np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

[SlimMan]

Just saying how over centralized sand and rain have become. It gets pretty lame playing the same two play-styles over and over.

I know. But that was completely out of the blue. We're all saying that Ray is still Uber, and then chime in about sand and rain.

I'm not mad, but....
Do you think they're broken? (Hint: the correct answer is no.)

 

[Chou Toshio]

With uber long threads like this, often people will have things to say that often has little to do with the on-going discussion. It's just a part of how these threads work.

 

[Obesity]

Standard mixed set seems to be 40 Atk/252 SAtk/218 Spd with either Naieve/Rash Nature and
-Draco Meteor
-Fire Blast/Overheat
-Extremespeed
-Brick Break/Outrage

Rayquaza vs Top 10 Most Used Pokemon in Wifi (December 11, 2010 stats)

1. Nattorei;
Rayquaza outspeeds and OHKOs Nattorei with Fire Blast.

2. Tyranitar;
Brick Break is a clean OHKO. If Brick Break is not being run, the next most powerful move is Draco Meteor which is a 90% chance to OHKO without hazards.

Rayquaza@Life Orb (40 EVs, Neutral Nature) Brick Break vs Tyranitar@Choice Scarf (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 112.6 ~ 132.5% (384 ~ 452 HP)
Rayquaza@Life Orb (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Draco Meteor vs Tyranitar@Choice Scarf (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 97 ~ 114.3% (331 ~ 390 HP)

3. Scizor;
Any fire type move OHKOs. Scizor's Bullet Punch only gets a 1% chance to OHKO.

Rayquaza@Life Orb (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Fire Blast vs Scizor@Life Orb (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 324.5 ~ 382.9% (912 ~ 1076 HP)
Scizor@Life Orb (252 EVs, +Nature) Bullet Punch vs Rayquaza@Life Orb (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 43.5 ~ 51.2% (153 ~ 180 HP)

4. Doryuuzu;
Outspeed after Air Lock and Fire Blast OHKOs.

Rayquaza@Life Orb (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Fire Blast vs Doryuuzu@Balloon (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 149 ~ 175.6% (538 ~ 634 HP) (Sandstorm)

5. Gengar;
Draco Meteor OHKOs, Outrage OHKOs, Fire Blast is a 42% chance, Overheat is a 90% chance...I'm not even going to copypaste the stats we all know Gengar is frail as hell.

6. Garchomp;
Garchomp outspeeds and OHKOs with Outrage, and Dragon Claw if stones are up. Stone Edge is a 36% chance with stones up. Rayquaza cannot 2HKO with Extremespeed.

Garchomp@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Outrage vs Rayquaza@Life Orb (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 121.9 ~ 144.1% (428 ~ 506 HP)
Garchomp@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Dragon Claw vs Rayquaza@Life Orb (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 82 ~ 96.2% (288 ~ 338 HP)
Rayquaza@Life Orb (40 EVs, Neutral Nature) Extremespeed vs Garchomp@Choice Scarf (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 31.9 ~ 37.8% (114 ~ 135 HP)

7. Roobushin; (Most used set is Adamant/Brave - EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 SDef)
Rayquaza outspeeds and OHKOs with Draco Meteor. Nothing else OHKOs though, and -2 Draco Meteor doesn't OHKO. Roobushin OHKOs back with Guts boosted Stone Edge, also a OHKO without Guts boost if rocks are up.

Rayquaza@Life Orb (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Draco Meteor vs Roobushin (120/136 EVs, Neutral Nature): 102.3 ~ 120.4% (390 ~ 459 HP)
Roobushin (252 EVs, +Nature) Stone Edge vs Rayquaza@Life Orb (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 78.6 ~ 92.8% (276 ~ 326 HP)

8. Heatran

Brick Break doesn't OHKO. Returning Dragon Pulse doesn't OHKO. Rayquaza wins this.

Heatran (252 EVs, +Nature) Dragon Pulse vs Rayquaza@Life Orb (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 67.2 ~ 79.2% (236 ~ 278 HP)
Rayquaza@Life Orb (40 EVs, Neutral Nature) Brick Break vs Heatran (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 60 ~ 71.2% (194 ~ 230 HP)

9. Burungeru;

Nothing Rayquaza has can OHKO Burungeru. Burungeru's returning Ice Beam can OHKO if Rocks are up.

