Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
i am voting to ban this pokemon because i find it too strong, easy to pilot, and oppressive to play against. genesect is a low skill floor pokemon that forces the opponent to manoeuvre in such restrictive fashion. its typing gives it ample playtime to wreak havoc and its movepool + stats allow it to heavily disrupt the opponent thereafter.
in my personal view of the meta, it would be much healthier with a genesect gone. if you wish to subscribe to abr's logic, be my guest.
I don't believe I will have the time for getting reqs this time, but I had the chance to see many gene-games goin so I made an idea about it.
Genesect's strenght mainly resides in U-Turn. The fact that it has a very wide movepool and different movesets makes it really powerful. Download is the ability that can potentially give Genesect the power of Choice Band/Specs even if you're running a Choice Scarf set, or any other item (Douse Drive, Expert Belt, Focus Sash, etc.) or it can just make your Atk/SpAtk even more powerful. Flameboltbeam coverage let it potentially cover any way to "counter" U-Turn, dealing huge damages to everything used against volturn, like Helmet Ground types (Lando-T/Garchomp), Steel types (Skarmory, Celesteela, Ferrothorn) or Toxapex/Tapu Fini (this last one is not that reliable tho since CB Iron Head hurts). Heatran is the main answer to Genesect, but it has not any reliable way to recover HP bar Leftovers/Protect, so it can slowly die off hazards or just CB/Downloaded U-Turn; don't forget that Genesect can potentially run HP Ground, or Douse Techno Blast.
Genesect can also run physical sets like the Shift Gear one, but the Shiny factor can make it more predictable so the best way you can use Shiny Genesect could theoretically be a mixed one that can make you less predictable; Naive (or Hasty, idr which one it has to run) nature quite sucks though.
However, Genesect can't run all these moves or items in one slot, so you can "play around" it in order to scout; additionally, it lacks boosting moves or that so powerful immediate power to make you regret even a single wrong guessing, unlike mons as Mega-Lucario could do (or ORAS Greninja). Does this make Genesect somehow "healthy"? Imho, no. I already said that U-Turn is the main strenght of Genesect, and the reason is not just for the powerful STAB that can slowly make its counters take damage while giving momentum and pressure: U-Turn also gives you the chance to make Genesect teammates the answer for what Genesect lacks in the moveset you run. Do you lack Flamethrower? U-Turn on that Skarm/Celesteela and use a partner that can make great things in front of them; Do you lack Thunderbolt? Same thing, just add Toxapex to the list. Do you lack Ice Beam? Slap something that can take advantage over bulky grounds. And obviously, you can just use Dugtrio to trap Heatran and other mons assigned to check it.
Genesect is not only a strong mon by itself (the absence of some of the fastest Megas + the presence of many slower powerful Pokémon as Tapu Lele makes its speed be less shitty as it could had been in Gen 5/6), it's also a really strong support Pokémon and the best U-Turn user in the game so far. Given the pressure it deals, counterplay is really limited and somehow predictable, and many times you have to rely on Choice Scarf fastest users (as example Pheromosa even tho it suffers ExtremeSpeed) that don't even have enough power to win a 1v1 considering that Genesect isn't so frail; that could happen even if Genesect isn't scarfed, since you can't know for sure the set it runs from the beginning unless good guessing skills (that would just be a guessing anyway though).
So for these reasons I believe Genesect is a bit too much and it should leave the tier.
it infuriates me having to play a stall team every other game to a point where i start talking shit in the battle log. however, this does not change the fact that i accept that stall is the easiest way to get requirements and the most consistent way to win.
offense is way harder to ladder because you have to play it near perfectly if you want to win (for hyper offense, there is no near as you have to play it perfectly). the fact that teams need to dedicate a teamslot or customize a moveset for the sole purpose of beating stall is not a bad thing. i've used pokemon such as shell smash + waterium z omastar and substitute + nasty plot hoopa-confined just for the sole purpose of beating stall, yet i still could not win because of how you need to play such threats elegantly to win or you're destined to lose because the rest of your team will get stalled out. even then, your opponent might have more than one check to your "stallbreaker." let's not ignore the fact how good dugtrio is on the archetype.
how does this relate to genesect you may ask? i like offense, all variants of it. if i see something is putting a lot of pressure on a playstyle or make a playstyle much more dominant than another, i will vote ban. stall may have to be looked into in the future, but the generation gave offense so many tools to work with that this generation has become much more skill based than previous ones. that's why i am enjoying the suspect ladder and also why i will be voting ban on genesect because of how much pressure it puts on offense. finally, i just wanted to say how creative you can be in sun/moon and banning genesect promotes the creativity aspect of the metagame as well.
The options it gets are too great to justify it staying imo, the meta is a lot better without it and the only salvation to Gene is that it cannot run all of the viable moves it gets. The risk/reward factor of using it is non-existent, huge reward for you with a powerful potential +1 STAB Uturn (at worst just STAB) and, before scouting the set, always a risk for your opponent. You all already know the damage output, stupidly good movepool and great ability to tie the bow neatly. So I won't bore you with that. Just giving my 2 cents.
