that is suppose to set an example that you're prepared for M-Gross when in reality you're not even closed to prepped for it based on the archetypes that are usually associated with M-Gross. That's highly underestimating M-Metagross if you make teams to beat it without even thinking about it. I seriously hope some anti-ban people realize how false this line of thinking is and granted you can make a good case such as Halycons post a couple of pages back for an anti-ban argument, but this really isn't one of them.

 

[Inglorion]

I find it funny how you used two teams that just get floored by Agility M-Gross as your argument that you somehow handle M-Gross by "accident". It's understandable if you don't think it's broken for providing a detailed description of how it functions against each playstyle but this was a pretty poor example of team building that is suppose to set an example that you're prepared for M-Gross when in reality you're not even closed to prepped for it based on the archetypes that are usually associated with M-Gross. That's highly underestimating M-Metagross if you make teams to beat it without even thinking about it. I seriously hope some anti-ban people realize how false this line of thinking is and granted you can make a good case such as Halycons post a couple of pages back for an anti-ban argument, but this really isn't one of them.

How does Suicune get floored by Agility Gross, or Sash Weavile? Even Talonflame cannot be OHKO'd by Agility Zen Headbutt. What about Sash Diggersby, Rotom-W, Skarmory with WW? Yeah, not a chance in hell either team gets floored by Agility Megagross.

 

[p2]

How does Suicune get floored by Agility Gross, or Sash Weavile? What about Sash Diggersby, Rotom-W, Skarmory with WW?

Sash is just unreliable when you factor in being able to deal with something since Rocks or Spikes are going to be up most of the time
Suicune has like a 60% chance of losing to Grass Knot variants, Rotom-W gets 2HKOd and Skarmory gets outslowed by MMeta after Hammer Arm so it cannot safely roost against it, it only beats it if it's running Counter and can wear it down if it's Rocky Helmet

 

[Inglorion]

Sash is just unreliable when you factor in being able to deal with something since Rocks or Spikes are going to be up most of the time
Suicune has like a 60% chance of losing to Grass Knot variants, Rotom-W gets 2HKOd and Skarmory gets outslowed by MMeta after Hammer Arm so it cannot safely roost against it, it only beats it if it's running Counter and can wear it down if it's Rocky Helmet

You're forgetting that it's not running one of its two common coverage moves, as it needs to run Agility. Even if Rotom-W is 2HKO'd, it's switching in on an Agility, not an attack, so it can get off the burn.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

How does Suicune get floored by Agility Gross, or Sash Weavile? Even Talonflame cannot be OHKO'd by Agility Zen Headbutt. What about Sash Diggersby, Rotom-W, Skarmory with WW? Yeah, not a chance in hell either team gets floored by Agility Megagross.

He didn't say that your team was 6-0'd by Agility Metagross. However, many of the listed team members just need a bit of chip damage for AgiliGross to take them out:
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 273-322 (83.4 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 289-342 (92.6 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

For those teams listed, all Mega Metagross needs is something to handle your bulky waters and a bit of chip damage on your offensive checks, which isn't exactly a huge burden on the M-Meta user.

However, this discussion is rather pointless. It's not wrong to think that there are enough checks to handle all of M-Meta's sets, but arguing whether you can whip up a team that counters something off the top of your head does nothing to show if it's broken. I could easily come up with a strong stall team that deals with Greninja, but it wouldn't prove that Greninja wasn't broken.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

Okay, first of all, you saying MMeta, MSab, and MDiancie aren't broken like it's a guaranteed fact due to them having checks is a non-argument. Aegislash had checks (Charzard-Y, Landorous-T, Jolly Bisharp) and Greninja even had checks (Bisharp, scarf-anything, Talonflame)...and while we're at it, so did Megemence with Scarf Ninja/Noivern, etc. Having checks does not make him good for the meta nor does it make him healthy nor does it make him unbroken.

On top of that to argue that stall gets the short stick due to MDiance is strange to me. With Megagross HO has the short end of the stick (of course Megagross can fit comfortably on HO/Balance which is something that helps them) in the sense that they have to sack or make predictions not in their favor every time Megagross finds itself in safely. We shouldn't prioritize one playstyle over the other. Also just because one threat that stall handles better is gone doesn't mean stall is getting the short end of the stick. If Megagross is preventing stallbreakers from being used then it's definitely for the best that it goes, if it isn't preventing stallbreakers then that argument doesn't make sense because stallbreakers are around to manage stall anyway. As far as Diancie goes, yeah don't get me wrong, MSableye will be used a bit less on stall probably but that doesn't mean that MSab is unusable nor does it mean stall can't handle MDiancie, especially since the more common Diancie sets give balance/HO trouble more than stall imo. Calm Mind Diancie is a nightmare for balance (and it can be rough for stall too but way more easily managed than for balance with an influx of mons that can boost alongside it, haze/phaze it, or just sit there with unaware) and Rock Polish is a nightmare for HO. Then there's protect+3 attacks which stall can certainly handle without question.

Also how in the world does balance get the short end of the stick? You can't slap MMeta on there anymore but other than that, Balance is now open to use a whole new host of defensive/offensive cores without having to worry about Megagross. It allows balance to do what balance does best in the first place: check the majority of the meta as comfortably as possible, while maintaining and offensive/defensive presence. Banning MMeta does wonders for balance imo.