Burungeru (4 EVs, Neutral Nature) Ice Beam vs Rayquaza@Life Orb (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 75.2 ~ 88.8% (264 ~ 312 HP)
Rayquaza@Life Orb (40 EVs, Neutral Nature) Outrage vs Burungeru (252/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 81.9 ~ 96.5% (331 ~ 390 HP)

10. Politoed

Same situation as before. Rayquaza cannot OHKO Toed, and Toed OHKOs after rocks.

Rayquaza@Life Orb (40 EVs, Neutral Nature) Outrage vs Politoed (252/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 81.2 ~ 95.5% (312 ~ 367 HP)
Politoed (4 EVs, Neutral Nature) Ice Beam vs Rayquaza@Life Orb (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 78.6 ~ 93.4% (276 ~ 328 HP)

That's 6/10 Rayquaza can kill. Three of those that he can't OHKO rely on rocks and are pretty wrecked after Rayquaza is done.

 

[shrang]

Can we stop talking about Rayquaza being pulled down?? It never will be, so stop dreaming.

This thread is a place to discuss the current metagame and potential suspects. Not to discuss which Pokemon should be moved down (which defeats the point of us even voting on a pre-ban list.)

 

[Barilzar]

I know. But that was completely out of the blue. We're all saying that Ray is still Uber, and then chime in about sand and rain.

I'm not mad, but....
Do you think they're broken? (Hint: the correct answer is no.)

Not so much broken, but they clearly do outclass any other play-style. Baton pass, hail, or even sun can hardly compete with them.

and lol at Ray being OU.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Many top players still use stall or semi-stall (based around pokemon like Blissey, Gliscor and Nattorei). If you haven't faced such teams, I'm in doubt as to whether you are really playing the top players. :/

 

[Obesity]

Can we stop talking about Rayquaza being pulled down?? It never will be, so stop dreaming.

How about you spend more than 10 seconds on a post and explain why it won't happen. The original starter of the Rayquaza debate had solid points backing up his argument. "It won't happen HURRDURR you're an idiot" isn't a rebuking. It's not even an insult.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

With Stealth Rocks, Burungeru can be 2 hit koed by Draco Meteor, even after -2. And they probably won't expect you to stay in with -2. You outspeed and kill before Recover. Even with Max hp/SDef, Burungeru dies to 2 hits of Draco Meteor with Stealth Rock.

Politoed with Max hp, no SDef (why that spread? If you're investing in hp, you might as well have defense as well) is ohkoed by Draco Meteor with Stealth Rock.

Fuck, Draco Meteor 1-2 hit koes EVERYTHING. Again, it is ridiculous. And it will LOVE to switch in on Mach Punchers, Aqua Jetters that are roaming around everywhere.

 

[SlimMan]

With uber long threads like this, often people will have things to say that often has little to do with the on-going discussion. It's just a part of how these threads work.

Was that joke? "uber long threads" xD

Anyway, that is true. Typically though, I've seen 3 or 4 "mini-discussions" going on at once. Not solitary posts...
But does it really matter? lol

Not so much broken, but they clearly do outclass any other play-style. Baton pass, hail, or even sun can hardly compete with them.

and lol at Ray being OU.

I disagree. I think most people use it because they stick Politeod, Kingdra, Manaphy, Kabutops, Ludicolo, and Nattorei together and call it a team. It's an easy and simplistic playstyle which is why so many people are drawn to it.

That said, it's not ineffective, but those players willing to do lots of hard work/thought can use other playstyles to just as good effect as rain/sand. It's the most common, but don't mistake most abundant for most viable.

 

[Chou Toshio]

From my experience on the ladder, strict Rain/Sand teams have been what many "average" players use. The higher you go (the stronger players you play) the less likely you will face something like the rain team described above. You might see Hippow or Ttar on a team that has Doryuuzu to clean up, or you may see a stall team that has manaphy and politoed included, but it won't be a dedicated sand/rain build-- just a very strong team that has some ability to abuse weather to clean up if the opportunity presents itself.