Genesect has a movepool so deep that you have to scout it because your "check" can be killed by a coverage move + prior chip damage. This generation also introduced Z-crystals which add even more unpredictability to the table, so it is hard to stop this bug before scouting its entire movepool. Genesect can't run all these moves together, but you have to figure them out.
In this case having the calculator open when battling doesn't help you at all.
"But Genesect helps us towards Tapu Lele"... we don't keep broken things in OU to keep in check other broken things. Full stop.
Let's not forget Download, an ability that forces many pokemons to run some EVs spread only to not boost Genesect's Extremespeed/U-turn. Keep in mind that Genesect still can use the SpA boost for its special coverage moves, it's not like Porygon2 when receives a boost on its Atk instead of SpA.
Genesect doesn't have the ability to sweep an entire team alone without support, but it brings to the table too many options and utility for a OU monster. It punches holes into the opponent's team before being killed.
Some of the Arguements in this thread and in the OU room have been hilariously bad. Including but not limited to ''We need Gene to stop old cores coming back'', ''We need Gene to stop Fairies'', ''We need Gene to check tapu lele, Greninja and Other broken stuff''. Seriously look at what some of you are typing. Old Cores and fairies are not problems and if we are relying on 1 Mon to keep other supposedly broken stuff legal what does that tell you about the state of the Meta? We need more suspects to clear broken and meta constricting stuff out of the game not Swiss army knives trying to act like band-aids.
Anyway Genesect is broken pure and simple, Can be tailored to eliminate virtually any threat and Has more viable sets then any other mon currently running around, Has Insane amounts of power and is backed by a solid typing that allows it to potentially show up more then once in a game. U-turn is icing on the cake. All these traits combine to create a centralising threat with very little counter play. While a pokemon does not always need to have a switch-in there needs to be answers beyond Sack a mon and try to Guess the set. If you scout wrong something dies, You try to revenge but instead it has scarf, something dies again. To put it into perspective Gen 5 Hydreigon had no swtich ins but was easily revenged and getting locked into the wrong move was a death sentence, Gen 6 Clef Had few counters but was kept at bay by consistent offensive pressure. Genesect lacks these and any other real downside. It can be slaped onto team's without thought or consequence and almost always puts in work regardless of the set. I've yet to see any form of Reliable counter play to this thing that does not involve something dieing the magority of the Time.
Genesect should have been quickbanned instead of being allowed to run around as long as it has. If I reach Reqs I'm voting Ban
Some of the Arguements in this thread and in the OU room have been hilariously bad. Including but not limited to ''We need Gene to stop old cores coming back'', ''We need Gene to stop Fairies'', ''We need Gene to check tapu lele, Greninja and Other broken stuff''. Seriously look at what some of you are typing. Old Cores and fairies are not problems and if we are relying on 1 Mon to keep other supposedly broken stuff legal what does that tell you about the state of the Meta? We need more suspects to clear broken and meta constricting stuff out of the game not Swiss army knives trying to act like band-aids.
Anyway Genesect is broken pure and simple, Can be tailored to eliminate virtually any threat and Has more viable sets then any other mon currently running around, Has Insane amounts of power and is backed by a solid typing that allows it to potentially show up more then once in a game. U-turn is icing on the cake. All these traits combine to create a centralising threat with very little counter play. While a pokemon does not always need to have a switch-in there needs to be answers beyond Sack a mon and try to Guess the set. If you scout wrong something dies, You try to revenge but instead it has scarf, something dies again. To put it into perspective Gen 5 Hydreigon had no swtich ins but was easily revenged and getting locked into the wrong move was a death sentence, Gen 6 Clef Had few counters but was kept at bay by consistent offensive pressure. Genesect lacks these and any other real downside. It can be slaped onto team's without thought or consequence and almost always puts in work regardless of the set. I've yet to see any form of Reliable counter play to this thing that does not involve something dieing the magority of the Time.
Genesect should have been quickbanned instead of being allowed to run around as long as it has. If I reach Reqs I'm voting Ban
I find something wrong about this whole broken check broken argument that the pro ban keeps pointing. While it does seem a legit argument at face value, when you look deeper into it a problem emerges. Is something really BROKEN if there are things in the tier that can check it? Some people may say that UU has a bunch of broken mons in it right now and a broken check broken argument may appear, but once you place them in OU they will be seen as fine. Genesect isn't broken because it can't just overpower things like zygarde-c can. Broken nowadays seem to anything that is extremely versatile, easily slapped on to any team or has no switch ins.
Yes. Some of the most blatantly overpowering ubers have several checks that exist in OU (extremekiller -> skarm, GeoXern -> toxapex, primal groundon -> lando-t)
Some people may say that UU has a bunch of broken mons in it right now and a broken check broken argument may appear, but once you place them in OU they will be seen as fine.