Alright.

Aegi had checks, yes. It also destroyed nearly everything else. Bisharp checked Greninja? Anything scarfed gets fucked because Greninja easily switches out and gains momentum for the other team.

In a MMeta less meta, shit like MGarde, MDiancie, Gengar (hates speed ties and switching in) Char Y, etc got much more popular due to MMeta being gone. Those four pokemon absolutely destroy stall. Including some others, Stall got the short end. In fact, Stall isnt even on the fucking stick.

Megagross made HO awesome. MMeta had the most checks on HO (notice checks: HO almost never has counters against S rank mons) and he worked great on it. Stall and BO were also pretty good too, but if we remove MMeta thats like removing a chunk of a bottom of a tall building: its unstable and some parts are more sturdy than others. HO Is all about gaining momentum: If a HO team doesnt need a mon, they sack and revenge kill.

Anyways, MMeta isnt on every team, and every team with a stallbreaker should have something to check MMeta or you are just a poor teambuilder because most of MMetas checks/counters are viable and common.

MDiancie really does not tear through stall in most cases, but when Jirachi, SpDef Gliscor and Chansey is eliminated, it tears. MGarde is also a good mention too... Fuck chansey tho. Finally, Char Y is probably the best Mega stallbreaker and beats the fuck out of most stall teams (fuck chansey again) and imo Balance is my least favorite playstyle and i never really seen anything good in it :(. Then again im an offense junkie.

I'm probably ignorant so i wont talk about Balance because i barely know it (all i know is that every time i use a balance team it sucks lol) And also Balance usually runs checks/counters to MMeta even in suspect because they are so good anyways. I find it hilarious that a single mon stops a whole playstyle? Running one pokemon to stop MMeta just breaks Balance? Thats horrible logic :/. If we ban mmeta then the meta will be much more unbalanced. Thats what i think, ofc.

 

[Inglorion]

He didn't say that your team was 6-0'd by Agility Metagross. However, many of the listed team members just need a bit of chip damage for AgiliGross to take them out:
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 273-322 (83.4 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 289-342 (92.6 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

For those teams listed, all Mega Metagross needs is something to handle your bulky waters and a bit of chip damage on your offensive checks, which isn't exactly a huge burden on the M-Meta user.

However, this discussion is rather pointless. It's not wrong to think that there are enough checks to handle all of M-Meta's sets, but arguing whether you can whip up a team that counters something off the top of your head does nothing to show if it's broken. I could easily come up with a strong stall team that deals with Greninja, but it wouldn't prove that Greninja wasn't broken.

Agreed, the purpose of posting those teams was to make a point, not to have them dissected. Suffice it to say that both teams have several viable ways of handling standard 4 attacks Gross, and both teams have some difficulty, not "floored by", an uncommon set on the best pokemon in the tier. Not too bad in my mind.

Also can't believe he used the term "floored by", that's a gross exaggeration (pun intended) if I ever saw one.

 

[Terminate421]

Yeah I want to add on to the idea that we are voting no ban because broken checks broken. The pro ban side is saying how unhealthy he is for the metagame, but when we say he is healthy for the metagame you say we are using faulty arguments. I can not speak for everyone but when I say metagross is keeping the metagame in balance, I do not mean he is keeping broken things in check. I think because metagross is getting compared to aegislash so much (which is stupid) he is getting a worse rep, aegislash was a broken mon that was keeping a BUNCH of questionable things in check. Metagross is just allowing for counter play within the tier, I mean people are acting like metagross just auto wins verse teams with a diancie on them, but no way in hell is metagross switching into an earth power which is standard on every diancie not to mention they have the same speed tier, so in a dire situation diancie could risk metagros having bullet punch(which is rare in my experience) and do about 70% which should be enough if metagross switched into any attack prior. I think people are way overstating his ability to switch into things, I mean EVERY single fairy carries a move to hit steels and you people are acting like metagross is the sole reason for that, there are plenty of steel types in OU that can keep fairies in check.

I wish I was more active in this discussion early on because it seems most people have given up talking about it at this point. But I mean even clefable can do about 50% to metagross with a flamethrower, and if there is a ferrothorn on the clefable team, metagross has to decide whether he wants to hammer arm the incoming ferro and risk just dying to clefable, or meteor mashing into a ferro. Metagross can not really OHKO any common core mons on balance and relies pretty heavily on prediction, also inaccurate moves(granted 90% isnt bad but it is noteworthy).

Honestly I dont think there is one fairy that metagross can switch into, specs sylveon is doing about 80-90% with shadow ball, clefable could twave or flamethrower, diancie has earth power, gard maybe although it could also have shadow ball. I am going to tag WebBowser because one of your main arguments was how many opportunities he gets to switch in(I think it was you sorry if not). But if you could maybe give a list substantial enough to warrant a ban, I would appreciate it because I hoenstly can not think of too many things metagross can switch into with ease(especially in base form).

From what I can gather a number of people want metagross gone not because he is broken but because it is one less threat to prepare for, which eases team building and is a more enjoyable meta(to some). If that is the criteria we should be using to vote then by that logic we could ban any mon in the A+ or S rank and the metagame would be better.

