np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[tehy]

Skarmory wins 90% of the time for me;you just have to be smart about it. Flinchhax CAN occur, but it's got to be a lot. It's all about prediction mindgames, though.

 

[Shurtugal]

1: Ninetails/Politoad: Excadrill switches out, Tyranitar comes back in. Your weather inducers can't take a 2nd hit later.

2: Hitmontop loses. End of.

3: Why do you think Gliscor is #4 on the ladder?

4: Dusclops kinda sucks, and it has to take two Earthquakes, so will be completely crippled.

5: Skarmory is only a check. It takes an attack as it switches in [Good Excadrills will not EQ while Gliscor/Skarm are around], it then takes another as it Whirlwinds.

If Skarm brings in something it can't Roost on, gg, because it won't get a second chance. Flinchax is a possibility to.

6: 2HKO'ed on the switch

7: 2HKO'ed, and, Air Baloon?

8: Sableye can't switch in, and Will-O can miss, so you shouldn't rely on it.

9: Rotom-W loses to Return, and X-Sissor and Rock Slide do numbers on it too. Hydro Pump could also miss.

10: Conkel cannot switch in, and Mach Punch can't OHKO without a Band/Guts boost.

11: Sand is up, so how does Sashape survive to Mach Punch? Also, hazards. Also, how does he switch in?

12: Can't really switch, in, is blatently obvious about what it will do, so you switch out.

13: Can take any hit. Once. It cannot switch in. If it tries to revenge, Excadrill switchs out

14: Can't switch in.

15: When are you getting to set up two Cotton Guards? Also X-Scissor, and what can you do back?

So, basically, those 'checks' and 'counters' you described... 90% of them can't switch in, and all but one is a shaky check at best. [Gliscor] Some of them aren't checks at all, such as Dusknoir. Also, none of them stop Excadrill going away, and coming back in later once the obstical has switched out. Oh look, that's a 2nd mon you've had to sac! Then a 3rd!

1.) you switch in to ninetails (unless predicted there is NO REASON to switch in to T-Tar, and who can predict that?!) NInetails outspeeds, excadrill switch to t-tar, now USE YOUR TEAM TO SLOWLY KILL HIS

2.) Dusclops has pain split, and I am sure People do not mind crippled clops if it means they can kill Excadrill.

3.) Skarmory can play around it with spikes

4.) Gliscor can OHKO it (if not air balloon, it canNOT run x-scissor AND return, so some of these counters fo better depending on his set.)

5.) Rotom-W{: X-Scissor and rock slide cripple it, NOT KILL IT. Will-O and Hydro CAN miss, you can get a crit, HAX IS NO REASON FOR BANNING. So, lets say for arguements sake, that there is no hax in the match. X-Scissor or Rock Slide, Hydro Kill, next!

6.) Conkeldrr would just eat the earthquake and Drain Punch + Mach Punch. He swords dances?!! Even better.

7.) Bronzong can levitate his ass, and gyro ball hit balloon (IF ANY) and EQ for the OHKO (or 2HKO?)


Excadrill can always switch out, THATS THE FUCKING POINT. You sweep everything untill he only has Excadrill left. Wheres the switch now? Especially if hes a late game sweeper, theres really nothing to switch to. You can't use that for every viable counter, (oh he cant beat it, ill switch and he magically dies and exca can come back?!)

One cotton guard buddy, +3=3-4HKO on regular balloon Excadrill. 2-3HKO on LO adamant (if they run X-Scissor, they might now even have it). Taunt=NO Swords Dance. Leech Seed forces switch, momento if hes the last pokemon or gigadrain stall.


Latios/Laias/Celebi/Rotom-W/Umbreaon/Reuniclus can work around him if lacks the X-Scissor.






Basically, your saying I can't play around forcing Excadrill out and cornering it?
We need some experts here not people who want to ban something b/c they can't deal with it -____-

 

[tehy]

5: Skarmory is only a check. It takes an attack as it switches in [Good Excadrills will not EQ while Gliscor/Skarm are around], it then takes another as it Whirlwinds.

If Skarm brings in something it can't Roost on, gg, because it won't get a second chance. Flinchax is a possibility to.