I find something wrong about this whole broken check broken argument that the pro ban keeps pointing. While it does seem a legit argument at face value, when you look deeper into it a problem emerges. Is something really BROKEN if there are things in the tier that can check it? Some people may say that UU has a bunch of broken mons in it right now and a broken check broken argument may appear, but once you place them in OU they will be seen as fine. Genesect isn't broken because it can't just overpower things like zygarde-c can. Broken nowadays seem to anything that is extremely versatile, easily slapped on to any team or has no switch ins.
There is more than one way to define if something is broken. Just because something has a check doesn't mean that check is good or even viable on the majority of teams or playstyles. There isn't much of a difference between something being so over-powered that its uncompetitive and thus broken and something that is as you put it "extremely versatile, easily slapped on to any team, [and] has no switch ins." being broken. Two very different reasons given for being broken, but its still broken. Trying to draw a distinct line between the two doesn't really do anything other than define a reason behind why something is considered broken. They are both valid definitions of being broken so trying to come up with a single definition for the term is rather detrimental.
I find something wrong about this whole broken check broken argument that the pro ban keeps pointing. While it does seem a legit argument at face value, when you look deeper into it a problem emerges. Is something really BROKEN if there are things in the tier that can check it? Some people may say that UU has a bunch of broken mons in it right now and a broken check broken argument may appear, but once you place them in OU they will be seen as fine. Genesect isn't broken because it can't just overpower things like zygarde-c can. Broken nowadays seem to anything that is extremely versatile, easily slapped on to any team or has no switch ins.
If something is extremely versatile, easy slapped on to any team, has no switch ins, is the best momentum grabber in the meta, with strong priority and great defensive typing all in the same time maybe there is a problem...
I find something wrong about this whole broken check broken argument that the pro ban keeps pointing. While it does seem a legit argument at face value, when you look deeper into it a problem emerges. Is something really BROKEN if there are things in the tier that can check it? Some people may say that UU has a bunch of broken mons in it right now and a broken check broken argument may appear, but once you place them in OU they will be seen as fine. Genesect isn't broken because it can't just overpower things like zygarde-c can. Broken nowadays seem to anything that is extremely versatile, easily slapped on to any team or has no switch ins.
Having a check does not mean something isn't broken. If they don't have either a healthy amount of checks/counters or some downside that facilitates a form of counterplay (such as Kyurem-B's vulnerability to hazards, priority, and lack of speed allowing revenge kills), the mon is extremely centralizing even if there is a way to respond to it. There are mons even in OU that could check Extreme-Killer Arceus or Xerneas, but those mons are still broken because in the context of an OU metagame, they win games regardless of skillful play since they objectively turn the match up not into "do I know how to play against sweepers" into "do I happen to be carrying this specific check." That's also (to an obviously lesser degree) an issue I find can be argued for Genesect: even against what is considered extremely skillful play, it borders on impossible to stop Genesect from doing his job (pressuring offense and balance cores while grabbing momentum) without knowing his set ahead of time, which is not reliable information. It's just that Genesect's case springs from a lot of factors coming together for unprecedented versatility than just being stupidly strong compared to everything else in the tier.
UU mons are not a point of comparison because the entire point of the tiers is that UU is a completely different environment: things in UU are not expected to handle OU's level of power (select mons can, but it's not a rule of thumb necessarily), so something being passable or even terrible in OU does not necessarily entail it will be broken or even good in UU, or vice versa. Something being broken in UU and then getting banned to perform passably in OU has happened, but that doesn't change that it was broken in UU (see literally the entire BL list).
Zygarde-C is a whole different level of stupid when looked at in the OU tier, and even then its role was completely different: Genesect is a mon who's adept at breaking cores and Scouting, Zygarde-C was a tank that was literally impossible to kill reasonably with what OU has. The reason anti-ban has a (legitimate if not, in my opinion, preferable/winning) position is because Genesect's not being debated as broken outright, he's being suspected on the premise of being unhealthy for the tier's development.
And the definition you gave is not one-to-one, but I do think, objectively, if a mon can be slapped on a team at little-to-no cost for what it provides and it has outright no switch ins or counter play, that is probably not a healthy presence. Heck, Genesect's problems isn't even 100% a lack of switch-ins outright, it's a lack of safe responses to an opposing Genesect since he has basically every option he could want to intimidate or lure would-be answers to him such that having a good (in theory) counterplay doesn't ensure you hinder it from putting in massive amounts of work for its team
I think what should be made a finer point of is the +1 Download boost, and what that is equivalent to in base stat totals. Taking a neutral natured 248 Atk / 8 SpAtk, and comparing those at the +1 to what it's equal to in terms of a neutral 252 EV invested base stat total, then for Atk it's base 204 and for SpAtk it's base 159. To draw comparisons, this means at the +1 it's effective attack easily eclipses that of Kartana (base 181) while it's special attack is greater than both Mewtwo (154) and Ash-Greninja (153).
All it takes for you to take advantage of this is to accurately predict which of Def or SpDef is higher, which while difficult on some pokemon others have obvious discrepancies that can be exploited. With it's almost limitless coverage, with a Scarf it's almost entirely risk free to use - outspeeding anything else that isn't boosted or itself Scarfed.
