This is completely false.
We have played Wifi Ladder in beta server, without drizzle politoed, and mole wasnt broken at all.
Mole is just very overrated
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!
- Thread starter Philip7086
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We have played Wifi Ladder in beta server, without drizzle politoed, and mole wasnt broken at all.
Mole is just very overrated
Yeah that's all very true. Even if he ends up in UU/BL, I think he could still be a threat in OU.
@ubers in OU:
Well lugia seems one of the targets of talk so here's my two cents on him: no. You think nattorie is annoying? Much higher hp, pretty much the same defense, and much higher spdefense. Simmilar attack stats with better coverage. They both have twave. However, lugia has no quad weak that allows you to run hidden power and O/2HKO. Add a pusuit weak and take away steel resists, but also add instant recovery and screens. Nattorie walls a ton of pokes, lugia would be insane. And as I said, with one or so spots for an attack, it can be hard to set up on him too (edit: or use wirlwind). People yell power creep, but it hasn't been that much of a creep.
Yeah i dont see why if Poli is banned Dory must be too.
Rain give a +1 boost to stab moves and a +2 speed boost to swift swimmers at the same time, that is alot more than anything Dory or anything else has benefit wise from sand. :/
I still think Drizzle should be uber and not Poli however, if it is banned. It doesn't even make things complicated since by making Drizzle uber it applies to Kyogre too so yeah.
Rain give a +1 boost to stab moves and a +2 speed boost to swift swimmers at the same time, that is alot more than anything Dory or anything else has benefit wise from sand. :/
I still think Drizzle should be uber and not Poli however, if it is banned. It doesn't even make things complicated since by making Drizzle uber it applies to Kyogre too so yeah.
zapzap29
The obssessive man of passion
I think that Drizzletoed, Darkrai, Deoxys (Speed, Attack, Regular), and Skymin should be banned. I personally think Drizzletoed is centralizing because of the ridiculous boosts it provides it's team members. Rain teams have the power to turn every member of it's team into an overpowered sweeper. With Drizzletoed around you're basically forced to use a weather team to have any chance of victory.
Darkrai should be considered because of his ridiculous speed and access to Dark Void. While priority moves do exist, Darkrai is almost guaranteed to cripple or kill at least one pokemon.
The Deoxys forms except Defense should be considered for the high speed, access to priority, and potential to be mixed attackers. Unless you're running a sandstorm/hail lead or a scarf lead Deoxys-S will almost always set up stealth rocks and one layer of spikes. Deoxys-S can also set up both screens at the beginning of the game. Deoxys-A and regular Deoxys both have ridiculous speed, access to priority moves, and mixed attacker potential. The presence of Deoxys forces you to have either Wobbuffet or a Priority attacker simply to "counter" them. And even then the Deoxys forms don't have any true counters.
The last pokemon I think should be considered is Skymin. I think Skymin needs to go because of it's ability, speed, and special stat. Skymin is one of the fastest pokemon in the metagame right now and few things can take multiple attacks from it. Also, Serene Grace gives Skymin to take out many of it's "counters".
Lastly, on the whole Drizzletoed and Dory debate I have to say that Doryuuzu is good but not broken. There are several pokemon that check and counter doryuuzu. Rotom-W can consistently kill or cripple Doryuuzu. Slowbro can survive a +2 EQ from a Jolly Doryuuzu a hundred percent of the time at full health. Unaware Quagsire absolutely devastates Dory. More commonly seen pokes that can handle Dory are Roobushin, Randorosu, Skarmory, Gliscor, Nattorei, and Hippowdon. I have not seen a single poke that can absolutely check or counter Rain Boosted sweepers a hundred percent of the time.
That's all I have to say. I apologize if this is overly long.
Darkrai should be considered because of his ridiculous speed and access to Dark Void. While priority moves do exist, Darkrai is almost guaranteed to cripple or kill at least one pokemon.
The Deoxys forms except Defense should be considered for the high speed, access to priority, and potential to be mixed attackers. Unless you're running a sandstorm/hail lead or a scarf lead Deoxys-S will almost always set up stealth rocks and one layer of spikes. Deoxys-S can also set up both screens at the beginning of the game. Deoxys-A and regular Deoxys both have ridiculous speed, access to priority moves, and mixed attacker potential. The presence of Deoxys forces you to have either Wobbuffet or a Priority attacker simply to "counter" them. And even then the Deoxys forms don't have any true counters.
