np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

[Obesity]

It is very fast and still powerful, but in this metagame with inconsistent, and other very large threats, it definantly hasn't had a chance to shine. But I do not believe it will be uber after the banning of inconsistent, shaymin-s, Darkrai, and deoxys. Far too much can check it.

Scarf Skymin's Seed Flare does not OHKO. Deoxys forms HAVE to run Scarf to outspeed and kill Doryuuzu. Darkrai HAS to run a Scarf and use a Focus Blast to kill Doryuuzu. Darkrai and Skymin don't even have a chance to attack unless Doryuuzu is running an Adamant nature . Any Inconsistent Pokemon that comes into Doryuuzu will die, and even with a +2 Speed boost won't be able to outspeed. Other than Deoxys-A, who gets setup upon by Ghosts; Deoxys-S, who's using a very gimmicky set JUST to kill Doryuuzu; and Deoxys-N, who's rather outclassed by S and A, nothing you just mentioned really threatens Doryuuzu.

And even if it was banned, Sandslash can easily fill it's place, only losing to + speed base 105+ pokemon, and +2 pokemon (so it's not as good at revenge killing agility/rock polish pokes as dory). With an earth plate, it's earthquake rivals balloon dory's, and it's unboosted stone edge is stronger than doryuuzu's rockslide. It's coverage move is its only weaker move. However, it has increased bulk over the mole; no fighting and earth weaknesses really helps. As does not having to protect a balloon.

Losing a steel type isn't a bonus lol. Sandslash couldn't fill Doryuuzu's place because of Doryuuzu's niche: The fastest Pokemon in the game.

 

[Wafflez]

Well perhaps it won't be as effective as Dory.So what? That dsn't mean Sandslash cant take over that role if Dory is for some reason Uber'd.Its somewhat like Deoxys-N being a inferior Deoxys-A and if Deoxys-A gets banned N will take its place instead.

 

[UltiMario]

The problem with Dory is that it has to choose what it wants to be countered by.
Pass up Shadow Claw and get wrecked by Latis
Pass up Rock Slide and get wrecked by lots of fliers.
Pass up Brick Break and get wrecked by misc things (Balloon Dory, Terakion, some other stuff)
Use anything and get wrecked by Bronzong and Gliscor.

Yeah...

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Sandslash might be slower, but it hits harder than Jolly Doryuzu since it doesn't need Balloon and could afford Life Orb more often and you still need Choice Scarf 110+s to outspeed. And most important...NOT DYING TO PRIORITY. Even Choice Band Azumarill might not ko dealing a max of 89.35%. Plus you could use a stronger Stone Edge over Rock Slide (unless paranoid about accuracy) and pretty much has all of Doryuzu's moves. Doryuzu's steel typing isn't particularly effective for it most of the time and added the fighting, fire, ground weaknesses. It is useful to switching in on some dragon moves but being hit means you lose Balloon and one should try to avoid losing it.

 

[Obesity]

The problem with Dory is that it has to choose what it wants to be countered by.

Um.

Pass up Shadow Claw and get wrecked by Latis

Doryuuzu (252 EVs, +Nature, +2) X-Scissor vs Latias (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 142.8 ~ 168.7% (430 ~ 508 HP)
Doryuuzu (252 EVs, +Nature, +2) X-Scissor vs Latios (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 157.4 ~ 185.3% (474 ~ 558 HP)

Um.

Pass up Rock Slide and get wrecked by lots of fliers.

Um.

Pass up Brick Break and get wrecked by misc things (Balloon Dory, Terakion, some other stuff)

Doryuuzu (252 EVs, +Nature, +2) Earthquake vs Terakion (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 249.5 ~ 294.1% (806 ~ 950 HP)

Um.

Use anything and get wrecked by Bronzong and Gliscor.

Doryuuzu (252 EVs, +Nature, +2) Earthquake vs Bronzong (Heatproof) (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 235.6 ~ 277.8% (648 ~ 764 HP)
Doryuuzu (252 EVs, +Nature, +2) X-Scissor vs Bronzong (Levitate) (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 63.2 ~ 74.5% (174 ~ 205 HP)

Um.

Yeah...

Um.

What the hell are you talking about?

 

[shrang]

Steel-typing is in more ways a blessing than a curse. Sandslash can be Toxic stalled out by Skarm, while Dory can't be. It also gives you a truckload more resistance to switch in and set up on. Sandslash can also be outsped by stuff like Scarf Lati@s, which is a much more feasible revenge-killer than something like Scarf Deoxys-A or something like that IMO.

