np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

[JSND]

SERIOUSLY can we stop talking about banning move crap ? What make this happen ?
- PEOPLE ARE TOO LAZY TOO ADAPT TO NEW SLEEP MECHANIC UNLIKE THEYRE EASINESS TO ADAPT WITH POWER CREEP CRAP thing .
- DV DOESNT INVOLVE LUCK TOO MUCH LIKE INCOS AND DT and other CRAP

i hate it when we just argue darkai without DV OMG BLAH3X it would just carry things too omg groudon without SR Twave EQ Overheat SD Roar DT isnt broken, or Lugia without CM and WW and Rec and Roost etc and its just stupid. Banning move (outside Evasion) is VERY stupid and what we call sliperry slope it just make us argue this that like we are having now and hindering our progress.

(AND we dont accept when other community say smogon is slow so it sucks ? why ? we actualy deserve THAT we slip ourself in this crap seriously i support their statement since this IS what happened now at least among those who argue this thing. Oh you think other community opinion isnt important since we are smogon not them ? SCREW THAT ELITISM AWAY)

Some comment

Rankurusu :

Pokemon this good is great but it doesnt do well against stall or heavy stall. Do you think stall is a team that all they can do is play like a coward by abusing entry hazard and Phaze every turn ? NO. Stall is a team that handles threats using defensive tactics and residual damage is to help them at messing their opponents play. So you say they need to use bandtar to kill ranky so it overcentralize and broken and influent too much ? well since when ranky and wobbuffet havent been a choice on stall team. Stall team isnt your usual Hippo/Skarm/Bliss/Gyara/Forry or cruel/ Perish team. Stall team is more complex than that. So what if ranky have magic guard ? attack it ! If our atatck is weak, use a viable heavy attacker or shut him down ! Thats all to face ranky making rank weaker than you thought against stall.

Drizzle :
lol politoed itself is sucks and thats big problem when used with entry hazard. The fact they use the most broken type in the game (water) help though even though water type itself have been nerved liek mad this gen

 

[666lumberjack]

I KNOW what a stall team is. It's my favourite playstyle and I shouldn't be penalised because of that. Curse/Perish Song are useless because no competent opponent is going to send it out last. You can Taunt it to stop it using recover, but unless you carry powerful SE moves on your taunter, 2 turns will run out before it dies. It FORCES you to run so-called Semi-Stall, thereby eliminating Heavy Stall as a playstyle. Running worry seed isn't an easy thing to do, seeing as it as no use outside of one Pokemon and likely costs a teamslot as well. Even ignoring the fact that the team stops being stall when you add in CBtar, you have to sacrafice an extremely valuable team member for it. The team would be ineffective without The Spiker, Spinblocker, Cleric and Anti-Met pokemon, which leaves two options. I lose a phazer, Stealth Rocker and Dragon Resist, or I lose a Lead, Status Absorber and Physical wall. Either one of those cripples the team as a whole.
Quoting Doug again:

...we should constantly strive for as much variety as possible. And, when limits to variety become apparent, the limits should be removed, if possible.

That pretty much states that it is appropriate to ban a Pokemon for limiting Variety, should it be that variety is increased with that Pokemon out of the way.

 

[domeface]

You're using circular logic. Let me rephrase everything that's been said.

• Spore, a better sleep move than Dark Void, is not broken.
• You said that due to the precedent of Soul Dew and Light Ball, where Soul Dew was found to be overpowered, but Light Ball not, that the same situation was present here due to the different pokemon with access to the move.
• I stated that Pikachu is so mediocre, as opposed to Latias, that the Soul Dew + Light Ball "precedent" doesn't apply, because Breloom is a powerful attacker, and not anywhere near as terrible as Pikachu.

The Soul Dew "precedent" doesn't apply, because Breloom isn't completely terrible, while Pikachu is. Therefore, due to Spore being a better sleep move than Dark Void, Dark Void is not broken.

This post is a bit old, but the point is that Lati@s >>> Pikachu. Similarly, Darkrai > Breloom. This makes Dark Void better than Spore by a similar means that Soul Dew is better than Light Ball - better distribution. Yes, the difference may not be so night and day as Latios and Pikachu, but Darkrai is a better Sleep abuser than Breloom. That's all that matters. Also, there's the tiny little difference that Justice Heart doesn't grant Dark immunity, so DV has no immunities and Spore does, so there's a tiny advantage to DV there. But the main point is that DV is better because it can be used by the best Sleep abuser.