The last pokemon I think should be considered is Skymin. I think Skymin needs to go because of it's ability, speed, and special stat. Skymin is one of the fastest pokemon in the metagame right now and few things can take multiple attacks from it. Also, Serene Grace gives Skymin to take out many of it's "counters".
Lastly, on the whole Drizzletoed and Dory debate I have to say that Doryuuzu is good but not broken. There are several pokemon that check and counter doryuuzu. Rotom-W can consistently kill or cripple Doryuuzu. Slowbro can survive a +2 EQ from a Jolly Doryuuzu a hundred percent of the time at full health. Unaware Quagsire absolutely devastates Dory. More commonly seen pokes that can handle Dory are Roobushin, Randorosu, Skarmory, Gliscor, Nattorei, and Hippowdon. I have not seen a single poke that can absolutely check or counter Rain Boosted sweepers a hundred percent of the time.
That's all I have to say. I apologize if this is overly long.
Nattorei is a pretty solid stop to a lot of rain sweepers in fairness. HP fire is a bit counterproductive in rain, and won't even 2HKO I'd imagine.
But generally I agree, Drizzletoad, Darkrai and Deoxys would be the first ones that need testing.
lol I never thought Politoed would be Uber....
But really, Politoed should not be banned. Rain is a playstyle like anyother. Sure it gives boosts to its teammates, but rain is still beatable. Like TLK said, Nattorei is a pretty solid stop to most rain teams. In fact, the Burungeru Nattorei combo can stop most teams cold. Rain isn't broken (let's face it, we're not debating Politoed we're debating Drizzle), some of the pokemon in it are viewed as broken (though I disagree but w/e). People don't think Manaphy is broken because of the pokemon itself, people think it's broken because of the pokemon with rain support. Same goes for Kingdra, yet I doubt anyone's banning it. Kingdra is powerful because of the rain, not because Kingdra itself is so gamebreaking. Rain is a playstyle that people need to be prepared for. Just as a team needs to have a way to deal with stall or HO, a team needs a way to deal with rain. TBH, it's not too hard. As mentioned before, Nattorei stops most teams. Priority is a great way to get around Swift Swim, and everyone has priority this gen. Furthermore, all you need is a fast, powerful, scarfed mon with a Super Effective move. Although this may seem a little odd, but Scarf Jolteon is a great way to stop rain because of its high speed (higher with a scarf than most swift swimmers) and its STAB Thunder. Rain is in no way shape or form broken, therefore meaning that Politoed is in no way shape or form broken.
But really, Politoed should not be banned. Rain is a playstyle like anyother. Sure it gives boosts to its teammates, but rain is still beatable. Like TLK said, Nattorei is a pretty solid stop to most rain teams. In fact, the Burungeru Nattorei combo can stop most teams cold. Rain isn't broken (let's face it, we're not debating Politoed we're debating Drizzle), some of the pokemon in it are viewed as broken (though I disagree but w/e). People don't think Manaphy is broken because of the pokemon itself, people think it's broken because of the pokemon with rain support. Same goes for Kingdra, yet I doubt anyone's banning it. Kingdra is powerful because of the rain, not because Kingdra itself is so gamebreaking. Rain is a playstyle that people need to be prepared for. Just as a team needs to have a way to deal with stall or HO, a team needs a way to deal with rain. TBH, it's not too hard. As mentioned before, Nattorei stops most teams. Priority is a great way to get around Swift Swim, and everyone has priority this gen. Furthermore, all you need is a fast, powerful, scarfed mon with a Super Effective move. Although this may seem a little odd, but Scarf Jolteon is a great way to stop rain because of its high speed (higher with a scarf than most swift swimmers) and its STAB Thunder. Rain is in no way shape or form broken, therefore meaning that Politoed is in no way shape or form broken.
Incredibly disappointing that I have to reladder after getting 1400+. I'd also like to add that 1350-1380 is probably perfect for the cutoff, even 1400 is really difficult to hit (I've had games where my rating would go up 0 or down 30, and that was while I was at 1400 ranking, as #1. 1500 seems honestly unachievable. And I realize the cutoff will be changed, I just figured input would be nice).
As for suspect testing, about fucking time.
As for suspect testing, about fucking time.
I agree with everything said here, so +1 on this comment.
As more people become higher rated, achieving such a rating will be easier, but unless the goal was a very small pool of voters this is a lofty goal for three weeks of play.
Does anyone know the exact rating system PO uses? (maybe some form of Elo?)
Agreed, most rain teams usually rage quit when you take out their toad and change the weather on them. The thing is that most people are trying to run sandstorm which rain does a great job of countering, hence the "oh, ban that gay shit!" Toad isn't broken.