Or, it roosts on the second rock slide. LO versions do about 66 damage, which isn't much, AND you're getting stalled out anyhow. Balloon versions do much less, so it's easier to brave bird them in the face and phaze them on an SD. Then it's a stallwar. If they lack rapid spin, constantly get down spikes. If they SD as you switch in, you can always smack them around with whatever move.

 

[Rosey Oak]

Excadrill has a lot of counters, checks, which is why he remains in OU. Let me list them all.

1.) (Politoed/Ninetials)
- Ok, I agree that these two Pokemon are reliable checks. Although I think we can both agree that what makes Excadrill so deadly in the 1st place is it's combination of massive power and super speed under SS. - Politoed and Ninetales automatically eliminate this speed threat with their abilities and hence become reliable counters to Excadrill.

2.) Hitmontop
"- Should be able to take a hit, especially if you pull off an Intimidate. Close Combat, Mach Punch? Sure he can switch out, but you can't ban a Pokemon off other Pokemon teamed with it. Its your job as the trainer to play around his team and take out Excadrill."

Actually Hitmontop cannot live Excadrill's EQ at plus one - (it does 102% on average). The only way Hitmontop can check Excadrill is to use it's tech ability plus LO. Otherwise it will lose to Excadrill. (Usage - 1.6%)

3.) Gliscor
- OK I agree that this is one of the most common and reliable counters to Excadrill.

4.) Dusclops
(+2) Excadrill vs 0HP/252Def Impish Dusclops:
1st turn
Excadrill EQ / Dusclops WoW (75% acc)
810 Atk vs 596 Def & 221 HP (100 Base Power): 147 - 174 (66.52% - 78.73%) / Avg - 71.95%
2nd turn
405 Atk vs 596 Def & 221 HP (100 Base Power): 75 - 88 (33.94% - 39.82%) / Avg - 36.65%

Dusclops will be 2KO'd no problem with 0EVS in HP. If Max HP/Def then Excadrill will do 55% on average with EQ. So assuming it does EQ on the 1st turn and assuming Dusclops burn hits on the 1st turn, then Excadrill can SD again on turn 2. On the very same turn (turn 2) Dusclops can pain split to survive the next hit from EQ. This will leave both Pokemon at 233HP. Both Pokemon will live the next hit, assuming both use EQ. Excadrill being first to attack the next turn, will be victorious. Oh and if WoW missed that first turn Excadrill will 2KO Dusclops with EQ.

5.) Skarmory
Yes, Skarm can counter Excadrill but really all it can do to it is fire of a measly Brave Bird attacks or force it out with Whirlwind. Hmm a temporary solution I guess, but I suppose sooner or later one will die from team mate damage or Hazards.

6.) Dusknoir
I've already explained how Dusclops fails against Excadrill.

7.) Donphan
Is two KO'd by (+2) Excadrills EQ. Assuming Excadrill is holding balloon, Donphan cannot check Excadrill.

8.) Sablye
WoW has a shaky 75% acc and if you miss Excadrill will be OHKOing (impish nature max HP/Def after one SD). If you hit with WoW, Excadrill can still 2KO Sableye so meh unless you get really luckily I wouldn't refer to Sableye as a reliable Excadrill counter.

9.) Rotom-W
(+2) Excadrill Return vs Rotom-W 0HP/0Def:
810 Atk vs 250 Def & 241 HP (102 Base Power): 237 - 279 (98.34% - 115.77%) / Avg - 106.22%
(+2)Excadrill Retrun vs Rotom-W 252HP/252Def Bold:
810 Atk vs 344 Def & 304 HP (102 Base Power): 172 - 203 (56.58% - 66.78%)

Rotom-W needs to be at least EV'd in HP in order to with stand a (+2) Excadrill's Return. However a (+2) Excadrill's return will always 2KO a Rotom-W even if it's EV'd in both HP and Def. Therefore your are relying on a 80% Hydro Pump or a 75% WoW to hit for Rotom-W to be called a reliable Excadrill check.

10.) Conkeldur
Doesn't check it. Excadrill will OHKO Conkeldurr on average after SD and Conkeldurr fails to OHKO Excadrill with mach punch (even with iron fist ability).

11.) Infernape
SashApe can close combat and mach punch FTW. Matter of playing around his team. It works well when your opponent doesn't predict the sash and kill.
Ok so I can pretty much list any sash Pokemon as a reliable Excadrill counter >.< .... no just no.