 

[Barilzar]

I disagree. I think most people use it because they stick Politeod, Kingdra, Manaphy, Kabutops, Ludicolo, and Nattorei together and call it a team. It's an easy and simplistic playstyle which is why so many people are drawn to it.

That said, it's not ineffective, but those players willing to do lots of hard work/thought can use other playstyles to just as good effect as rain/sand. It's the most common, but don't mistake most abundant for most viable.

Thats kinda my point though, any jackass can put one of those teams together and do well on PO.

From my experience on the ladder, strict Rain/Sand teams have been what many "average" players use. The higher you go (the stronger players you play) the less likely you will face something like the rain team described above. You might see Hippow or Ttar on a team that has Doryuuzu to clean up, or you may see a stall team that has manaphy and politoed included, but it won't be a dedicated sand/rain build-- just a very strong team that has some ability to abuse weather to clean up if the opportunity presents itself.

I agree, and maybe im just irritated about my losing streak. It just gets old seeing the same old crap.

 

[shrang]

How about you spend more than 10 seconds on a post and explain why it won't happen. The original starter of the Rayquaza debate had solid points backing up his argument. "It won't happen HURRDURR you're an idiot" isn't a rebuking. It's not even an insult.

I think it's quite self-explanatory on why Rayquaza will never be OU. If you think JT Swift made good points on backing his argument, you need to play more. He was told to "lurk more" by Haunter and other mods before and has made stuff like "Let's let Groudon and Giratina loose into OU as well". Whatever, since you think I'm not putting in the effort to argue with you, you asked for it. Here's the original post:

Rayquaza in OU

We all know him. Great 150/150/90 offensive stats, and reasonable 105/90/90 defenses. Air lock, extremespeed, swords dance. But could he be viable in OU?

No way, you say. He's too powerful! He has everything! He's the best dragon in the game!

Nice witty intro, moving on

I feel that, unless he's running a mixquaza set, he's largely outclassed by the other OU dragons, who can do what he does with higher speed, more specialized abilities and better typing. Vague statement, I know. Let's delve a little:

Outclassed by WHAT, exactly??

Base 95 speed is faster than dragonite and kingdra, and ties with kyurem. Everything else outspeeds him. This is important to note when considering a DD set. It also renders outrage an extremely risky maneuver, leaving him a sitting duck to a faster draco meteor or ice beam. While this may not have been a huge problem for dragonite in the past, it's an undeniable flaw. You can't argue Extremespeed as a solution either. Without a +2 boost, It can't OHKO many bulkier opponents who can threaten you. Just ask Deoxys-A. You can opt for the SD set, but you're now checked by non-scarved pokes. If you want to invest in attack and speed, you just make it easy for heatran and nattorei to heckle you.

Base 95 Speed is good enough in OU, especially with Dragon Dance. It really doesn't matter that Outrage is risky, the fact that +1 Outrage OHKOs 95% in the game, barring resists. Even Skarm takes ~45% from Outrage, and if you switch into Fire Blast or something, you're gone. This is when Dragon Dance, in my opinion, is Rayquaza's worst set anyway.

What would he do in OU? If you want a dragon dancer, you're better off with mence. BulkyDD? Dragonite, gyara or ttar. Mence does mixed faster too. A physical SD set is better handled by garchomp, bar extremespeed. Special set? Sazando can use a scarf or cheer up set with STAB dark pulse, u-turn and half the ice weakness. Kyurem has... Well, he has frozen world. Speed issue solved on the switchin!

*sigh*, Mence is better at DD than Rayquaza. Part of me agrees, since I'd always use Mence over Ray in Ubers if I want a DD set, but never forget that Rayquaza can kill more things than Mence can with his suped up Attack (30 extra Attack is actually a lot). "Mence doing mixed faster" is also eh. Have you forgotten or are you just ignorant on how much harder MixQuaza hits than Salamence?? If you think MixMence is hard to switch into, I don't know how the hell you're switching into Mixed Ray. Scarfed Jirachi, everyone's "favourite" Rayquaza "counter", takes 48.25% - 57.02% from Draco Meteor, meaning you are switching in ONCE. You can aim an Ice Punch at it, and get trapped immediately while Ray can just come in again later DM something else or kill Jirachi.