I agree. Last time I checked the ladder, only one player had a rating above 1500. Too high?
Also, on the topic of ubers in OU, I think that Ho-oh and giratina could be discussed. Groudon could be possible too, now that we have droughtales in OU. 100 hp/90 spdef/90 spe makes it laughably vulnerable to grass.
oh, and you can forget about lugia in OU. It has multiscale, base 110 speed and roost. I would have said hell yeah to a test before, but with multiscale? It seems way too powerful on paper.
Oh, and If we're going to ban skymin, we need to discuss banning togekiss and jirachi too. You can bitch about their flinch hax really easily too.
With the possible exception of air slash, skymin is outclassed by jalorda IMO.
BurningMan
fueled by beer
1. No DW Lugia doesn`t exists yet and it won`t be released that fast so we would talk about Pressure Lugia wich could be intresting to test (i still think it won`t go to OU)
2. Skymin won`t be banned only because of Flinch hax, but because of very fast sub seed+flinch hax+seed flare+ incredible speed and SpA.
3. And saying that Skymin is outclassed by Jarlorda is lol, first there is no DW Jarlorda yet and second Perversity Jarlorda got like 2 Special moves wich are Leaf Storm and Hidden Power wich leaves it easily walled by a lot of things depending on the HP it uses.
and wtf groudon in OU? its defenses are 100/140/90 yeah Grass types could hurt it but it still got 150/100/90 offensive stats coupled with one of the best abilitys in the game its IMO one of the clearest Uber Pokemon atm.
haunter
Banned deucer.
Togekiss and Jirachi are slower than Skymin and they both lack a move - Seed Flare - with an 80% chance of lowering the opponent's SpD 2 stages. They lack a sub-seed abuse tactic as well.
How exactly? Skymin has more SpA and Spe, way better type coverage and similar bulk. It's only real disadvantage is its Stealth Rock weakness.
I think the rating required for voting rights depends on how many people you want with them. If you want a small number of evidently excellent and engaged players, 1500 seems more or less appropriate, but if you want a bigger voting pool of good players, something closer to 1400 (which isn't the most difficult thing in the world to achieve) seems like the way to go.
Also agreeing with M Dragon, Doryuuzu is overrated and not broken at all.
Also agreeing with M Dragon, Doryuuzu is overrated and not broken at all.
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I think that if Politoed would be banned, Doryuuzu should be banned with it. I also think that either Manaphy or Politoed should move up to Ubers - Manaphy by itself is great, instant 100%+status recovery in rain makes it a monster.
I don't consider Deoxys-A to be Uber. But Darkrai and Skymin are definitely are. Here is m opinion why:
Darkrai: Sleep mechanics got changed this gen.,and this has only made it tougher for Darkrai to stay in OU. Excellent Speed, with a decently accurate Sleep Move make him difficult to counter. He can set up a Nasty Plot on the switch out once he puts you to sleep, and unless you have a faster Scarf mon, then Darkrai can utterly destroy your team. Darkrai can , and will, get +6 if you are not careful. After that, even Blissey and company can't stop Darkrai.
Skymin: What does Gamefreak do in Platinum? They give a Grass type 127 base speed, give it a Flying type, and Serene Grace, and AIr Slash, a STAB 120 BP move which sharply lowers Spl. Def......Troll GF.
With paralysis support, Skymin can hax its way through your team. STAB Air Slash, along with Seed Flare can decimate even Special walls. Add to this that ScarfSkymin is also becoming popular, and I think you know why the faster Serene Grace hax killer deserves to be Uber.
Darkrai: Sleep mechanics got changed this gen.,and this has only made it tougher for Darkrai to stay in OU. Excellent Speed, with a decently accurate Sleep Move make him difficult to counter. He can set up a Nasty Plot on the switch out once he puts you to sleep, and unless you have a faster Scarf mon, then Darkrai can utterly destroy your team. Darkrai can , and will, get +6 if you are not careful. After that, even Blissey and company can't stop Darkrai.
Skymin: What does Gamefreak do in Platinum? They give a Grass type 127 base speed, give it a Flying type, and Serene Grace, and AIr Slash, a STAB 120 BP move which sharply lowers Spl. Def......Troll GF.
With paralysis support, Skymin can hax its way through your team. STAB Air Slash, along with Seed Flare can decimate even Special walls. Add to this that ScarfSkymin is also becoming popular, and I think you know why the faster Serene Grace hax killer deserves to be Uber.
Okay:
Togekiss can use twave to outspeed and paraflinch. It can use its bulkiness and nasty plot to OHKO faster pokes, and air slash to stall out walls. It gets aura sphere and flamethrower too.