 

[TLK]

Like we've said, run something that can do several things including counter Rankurusu. Spiritomb, as mentioned, acts as an excellent spin blocker and Rankurusu counter. You do have to modify your team so that if you were running a Burungeru, you'll need something to handle the threats that Burungeru handled, but that's the whole point of team building. See what you're weak to, and try and fix those weaknesses.

I've ran heavy stall before, and I've had no more problem with Rankurusu than usual, it's tough to take down - you're not going to have a Magic Guard user with recovery that isn't hard to take down, but it's definitely not bannable. Not by any stretch.

All playstyles have stuff they'll struggle with. Heavy offence, for example, really struggles with Kingdra in rain, or Dory in sand.

 

[JSND]

yup ranky isnt what make stall dead. Deo D and mew however suck stall ass over and over again and they arent broken.

Seriously Deo-D + Mew + hazard = gg stall(especialy those that dont use forry).

 

[fidgety]

ok finally got calcs asume +2 252 timid darkrai:
focus blast vs 252/252 evolution stone chansey:39-46%
focus blast vs 252/252 blissey: 48-57%
lo focus blast vs 252/252 evo stone chansey: 51-60%
lo focus blast vs 252/252 blissey: 63-74%
also remember fighting + dark provides perfect coverage. how is that healthy for the meta. it isn't. remember the entire goal of suspect testing is to create a healthy + enjoyable meta-game.
edit: before anyone gets nit-picky about oh chancey + blissey can status back that's where taunt comes in

this is y darkrai can't stick around.
edit: just because breloom is outclassed by darkrai doesn't mean it's meteocre

 

[TLK]

yup ranky isnt what make stall dead. Deo D and mew however suck stall ass over and over again and they arent broken.

Seriously Deo-D + Mew + hazard = gg stall(especialy those that dont use forry).

Well, I still think Mew should be tested at some point, although it's not really a priority since he's not as used as, say, Skymin. Once the more obvious guys like Darkrai and Skymin are banned, it'll be interesting to see how Mew does.

 

[666lumberjack]

I don't see how Deoxys-D or Mew are dangerous. They get badly poisoned switching in and then what? They Taunt? Neither has good attacking stats, so the can be played around pretty easily. Mind you, I run Forry for Tspikes and Spinning, so I suppose that might factor into it. I'm probably going to rebuild me stall team so I can test Spiritomb. I'll miss Desukan, but I guess that's life.

 

[TheAmazingFlygon]

SERIOUSLY can we stop talking about banning move crap ? What make this happen ?
- PEOPLE ARE TOO LAZY TOO ADAPT TO NEW SLEEP MECHANIC UNLIKE THEYRE EASINESS TO ADAPT WITH POWER CREEP CRAP thing .
- DV DOESNT INVOLVE LUCK TOO MUCH LIKE INCOS AND DT and other CRAP

i hate it when we just argue darkai without DV OMG BLAH3X it would just carry things too omg groudon without SR Twave EQ Overheat SD Roar DT isnt broken, or Lugia without CM and WW and Rec and Roost etc and its just stupid. Banning move (outside Evasion) is VERY stupid and what we call sliperry slope it just make us argue this that like we are having now and hindering our progress.

(AND we dont accept when other community say smogon is slow so it sucks ? why ? we actualy deserve THAT we slip ourself in this crap seriously i support their statement since this IS what happened now at least among those who argue this thing. Oh you think other community opinion isnt important since we are smogon not them ? SCREW THAT ELITISM AWAY)

Some comment

Rankurusu :

Pokemon this good is great but it doesnt do well against stall or heavy stall. Do you think stall is a team that all they can do is play like a coward by abusing entry hazard and Phaze every turn ? NO. Stall is a team that handles threats using defensive tactics and residual damage is to help them at messing their opponents play. So you say they need to use bandtar to kill ranky so it overcentralize and broken and influent too much ? well since when ranky and wobbuffet havent been a choice on stall team. Stall team isnt your usual Hippo/Skarm/Bliss/Gyara/Forry or cruel/ Perish team. Stall team is more complex than that. So what if ranky have magic guard ? attack it ! If our atatck is weak, use a viable heavy attacker or shut him down ! Thats all to face ranky making rank weaker than you thought against stall.

