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np: Stage 3-4 - Wait why is this so familiar didn't I just go through this what did I
- Thread starter Jumpman16
- Start date
haunter
Banned deucer.
Both the underlined sentences represent my point on Latios, and btw I've always considered it OU material.
And yet the Specs set is maybe the most powerful argument for making Latias Uber. If Latios outclasses that then there are issues with bringing it down. Spamming Draco Meteor off a 130 base Special Attack stat? Ow.
It's gotten to the point that people impulsively switch into their Latias counter ASAP, often making a double switch an apt choice. With their counter seen, you can (hopefully) take it out and give Latias some room to sweep. Latias of today is so much less versatile than it used to be.
Latias becoming Uber would change the metagame so much (Who knows what would happen). Yes I know she changed a lot when she became OU, but this would be a massive shift again if she gets voted Uber. Salamence would go absolutely rampant, NP Ape would come back up in usage, along with Tentacruel to try and counter him.
Does anyone notice that most of the most used Pokemon are not from Generation IV due to either bans or voluntary lack of use?
I was wondering why I didn't care much about participating anymore until I noticed the strong sense of deja vu in the metagame.
I hope Sui--Manaphy is let in so we can at least have a somewhat capable new face.
How can almost all the new Pokemon be either too good or too bad?
Nostalgia is great but I hope we are more open-minded when Generation V rolls around.
I was wondering why I didn't care much about participating anymore until I noticed the strong sense of deja vu in the metagame.
I hope Sui--Manaphy is let in so we can at least have a somewhat capable new face.
How can almost all the new Pokemon be either too good or too bad?
Nostalgia is great but I hope we are more open-minded when Generation V rolls around.
This isn't about being "open-minded" at all. If there really is a lack of Gen 4 Pokémon in OU, blame Game Freak.
@Deluge:
Not really. Quick count:
Generation 1: 11
Generation 2: 10
Generation 3: 8
Generation 4: 16
So Generation 4 is acctually the most populous generation in OU. However, most of the Generation 4 OUs are at the bottom of the usage list. If we only take the top thirty then you get:
Generation 1: 8
Generation 2: 8
Generation 3: 7
Generation 4: 7
Which is pretty equal all around.
Not really. Quick count:
Generation 1: 11
Generation 2: 10
Generation 3: 8
Generation 4: 16
So Generation 4 is acctually the most populous generation in OU. However, most of the Generation 4 OUs are at the bottom of the usage list. If we only take the top thirty then you get:
Generation 1: 8
Generation 2: 8
Generation 3: 7
Generation 4: 7
Which is pretty equal all around.
I know I am a tad bit late, but have you guys tried specially defensive Metagross as a Latias counter? 252/244+ takes 37.6% - 44.5% from Surf and 41.8% - 49.2% from DM. Meanwhile, no attack Metagross deals 51% - 60.3% with Ice Punch if it stays in and 54.3% - 64.2% if it switches out. Ice Punch/Explosion/Meteor Mash/Pursuit is the set.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if it surfs on the switch in,
Metagross (assuming the most defensive 252hp 252 spdef careful which is unlikely) takes 29.4% - 34.6% from Specs Timid Latias.
Next turn it takes another 29.4% - 34.6% (58.8%-69.2% total) while dealing 51% - 60.3% to latias if Ice Punch, 27.2% - 32.5% with pursuit if latias doesn't switch out, and 54.3% - 64.2% if it does.
Next turn (assuming latias didn't switch out) it takes another 29.4% - 34.6% (88.2-103.8) which has a chance of KOing it, and a better chance if it took SR damage, if it survives, it would KOs latias with Ice Punch, but miss the kill with pursuit if it didn't switched out, and KO it with pursuit if it did switch out.
So if the Metagross is running max special defense, and a special defense boosting nature, it still has a chance of not being able to counter Latias. And if it runs that nature, and ev spread, it can't do much else.
Wouldn't the first turn of Leftovers negate SR and then the second gives it enough health to survive? Also, 240 HP/16 Atk/252 SpDef Adamant Scizor will never be 2HKO'd by max SpAtk Timid Choice Specs Surf/Thunderbolt if it switches into SR and with a Choice Band can OHKO with U-turn or practically always OHKO with Pursuit if it switched into SR and switches out. (It has to roll absolute minimum damage for Latias to survive.)
I've thought about using Wish Support Jirachi with a special defensive spread instead of physical, to take on Latias and other random stuff. I wonder if there's enough "random stuff" to justify using it though.
I said top 10 though which last I checked was dominated by pokemon of previous generations and even if you go as far as top 20 you'll probably find it so still.
As you yourself noted, most of the Gen IV Pokemon love to hang around low OU where they'll be promptly voted into BL should they drop down to UU.