I do this every suspect test where I look at their matchup against common playstyles and see how they fare, I will be more brief than usual here. For offensive teams one of the most common cores to start around offense are scarf lando-t and manectric both of which are very good checks to metagross and can keep up momentum as to not give the opponent free turns, not to mention the double intimidate. If I had a metagross I would not like going up against that team. But there are other common HO mons like gengar, bisharp, garchomp, excadrill(in sand or scarfed), scarf ttar, gyarados, just to name the ones at the top of my head. Just because all of these arent considered "counter" does not mean they can not handle metagross in most situations. Then against balance it becomes a bit more of a toss up, there are mons like lando-t, hippo, slowbro, ferro, heatran, starmie, mega scizor that can all beat metagross 1v1 but can only switch in circumstantially, Metagross has a good matchup against most balance builds but does not seem uncompetitive or broken. Stall has rocky helm counter skarmory which can not only beat it 1v1 but punish it by going for attacks with rocky helm and since metagross has no recovery that is deadly, there are also other mons that can take a hit and twave or burn metagross.

Anyway maybe I am off base a bit, but I feel like the pro ban side is exaggerating his capabilities, so I have to counter it best I can. But let me also say that I would not mind if metagross got banned AT ALL because that means one less thing I have to prepare for and my mega venu team can reach its full potential. But even that team had no problem(well metagross was an issue but I could handle it) with metagross because I could hp fire it if it switched into venu, then switch to rocky helm slowbro and now metagross has just taken like 60-70% and slowbro can just switch to recover damage( I know this is requires prediction but honestly it goes both ways and I might as well be on the side of prediction that helps my case since it more or less is around 50% in either direction) The point being is that metagross does not seem to fit any defintion of broken or uncompetitive, which is why I am on the no ban side. But if we ban metagross on the premise that there are too many threats and it will make teambuilding easier, then where does it end?

Honestly you hit the nail right on the head.

So far the depressing factor for either side has been just one less thing to prepare for, that doesn't make the Metagame healthier to remove him if we're all being Lazy.

I've been Anti-ban mostly for adding spice to the meta-game and trying my damn hardest to prevent this from just going all the way back to the XY meta-game where things got stale fast as hell and nothing interesting was being made. ORAS comes along and injects stuff into this meta-game and within a short amount of time we're already debating kicking out it's first major stimpak in the form of Metagross.

What I'm heavily afraid of is the chain of bans that happens AFTER him. People have been suggesting, "Oh, we'll just ban those too, like always show no mercy." and little do they realize we're heading down the road immediately to the same exact meta-game we had before ORAS came out. Literally the only difference between then and now (If we were to ban all the newest Mega-pokemon or pokemon with new moves) is:

Mega Sceptile is viable
Starmie is coming back thanks to Greninja being gone
Contrary Serperior is a thing

I'm awaiting someone to quote me and tell me that I'm not making a single argument but honestly I'm not even going to respond to that. Metagross's perks have been stated many times on this board and "debates" have been made. I'm still in the Anti-Ban camp due to the fact that Metagross is something people are already prepared for anyway, despite it's great capabilities, it's hindered by several factors that prevent it from being a free get out of jail card. No ban, Mega-Metagross is simply another threat one must take into account, most teams are prepared for the thing anyway and even if yours isn't then simply look into how you can handle that instead of just banning it away.

 

[Machi]

In a MMeta less meta, shit like MGarde, MDiancie, Gengar (hates speed ties and switching in) Char Y, etc got much more popular due to MMeta being gone. Those four pokemon absolutely destroy stall. Including some others, Stall got the short end. In fact, Stall isnt even on the fucking stick.

You make it sound like stall is not already accounting for these threats, a good team certainly won't pray and hope that they'll simply luck out in not encountering these threats. Even more so that stall that runs MSable, they'll definitely need to run something to check the offensive fairies (especially MGarde who is the biggest threat especially if it carries taunt). There is no short end so to speak for stall with regard to this matter because it is far from the case that they haven't taken these legitimate threats into account, doesn't mean they don't have a high likelihood of still losing to them or being pressured immensely.

MGross does not exactly take away from this equation whatsoever, and is positive in so much that is one less wall breaker (Grass Knot variants shit on AmoongBro cores). So I am not sure how this imbalances stall in any form or manner, again you have to account for the threats you mentioned regardless of MGross.

That said my opinion on MGross is somewhat iffy in so much that I can't particularly claim difficulty in dealing with him in so much that I love using MDiancie and MGarde. Hence, my teams more or less already need to account for any offensive steels that would hamper my killing spree, just by using these fairies I already need to account for any potential steel not specifically MGross.

What makes me iffy is that I can't claim him to be that difficult to deal with in comparison to any of the other steels, aside maybe that he may saturate teams with an additional steel (in which case I hate your team). He is very much prone to prediction, unlike say MGarde who could care less about prediction and just spam Hyper Voice without much consequence (unless there is a Heatran), since Steel and Psychic are easily resisted/immune. The moves while powerful are still left with immediate drawback due to their coverage that allows you to play around them.