Ray has a possible niche with air lock, SD and extremespeed.

lol POSSIBLE niche. I seriously wonder if when you typed those you have EVER played Ubers. If you think Lucario is deadly with Swords Dance and insane priority, don't even think about how much Rayquaza does. +2 LO Extremespeed OHKOs stuff like Palkia, who for OU is actually reasonably bulky. Seriously, Rayquaza can probably take out 5/6 Pokemon on an OU team with SD and Extremespeed ALONE, while the other Pokemon can be taken out with a single prediction of using Fire Blast or something.

A lot of his counters already exist. He'd fit right into the current OU metagame IMO. Worth a test at the very least.

If you can name me ONE counter to Rayquaza, I will applaud you.

DISCLAIMER: I'm kinda tired, so I'll be back tomorrow to go over the stuff I missed and explain that stupid thing I probably said somewhere.

So yeah, don't tell me to expand on my arguments, I will expand them when I feel they are necessary.

 

[Obesity]

With Stealth Rocks, Burungeru can be 2 hit koed by Draco Meteor, even after -2. And they probably won't expect you to stay in with -2. You outspeed and kill before Recover. Even with Max hp/SDef, Burungeru dies to 2 hits of Draco Meteor with Stealth Rock.

Politoed with Max hp, no SDef (why that spread? If you're investing in hp, you might as well have defense as well) is ohkoed by Draco Meteor with Stealth Rock.

Fuck, Draco Meteor 1-2 hit koes EVERYTHING. Again, it is ridiculous. And it will LOVE to switch in on Mach Punchers, Aqua Jetters that are roaming around everywhere.

On a mobile so gonna make this short. The calc only shows EVs and natures relevant to what's happening. The were no special atks so the spa and spdef EVs weren't shown. The spread was 252/252 hp/spdef for Toed.

 

[Chou Toshio]

So here's a left-baller question: So Eccentric Ditto has been released by GF now? It is allowed on the main ladder?

 

[SlimMan]

So here's a left-baller question: So Eccentric Ditto has been released by GF now? It is allowed on the main ladder?

Sadly... no.
Don't I wish, though.

 

[Kevin Garrett]

I've skimmed through this thread and see way too many people suggesting a ban on Politoed in addition to or in place of a ban on Manaphy. Are you people serious? I hope the vote doesn't come down to that. There is absolutely no reason to ban Politoed in the initial stage. Manaphy is the obvious suspect with auto-rain status immunity and +3 Tail Glow. Without Manaphy, there isn't much that can wipe out everything in Rain. Can someone give a real reason why you would ban Politoed before Manaphy? Last time I checked, Rain Dance is still a TM and Damp Rock is still an item. It also is an additional check for Sand abusers like Doryuuzu.

 

[shrang]

I've skimmed through this thread and see way too many people suggesting a ban on Politoed in addition to or in place of a ban on Manaphy. Are you people serious? I hope the vote doesn't come down to that. There is absolutely no reason to ban Politoed in the initial stage. Manaphy is the obvious suspect with auto-rain status immunity and +3 Tail Glow. Without Manaphy, there isn't much that can wipe out everything in Rain. Can someone give a real reason why you would ban Politoed before Manaphy? Last time I checked, Rain Dance is still a TM and Damp Rock is still an item. It also is an additional check for Sand abusers like Doryuuzu.

You can't forget all the other rain abusers. At the moment, I've been using Choice Specs Kingdra and it absolutely destroys things. Without rain, it is still very powerful but is quite manageable, but in the rain, the only Pokemon that can properly counter it are Chansey and Blissey, while Nattorei can serve as a one-time check. I've had many matches where I've just swept with Kingdra spamming Surf. Yes, you could also suggest to ban Kingdra if it is too powerful in the rain, but I think this may be creditting to the fact that Politoed isn't just making Manaphy out of control, but possibly other Rain sweepers too (I might play around with the other Swift Swimmers for further testing, I guess).