12.) Azumaril
Ok it checks it but it's only used 1.6% of the time.

13.) Swampert
(+2) Excadrill's EQ vs 252HP/0Def Swampert:
810 Atk vs 216 Def & 404 HP (100 Base Power): 403 - 475 (99.75% - 117.57%) / Avg - 107.92%

Well if your using the standard set then pert isn't a reliable Excadrill counter. Meh but if you want to use pert and invest EV's in def then ok I guess you can call it a counter. (Although pert will be just about as good as dead afterwards.)

14.) Suicune
(+2) Excadrill 2KO's 252HP/252Def Bold suicune with EQ no problem. Whilst cune fails to OHKO Excadrill (doing 79.78% on average with surf). Therefore cune is not a reliable check.

15.) Whismicott
Well this Pokemon can leech seed and out stall practically every sweeper, so meh yes I guess Excadrill will fall to it just like everything else.

16.) Alakazam - Sash
Meh ok if u put sash on it, but this to me is like saying all balloon pokemon are reliable counters to Excadrill =/ (which they are not) and anyway, Focus Blast has a 70% accuracy which is not reliable and Hidden Power Fire only does 67% on average to Excadrill.

 

[Eggbert]

If Exca isn't the last poke, than yea, skarm is usually enough to keep phazing it / breaking the balloon so it takes hazards. Exca has ways of getting past Skarm via LO flinch, which can 2HKO skarm with a pinch of residual damage, or being the last poke with enough health. Generally skarm will win but it isn't completely reliable.

 

[tehy]

Lo flinch is lol, they have to get retardedly lucky and they'll probably die before that. The LO rapid spinners can stop you from spikespamming on them, but then they take lots of damage from spinning too.

Last pokemon isn't a big deal-just have a pokemon that can take one exca attack unboosted and get it ready as the last pokemon. I do it all the time. The only way for that to happen anyhow is for exca to constantly run when skarm comes, which means you get to cause all kinds of havoc with spikes set up and phazing. THat means you've got a large advantage, and then you can use that.

 

[Eggbert]

30% is pretty likely actually. LO + RS is a pretty bad combo, rs should only be used with balloon.

Yea I can see that working with a stallish, jelli / hippo team. I do the same thing, just with offensive checks that can beat it if it isn't boosted like Reuniclus or Virizion or just balloon or multiscale.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Ok, believe it or not, having Excadrill in OU is actually really good for hyper offense. It severely limits the number of scarfers in OU to pretty much Politoed, Rotom, Terrakion, and Landorus, only the latter two of which are dangerous to hyper offense. It is also pretty easy to beat under screens since it can't OHKO anything not weak to EQ and you also have stuff like Reuniclus, balloon Lucario / Terrakion. Reun is excellent for special HO, and Terrakion for physical. Lucario for both. Either way, Excadrill "destroying" HO doesn't make it broken.

I do think Excadrill is broken, but that is besides the point. Gliscor is a really bad counter as if balloon exca gets to 4+ Gliscor will need to be at like 85% to win, not to mention 30% flinch (garchomp 20%) Skarm loses 1v1 and to flinch. The WoWers honestly suck. 25% chance of missing, 30% chance of getting flinched, and exca can also just SD again KO three things before dying. Exca has no solid counters, only checks.

Excadrill is good for HO? Since when? It forces HO to use Air Balloons. Remember that every Balloon Pokemon except Lucario has a chance of getting flinched by Rock Slide, and even so Lucario's offensive capabilities without Life Orb are limited so Balloon Luke should only be used to give your team a way to check Excadrill.

 

[Eggbert]

"It severely limits the number of scarfers in OU to pretty much Politoed, Rotom, Terrakion, and Landorus, only the latter two of which are dangerous to hyper offense"

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

"It severely limits the number of scarfers in OU to pretty much Politoed, Rotom, Terrakion, and Landorus, only the latter two of which are dangerous to hyper offense"

That's the thing though, Terrakion and Landorus are actually somewhat common.

You should also consider that Excadrill outspeeds every single scarfer in the game (except Deoxys-S but who uses that with scarf) under sandstorm.

My point was, the amount of viable scarfers in the game doesn't matter when Excadrill can outright destroy HO.