I can't say his bulk is anything too novel in so much that I find it characteristic of all steel types anyways, though he has speed to add to that. I guess what stands out for me at best with his typing and bulk is that he fits fairly well in offensive or Bulky offense teams in so much that he actually offers defensive synergy, so he is a boon to those teams unlike MDiancie who offers nothing in that department and at times you run the risk of compounding weaknesses (this is why I dislike MDiancie + Magnezone cores they offer very little synergy just a lazy way of dealing with steels).

Another thing I have reservations about is that I don't feel his loss to a team being all that much of a detriment, I don't immediately think they've lost their win condition.

Honestly, I'm rather undecided on this suspect, and this is my lack of enthusiasm in pursuing this one unlike Greninja. One thing that does bother me about this thread so far is how people keep jumping the gun with fairies, I'm honestly surprised if at this point you never carried at least 2 checks to fairies considering how threatening they are regardless of your team type. I guess people seem to have the idea that something able to generally flat out kill a fairy type in one hit using meteor mash means gg against them.

Edit: One more thing I'd like to add is why does it appear that many people just pray and hope to not account for X or Y threat? Sure the likelihood of encountering MGarde and MDiancie is smaller than MGross but that doesn't mean you shouldn't account for it if clearly they can steam roll all over you team.

I don't know if this is just poor team building on the part of the community or this is a symptom of the match up based issue that has been brought up, I guess it may be both to a varying degree. Regardless, there is something disturbing in the fact that people seem to leave certain threats up to chance than to address them even if only in small part.

 

[Merritt]

Suicune has like a 60% chance of losing to Grass Knot variants,

Actually, Suicune is remarkably safe. Standard CroCune checks handily, and counters if rocks are not up. Let's look at rockless countering.

0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

3HKO and Metagross outspeeds. Not looking good for our hero. But wait! Rest saves the day! Now Metagross cannot kill you before you rest. Of course, it can just lock you into rest, right?

Not quite. If sleep talk calls Calm Mind once, Suicune wins.

0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 118-140 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now Suicune can calm mind without sleep talk or fish for scald burns before having to rest.

With rocks, Suicune is not a reliable counter, is it is 2HKOed by Grass Knot about 60% of the time, but works the exact same way as a check, except it has to rest turn 1 before starting the cycle.

 

[WECAMEASROMANS]

The argument of the pro ban side is weak and I simply don't get the logic of why numerous people here are advocating for the ban of Mega Metagross.

When you want to ban a pokemon/ability/item or whatever, there's really only two questions you have to ask yourself.

1. Is it broken? (too blatantly good for the tier, ability to sweep/wall/support the team with minimal effort necessary, extremely centralizes the metagame)
2. Is it uncompetitive? (removes basic game mechanics, takes skill away from the game, makes games match up reliant, etc)

The vast majority of people here, even people on the pro ban side, believe that Metagross is neither broken nor uncompetitive. That's basically it, end of argument. If you want something to be banned, that thing should either be broken or uncompetitive, and Metagross is neither, which is why it should stay in OU. Obviously, if you do think it is broken, then you can vote Ban by all means, but the majority of players here believe Metagross really isn't considered broken.

No, I don't give a flying fuck whether you think the metagame is better without Metagross in it, and neither should you if you're voting to ban it.
No, I don't give a flying fuck if you think matchup is too big of a factor in the current metagame, and neither should you if you're voting to ban it. (Banning Metagross won't even remedy the matchup problem, its simply one less pokemon in the enormous pool of viable pokemon we have. Just make teams that are less prone to matchup if that's what your issue is here)

Mega Metagross isn't broken, nor is it uncompetitive, and those are the only two questions you should ask yourself if you want to ban something, so I'm voting NO BAN.

 

[trillyntruly]

No, I don't give a flying fuck whether you think the metagame is better without Metagross in it, and neither should you if you're voting to ban it.
No, I don't give a flying fuck if you think matchup is too big of a factor in the current metagame, and neither should you if you're voting to ban it.

keep in mind that i think megagross is broken (almost perfectly fits the latter 2 of your signifiers and arguably the first imo) and that he's the primary cause of what i deem to be an increasingly stale, boring, and frankly, bad meta. so my question is why? why should one who happens to maybe not agree with him being broken but agrees that he has a negative impact on the meta not vote ban? shouldn't we strive for a good, competitive metagame? aren't there certain standards for our tiers that we as a community aim to achieve? if the meta is legitimately better without megagross, why would you expect somebody to still vote no ban? why not make the action that would help cause a fun, diverse, and thriving metagame?

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

keep in mind that i think megagross is broken (almost perfectly fits the latter 2 of your signifiers and arguably the first imo) and that he's the primary cause of what i deem to be an increasingly stale, boring, and frankly, bad meta. so my question is why? why should one who happens to maybe not agree with him being broken but agrees that he has a negative impact on the meta not vote ban? shouldn't we strive for a good, competitive metagame? aren't there certain standards for our tiers that we as a community aim to achieve? if the meta is legitimately better without megagross, why would you expect somebody to still vote no ban? why not make the action that would help cause a fun, diverse, and thriving metagame?

If the aim is for a better metagame, and Mega Metagross isn't broken (while you don't, many pro-ban people believe this), then why is it on the chopping block in the first place?