Drizzle :
lol politoed itself is sucks and thats big problem when used with entry hazard. The fact they use the most broken type in the game (water) help though even though water type itself have been nerved liek mad this gen

First of all, people aren't too lazy to adapt to the new sleep mechanics; the new sleep mechanics are simply ''broken''. Also, what you somewhat fail to understand is that Dark Void isn't broken and not for it doesn't involve luck, but for Darkrai, it's user, benefits too much out of it. The problem is Darkrai, not Dark Void.

 

[JSND]

deoxys-D screw every defensive wall in the game that not carryiyng SE move.
Burungeru with evil eye cant do much and they have fast taunt to beat most of usualy used stall member.

Remember. Its ISNT attack stats that hinder stall. Its movepool and how they work

Deo-D is notorious since it can stall most standard stall member pp especialy those that use Chansey intead of blissey. Along the way, he can Knock off lefties, taunt, recover and toxic stall making gyara the only one who can phaze him reliably and that can miss and DT has 8 use at max against him making him and even worse enemy against hail stall.
He can also take roughtly 54 PP of seismic toss and move that 3HKO him in general.
Basicaly hes a wall raper. Against common stall member he has an edge against
no attack skarmory, BB skarmory, Blissey, Chansey, Natts, Hippo, and many more. Hes an anti defensive pokemon.
Those who have easier time is :
Forry, Non attacking attacking Skarmory(counter etc), Ttar.
Hazzard play a role that when you choose switching to pp stall him, hazzard chip your HP easily making him very threatening.

Stalltwo(mew) is very dangerous. If they happen to carry bliss and a spinner, you need to do perfect switch in in the right time to defeat this thing. His combination of W-o-w, Roost and taunt mess stalling tactics that usualy used and if burungeru by some case toxic him, they have easier time spinning the hazzards. All he need to do basicaly just burn, taunt, heal, repeat. He force switch without him doing the ACTUAL
Phazing. Oh speaking about T-tar, he dont want to get will-o-wisp on the face making him a risky choice.

Mind you these 2 are a defensive set AND a defensive pokemon. These 2 when played correctly will beat stall easily unlike gliscor who cant beat full stall, this two beat full stall and semi-stall alike.

@ above : the new sleep mechanic isnt too broken. Sooo you have 3 turn max limit to wake up and you cant switch since it will reset. In previous metagame, If our memeber is sleeped, we usualy switch out and use it as meatshield that dont eat the counter. In playing wise, basicaly its just making gen 4's way to handle sleep a "build in" system than forced. In gen 4, a sleeping pokemon is a dead weight and wont be used anyway so its basicaly "dead" like most say in gen 5. Team preview gave us info on opponents team. Using this, sleep can be "taked advantage of" rather than say, a hindrance.

 

[alphatron]

The new sleep mechanics are far from broken. In Gen 4, when a pokemon of yours fell asleep, it became death fodder. You usully switched it out to avoid having it get set up on, and would only switch it back in to take hits for more important pokemon on your team. If your opponent was using a lead smeargle and you were using a cresselia somewhere on your team, you'd switch it in to take the sleep so that the rest of your team could avoid becoming useless for half the match. This has not changed at all.

So what if the sleep counter resets? Leaving your sleeping pokemon in battle was basically giving your opponent free turns for the last four generations of pokemon. You didn't leave a sleeping tyranitar in on breloom. You didn't let jumpluff subseed your gyarados into oblivion, etc. The maximum number of sleep turns was actually reduced this generation.

Now if a Venusaur uses sleep powder on your rotom-A in fifth gen, it's getting a free growth. In fourth gen, it would be getting a free sword's dance. In both generations, you would be switching to your venusaur counter in hopes of forcing that thing out. Or a durable phaser who could take a hit.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

Dark Void has immunities: Insomnia and Vital Spirit.

 

[fidgety]

@ above : the new sleep mechanic isnt too broken. Sooo you have 3 turn max limit to wake up and you cant switch since it will reset. In previous metagame, If our memeber is sleeped, we usualy switch out and use it as meatshield that dont eat the counter. In playing wise, basicaly its just making gen 4's way to handle sleep a "build in" system than forced. In gen 4, a sleeping pokemon is a dead weight and wont be used anyway so its basicaly "dead" like most say in gen 5. Team preview gave us info on opponents team. Using this, sleep can be "taked advantage of" rather than say, a hindrance.

dude you're thinking encore that got nerfed to 3 rounds not sleep. sleep is still 1-7 rounds as it has always been.