 

[Eggbert]

Excadrill isn't a big deal if you have screens and the proper team to deal with it. Virizion, Reuniclus, Balloon Terrakion / Lucario, Multiscale Nite, ect can beat it without screens, Latios, Gyarados, Scizor, many more can check it under screens.

Terrakion and Landorus again aren't the biggest deal unless you are taking SE hits from them. The idea is to look at team preview and play the sweepers that they can't check so well first, or even sweepers that can tank a hit from them under screens.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Excadrill isn't a big deal if you have screens and the proper team to deal with it. Virizion, Reuniclus, Balloon Terrakion / Lucario, Multiscale Nite, ect can beat it without screens, Latios, Gyarados, Scizor, many more can check it under screens.

Terrakion and Landorus again aren't the biggest deal unless you are taking SE hits from them. The idea is to look at team preview and play the sweepers that they can't check so well first, or even sweepers that can tank a hit from them under screens.

Screens aren't the most reliable way of dealing with Exca.

If you have to rely on using Scizor with Reflect up to beat Excadrill, you probably need to do some revisions to your team.

 

[Eggbert]

That was just one example :( Recently I've been using Terrakion with ballon as a decently solid check, Virizion, and even multiscale nite if desparate. They don't even need screens to beat it, screens just stops it from revenging you sweepers

 

[Challenger]

1.) you switch in to ninetails (unless predicted there is NO REASON to switch in to T-Tar, and who can predict that?!) NInetails outspeeds, excadrill switch to t-tar, now USE YOUR TEAM TO SLOWLY KILL HIS

-How exactly? A legitimate question. I recently suggested that people cite actual battle data after making these types of claims so we can all see the results. This would be a good opportunity to prove this point. Give me a play by play scenario.

2.) Dusclops has pain split, and I am sure People do not mind crippled clops if it means they can kill Excadrill.

Is it really a viable move if you have to sacrifice a pokemon? Maybe, but I don't see why Excadrill wouldn't just Swords Dance when Dusclops is in. He can take a hit, maybe two, but I'm not sure how he puts Excadrill down.

3.) Skarmory can play around it with spikes

Ridiculous statement. What good are spikes going to do when Excadrill is sweeping your team? And there is this move that Excadrill has called Rapid Spin...

4.) Gliscor can OHKO it (if not air balloon, it canNOT run x-scissor AND return, so some of these counters fo better depending on his set.)

It actually can run X-Scissor and Return. It only has to sacrifice rapid spin, which isn't that important on a Sand team. Most don't take much damage from stealth rock, Excadrill's steel typing gives it immunity to toxic spikes.

5.) Rotom-W{: X-Scissor and rock slide cripple it, NOT KILL IT. Will-O and Hydro CAN miss, you can get a crit, HAX IS NO REASON FOR BANNING. So, lets say for arguements sake, that there is no hax in the match. X-Scissor or Rock Slide, Hydro Kill, next!

You switch in Rotom-W, it takes a hit. Excadrill either ends it, or it switches out. To be a true counter, it has to come in on a hit and finish it off.

6.) Conkeldrr would just eat the earthquake and Drain Punch + Mach Punch. He swords dances?!! Even better.

Conkeldurr is a very good Excadrill solution. This is widely accepted.

7.) Bronzong can levitate his ass, and gyro ball hit balloon (IF ANY) and EQ for the OHKO (or 2HKO?)

Another decent option. Again, this is pretty accepted here, I think.


Excadrill can always switch out, THATS THE FUCKING POINT. You sweep everything untill he only has Excadrill left.

Oh, it's that simple? lol. Excadrill is a dominant threat, but no team is running a bunch of Magikarp and Excadrill. Expecting to dominate his team to the point where you have him down to only his Excadrill while your team is still intact is not happening against any decent player.

Wheres the switch now? Especially if hes a late game sweeper, theres really nothing to switch to. You can't use that for every viable counter, (oh he cant beat it, ill switch and he magically dies and exca can come back?!)

One cotton guard buddy, +3=3-4HKO on regular balloon Excadrill. 2-3HKO on LO adamant (if they run X-Scissor, they might now even have it). Taunt=NO Swords Dance. Leech Seed forces switch, momento if hes the last pokemon or gigadrain stall.

Won't comment here. Not familiar enough with Cotton Guard to make any judgments.