Really, the only way I can imagine that Mega Metagross leaving leads to a better metagame, is that it's simply one less thing to prepare for. So why not basically any top-tier mon? Or Scald? Scald is fucking annoying, the game would be way better if Scald wasn't allowed. Let's ban Scald.

I just can't support banning something that's not broken, even if it leads to a "better" metagame. Basically any powerful and centralizing pokemon getting banned leads to an arguably better metagame.

 

[WebBowser]

So my question is why? why should one who happens to maybe not agree with him being broken but agrees that he has a negative impact on the meta not vote ban? shouldn't we strive for a good, competitive metagame? aren't there certain standards for our tiers that we as a community aim to achieve? if the meta is legitimately better without megagross, why would you expect somebody to still vote no ban? why not make the action that would help cause a fun, diverse, and thriving metagame?

There's a simple reason why you should not ban MMeta if he isn't broken: By banning a non-broken mon for arbitrary reasons such as "I like the suspect meta better" is incredibly short sighted and turns our lauded suspect test system into a glorified popularity contest. The reason why we bother even having a definition of "broken", as imperfect/incomplete as that definition may be, is to try and have something resembling objective standards under which we can argue about whether or not a mon is unhealthy for the metagame. By saying "mmeta isn't broken, but let's ban it anyway", you render our only meaningful set of standards completely meaningless, which sets a terrible precedent that makes it almost impossible to argue that anything isn't banworthy, as long as you can get some respected players to support your cause.

I think that this is a horrendous precedent to set, and frankly I'm kicking myself for not participating in the Aegislash suspect, as that's probably where the whole idea of banning non-broken mons is alright started catching on as a viable argument. Don't get me wrong, I still believe mmeta to be broken, and therefore banworthy, but if you do not believe him to be broken then you absolutely shouldn't be pro-ban.

For this reason, I have tried to use my posts in an attempt to update our standards for determining things to be broken and arguing that mmeta is broken under these new standards. It hasn't really caught on yet, but I think it's the right direction to take.

Also, ninjasked by Sergeant Spooky

 

[trillyntruly]

While I see what you're saying, I disagree with the notion that an argument for Megagross's ban due to its impact on the metagame is boiled down to "i don't like that meta, i like this meta"

Ultimately, you just admitted that there are no objective standards regarding whether or not a mon is broken. We came as romans just listed a few qualities that could make a mon broken, yet I took those qualities and applied them to MMeta, whereas other players will take those qualities and say they do not apply to MMeta. So we can agree that there is little-to-no objectivity in the first place. So, if one player who understands a mon deeply can make an argument, a case, for whether or not a particular mon is broken, why is it that if a player who is extremely knowledgeable of the state of the meta/the meta in general makes an argument/case for whether or not the meta is stale/thriving, etc, it's inherently subjective and an unworthy argument? I consider myself to be a decent player but I do not understand the meta as deeply as some players. This is why, despite my opinion that the meta is exceedingly stale due to Megagross, I've been arguing his merits as a mon and how those merits make him broken, because I cannot make a particularly valid argument as an individual as to why Megagross's impact alone has a particular affect on that meta, what that affect is, and how his absence will change it. I don't understand the meta well enough to feel comfortable trying to make that argument. But if a player like McMeghan comes in here and can actually make that argument, and make a good one, to boil it down to "i don't like this meta, i like suspect, vote for ban because i'm a well-known and respected player", to me, is ridiculous and unfair. If a valid argument can be made, as close to objective as an argument for/or against the brokenness of a mon can get, what separates the 2 arguments? Can I get an actual reason as to why, if there are legitimate reasons, we should not vote ban for a mon that has an unhealthy impact on the meta?

 

[tigers jaw]

keep in mind that i think megagross is broken (almost perfectly fits the latter 2 of your signifiers and arguably the first imo) and that he's the primary cause of what i deem to be an increasingly stale, boring, and frankly, bad meta. so my question is why? why should one who happens to maybe not agree with him being broken but agrees that he has a negative impact on the meta not vote ban? shouldn't we strive for a good, competitive metagame? aren't there certain standards for our tiers that we as a community aim to achieve? if the meta is legitimately better without megagross, why would you expect somebody to still vote no ban? why not make the action that would help cause a fun, diverse, and thriving metagame?

The part I've emboldened is something I have a real problem with during suspects, and especially during this one. Here's a tip: diversity is not good for this game, and you cannot complain about matchup issues on one hand, then on the other promote diversity and increasing the number of viable Pokémon in a meta.

Maybe it's down to a difference in "ideologies" (kinda makes a game seem like a bigger deal than it is tbh), but I don't see how increasing the amount of threats to prepare for, be it offensive or defensive, creates a more competitive meta, and I have no idea where this backwards thinking comes from.

I know this is kinda off-topic, and to be honest, I don't care what happens to Metagross, because I'll always play Mons Meta or no Meta, but it's something I feel needs addressing because it seems like nobody ever stops and thinks "wait, why should more things be viable? Why is that a "healthy" meta?". I guess it comes down to preference, and what people think is fun, and I guess experimenting with a bunch of different things can be fun, but it certainly isn't competitive.

Also I'm editing this in really quickly: there is no such thing as "objectively broken" lol. Can people stop saying this.