Jirachi has great defensive typing. It gets Iron head, which is more powerful and accurate than air slash. It hits more types SE too. It has a huge movepool to abuse with serene grace, and it's STABs are much more useful than skymins. It can run a mixed set too.
Skymin Vs. Jalorda: The speed difference is neglegible. The only notable pokes that sit between them are starmie and darkrai. They can both subseed effectively, but because Jalorda only needs to run leaf storm and hp, it doesn't get moveslot syndrome like skymin does. Crobat, aerodactyl and jolteon all outspeed both and hit super effectively too.
Shay can't run seed flare, air slash, earth power, hp fire/ice, sub and seed all at once. You're going to get walled by something.
Meanwhile, Jalorda only needs leaf storm, hp and sub. unlike shaymin, it can sweep reliably, and even subseed without hindering itself. Glare, twister, giga drain, torment, gastro acid, taunt, screens, swagger... Pick whatever you want for the last slot. Its 75/95/95 defenses are arguably bulkier, and it's lower hp has better synergy with leech seed.
Now, the STAB moves. Let's compare them:
Seed flare. 120 power, 85 acc, 5 pp, 80% chance to lower one pokes' spdef.
Leaf storm. 140 power, 90 acc, 5 pp, 100% chance to double Spa.
Can shay spare the turn spent using growth? Will you have sun up?
When jalorda attacks, it gets a free nasty plot thrown in. It's special attack is raised, meaning it can sweep an entire team with a boosted stat.
Kill something with seed flare drops and you're back to square one. No boost here.
Skymins' higher spa stat is irrelevant. If it has the time to use growth, it uses up a moveslot and gets 508 special attack. Jalorda just has to attack (pick off a weak opponent for example) and its special attack hits 498. attack again and you get 747. At +6, jalorda has 996 special attack. That's 3 turns just using its powerful STAB move. It's also high enough to render its tiny attacking movepool moot. Any neutral coverage move will destroy almost anything.
I'd like to see almighty uber shaymin pull that off. The only reason it was ever considered uber is the result of the hype its STAB moves caused. It's a legendary, it looks great on paper and it's clearly much better than it's land form, so it went to ubers.
It's really not that broken. There are much more threatening pokes terrorizing OU than shay.
My post is invalid because I'm comparing skymin to an imaginary pokemon?
They have plenty of similarities. Your post makes no sense. o_O
They have plenty of similarities. Your post makes no sense. o_O
haunter
Banned deucer.
yeah Togekiss can paralize and flinch to death but because of its average speed it's still rather easy to revenge kill. Skymin has 127 base Spe, speed definitely matters in this case.
What? Iron head hits for SE damage rock and ice types (and the latter are rare to say the least), flying hits grass, bug and the omnipresent fighting types (Roobushin is on pretty much every team I see on the ladder). And seriously, Jirachi's stabs useful?!? Other than that, Jirachi can be stopped by Magnezone and Heatran almost always, I can't think of a sure Skymin counter, instead.
ironically, Skymin may come in on Jalorda's leaf storm (quad resisting it) set up a sub on the switch out and proceed to flinch your team to death. I don't see any moveset syndrome, consdering that even things that resist the grass and flying combo can be 2hko'd ater a seed flare SpD drop. Skyimn's power is not serene grace alone, it's a combination of factors that makes it so broken.
it doesn't need to. And this argument appies to many other Pokemon. Without hp fire Giratina is walled by Scizor, without outrage it's walled by Blissey, does it make Giratina-O less borken? I don't think so. And anyway, as stated before, after a SpD drop many Skymin's "counters" will risk a 2-3 HKO, and hitting twice or three times without being touched isn't hard with air slash.
on the other hand, though, Jalorda can't flinch to death while healing from leech seed, and believe me, that's relly annoying.
most of the time Skyimin gains the equivalent of a NP boost by lowering the opponent's SpD with seed flare, so growth is not even needed.
eh, I believe it's funny that you say this. When we tested Skymin the last time, back in stage 3, you were not even a registered user here and, believe me, there were way more concrete reasons that caused its ban than "the hype its STAB moves caused". We don't ban things based on a hype.
probaly there are Pokemon stronger that Skymin in the current meta, but that doesn't mean that Skymin is OU material by any means.
OK, this wild theorymon is beginning to piss me off so I have to say something.