Then, as everyone has already mentioned, there's additional quirks like it running lure sets with Dowse Drive or a Shift Gear set that are viable and make it even more difficult to deal with, as well as strong priority with ExtremeSpeed. If it were banned you still have strong relevant OU mons with the same typing as well as priority if you were using it's resistances for a balance core (Mega and regular Scizor), and other mons capable of fast strong STAB U-turn pivoting with good coverage (Pheromosa).
The meta loses nothing from its ban as its roles can be filled to a good extent with other mons, it just gets rid of annoying pointless headache that over-centralizes the tier and makes it duller. I'm surprised there's any question that it should be banned, in fact a quick ban would have been preferable, but naturally if the council quick bans too much stuff people complain that they're ruining the tier.
Genesect is just too simple to need an explanation: its movepool is absolutely incredible, gets free boosts, and gets access to insane stats and speed when scarfed; meaning if it doesn't OHKO a pokemon, it can simply just U-turn for an incredible amount of damage on the target or any viable switch in. Priorities such as Bullet Punch and Extremespeed are resisted as well, so that makes for limited counterplay in the meta.
Genesect is a pokemon that is ridiculously versatile, not only can it run either physical or special sets, it can support those movesets with different types of moves(Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, Blaze Kick etc). When your are facing a Genesect in a battle you really never know what it can run, sure you can use things like if its shiny it has to have extreme speed or stuff like that, but in the end you can never be 100% sure of Genesects' moveset until you have seen all of its moves and usually by the time you have seen Genesects whole moveset you probably would have lost a mon already. Therefore I'm voting BAN
As someone that is anti-ban, I'd like to discuss the only solid ban argument I've seen that applies well in practice:
Genesect can often get a download attack boost and get in a really nice and safe u-turn.
That's its most important move and has pretty much no drawbacks (outside of rocky helmet etc. dmg)
But as I discuss more below, many offense mons can tank a u-turn pretty well.
And combine that with the fact that choiced Genesect fears being setup bait for offense teams,
then offense teams can often play around and take advantage of Gene's u-turn, without much effort.
A few points in relation to this:
Bug as an offensive type is only SE against dark, grass and psychic.
Fairy, fighting, fire, flying, ghost, poison, steel all resist bug.
To be somewhat fair, fire and flying are both weak to SR.
But on the other hand, there are a significant handful of good OU mons that combine either grass or psychic, with a type that resists bug ... aka they become neutral to uturn.
Next, Genesect's relatively-fragile bulk combined with its meh typing, is the trade-off for it's terrifying un-matched offensive versatility.
This fragility is an important point that explains why it is not automatically better than other offense pokes with a momentum grabbing move.
For offense teams, players may prefer more bulky offensive mons that can save the day in misplayed situations.
They may also save their "fragile slot" for another poke that by not being locked into a move, can then use both coverage and speed to end the game.
Below hidden, is a list of some pretty-common offense mons that Gene doesn't always scare away, and Gene could be in fact setup for them:
Char X, Pheromosa, Tapu Koko, Serperior, Tornadus-T, Lando/Chomp, Excadrill (and Ttar) , M-Gyarados, Thundurus-I, boosted Kartana/Xuritree/Nilhelgo, sub-Buzzwole,
boosted Mimikyu, Kingdra, boosted Scizor in Rain, Volcarona, M-Pinsir, BD Azu, some good Z-move mons like Manaphy, Terrakion, Salamence
Meteor Mash + Hammer Arm from Metagross
If Gene gets worn down by overplaying u-turn, it will be in the range of Lele and Water Shuriken Greninja.
There are likely more offensive cores out there that target something else than Gene, but kill Gene also.
Now when the Gene is choiced, the Gene user thinks:
if I kill the current poke with something else than u-turn, my Gene could then be setup bait for an offense mon that threatens Gene and Gene's teammates.
So there's a very good chance the user will decide to u-turn in fear of becoming setup bait.
So then you say, well it won't be setup bait if it's not choiced.
But now against other offense teams, your Gene will either need a turn to setup Shift Gear (which likely means no u-turn either), or your Gene will lack either the speed/power to take out offensive stuff.
With the amount of offensive variety out there, Gene will not often be in favorable situations and the Gene user will fear being setup bait.
The likelihood of u-turn then can be seen by the opponent.
This discussion has been focused too much on defensive FWG mons and etc. and how they fare against Gene. People need to expand their view to the variety of offensive choices out there, and realize that tons of offensive win-cons that break cores auto-include beating Gene anyways
Bug as an offensive type is only SE against dark, grass and psychic.
Fairy, fighting, fire, flying, ghost, poison, steel all resist bug.
To be somewhat fair, fire and flying are both weak to SR.
But on the other hand, there are a significant handful of good OU mons that combine either grass or psychic, with a type that resists bug ... aka they become neutral to uturn.
Next, Genesect's relatively-fragile bulk combined with its meh typing, is the trade-off for it's terrifying un-matched offensive versatility.