 

[trillyntruly]

perhaps you misunderstand. i do not believe that banning megagross will suddenly make more threats appear, like mons from UU and stuff will suddenly become viable (sure there will be certain mons that will be more viable after his absence, if he goes), but by diverse i mean a metagame that allows for a plethora of creative teams utilizing the threat-list as much as possible. when a mon is such a heavy weight on your teambuilding, it prevents you from being creative (or at least, as creative) with the choices already available to you in the meta. it's not that i want the threatlist to get bigger, it's that i want to be able to freely and creatively utilize the already existing threatlist, and i want my fellow players to have the same freedom. as far as matchup issues go, late XY in my opinion was a very good example of a thriving metagame. teams were creative, there was a constant stream of innovation, mons that were already in the tier were much more useable, and most high-level games i saw, weirdly enough, did not suffer particularly badly from the matchup issue. most games seemed to be roughly equally winnable on both sides unless your matchup was utter shit. in this meta it isn't like that, the same cores are being beaten into everyone's brains, the matchup issue is terrible, i'm rarely coming up across interesting or unique sets, and team composition is entirely predictable. pokemon is an ever-evolving metagame, it isn't SSBM, why would we want it to become stale and be a game where you can tell who wins just by looking at the team matchup?

 

[Jukain]

Yeah I want to add on to the idea that we are voting no ban because broken checks broken. The pro ban side is saying how unhealthy he is for the metagame, but when we say he is healthy for the metagame you say we are using faulty arguments. I can not speak for everyone but when I say metagross is keeping the metagame in balance, I do not mean he is keeping broken things in check. I think because metagross is getting compared to aegislash so much (which is stupid) he is getting a worse rep, aegislash was a broken mon that was keeping a BUNCH of questionable things in check. Metagross is just allowing for counter play within the tier, I mean people are acting like metagross just auto wins verse teams with a diancie on them, but no way in hell is metagross switching into an earth power which is standard on every diancie not to mention they have the same speed tier, so in a dire situation diancie could risk metagros having bullet punch(which is rare in my experience) and do about 70% which should be enough if metagross switched into any attack prior. I think people are way overstating his ability to switch into things, I mean EVERY single fairy carries a move to hit steels and you people are acting like metagross is the sole reason for that, there are plenty of steel types in OU that can keep fairies in check.

I wish I was more active in this discussion early on because it seems most people have given up talking about it at this point. But I mean even clefable can do about 50% to metagross with a flamethrower, and if there is a ferrothorn on the clefable team, metagross has to decide whether he wants to hammer arm the incoming ferro and risk just dying to clefable, or meteor mashing into a ferro. Metagross can not really OHKO any common core mons on balance and relies pretty heavily on prediction, also inaccurate moves(granted 90% isnt bad but it is noteworthy).

Honestly I dont think there is one fairy that metagross can switch into, specs sylveon is doing about 80-90% with shadow ball, clefable could twave or flamethrower, diancie has earth power, gard maybe although it could also have shadow ball. I am going to tag WebBowser because one of your main arguments was how many opportunities he gets to switch in(I think it was you sorry if not). But if you could maybe give a list substantial enough to warrant a ban, I would appreciate it because I hoenstly can not think of too many things metagross can switch into with ease(especially in base form).

From what I can gather a number of people want metagross gone not because he is broken but because it is one less threat to prepare for, which eases team building and is a more enjoyable meta(to some). If that is the criteria we should be using to vote then by that logic we could ban any mon in the A+ or S rank and the metagame would be better.

I do this every suspect test where I look at their matchup against common playstyles and see how they fare, I will be more brief than usual here. For offensive teams one of the most common cores to start around offense are scarf lando-t and manectric both of which are very good checks to metagross and can keep up momentum as to not give the opponent free turns, not to mention the double intimidate. If I had a metagross I would not like going up against that team. But there are other common HO mons like gengar, bisharp, garchomp, excadrill(in sand or scarfed), scarf ttar, gyarados, just to name the ones at the top of my head. Just because all of these arent considered "counter" does not mean they can not handle metagross in most situations. Then against balance it becomes a bit more of a toss up, there are mons like lando-t, hippo, slowbro, ferro, heatran, starmie, mega scizor that can all beat metagross 1v1 but can only switch in circumstantially, Metagross has a good matchup against most balance builds but does not seem uncompetitive or broken. Stall has rocky helm counter skarmory which can not only beat it 1v1 but punish it by going for attacks with rocky helm and since metagross has no recovery that is deadly, there are also other mons that can take a hit and twave or burn metagross.

Anyway maybe I am off base a bit, but I feel like the pro ban side is exaggerating his capabilities, so I have to counter it best I can. But let me also say that I would not mind if metagross got banned AT ALL because that means one less thing I have to prepare for and my mega venu team can reach its full potential. But even that team had no problem(well metagross was an issue but I could handle it) with metagross because I could hp fire it if it switched into venu, then switch to rocky helm slowbro and now metagross has just taken like 60-70% and slowbro can just switch to recover damage( I know this is requires prediction but honestly it goes both ways and I might as well be on the side of prediction that helps my case since it more or less is around 50% in either direction) The point being is that metagross does not seem to fit any defintion of broken or uncompetitive, which is why I am on the no ban side. But if we ban metagross on the premise that there are too many threats and it will make teambuilding easier, then where does it end?