First of all, stop comparing Skymin to Togekiss and Jirachi. Togekiss isn't even a good OU anymore, and Jirachi is generally used as a utility counter, not an offensive threat. At some point, to be blunt, you're not even talking about real Pokémon anymore. Do you know why your comparisons don't work? It's partly because Skymin has both the flinching qualities of Jirachi and the offense-increasing potential of Jaroda.
Please, Skymin has BOTH Seed Flare AND Air Slash, and the former, if Skymin plans to spam it, will achieve the -6 more often than not (51.2%, so it's a lot like hoping for one of two Focus Blasts to miss). Jaroda can't flinch its enemies to death, and Jirachi can very rarely hope to break through stuff like Heatran because it can't screw over their defenses. You can barely afford a turn with Skymin, and Skymin abuses that very well using at least three very viable and very dangerous sets.
Skymin isn't broken? OK, you're free to argue that. But please don't make these heavily flawed comparisons to Togekiss of all things.
EDIT: Actually it's 31.4432% factoring in missing, which is still pretty significant when you won't even need to go for -6 most of the time.
First of all, stop comparing Skymin to Togekiss and Jirachi. Togekiss isn't even a good OU anymore, and Jirachi is generally used as a utility counter, not an offensive threat. At some point, to be blunt, you're not even talking about real Pokémon anymore. Do you know why your comparisons don't work? It's partly because Skymin has both the flinching qualities of Jirachi and the offense-increasing potential of Jaroda.
Please, Skymin has BOTH Seed Flare AND Air Slash, and the former, if Skymin plans to spam it, will achieve the -6 more often than not (51.2%, so it's a lot like hoping for one of two Focus Blasts to miss). Jaroda can't flinch its enemies to death, and Jirachi can very rarely hope to break through stuff like Heatran because it can't screw over their defenses. You can barely afford a turn with Skymin, and Skymin abuses that very well using at least three very viable and very dangerous sets.
Skymin isn't broken? OK, you're free to argue that. But please don't make these heavily flawed comparisons to Togekiss of all things.
EDIT: Actually it's 31.4432% factoring in missing, which is still pretty significant when you won't even need to go for -6 most of the time.
This thread is really disappointing me. Instead of looking for things to ban, why don't we talk about ways to beat potential suspects? There are lots of posts saying things like "Skymin is so annoying!"...Instead of that, why not suggest things like Zapdos and SpDef Skarmory that put up a great fight against it? There's a lot of complaining in this thread and not a whole lot of constructive posts.
Can we please change this attitude of "ban everything that seems good" before we ruin another gen? Sure, it's not our official policy, but this attitude definitely exists here and it is upsetting to say the least. We're a competitive community, we should be encouraging new pokemon and challenges to beat, not seeking to eliminate anything that might emerge as a powerful tactic.
In GSC, if this current community played it, Snorlax and Skarmory would have been banned. Probably Blissey too. In advance, Celebi would have been banned (omg i have to run hp bug to beat it! overcentralized!). Instead, they weren't banned and the players actually had to learn how to play against it. We've had a server for not even a month and people are already discussing like 10 pokemon that they want banned. Wtf? You haven't even had enough time to think of counters for it yet. Get some perspective. People have to learn the fact that there will always be centralizing pokemon in any tier...that's the entire point of tiers.
Can we please change this attitude of "ban everything that seems good" before we ruin another gen? Sure, it's not our official policy, but this attitude definitely exists here and it is upsetting to say the least. We're a competitive community, we should be encouraging new pokemon and challenges to beat, not seeking to eliminate anything that might emerge as a powerful tactic.
In GSC, if this current community played it, Snorlax and Skarmory would have been banned. Probably Blissey too. In advance, Celebi would have been banned (omg i have to run hp bug to beat it! overcentralized!). Instead, they weren't banned and the players actually had to learn how to play against it. We've had a server for not even a month and people are already discussing like 10 pokemon that they want banned. Wtf? You haven't even had enough time to think of counters for it yet. Get some perspective. People have to learn the fact that there will always be centralizing pokemon in any tier...that's the entire point of tiers.
I partly agree with jrrrrrrr here. There's a lot of suspect-listing here, but there hasn't been a lot of other talk. It's almost annoying to see a post listing suspects and not even saying anything about them. What's the point of the post, then? That said, the thread IS called "OU Suspect Testing", and it's understandable that people either don't want their "checks" to be ruthlessly theorymonned to oblivion or can't actually come up with a sufficiently reliable check.
pls man are we really comparing skymin to jaroda?it is obvious which is the most broken poke and because i see that u can't understand which one it is and instead u are making false statements,just go and play the game to see for urself and leave theorymoning aside...
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