np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

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This was quite possibly the dumbest post in this entire thread. Do you even play gen 5 OU? Have you ever used Rayquaza? Rayquaza in OU is
laughable. The rest of your post is also blatantly wrong.
Normally I would say PK Gaming was being an ass.........

But if you think Rayquaza is OU you are a fucking idiot. Lucario is OU and is essentially a crappier version of Rayquaza with less valuable STABS. Seriously, go suffocate your brain again.

Scarf Jirachi stops all three sets of Rayquaza.
Again stupid post. "LOL, SCARF GLACEON OHKOES GARCHOMP/MENCE/RAYQUAZA."


Seriously, there are so many reasons why that is a stupid thing to say. Can Jirachi survive a Fire Blast? Can Jirachi survive a +2 EQ? Can it switch in safely on Rayquaza?NO. Rayquaza has no counters in OU.
 

lmitchell0012

Wi-Fi Blacklisted
Because we do suspect tests more than once per generation. When/if those come out we will test them. But they are not out and are not relevant for this particular round of tests/bans.

And even if we did only have one round of bans per generation, there's no way the community would sit still and wait 1-2 years for everything new to come without a balanced metagame. Smogon wants instant gratification.


Not everyone here is as impatient as you think. Personally, I'd rather wait until we have all the information until we start doing anything. If that means that we have months of "possibly broken" pokemon wreaking havoc in OU, so be it. At least we won't have any unnecessary bans.

That's just my personal opinion, though.



You took the words right out of my mouth.
 
What's the Mix set? What EVs are we assuming for each attack? Nature? We can't say "this set kills Pokemon X" without defining the set.
 
@Imitchell0012

I obviously can't speak for everyone. But how many people do you know who would rather wait for Grey to come out than do more suspect tests? I think I speak for the majority when I say that multiple rounds of this, which is what we've done before, is better than not even trying to balance the metagame.

Also, take your thoughts out of my quote. Or at least bold them.

Also, the bans wouldn't be unnecessary because we would re-test them when all the new stuff gets released. You are acting like we won't do a thing when the third game comes out. And you are wrong.
 

lmitchell0012

Wi-Fi Blacklisted
@Imitchell0012

I obviously can't speak for everyone. But how many people do you know who would rather wait for Grey to come out than do more suspect tests?

I think I speak for the majority when I say that multiple rounds of this, which is what we've done before, is better than not even trying to balance the metagame.
Well, there's at least one person here who agrees with him. A minute ago you were quoting Gabe.
 
Most members dont want to have to deal with stuff that may be broken in the meta. What we could do is ban stuff, and then have their appeals and testing afterwards.
 
You can't use prediction as an argument, because it goes both ways. I can just as easily predict you will Fire Blast or Earthquake and not switch in and just kill Ray on the revenge kill. Oh yeah, and unlike scarf Glaceon, Scarf Jirachi is actually viable.
 
Standard mixed set seems to be 40 Atk/252 SAtk/218 Spd with either Naieve/Rash Nature and
-Draco Meteor
-Fire Blast/Overheat
-Extremespeed
-Brick Break/Outrage

399 SAtk (+Spd) ohkoes min/min Jirachi with Fireblast and most Polemon get 1-2 hit koed by it's moves. The only way to hope to beat it is to outspeed it since unlike the boosting ones, you can't hope to Encore (Dragon Dance, it is impossible to Encore the Swords Dance Extremespeed) and it will be aiming to hit HARD right off the bat. Extremespeed is still useful to take out weakened Pokemon and Brick Break/Outrage prevents Blissey although Brick Break is better to hit Heatran since Blissey would be insane to try to fight Rayquaza and it prevents Dual Screens.
 
You can't use prediction as an argument, because it goes both ways. I can just as easily predict you will Fire Blast or Earthquake and not switch in and just kill Ray on the revenge kill. Oh yeah, and unlike scarf Glaceon, Scarf Jirachi is actually viable.
Explain how Jirachi is going to take out every set of Rayquaza. Also explain how you expect every team to carry a Jirachi for this purpose.
 
Also, Choice Scarf Jirachi can only switch on a Mixed Draco Meteor ONCE. Without Wish, switching into two Draco Meteors will KILL min min Jirachi.
 

SJCrew

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You can't use prediction as an argument, because it goes both ways. I can just as easily predict you will Fire Blast or Earthquake and not switch in and just kill Ray on the revenge kill. Oh yeah, and unlike scarf Glaceon, Scarf Jirachi is actually viable.
Um, ok? Scarf Jirachi is incredibly easy to wall. I don't care if you get in once and force my Rayquaza out once, I still have my Rayquaza ready to go while you have your half HP Scarf Jirachi that can't even switch in on Rayquaza again, or much of anything else for that matter.

And that's like, the only example of something viable that can switch in on Ray and not die to the next move. What's next? Scarf Metagross? Scarf Magnezone? Random Scarfed Steel types are not Rayquaza counters since they can only switch in on 2/4 of his moves and they die if they try to come in the next time.

I mean, it's bad enough with the Dragons we have now, but now you guys want one that's even stronger, cancels weather, and has priority? Are you guys fucking crazy?