 

[Urbanism]

dude you're thinking encore that got nerfed to 3 rounds not sleep. sleep is still 1-7 rounds as it has always been.

You mean 1-5 rounds? I agree that the new sleep mechanics are broken, but I don't think it should be banned like everyone is suggesting.

 

[dragonmaster951753]

When one bans a pokemon, one should be banning it under its best set. Essentially, if a pokemon CAN be broken, it should be banned.

With Darkrai for example, its best set is DV/NP/DP/FB. If this set is broken, it should be banned, even if it has the ability to run weaker sets.

Looking at the banning of Garchomp in the 4th gen, one of its sets was found to be broken, therefore Garchomp its self was broken and it was banned.

Looking at a more obvious uber, Dialga, it would not be broken if all it could run was DragonBreath, however, it can run much better sets that are broken, therefore it is banned.

Essentially what I am saying is that if a pokemon is broken under ideal circumstances, it should be banned regardless of if those circumstances could be weakened. And by ideal circumstances I don't mean in battle circumstances like getting off multiple shell breaks and getting to +6 +6 +6.

I have to say this is the best arguement. No need to analyze if dark void was broken, the entire set was broken.

Slightly SN: If Darkrai could run spore, dark void would never be used, point being Dark void isn't broken, Darkrai is. I don't feel it is good to run a pokemon and saying it can't use one of its moves, if a pokemon can use a move that destroys a metagame, the pokemon is broken not the move. Smeargle can use nearly ever move in the game, yet it is never considered broken, so therefor if darkrai running dark void is broken, its because darkrai is, not smeargle. We don't need to test it without, it should just be banned and we should move on.

 

[B-Lulz]

Lol i'm so annoyed everyone who PM'd voted to not ban Drizzle, now we have to spend another period trying to ban this crap. Well done guys <_<.

 

[fidgety]

You mean 1-5 rounds? I agree that the new sleep mechanics are broken, but I don't think it should be banned like everyone is suggesting.

nope it's 1-7 i have the serebii status mechanics page up now, honestly a limited ban (75+ accuracy) would be enough.
@domeface:darkrai can't stay even w/ that i've posted what it can do to evo stone chancey as well as blissey multiple time go 2 previous pages + find them b4 you respond.
edit: if void is banned all that will happen is the standard set will run taunt in it's place which could make it even more dangerous in some respects cough*stall-breaking*cough.

 

[dragonmaster951753]

Drizzle isn't broken, if it is, I want Sandstream, Drought, and Snow Warning banned as well.

 

[fidgety]

Drizzle isn't broken, if it is, I want Sandstream, Drought, and Snow Warning banned as well.

if weather is broken i'll eat my cat.
not really.

 

[B-Lulz]

I'm not going to start this argument again, all i'm saying is more than 50% of players think that Drizzle is broken and not fit for competitive play. If you didn't have voting requirements, your opinion doesn't really bear much weight on it being banned. I think everyone agrees Rain is the best weather...

 

[fidgety]

I'm not going to start this argument again, all i'm saying is more than 50% of players think that Drizzle is broken and not fit for competitive play. If you didn't have voting requirements, your opinion doesn't really bear much weight on it being banned. I think everyone agrees Rain is the best weather...

take away manaphy maybe kingdra rain really get's ballenced look @ the po server w/o manaphy rain is almost genuinely ballenced.

 

[Forte.EXE]

Drizzle isn't broken, if it is, I want Sandstream, Drought, and Snow Warning banned as well.

Well aren't we lucky it isn't what you want, but the community as a whole.

take away manaphy maybe kingdra rain really get's ballenced look @ the po server w/o manaphy rain is almost genuinely ballenced.

Oh boy, here we go again. IT REALLY FEELS LIKE I'M 10 PAGES BACK AGAIN!

 

[TLK]

At least Inconsistent is unanimously gone.

Although why Dory is up for suspicion and not Kingdra is beyond me (both or neither, IMO).

 

[fidgety]

Well aren't we lucky it isn't what you want, but the community as a whole.



Oh boy, here we go again. IT REALLY FEELS LIKE I'M 10 PAGES BACK AGAIN!

for a first step banning drizzle as a whole is exceedingly radical.
+ courtesy of domeface try 15-20 pages.

 

[B-Lulz]

take away manaphy maybe kingdra rain really get's ballenced look @ the po server w/o manaphy rain is almost genuinely ballenced.

Why would I look at PO server for any kind of benchmark for what the metagame will be like in the future...