This fragility is an important point that explains why it is not automatically better than other offense pokes with a momentum grabbing move.
For offense teams, players may prefer more bulky offensive mons that can save the day in misplayed situations.
They may also save their "fragile slot" for another poke that by not being locked into a move, can then use both coverage and speed to end the game.
Below hidden, is a list of some pretty-common offense mons that Gene doesn't always scare away, and Gene could be in fact setup for them:
Char X, Pheromosa, Tapu Koko, Serperior, Tornadus-T, Lando/Chomp, Excadrill (and Ttar) , M-Gyarados, Thundurus-I, boosted Kartana/Xuritree/Nilhelgo, sub-Buzzwole,
boosted Mimikyu, Kingdra, boosted Scizor in Rain, Volcarona, M-Pinsir, BD Azu, some good Z-move mons like Manaphy, Terrakion, Salamence
Meteor Mash + Hammer Arm or Tpunch from Metagross
If Gene gets worn down by overplaying u-turn, it will be in the range of Lele and Water Shuriken Greninja.
You do realize just because Genesect's dual STAB are not the best doesn't magically negate the absurd coverage it has, right?
And in what universe is Bug/Steel a meh defensive typing? Genesect isn't even that frail, since 71/95/95 with one of the best defensive typings means it's not easy to revenge kill (at least with priority).
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 126-148 (44.5 - 52.2%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Earth Plate Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 244-288 (86.2 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Genesect: 199-234 (70.3 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 160-189 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 229-271 (80.9 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The list you gave as things that can set up on Genesect is also wrong. Scarf Genesect U-Turns out for free on most of those, and the right coverage move (which Genesect gets, due to its obscene movepool) blows back every single one of those Pokemon.
As someone that is anti-ban, I'd like to discuss the only solid ban argument I've seen that applies well in practice:
Genesect can often get a download attack boost and get in a really nice and safe u-turn.
That's its most important move and has pretty much no drawbacks (outside of rocky helmet etc. dmg)
But as I discuss more below, many offense mons can tank a u-turn pretty well.
And combine that with the fact that choiced Genesect fears being setup bait for offense teams,
then offense teams can often play around and take advantage of Gene's u-turn, without much effort.
A few points in relation to this:
Bug as an offensive type is only SE against dark, grass and psychic.
Fairy, fighting, fire, flying, ghost, poison, steel all resist bug.
To be somewhat fair, fire and flying are both weak to SR.
But on the other hand, there are a significant handful of good OU mons that combine either grass or psychic, with a type that resists bug ... aka they become neutral to uturn.
Next, Genesect's relatively-fragile bulk combined with its meh typing, is the trade-off for it's terrifying un-matched offensive versatility.
This fragility is an important point that explains why it is not automatically better than other offense pokes with a momentum grabbing move.
For offense teams, players may prefer more bulky offensive mons that can save the day in misplayed situations.
They may also save their "fragile slot" for another poke that by not being locked into a move, can then use both coverage and speed to end the game.
Below hidden, is a list of some pretty-common offense mons that Gene doesn't always scare away, and Gene could be in fact setup for them:
Char X, Pheromosa, Tapu Koko, Serperior, Tornadus-T, Lando/Chomp, Excadrill (and Ttar) , M-Gyarados, Thundurus-I, boosted Kartana/Xuritree/Nilhelgo, sub-Buzzwole,
boosted Mimikyu, Kingdra, boosted Scizor in Rain, Volcarona, M-Pinsir, BD Azu, some good Z-move mons like Manaphy, Terrakion, Salamence
Meteor Mash + Hammer Arm or Tpunch from Metagross
If Gene gets worn down by overplaying u-turn, it will be in the range of Lele and Water Shuriken Greninja.
There are likely more offensive cores out there that target something else than Gene, but kill Gene also.
Now when the Gene is choiced, the Gene user thinks:
if I kill the current poke with something else than u-turn, my Gene could then be setup bait for an offense mon that threatens Gene and Gene's teammates.
So there's a very good chance the user will decide to u-turn in fear of becoming setup bait.
So then you say, well it won't be setup bait if it's not choiced.
But now against other offense teams, your Gene will either need a turn to setup Shift Gear (which likely means no u-turn either), or your Gene will lack either the speed/power to take out offensive stuff.
With the amount of offensive variety out there, Gene will not often be in favorable situations and the Gene user will fear being setup bait.
The likelihood of u-turn then can be seen by the opponent.