 

[UltiMario]

Doryuuzu (252 EVs, +Nature, +2) X-Scissor vs Latias (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 142.8 ~ 168.7% (430 ~ 508 HP)
Doryuuzu (252 EVs, +Nature, +2) X-Scissor vs Latios (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 157.4 ~ 185.3% (474 ~ 558 HP)

I didn't even both mentioning X-Scissor seeing as if you're running it, you should be running Shadow Claw instead. Seriously.

Doryuuzu (252 EVs, +Nature, +2) Earthquake vs Terakion (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 249.5 ~ 294.1% (806 ~ 950 HP)

Um.

That Balloon was meant to be included on Terakion, too. -_-

Doryuuzu (252 EVs, +Nature, +2) Earthquake vs Bronzong (Heatproof) (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 235.6 ~ 277.8% (648 ~ 764 HP)
Doryuuzu (252 EVs, +Nature, +2) X-Scissor vs Bronzong (Levitate) (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 63.2 ~ 74.5% (174 ~ 205 HP)

Um.

You'd need to still have Balloon left over to beat Zong. It'll just EQ you. Nobody runs Heatproof Zong.

...Seriously?

 

[Demoness]

X-Scissor has more power than Shadow Claw and hits more targets. I really fail to see the reason to run Shadow Claw at all.

 

[Chou Toshio]

X-Scissor is the shit

Also, Zong's weak-ass Earthquake can't OHKO dory lol

 

[Kevin Garrett]

I laugh at how people rely so much on Balloon to handle Doryuuzu. There are like two counters without it. Living proof of my argument. Don't say I didn't tell you so. It will be gone at some point. I was involved in the last generation from the beginning of the suspect process. There were more unlikely bans than this one that made the metagame better. Banning Doryuuzu (or Sand Streamers) at some point will make the metagame better.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Steel-typing is in more ways a blessing than a curse. Sandslash can be Toxic stalled out by Skarm, while Dory can't be. It also gives you a truckload more resistance to switch in and set up on. Sandslash can also be outsped by stuff like Scarf Lati@s, which is a much more feasible revenge-killer than something like Scarf Deoxys-A or something like that IMO.

Very true. The Toxic in particular. But aren't most Latios Specs because of the ridiculous power of Draco Meteor? Specs Latios is outrun but it can be risky yes. Scarf Deoxys is stupid and should never be run since it just begs death from a trapper who takes the hit afterwards and bashes it which is why it will never be seen. Doryuzu's speed is ridiculous but considering the ability to not be weak to priority or Earthquake (once Balloon is popped, Doryuzu has no item and is vulnerable again) and Sandslash's physical defense is amazing, it does offer some competition. And Mach Punchers and priortiy are more commen in general than Scarf Latis and Darkrai (watch out for Choice Scarf Shaymin-S).

 

[Focus]

In all my experience playing gen V, I cannot recall having faced a single sandslash. I will believe it is broken when I see it.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

I bet it's because most people aren't even aware Sandslash has Sandthrow and Doryuzu is a shining star and a new Poke. I wasn't aware Sandslash had Sand Throw until recently and with all the new pokes, it is hard to see that some of the old pokes got amazing abilities (cough *Inconsistent* broken, cough).

 

[Acritter]

Hmm... Sandslash might be worth trying out. The much higher physical defense and lack of Fighting weakness might make it (dare I say?) BETTER than Dory... only thing that could be problematic is Vacuum Wave, the much lower speed, and the 25% drop in Attack. Also, much easier for Ditto to revenge.

 

[Nashza]

I see Dory being a big problem in OU, but how does it stack up to other powerhouses of Ubers? with kyogres roaming around drizzling, it loses its status as the fastest in the game, and it'll be wrecked by boosted water moves in the rain. i'm far from being as knowledgeable as other members of smogon, so i'll jokingly ask if dory will have a BL tier of its own.

also, "!! kevin garrett is from my hometown!" pretty win.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

If it has Life Orb, Sandslash is stronger than Balloon Jolly Doryuzu, Doryuzu's most common item and nature. Vacuum Wave would also have been problematic (even more so) to Doryuzu.

It is unfortunately slower but if Doryuzu's Balloon is popped, Ditto works and once Ditto uses Earthquake, it is trapped if a Pokemon immune to Earthquake switches in (Balloon Shanderra).

 

[undisputed]

Guys remember, uber Pokemon are placed in that tier because they are too powerful for OU. Not because they are on par with Kyogre's strength.