 

[SlimMan]

You can't forget all the other rain abusers. At the moment, I've been using Choice Specs Kingdra and it absolutely destroys things. Without rain, it is still very powerful but is quite manageable, but in the rain, the only Pokemon that can properly counter it are Chansey and Blissey, while Nattorei can serve as a one-time check. I've had many matches where I've just swept with Kingdra spamming Surf. Yes, you could also suggest to ban Kingdra if it is too powerful in the rain, but I think this may be creditting to the fact that Politoed isn't just making Manaphy out of control, but possibly other Rain sweepers too (I might play around with the other Swift Swimmers for further testing, I guess).

I've used SpecsDra, but I don't think I used it correctly, because I found it to be disappointing.

Every Kingdra I've faced has been quite manageable. Even if one set could destroy the metagame, if it's not currently doing so then you can hardly say it's breaking OU. It's broken, but it's not being broken.

I personally don't find rain to be broken. On the other hand, I haven't played the top players yet. But do they even use rain teams? I doubt it.

P.S.- SpecsDra dies to MH pokemon. A Stun Spore or Thunder Wave pretty much ruins him. Not that they counter him because they can't switch in. I'm just throwing that out there.

 

[Kevin Garrett]

You can't forget all the other rain abusers. At the moment, I've been using Choice Specs Kingdra and it absolutely destroys things. Without rain, it is still very powerful but is quite manageable, but in the rain, the only Pokemon that can properly counter it are Chansey and Blissey, while Nattorei can serve as a one-time check. I've had many matches where I've just swept with Kingdra spamming Surf. Yes, you could also suggest to ban Kingdra if it is too powerful in the rain, but I think this may be creditting to the fact that Politoed isn't just making Manaphy out of control, but possibly other Rain sweepers too (I might play around with the other Swift Swimmers for further testing, I guess).

Kingdra is less broken than Doryuuzu, but I don't see Hippowdon and Tyranitar on the top of peoples' ban lists.

 

[SlimMan]

Kingdra is less broken than Doryuuzu, but I don't see Hippowdon and Tyranitar on the top of peoples' ban lists.

I think that it's because Hippo/TTAr were already OU, and Politoed is OU for its ability.

I disagree with that philosophy. But I am guessing that that is people's reasons.....

 

[shrang]

Kingdra is less broken than Doryuuzu, but I don't see Hippowdon and Tyranitar on the top of peoples' ban lists.

I know this, but apart from Doryuuzu, what does Sand make really overpowered?? The only one I can think of at the moment is Randorosu, while you have Garchomp being annoying but not really broken (At least not broken with Sand being the primary reason). Politoed, on the other hand, makes a whole bunch of Pokemon really powerful, whether they are overpowered yet is up to the voters, I guess, but Manaphy and Kingdra are definitely overpowered in my opinion, while others haven't really giving me an opinion since I haven't used them yet.

 

[SlimMan]

I know this, but apart from Doryuuzu, what does Sand make really overpowered?? The only one I can think of at the moment is Randorosu, while you have Garchomp being annoying but not really broken (At least not broken with Sand being the primary reason). Politoed, on the other hand, makes a whole bunch of Pokemon really powerful, whether they are overpowered yet is up to the voters, I guess, but Manaphy and Kingdra are definitely overpowered in my opinion, while others haven't really giving me an opinion since I haven't used them yet.

I've actually found Kabutops to be a bigger threat than Manaphy. But that's probably just my particular team.

 

[Kevin Garrett]

If it turns out Politoed makes too many things broken, then it could be considered for a ban. But why not ban the biggest suspect in Rain and then re-evaluate the situation? The relationship between the different kinds of weather is too interwoven to just remove it without taking out the broken abusers.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I agree with pretty much everything Kevin has said. *squak* parrot noise

edit: Also Philip7086 says that we're philosophically a-OK to ban Abilities so fuck off noobs neener neener neener [/tattle-tale brat voice] lol

 

[SlimMan]

I agree with pretty much everything Kevin has said. *squak* parrot noise

edit: Also Philip7086 says that we're philosophically a-OK to ban Abilities so fuck off noobs neener neener neener [/tattle-tale brat voice] lol

If I agree with you, does that make me agree with KG? Because I think you're right.