Latios/Laias/Celebi/Rotom-W/Umbreaon/Reuniclus can work around him if lacks the X-Scissor.

As someone who has religiously used an Umbreon in past gens, I will tell you right now that Umbreon can do absolutely nothing to Excadrill except hope for confuse ray hax. Toxic? Immune. Payback? Barely dents Excadrill while he Swords Dances. What is Umbreon doing? Yeah, it can survive a hit (if not X-Scissor, which is common).

And maybe I'm not thinking straight, but why benefit does X-Scissor have over Rock Slide when it comes to Rotom besides a minor accuracy problem? I don't see the extra 5 power doing much.

I can handle Excadrill really well if he lacks EQ or Rock Slide. Sadly, we can't make checks based on the magic ability to remove his moves.





Basically, your saying I can't play around forcing Excadrill out and cornering it?
We need some experts here not people who want to ban something b/c they can't deal with it -____-

This is why I recently suggested that any arguments cite actual battle experience to back up their points.

 

[tehy]

3.) Skarmory can play around it with spikes

Ridiculous statement. What good are spikes going to do when Excadrill is sweeping your team? And there is this move that Excadrill has called Rapid Spin...


It'll stall him out. Since most of the time the battle against excadrill involves lots of switching, then eventually he'll die. Especially true for LO variants;even if they get past skarm eventually they might be down to one or two attacks. The balloon versions can mostly avoid spikes damage, but if they stay in too long-the only way to beat a skarm-they'll get it popped, and start taking spikes damage. As for rapid spin:
LO versions:You just lost 10% of your health and did no damage to me? Thanks bro!
Balloon versions: Nice job. Unfortunately i just popped your balloon while you rapid spun the first time, and if you keep rapid spinning that's more free turns, and you'll still usually take damage from a layer of spikes. Sometimes they can keep it intact the whole game, until they're the last pokemon, but as i explained that puts them at a huge disadvantage, as skarm can now switch in freely and force it out, so that'll usually give you a sizeable advantage, allowing you to keep alive a jellicent or a thundurus or something to nail excadrill at the end.

Bottom line:Skarm is a great counter. As long as you can predict, and don't get mega-haxed.

 

[Newmannium]

3.) Skarmory can play around it with spikes

Ridiculous statement. What good are spikes going to do when Excadrill is sweeping your team? And there is this move that Excadrill has called Rapid Spin...


It'll stall him out. Since most of the time the battle against excadrill involves lots of switching, then eventually he'll die. Especially true for LO variants;even if they get past skarm eventually they might be down to one or two attacks. The balloon versions can mostly avoid spikes damage, but if they stay in too long-the only way to beat a skarm-they'll get it popped, and start taking spikes damage. As for rapid spin:
LO versions:You just lost 10% of your health and did no damage to me? Thanks bro!
Balloon versions: Nice job. Unfortunately i just popped your balloon while you rapid spun the first time, and if you keep rapid spinning that's more free turns, and you'll still usually take damage from a layer of spikes. Sometimes they can keep it intact the whole game, until they're the last pokemon, but as i explained that puts them at a huge disadvantage, as skarm can now switch in freely and force it out, so that'll usually give you a sizeable advantage, allowing you to keep alive a jellicent or a thundurus or something to nail excadrill at the end.

I call bullshit.

Once your opponent discovers you're crazy enough to try and setup on Excadrill with Skarmory its only a matter of time before he sets up another SD as you spike/roost, forcing you to phaze him as he mauls you with a +4 rock slide, assuming you don't get flinch'd in which case you're screwed.

Bottom line:Skarm is a great counter. As long as you can predict, and don't get mega-haxed.

Ok, first of all a one-in-three chance to get flinched hardly counts as "mega-haxed". Secondly, saying you can just out-predict is a cop-out, the deck is totally stacked in favor of the Excadrill user. You mispredict once, you get flinched once, and your Skarmory is getting mauled or killed while a healthy Excadrill is either phazed out or staring down the rest of your team at +2/+4 while you get get one maybe two layers of spikes down.

Skarmory is a shitty Excadrill counter.

 

[tehy]

I call bullshit.

Once your opponent discovers you're crazy enough to try and setup on Excadrill with Skarmory its only a matter of time before he sets up another SD as you spike/roost, forcing you to phaze him as he mauls you with a +4 rock slide, assuming you don't get flinch'd in which case you're screwed.