This discussion has been focused too much on defensive FWG mons and etc. and how they fare against Gene. People need to expand their view to the variety of offensive choices out there, and realize that tons of offensive win-cons that break cores auto-include beating Gene anyways
what part of its defense is meh? Steel/Bug is an excelent typing both offensively and defensivly as the only thing that hits for super effective damage is fire, is immune to poison, and takes neutral or resists all other types. There are some offensive threates that aren't threatened by certain Genesect sets, but again thats the whole point of running u-turn, and if it gets out sped then it can just hard switch to a counter/check. Being able to tank a stab u-turn boosted or not, is not a relative argument for why Genesect dosen't threaten offensive and balanced teams. Genesect is never going to be set up bait because you don't know if it is choice locked or not and if it is they likely chose to use u-turn instead of a coverage move barring certain situations such as Heatran taking sr damage upon a switch in and Genesect using HP Ground on the predicted switch. A major problem being that Genesect can bluff varioius sets very easily. You seem to not understand that Genesect is almost always in a favorable situation regardless of what it is up against due to its versatility in move pool and item choices, not all Genesect run choice items in favor of flexability. It threatens offense because of its flexability and unpredictability regardless of what possible checks and counters you can come up with, add to that its non-existant counter play and you have a machine that performs several jobs effeciently all in one mon which would traditionaly take multipule mons to do. It can and does way too much to even be considered fair. Finally the Download boost is probably the least pressing issue it has and to call it the only solid argument is being just ignoring the bigger issues.
Quite frankly every anti-ban arugment I've seen has been paper-thin at best and completely irrelevant or non-existant at worst.
Fine if you take the typing in a vaccuum its not meh, aka see scizor, I know.
I meant the combination of its fragility and lack of resistances, prevents it from RKing the mons I listed above once they setup.
Look at the tapus: Koko has STAB electric, Bulu has Superpower, Lele FB or hp fire or just 2hkoes anyways with a Psychic move
Even Fini has Natures Madness to put Gene in range of its offensive teammates.
Lots of fairy and poison mons have other moves that hit genesect hard.
Look at offensive mons such as serperior behind a sub, or +2 excadrill, or dd mence. Non-choiced gene may switch out fearing hp fire from serp,
and exca/mence can setup on a locked-in gene.
And gene being locked into uturn, means a resisted poke (which many are listed there) can just attack whatever comes in too.
And sure a offense team may lose 1 mon by incorrectly predicting a non-choiced genesect ...
but then a good offense team will have other mons that outrun that gene!
Non-choiced gene has a lot of drawbacks against offense teams.
And against offense, what is gene coming into? After something dies ... well that something had to die first lol.
Comes in on a resisted hit by the less powerful offense members?
Well now its weakened to be in range of even resisted hits by boosted pokes that have the power.
Gene's shift gear set is not comparable at all to Lando-I's rock polish set, mainly due to lack of good offensive stab.
It also doesn't have the electric or ground immunity of it.
Gene doesn't have a 1 or 2 set thing that covers most teams.
A douse drive Gene is going to lack power in its other coverage moves.
And obviously it doesn't have the bulk or resistances of Aegislash either.
Yeah, exactly one of Genesect's sets uses U-turn explicitly for damage (Choice Band), and even Scizor and Pheromosa use it primarily for pivoting. Celesteela and Marowak resisting it means diddly because they just pivot into Magnezone and Keldeo, so you're KO'd/forced out anyway.
I know the Celesteela bit is weak because you'd be eating a Flamethrower or Thunderbolt for your trouble, but it was the other 4x resist that popped into my head.
EDIT: Yeah, Genesect eats every single Tapu for breakfast.
Tapu Koko is KO'd by 248 Attack Iron Head or +1 8 SpA Ice Beam/ Flamethrower with zero prior damage (so you can't safely switch in on Scarf). Tapu Bulu is weak to several of Genesect's coverage moves AND its STAB, so no matter your spread if you try to control Download is unsafe (+1 248 Iron Head just one-shots it after hazards while +1 8 SpA Ice Beam/Flamethrower 2HKOs, and +1 248 U-turn takes a little under half off 252/4 Bulu).
I may come back to this later with calcs for Lele and Fini (the only Tapu who comes anywhere close to safely dealing with Genesect, but I'd be willing to bet that +1 Thunderbolt fucks it up pretty badly), but I'm pretty sure the point has been made. Get rid of Genesect so we can start teambuilding again.
>"lack of resistances"
>Bug/Fairy/Steel/Dragon/Ice/Normal/Psychic/Poison/Grass resistances
>mfw
Tapu Koko gets 2HKO'd by Band Extremespeed, Scarf Ice Beam/Flamethrower, or +1 LO Shift Gear Iron Head (which is usually an OHKO).
Bulu gets obliterated by Iron Head and/or Flamethrower and Ice Beam, while Banded Wood Hammer is a 3HKO and Banded Superpower never OHKOs.
Lele doesn't OHKO with Specs Psychic and gets bopped by Iron Head or takes 60-70 from a +1 4 Atk U-Turn.
And why should Genesect beat setup offensive mons, or things like Serperior behind a Substitute? It's not a defensive wall/check, so those calcs are pointless. MEGA LUCARIO CAN'T BEAT SALAMENCE AFTER A DD OR +2 DRILL IN SAND, IT'S FINE FOR OU. That's the kind of logic you're using. Doesn't mean Genesect isn't busted.
Non-choiced Genesect is probably Genesect's best set right now. Because it gets TWO options for speed boosting, and one lets it blow past physical walls (RP Special) and the other lets it blow past special walls (Shift Gear Physical).