Also, I could be wrong, but we no longer have a "characteristic of ubers list" or whatever we used to have to use. Essentially, we're are now trying to make OU a fun and competitive environment. If Doryuuzu is deemed by most players as a "nuisance" or hard to play around, then it will be banned. It's that simple.

I personally think Doryuuzu is way to hard to beat in a normal metagame. I will ban it shortly.

It's like a faster Metagross, but instead of being forced to use Rock Polish, Doryuuzu just starts out with one.

 

[Kevin Garrett]

I see Dory being a big problem in OU, but how does it stack up to other powerhouses of Ubers? with kyogres roaming around drizzling, it loses its status as the fastest in the game, and it'll be wrecked by boosted water moves in the rain. i'm far from being as knowledgeable as other members of smogon, so i'll jokingly ask if dory will have a BL tier of its own.

Uber isn't a tier meant to be balanced. It is a ban list and it doesn't matter how well or poor the Pokemon in it perform.

 

[sax king]

I see Dory being a big problem in OU, but how does it stack up to other powerhouses of Ubers? with kyogres roaming around drizzling, it loses its status as the fastest in the game, and it'll be wrecked by boosted water moves in the rain. i'm far from being as knowledgeable as other members of smogon, so i'll jokingly ask if dory will have a BL tier of its own.

Performance in Ubers shouldn't really affect the banning process

As for Dory, it's manageable. I've managed to create several teams that aren't completely destroyed by Dory, and I'm sure everyone else has. Dory can be walled by many mons. I understand that has counters =/= isn't broken, but Dory really isn't too bad. It has a larger amount of counters than people think. Without a swords dance, it's not overly powerful, and there are ways to bypass its speed (priority) or to remove the sand.

But as Kevin Garrett said, it is still quite possible that the removal of Dory will create a much more enjoyable metagame.

But hey, it's not like this is going to be the only suspect test ever. I propose keeping Dory now, seeing it in the new metagame we create, and determine whether or not it will be more enjoyable or not in that metagame.

After all, the banning process isn't based on whether the pokemon is broken, it's about creating a more enjoyable metagame.

 

[Gabe]

Agreed.... Dory should get one more chance, along with Politoed & Deoxys-A.

 

[Venser]

I personally think Doryuuzu is way to hard to beat in a normal metagame. I will ban it shortly.

Wait. What. Doesn't this need more...ummm...voting or something?

Also, ban Inconsistent before Doryuzuu. I think I speak for the majority of players in that they would rather run a Gliscor or something than pray against Inconsistent.

 

[shrang]

Guys remember, uber Pokemon are placed in that tier because they are too powerful for OU. Not because they are on par with Kyogre's strength.

Also, I could be wrong, but we no longer have a "characteristic of ubers list" or whatever we used to have to use. Essentially, we're are now trying to make OU a fun and competitive environment. If Doryuuzu is deemed by most players as a "nuisance" or hard to play around, then it will be banned. It's that simple.

I personally think Doryuuzu is way to hard to beat in a normal metagame. I will ban it shortly.

It's like a faster Metagross, but instead of being forced to use Rock Polish, Doryuuzu just starts out with one.

I'm quite sure you can still make reason with the characteristics, they are still very useful arguments to make. Even if people think it's a nuisance, they still need to substantiate themselves with sound arguments or they won't be able to vote.

I'd agree with the Metagross comment though. Basically, Metagross gets +2 Speed in one turn while Dory gets +2 Atk/+2 Speed in one turn.

 

[Nastyjungle]

I feel like more obvious suspects should be banned before people get on Doryuuzu.

 

[capefeather]

Doryuuzu's the kind of Pokémon who may very well not pay off, but when it does... WHOA. It may be placing an unhealthy amount of emphasis on weather control in the game. That said, I don't know if I want to think about Doryuuzu right now. No offense to people who want it banned because we ARE aware of its threat level and potential (maybe even present) detriment to the environment... but right now it's hard to focus on it as a bannable threat.

 

[Kevin Garrett]

Doryuuzu's the kind of Pokémon who may very well not pay off, but when it does... WHOA. It may be placing an unhealthy amount of emphasis on weather control in the game. That said, I don't know if I want to think about Doryuuzu right now. No offense to people who want it banned because we ARE aware of its threat level and potential (maybe even present) detriment to the environment... but right now it's hard to focus on it as a bannable threat.

I agree with this. I have been saying on IRC in every tiering discussion I'm involved in that you know the metagame is a clusterfuck when perpetually Uber Pokemon (such as Wobbuffet) aren't even in the discussion.