Ok, first of all a one-in-three chance to get flinched hardly counts as "mega-haxed". Secondly, saying you can just out-predict is a cop-out, the deck is totally stacked in favor of the Excadrill user. You mispredict once, you get flinched once, and your Skarmory is getting mauled or killed while a healthy Excadrill is either phazed out or staring down the rest of your team at +2/+4 while you get get one maybe two layers of spikes down.

Skarmory is a shitty Excadrill counter.

I never said getting flinched ONCE counts as getting mega-haxed. It's two or more. For the balloon versions, you can take multiple ones. For LO ones, why the hell would i bother setting up? It's much easier to let him die of LO damage. If i've got a blatant introduction for spikes, like switching in on an EQ with full hp (Happens a lot), i'll set them up.
You say the deck is stacked for exca? Not really; he can't switch in on much in my team-or any good team-if he lacks a balloon. If he has one, he has real trouble breaking skarm. And if he keeps telegraphing SD, he'll die eventually.

 

[MaestroXXVI]

Most importantly, its not a counter if its only real answer is phazing it out...get swept by a last poke exca even once and you'll see how shitty of a 'counter' skarm really is...

But honestly, the best way to stop exca is to have a solidly built team that doesn't let him get in...corner him into a situation where he has to come out but can't sd (revenge something if you don't want to get swept, etc.), and he's as good as dead.

 

[tehy]

Lol, i keep countering this very argument.

Skarm doens't need to counter last poke exca-if it wants to avoid getting stalled out hard, it'll have to play so conservatively that you'll rack up hazards damage on its teammates. The only way around that is to never come in, in which case it's slightly more fair, but even then, all you need is to keep around a single pokemon that can take one hit from exca and kill it. This is zapdos, any bulky water, mence, gyara... need i go on?

 

[Eggbert]

whirlwind brings out Exca and makes it take damage, or forces them to have something else on their team take hazards if they want to keep excadrill safe. If exca stays until lategame, it isn't boosted and something can take a hit and KO. It isn't this easy without a defensive team, but that is the point.

 

[AfroThunderRule]

Skarmory is perfectly fine.

BB does 25% and with LO recoil, Spikes, etc it's going to die pretty fast... I can speak from experience. My Skarm has dealt with multiple Exca's and my Skarm doesn't even carry Leftovers.. lol

And the Balloon ones deal laughable damage, pop the balloon, phaze it out, and then it has to switch to Spikes next time, boom.

 

[tehy]

whirlwind brings out Exca and makes it take damage, or forces them to have something else on their team take hazards if they want to keep excadrill safe. If exca stays until lategame, it isn't boosted and something can take a hit and KO. It isn't this easy without a defensive team, but that is the point.

Well, offensive teams have things like dual screens and heavy priority, and he's going to have trouble switching in. It does screw up offensive teams somewhat, but there are alright counters-just pack a rotom-w and maybe a balloon (Terakion/lucario/tran/god only knows) and have fun.

 

[blarajan]

This entire discussion about how Skarmory isn't an Excadrill counter is both ridiculous and annoying.

Skarmory does 25% to Excadrill with Brave Bird. Skarmory pops its balloon and sets up spikes. Skarmory doesn't let it get past +2 because any non retarded Skarmory will phaze it out by then to avoid the mega-hax scenario tehy is rightfully scared of. Skarmory spams Brave Bird or Spikes on it, takes no damage from anything, and phazs it out. It beats Excadrill as last mon if Excadrill switches in with any previous damage. Skarmory beats Excadrill every single time unless you get haxed.

And by saying you can expect a Rock Slide flinch from Excadrill on Skarmory is like saying Gliscor doesn't counter Excadrill because of a possible Rock Slide flinch. It's not true, and honestly stupid. None of you are saying Gliscor doesn't counter Excadrill, I'm sure. Stop saying the same for Skarmory when Skarmory is absolutely amazing at beating Excadrill while providing team support at the same time. Gliscor doesn't do anything but laugh. Skarmory laughs while crippling the entirety of the opponent's team, as long as it doesn't get greedy and doesn't get mega-haxed.