We need to lay down the banhammer pretty hard before we even think about letting more Pokemon into OU.
 
Well, there's at least one person here who agrees with him. A minute ago you were quoting Gabe.
I put the wrong person down. If you took your words out of my wuote, I could simply quote you. But I had to improvise due to the terrible formatting of your post. Relax.
 
Scarf Jirachi can just Ice Punch Ray for the KO.

@Fluffy Otters: That's the problem with all counters. The Pokemon they want to counter can just switch out. Under your logic, people shoudn't have counters because they can just switch out.
 
@TheAmazingFlygon

We wouldnt be removing it from just one pokemon, it would have to be a blanket ban. It is just like removing double team, and soul dew. If nothing is allowed to use it then I really see no problem with it being ban. We would have more opitions (which is good for the metagame) and the ban would be simply and easy to understand. As for the manaphy thing, yes you couldn't remove rest from just it, but if rest made every pokemon that had it broken they we could and should ban it.
 
Scarf Jirachi can just Ice Punch Ray for the KO.

@Fluffy Otters: That's the problem with all counters. The Pokemon they want to counter can just switch out. Under your logic, people shoudn't have counters because they can just switch out.
Yeah, when you switch in that Jirachi I'll switch in Magnezone, trap your ass, and Rayquaza will have his way with your team.
 
Scarf Jirachi can just Ice Punch Ray for the KO.

@Fluffy Otters: That's the problem with all counters. The Pokemon they want to counter can just switch out. Under your logic, people shoudn't have counters because they can just switch out.
I don't believe I said that. The problem is in switching in. That is where there ARE NO counters for Rayquaza, it is impossible since you'll always lose something, maybe even more than one to find out what it's set is and even hoping to revenge kill.
 

supermarth64

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@Agent123 How does that stop Rayquaza from making a huge dent with its moves? It has to come in somehow in order to actually THREATEN it with Ice Punch, which is either after a KO or on a resisted move, and even then there is a possibility that prediction will go against you and he'll Fire Blast for a dead Jirachi.
 
You switch Scarf Jirachi in on Draco Meteor and outspeed for the KO. I doubt Ray is so powerful it could KO Jirachi with a Not Very Effective Draco Meteor.
 

SJCrew

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Switching in on Draco Meteor once is not killing Rayquaza. Naming one counter and forcing it out once doesn't mean "OK, balanced", as that Pokemon is still at high risk of being KOed itself on the switch-in and if you do manage to soak up that Draco Meteor, I can switch Ray out and do it again. Where are your counters now? Ray can repeatedly come in and kill things every turn it's in, especially with a priority move under its belt.
 

Chou Toshio

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@Fluffy Otters: That's the problem with all counters. The Pokemon they want to counter can just switch out. Under your logic, people shoudn't have counters because they can just switch out.
The deal is whether that counter is useful in wider situations, and whether it is able to take advantage of the turns it forces enemies out.

For instance, in Gen 4, Venusaur could switch in and counter just about any bulky water set-- any Swampert, Vaporeon, or Suicune. Despite this, Venusaur was almost nowhere in OU, while bulky waters were prolific. Why wasn't Venusaur used? Why were Celebi and Shaymin only mid-level OU pokemon at their very best, while bulky waters kept usage equal to over a fourth of the OU metagame? Because Grass was largely useless in the face of the rest of the metagame (with Heatran and other steels everywhere) and had no real way to take advantage of the turns it forced a bulky water type out.

On the other hand, Nattorei succeeded where other bulky grass types failed in past games. Why? Because Spikes and Stealth Rock give it ways to ensure it produces results, and gains your team real advantage every time it comes in.

That is what makes having a counter competitive or not.

Jirachi can switch into and force out many enemies with Ice Punch-- but then what? What does it do to progress the team? What does it do to harm the enemy team? With Nattorei everywhere, Scarf Rachi coming in to spam Iron Head or Ice Punch will hurt itself more than the enemy more often than not! Add Wobb and Zone to the mix, and you have a pokemon that faces even bigger problems than the aforementioned venusaur example.


Also, the same 252 atk / 252 spe Scarf Rachi can only switch into Latios' Draco Meteor and force it out once. Now you want to talk about Rayquaza?
 
So you bring Jirachi in after a KO. Rayquaza switches out.
When he comes back in, you wait for him to KO someone then bring Jirachi back in. Rayquaza switches out.

ScarfRachi doesn't counter because it can't switch in on Ray. If it can only come in after a KO, then Ray will get a lot of KOes.




Ive actually already become so bored with the meta, sand and rain has pretty much ruined it for me.
I can haz random post?
What does this have to with anything?
 
So you bring Jirachi in after a KO. Rayquaza switches out.
When he comes back in, you wait for him to KO someone then bring Jirachi back in. Rayquaza switches out.

ScarfRachi doesn't counter because it can't switch in on Ray. If it can only come in after a KO, then Ray will get a lot of KOes.





I can haz random post?
What does this have to with anything?

Just saying how over centralized sand and rain have become. It gets pretty lame playing the same two play-styles over and over.

Edit: Is PO down? I keep getting a message saying connection refused?
 
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