'Allowing for counterplay in the tier' is the exact same thing as broken checks broken except with different wording and slightly altered meaning. You said that the Pokemon Mega Metagross keeps in check are not questionable or potentially broken and stated that this makes your argument is valid; however, this isn't the case. A Pokemon making it easier to manage certain Pokemon is not a valid anti-ban reason, as the potential brokenness status of those Pokemon is not a relevant distinction; this is still not banning a banworthy Pokemon for the sake of convenience and ease in teambuilding. There's a few reasons you could bring up for Mega Metagross not to be banned, but making it easier for teams to handle certain Pokemon is not one of them.

WebBowser already addressed the second paragraph in your post, so I'll just leave it at that and address the next point you bring up, which is the matchup of certain playstyles against Mega Metagross. What you're saying couldn't really be further than the truth. Mega Manectric + Scarf Landorus-T isn't exactly a top-of-the-line HO core in this metagame; in fact, this is more of a balanced core than anything as this is generally backed with hazards, a spinner, defensive pivots, etc. Gengar is not a Mega Metagross check when you consider that it only has a 50/50 shot to beat it in the first place. Bisharp doesn't even OHKO with Sucker Punch, fears switching into Hammer Arm and takes half from MMash anyways, and gives a free opportunity for the Metagross user to switch into their Keldeo or whatever. Sure you can be real and predict the switch with Pursuit, but this argument goes both ways as the Metagross user can just predict this with Hammer Arm. Scarftar is a terrible HO mon at all so I don't really know how it's relevant to HO dealing with Mega Metagross, but Crunch only even does ~70%, so it's not even consistent at revenge killing it. When you talked about balanced, you even said that the answers are circumstantial and unreliable, but then said that Mega Metagross doesn't 'seem broken' against the style, which doesn't really make sense when you consider that balance has a ridiculously hard time managing Mega Metagross in the first place.

What you said in your last paragraph about prediction helping your argument couldn't be further from the truth because, just as the opponent won't predict perfectly every time, there is no way you are predicting perfectly every time unless your opponent isn't skilled. This argument goes both ways and holds no water for either side, pro-ban or anti-ban. The point you end off with is a strawman because what pro-ban arguments are saying is that the metagame is saturated with major threats and Mega Metagross has a negative effect on the tier because it is insanely difficult to handle, moreso than other threats. It's also a slippery slope fallacy because there is no reason that we would ban threats for the sake of having less threats, and no one is suggesting that we do this.

The argument of the pro ban side is weak and I simply don't get the logic of why numerous people here are advocating for the ban of Mega Metagross.

When you want to ban a pokemon/ability/item or whatever, there's really only two questions you have to ask yourself.

1. Is it broken? (too blatantly good for the tier, ability to sweep/wall/support the team with minimal effort necessary, extremely centralizes the metagame)
2. Is it uncompetitive? (removes basic game mechanics, takes skill away from the game, makes games match up reliant, etc)

The vast majority of people here, even people on the pro ban side, believe that Metagross is neither broken nor uncompetitive. That's basically it, end of argument. If you want something to be banned, that thing should either be broken or uncompetitive, and Metagross is neither, which is why it should stay in OU. Obviously, if you do think it is broken, then you can vote Ban by all means, but the majority of players here believe Metagross really isn't considered broken.

No, I don't give a flying fuck whether you think the metagame is better without Metagross in it, and neither should you if you're voting to ban it.
No, I don't give a flying fuck if you think matchup is too big of a factor in the current metagame, and neither should you if you're voting to ban it. (Banning Metagross won't even remedy the matchup problem, its simply one less pokemon in the enormous pool of viable pokemon we have. Just make teams that are less prone to matchup if that's what your issue is here)

Mega Metagross isn't broken, nor is it uncompetitive, and those are the only two questions you should ask yourself if you want to ban something, so I'm voting NO BAN.

A Pokemon doesn't have to necessarily be broken or uncompetitive to be banned. Another qualifier for a Pokemon being banworthy is a negative effect on the tier. That's the entire reason Aegislash was banned. Was it broken in the traditional sense? Maybe, but that's not why it was banned. Aegislash was banned because it built the tier around itself, centralizing the tier to an unhealthy degree. While Mega Metagross causes nowhere near that degree of centralization, Aegislash is an apt comparison because the effect Mega Metagross has on the tier is negative. It is absolutely valid for Mega Metagross's negative effect on the tier and creating a worse metagame than one without it to be used as a pro-ban argument.

 

[Roxachronic]

perhaps you misunderstand. i do not believe that banning megagross will suddenly make more threats appear, like mons from UU and stuff will suddenly become viable (sure there will be certain mons that will be more viable after his absence, if he goes), but by diverse i mean a metagame that allows for a plethora of creative teams utilizing the threat-list as much as possible. when a mon is such a heavy weight on your teambuilding, it prevents you from being creative (or at least, as creative) with the choices already available to you in the meta. it's not that i want the threatlist to get bigger, it's that i want to be able to freely and creatively utilize the already existing threatlist, and i want my fellow players to have the same freedom. as far as matchup issues go, late XY in my opinion was a very good example of a thriving metagame. teams were creative, there was a constant stream of innovation, mons that were already in the tier were much more useable, and most high-level games i saw, weirdly enough, did not suffer particularly badly from the matchup issue. most games seemed to be roughly equally winnable on both sides unless your matchup was utter shit. in this meta it isn't like that, the same cores are being beaten into everyone's brains, the matchup issue is terrible, i'm rarely coming up across interesting or unique sets, and team composition is entirely predictable. pokemon is an ever-evolving metagame, it isn't SSBM, why would we want it to become stale and be a game where you can tell who wins just by looking at the team matchup?