 

[Shurtugal]

1.) (Politoed/Ninetials)
- Ok, I agree that these two Pokemon are reliable checks. Although I think we can both agree that what makes Excadrill so deadly in the 1st place is it's combination of massive power and super speed under SS. - Politoed and Ninetales automatically eliminate this speed threat with their abilities and hence become reliable counters to Excadrill.

2.) Hitmontop
"- Should be able to take a hit, especially if you pull off an Intimidate. Close Combat, Mach Punch? Sure he can switch out, but you can't ban a Pokemon off other Pokemon teamed with it. Its your job as the trainer to play around his team and take out Excadrill."

Actually Hitmontop cannot live Excadrill's EQ at plus one - (it does 102% on average). The only way Hitmontop can check Excadrill is to use it's tech ability plus LO. Otherwise it will lose to Excadrill. (Usage - 1.6%)

3.) Gliscor
- OK I agree that this is one of the most common and reliable counters to Excadrill.

4.) Dusclops
(+2) Excadrill vs 0HP/252Def Impish Dusclops:
1st turn
Excadrill EQ / Dusclops WoW (75% acc)
810 Atk vs 596 Def & 221 HP (100 Base Power): 147 - 174 (66.52% - 78.73%) / Avg - 71.95%
2nd turn
405 Atk vs 596 Def & 221 HP (100 Base Power): 75 - 88 (33.94% - 39.82%) / Avg - 36.65%

Dusclops will be 2KO'd no problem with 0EVS in HP. If Max HP/Def then Excadrill will do 55% on average with EQ. So assuming it does EQ on the 1st turn and assuming Dusclops burn hits on the 1st turn, then Excadrill can SD again on turn 2. On the very same turn (turn 2) Dusclops can pain split to survive the next hit from EQ. This will leave both Pokemon at 233HP. Both Pokemon will live the next hit, assuming both use EQ. Excadrill being first to attack the next turn, will be victorious. Oh and if WoW missed that first turn Excadrill will 2KO Dusclops with EQ.

5.) Skarmory
Yes, Skarm can counter Excadrill but really all it can do to it is fire of a measly Brave Bird attacks or force it out with Whirlwind. Hmm a temporary solution I guess, but I suppose sooner or later one will die from team mate damage or Hazards.

6.) Dusknoir
I've already explained how Dusclops fails against Excadrill.

7.) Donphan
Is two KO'd by (+2) Excadrills EQ. Assuming Excadrill is holding balloon, Donphan cannot check Excadrill.

8.) Sablye
WoW has a shaky 75% acc and if you miss Excadrill will be OHKOing (impish nature max HP/Def after one SD). If you hit with WoW, Excadrill can still 2KO Sableye so meh unless you get really luckily I wouldn't refer to Sableye as a reliable Excadrill counter.

9.) Rotom-W
(+2) Excadrill Return vs Rotom-W 0HP/0Def:
810 Atk vs 250 Def & 241 HP (102 Base Power): 237 - 279 (98.34% - 115.77%) / Avg - 106.22%
(+2)Excadrill Retrun vs Rotom-W 252HP/252Def Bold:
810 Atk vs 344 Def & 304 HP (102 Base Power): 172 - 203 (56.58% - 66.78%)

Rotom-W needs to be at least EV'd in HP in order to with stand a (+2) Excadrill's Return. However a (+2) Excadrill's return will always 2KO a Rotom-W even if it's EV'd in both HP and Def. Therefore your are relying on a 80% Hydro Pump or a 75% WoW to hit for Rotom-W to be called a reliable Excadrill check.

10.) Conkeldur
Doesn't check it. Excadrill will OHKO Conkeldurr on average after SD and Conkeldurr fails to OHKO Excadrill with mach punch (even with iron fist ability).

11.) Infernape
SashApe can close combat and mach punch FTW. Matter of playing around his team. It works well when your opponent doesn't predict the sash and kill.
Ok so I can pretty much list any sash Pokemon as a reliable Excadrill counter >.< .... no just no.

12.) Azumaril
Ok it checks it but it's only used 1.6% of the time.

13.) Swampert
(+2) Excadrill's EQ vs 252HP/0Def Swampert:
810 Atk vs 216 Def & 404 HP (100 Base Power): 403 - 475 (99.75% - 117.57%) / Avg - 107.92%

Well if your using the standard set then pert isn't a reliable Excadrill counter. Meh but if you want to use pert and invest EV's in def then ok I guess you can call it a counter. (Although pert will be just about as good as dead afterwards.)