None of the Tapus would stay in on Genesect unless they could K.O. it with certainty and the only one that can out speed it for sure without being choice locked is Koko and thats only if Genesect isn't scarfed or running extreme speed. You also seem to forget the difference between blanket checks/coverage and versatility. The difference being that Lando-I works on the basis that is coverage can blanket the whole tier for neutral damage or super effective damage through Earthquake and rock slide/stone edge and super power, etc...Btw Steel is a great offensive stab at the moment due to the massive amount of fairies running around and the ones that resist that don't matter since u-turn is the stab move of choice for genesect's bug typing which allows a pivot into a solution. If it doesn't out speed then it can still hard switch (not the most favorable option, but still a valid choice given certain situations) to a solution. And Genesect works on the basis of its massive coverage options being able to hit everything in the tier for super effective damage with enough power behind it to K.O. even without stab thanks to its ability (which is hit and miss for certain sets and a great boon for others) and versatility of itme choice in band, specs, ebelt, and life orb; even lacking a K.O. it still dents its opponents at the very least making them much easier to k.o. by Genesect's team members, lets not forget that Genesect has 5 other members to help it out and synergy is this things bread and butter. It might not be able to go toe to toe with heatran or A-Marowak but it doesn't have to and thats kind of the point in that it doesn't have to, but can still k.o. its checks and counters if push comes to shove (which isn't really all that common a situation). Lets not forget that trapping it is a waste of time unless you both out speed it and it is in K.O. range of hp fire from magnazone or Earthquake from Dugrtio which is highly unlikely and can hit back with a definate K.O. on magnazone and can break Dugtrio's sash while switching to a revenge killer of its own.
Genesect can beat set up mons if it is running the right set for said mon, but will generally pivot out into something that can either check, hard wall, or counter said set up mon. In any case, a good or even decent Genesect user isn't going to let the opponent set up, in fact they likely won't ever get the chance to effectivily set up without getting k.o.ed by the combination of u-turn and the counter/check that Genesect pivots into or at the very worst hard switches into which threatens your set up mon into being switched out to something else or suffer dieing unless its dugrtio and then you can't switch and will likely die to earthquake (its a given if its excadrill).
Just for the record its possible to lose the majority of your team if you guess the wrong set Genesect is running and it is pretty much free to punch holes in teams until then. Its main goal is not to sweep or wall break in most cases. No, its goal is to cause mind games, pivot, punch holes, and clean up while letting the rest of its team mates take care of what it has either weakened or can not deal with, lets not forget that slow pivoting is a thing now and mean genesect can come in on offensive threats without taking damage and without lossing a team member in the process. True Genesect won't take more than 3 hits from any kind of true offensive mon, but then thats what pivoting and switching is for, and it can easily revenge kill with extreme speed while at the same time, unless it is in the red or has no team members left to switch to and is at low health and unable to kill said revenge killer, can not be revenge killed in kind. Speaking of it only takes neutral from about 3 priority moves and resists all others by virtue of its typing (and even outside of a vacume its typing is still solid with only one weakness, one immunity, and a slew of resistances).
MEGA LUCARIO CAN'T BEAT SALAMENCE AFTER A DD OR +2 DRILL IN SAND, IT'S FINE FOR OU. That's the kind of logic you're using. Doesn't mean Genesect isn't busted.
Agreed. BUT... to give him the benefit of the doubt - do you see any other ways of dealing with DD mence or +2 Drill/Serp behind a sub? Maybe it might help him put things in perspective.
I also find DD to be completely whack but hey maybe I just suck lmao.
Genesect: Shed Shell Heatran, Marowak (but only if it's not Douse Drive).
I listed counters to non-DD sets because it's the least common. That being said, I also maintain Shed Shell because CB Dugtrio is much nastier this gen, so if you aren't running SS, you just get U-turned on and then skullfucked. Genesect has a few more checks (Scarf Heatran against non-Scarf sets), but they all require you to hold them in reserve while you are scouting Genesect (and probably losing some Pokemon in the process), and even then they're not guaranteed. If they switch Heatran in on the revenge when you've revealed Expert Belt or Douse Drive, raise your hand if you are going to hard switch thinking "Well, this could be scarfed, I should probably scout that before I risk losing my pivot."
I don't want to say you're wrong at all with this, but I would just like to play devil's advocate so that you can perhaps explain your stance a bit more clearly for my perspective. In this match up, both mons were the leads, so the match up is entirely based on what Genesect is running rather than later battle circumstances of when it was brought in. While HP Ground was the scenario that unfolded, another plausible scenario was a Scarf/EB Genesect that couldn't touch Heatran, and would use the first turn to U-Turn out (or hard switch, but the main thing is Genesect would leave before Heatran's action). ABR could logically go to his own Heatran or to Keldeo if he anticipated a Fire type move against the Genesect, so SR isn't an illogical choice since getting those Hazards up in those scenarios would probably do more good in the long run than firing off a nulled/resisted Fire move and potentially having to Switch Heatran out afterwards (without confirming if either Heatran might have EP or which would outspeed, or any number of factors affecting the mirror match up). The Heatran wasn't defensive, so it only even survived due to a roll
252 SpA Expert Belt Genesect Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 283-336 (87.6 - 104%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Genesect Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 236-280 (73 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Expert Belt Genesect Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 283-336 (73.3 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The only roll here that seems to immediately work for the turn 1 shown is EB Genesect vs Offensive Stallbreaker (if I'm mistaken, perhaps we could get the sets from the two battlers), as the other sets wouldn't break 90%. While a lower percentage, Heatran had a non-trivial chance to be OHKO'd from full by an HP Ground, and if he'd been KO'd, Dice's choice of response move wouldn't have mattered if it was a Fire type move.