Viabiliy is not dependant on usage(tough a lot of the times the best mons are the most used, but this is not always the case,Chesnaught which is compeltely viable in OU for example), I can be wrong but it seems you are implying that any non-OU mon is not currently viable, which is false.

Megagross is a great pokemon but this meta is filled with faster and scarfed mons, a lot of who can threat Megagross in practice, this is not the case when you use something like Magcargo to check a M-Mawile, Lando-T,Raikou,Serperior,Torna-T,Talonflame(The list has already been said like 20 times and somehow some people still say that there are not viable checks for it.)

I still think Megagross itself is not broken, but the current meta is filled with a lot of treats so preparing for everything is impossible, so I can see why some pro-ban want Megagross to be banned.

I would not say as high as to say you know who will win with a team preview, because that is false, tough teambuilding is some times a coinflip.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

I've been Anti-ban mostly for adding spice to the meta-game and trying my damn hardest to prevent this from just going all the way back to the XY meta-game where things got stale fast as hell and nothing interesting was being made. ORAS comes along and injects stuff into this meta-game and within a short amount of time we're already debating kicking out it's first major stimpak in the form of Metagross.

Honestly in my opinion late XY meta was quite good where there were many diverse threats and the meta was still developing. In return i think the current meta is quite stale and only semi enjoyable. I believe many other players would agree late XY was good also.

Honestly you hit the nail right on the head.

What I'm heavily afraid of is the chain of bans that happens AFTER him. People have been suggesting, "Oh, we'll just ban those too, like always show no mercy." and little do they realize we're heading down the road immediately to the same exact meta-game we had before ORAS came out. Literally the only difference between then and now (If we were to ban all the newest Mega-pokemon or pokemon with new moves) is:

Mega Sceptile is viable
Starmie is coming back thanks to Greninja being gone
Contrary Serperior is a thing

I believe at worst the only other megas to be banned after it would be Mega Diancie, and Sabeleye and even that is shaky.
In addition since XY we have also gained, mega beedrill, slowbro, lopunny, altaria, pidgeot, gallade, swampert, sharpedo, and latias. Also we got crunch gyarados, chestnaught with drain punch, knock off belly drum azumarill, punches on diggersby, and synthesis

Mega Metagross isn't broken, nor is it uncompetitive, and those are the only two questions you should ask yourself if you want to ban something, so I'm voting NO BAN.

I have to ask why.

No where does it say we should only vote on those above issues. The overall goal of suspects is to yes remove broken elements, but that is only to further the ultimate goal of making the meta enjoyable. I don't care if a meta is perfectly balanced, if it isn't fun, it isn't worth playing.

The MegaMetagross meta just is less enjoyable to me then the suspect meta. Yes there is an influx of fairies, but i'm also seeing some rise of poisons to counter this. Also like its been said if they become broken, they can be banned also.

MegaMetagross while not broken is quite centralizing. It has few counters and while several checks, it can beat them or weaken them for a teammate to sweep.
Overall metagross has a significantly negative presence on the meta and should be banned
For the record it is nowhere near as broken as greninja or megamence. Also I'm a primarily a stall player and have little trouble with gross, but the presence of gross makes not want to play other styles because HO I'm basically forced to run it b/c its so good and it wrecks most HO. On balance you have only a few different cores to check it with or use mega scizor which gets stale.

 

[Zebstrika]

The reason I don't like when people say they pick the more enjoyable meta is because the suspect meta always looks more diverse. When there's a direct change in the metagame (a ban or new pokemon), people will try out new stuff, and some of it will work, some of it won't, but for a few weeks, we'll see the stuff that doesn't work because people don't know any better (yet). Other people will stick to their old teams and they will probably need a handful of battles to see if it's outdated. So right now, of course the meta looks more diverse. People are still using all of their old strategies in addition to all the people trying new stuff. The only teams that people have quit using this soon in the metagame are the teams that used to have metagross on them, and those people are forced to make new teams, so even then you'll see some new creations from them.

There's also the fact that people are constantly making minor adjustments to their team, based on the metagame they see. Right now, people are spamming fairies because they see that there's one less check to them, and others are spamming other fairy checks because of this. Soon people will start using checks to the most common fairy checks, some already are (Magnezone and Heatran especially), and then people will run the best fairy checks that can get around their most common checks. Meanwhile, people will see other people's preparation for their playstyle, and adjust their team to that, and other people will adjust their teams in response, and that cycle keeps going.

Yeah you know what a metagame change looks like. They take time. It's possible that this suspect ladder meta, when it settles, might be better than the metagross metagame, but it's possible that when it settles it will be worse, and there's not actually any way to know except to keep the suspect ladder up for a couple of months.