14.) Suicune
(+2) Excadrill 2KO's 252HP/252Def Bold suicune with EQ no problem. Whilst cune fails to OHKO Excadrill (doing 79.78% on average with surf). Therefore cune is not a reliable check.

15.) Whismicott
Well this Pokemon can leech seed and out stall practically every sweeper, so meh yes I guess Excadrill will fall to it just like everything else.

16.) Alakazam - Sash
Meh ok if u put sash on it, but this to me is like saying all balloon pokemon are reliable counters to Excadrill =/ (which they are not) and anyway, Focus Blast has a 70% accuracy which is not reliable and Hidden Power Fire only does 67% on average to Excadrill.

I would like to point out that one of your objective in forving Excadrill out is to stop SD. Excadrill can't always pul it off, and your job is to put on the pressure



Also,
Everyone whos against excadrill always thinks like this:

Excadrill @ Life Orb AND Air Air Balloom
nature: jolly and adamant

swords dance
earthquake
rock slide
x-scissor
return
rapid spin

+2 Atk


There are to many attacks and you can't always assume hes pulled of a Swords Dance. Sure, he can run return and x-scissor, but how common an that. And secondly, everytihng he rock slides to get rid of becomes a counter. Rapid Spin, hmm lets see, skarmory can still wall around that. Hmmm, he sets up a swords dance. Like I said, lets assume hax is out of question, because NO ONE CONTROLS HAX! Skarmory whirls it out. Roosts, while many say he will "just come back in". And he takes spikes damage. Also, I agree Will-O-Wisp accuracy is shaky, but some duscnoir and susclops run Brick Break, which if ev invested right, can take a hit and finish with a Brick Break.

When I mentioned Infernape, I forgot to include sand damage, my bad. Anyways, the checks depend on what set excadrill run. Since he cannot run everything, you have to scout for it and play around it. Now that I have spelled it out for some of you, maybe this will clear things up.

Hide

-Originally Posted by Fat jrrrrrrr -
"Overcentralization" is the biggest joke of an argument I've ever heard. Something is popular, therefore it must be too good? If you apply that logic every round, you will end up banning literally everything. Overcentralization isn't even a word. Stop using it like popularity decides what is good

 

[Raikaria]

I would like to point out that one of your objective in forving Excadrill out is to stop SD. Excadrill can't always pul it off, and your job is to put on the pressure



Also,
Everyone whos against excadrill always thinks like this:

Excadrill @ Life Orb AND Air Air Balloom
nature: jolly and adamant

swords dance
earthquake
rock slide
x-scissor
return
rapid spin

+2 Atk

Well, when you're talking abut checks and counters, you have to assume the coverage move, and guess what? If he has the wrong one, say goodbye to your check!

Also, it's not exactly hard for Excadrill to come in later and get up an Swords Dance, and your argument about him taking risidual damage applies to all pokemon without Magic Guard. If Excadrill got in once, he can probobly do so again, even if it requires a sacrifice.


The point also stands that unless you're packing Gliscor [Or Skarm, but you risk not getting to Roost by bringing in a dangerous teammate] you will have to sacrifice something to get your check in safe.

And saying 'elimitate Excadrill's team' to beat Excadrill is outright foolish. Every time it comes in, you're gonna have to lose something, so guess what? Excadrill is doing the same to you, as you're attempting to do it it's team.

Don't make up counters and checks were there are none. The only solid Excadrill check is Gliscor. The others only force it out, to wreck havok later, or require a sacrifice to come in.

Oh, and yes, centralisation dosen't mean something is broken.

But it sure is a good indicator. Look at Salamence in Gen 4. Or the Garchomp Metagame, or even the Latias metagame. When that was banned, Scarftar vanished!

When Drizzle + SS was banned, Virizion took quite a large drop.

Upon Blaziken's banning, Slowbro and Azumarill took large drops.

Now, apply this all to the current metagame, and see the centralisation around Excadrill and Drizzle.

There will always be centralisation, which is why what the metagame is centralised around will always be suspect. The more centralised the metagame, the more people are going to call the suspect into question. Its very rare that something is broken, but not centralising, and usually, that's Wobbuffett, who a lot of people simply dislike using...