My main thing being, it's very easy in hindsight to say that the Heatran's choice was poor play, but that's only because we saw the (then) unknown variable of HP Ground. There was an equally possible choice of action that would still put Dice at a disadvantage if the Genesect had indeed had a losing match up. For us who know the set, it's a suboptimal play, but in that particular moment, it appears as nothing more than a misprediction regarding what the Genesect would have. It's very easy to say what should have been done, hindsight being 20-20, but it doesn't strike me entirely as being objectively Dice's fault here.
I think it also fair to note, Genesect might be checked decently by Venusaur and Amoongus, but the same way HP Ground and Douse Drive emerged for things like Heatran and Alolawak, is there any reason he couldn't adopt a similar lure option if those became the most common response and it proved needed? Even then, standard Amoongus (no Thick Fat) only seems like it'd be a check if Genesect is scarfed and not running the very viable Ice Beam, and it doesn't even survive that without Max/Max+ for special bulk
+1 252 SpA Genesect Psychic vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 212-250 (58.4 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 4 Atk Genesect Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 144-170 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- 35.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 300-354 (69.6 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 156-184 (36.1 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+1 4 Atk Genesect Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Amoonguss: 268-316 (62.1 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
If I'm not grasping at straws, this just goes back to a common criticism of Genesect: it's never without an option to subvert the meta's choice of answer(s) to it if need be.
You're right that ABR's genesect could've just U-Turned out on Turn 1. You're right that SR, by itself is not even the worst choice. In the end, Dice did get his Stealth Rocks up, which is at least something (kind of function as a suicide lead). But consider these: Why, if Genesect is such a huge threat, both in general and to Dice's team, did he not try to go for the kill? Perhaps more importantly, why did Dice decide to save his basically dead and useless Heatran at the huge cost of momentum, especially when he had the ability to determine which set ABR was running (like you noted only E-belt could break 90% without OHKOing). Attacking with a fire move aside, the optimal way of playing that was both preventing Genesect from crippling Heatran and forfeiting momentum, but instead Dice gave ABR both.
People are also ignoring the massive risk ABR had to take by staying in and going for the HP Ground, when the most likely scenario is Genesect getting OHKO'd if both ABR and Dice decide to go for attacks. It's like keeping your tyranitar on Lando-T or garchomp in gen 6 so you can ice beam, or using natural gift talonflames...that is the whole point of lure sets except this time ABR didn't have the luxury of hitting on a switch. The odds were against the Genesect user even with HP ground.
If Genesect is running Psychic or Zen Headbutt, it loses out on other coverage and becomes easier to handle by the rest of the team. I mean we can say things like greninja, zard x, metagross are virtually impossible to switch into (well m-scizor can switch into m-metagross) if they all carry the exact moveset that allow them to subvert a choice of answer if needed.
Genesect looks broken on paper because everyone assumes that Genesect will always have the momentum and that the Genesect user makes flawless predictions and happens to have given Genesect the exact 4 moves that could sweep the team in front of him. In reality, Genesect will have 4mss, will not always have momentum and be forced to switch out, will be locked into some weak move, be susceptible to revenge kill, be unable to 1v1 the pokemon in front of it and die, etc.
This is why using replays as evidence is bad in suspect discussion. The person who posted the replays only did so because ABR demanded that evidence using actual plays be used instead of paper arguments, and the replay of ABR vs Dice was used because a.) it had the person who asked for that kind of evidence and b.) their opponent was an established player on smogon and c.) it proves that at objectively high level play that Genesect puts in work.
Yes Dice and ABR are going to make mistakes but even high level players make mistakes.
Sure one of them could have done something different but I think the replays demonstrate exactly what it was intended to show ABR: genesect in the hands of competent players will always be threatening and counterplay at even high level can be minimal especially when you're facing against a competent player with Genesect.
I really want to stop discussing replays in general though because it invites cherry-picking and leads nowhere. The posted replays made their points but cherry picking from here or posting more would derail conversation.
(Oh, I made requirements, and the metagame right now is so much more stable and fun and im finding I can be very creative in my building. The meta is enjoyable so much I might not even push for gren/lele bans. Genesect ban is going to make for a great and stable meta imo.)
![GH[O]ST](/forums/media/data/avatars/m/69/69331.jpg?1413405016){kind=avatar}