Just ask eight of the nine current BLs and Froslass who just barely escaped a fate worse than NU.
So I find it interesting that apart from bans there would be Gen IV Pokemon prominent in both OU and UU.
Which obviously begs the question of why the votes tend to oppose the natural tide and prefer to keep the better new Pokemon out of the DPP metagames.
I strongly suspect a degree of subconcious nostalgia at work especially since the better players who qualify to vote are often veterans of Advance play.
Anyway, it won't be long before I get to test my theory again as Gen V is just around the corner!
And I am certain it will be disruptive in many wonderful ways that will challenge our ability to accept it.
Nice theory, but it's pretty obviously flawed. First, there's no evidence to suggest that nostalgia is the reason for this trend. Each generation has its own sort of design/style imprint on Pokémon building (I don't mean anything cosmetically, by the way), which could explain a generational gap. Example: defensive shift in GSC, especially due to the introduction of the Steel type, and prominent bulky Pokémon like Suicune, Skarmory, and Celebi. DPPt Pokémon are mostly offensively-inclined; lots of powerhouses were brought in, and due to the physical/special split and tutors, a bunch of Pokémon got a hell of a lot better. I'm not here to argue whether DPPt Pokémon are offensively inclined in general, so if you really can't see why I'm arguing that then you should look at the dex.
This late into DPPt (on the cusp of the fifth generation, years later from DPPt's release), we're already familiar with most of the Pokémon, so these Pokémon being 'new' isn't even true. DPPt is played by many more newer players than it is veterans; since the advent of WiFi, the better promotion and reception of the fourth generation, and the games' individual releases, Pokémon has boomed, and a lot of veterans have left. The stats mostly cover the majority: players of varying relative newness. However, the Übers tier has many older Pokémon, most of them being pre-existing bans carried over from past gens. While DPPt is very, very different from, say, RSE, it's easy to see why we aren't uprooting older Pokémon: it's easy to argue that most of the broken ones were banned in previous generations as is.
My last point is that Latias itself is from the 3rd generation. At the time of its unbanning, less people thought it was über than they do now. How does nostalgia explain the shifts in votes on Latias? The voter base is similar each stage. By the way, if you know the people in the voter base, you'll know that most did not play ADV at all or very seriously. But personally I think your 'explanation' isn't really very plausible and really has nothing to do with reality. Just my $0.02. ^^;
This late into DPPt (on the cusp of the fifth generation, years later from DPPt's release), we're already familiar with most of the Pokémon, so these Pokémon being 'new' isn't even true. DPPt is played by many more newer players than it is veterans; since the advent of WiFi, the better promotion and reception of the fourth generation, and the games' individual releases, Pokémon has boomed, and a lot of veterans have left. The stats mostly cover the majority: players of varying relative newness. However, the Übers tier has many older Pokémon, most of them being pre-existing bans carried over from past gens. While DPPt is very, very different from, say, RSE, it's easy to see why we aren't uprooting older Pokémon: it's easy to argue that most of the broken ones were banned in previous generations as is.
My last point is that Latias itself is from the 3rd generation. At the time of its unbanning, less people thought it was über than they do now. How does nostalgia explain the shifts in votes on Latias? The voter base is similar each stage. By the way, if you know the people in the voter base, you'll know that most did not play ADV at all or very seriously. But personally I think your 'explanation' isn't really very plausible and really has nothing to do with reality. Just my $0.02. ^^;
Going with this, the theme behind the 4th Gen Pokémon was "ultimate"; Game Freak basically tried to wring as much power as they could out of the new Pokémon.
These additions also ended up helping the previous generations' Pokémon as well.
Just saw the Latias vote.
Interesting, if somewhat contradictory in any way it is examined.
I had commented on how strange it was for Latias to be enjoying OU while Garchomp was banned for months.
Granted, it fears Tyranitar and Scizor (without HP Fire) but it can easily get Calm Minds against SE Special hits with base 130SpD, 110 Spe and Recover.
Its Specs Draco Meteor hits as hard as Mence with the ability to cripple walls with Trick and when it feels like it, it supports with Screens/Wish like a champ.
So in a sense, the Uber vote is understandable.
On the other hand, Latias survived previous votes and has been on the standard ladder, which does *not* have the new Uber Manaphy, for months.
In particular, the difference between the stage 3-3 and 3-4 Latias result is shocking considering it is just a retest of stage 3-3.
I think the method chosen for resolution is a smart one, get the people who have been playing the standard ladder involved.
But it does beg the question for me, of how representative the opinions of the suspect test voting pools are especially when they get small due to lack of interest.
Do the suspect tests attract people who want a change more than people who are happy with the current metagame?
The first Garchomp Uber vote was an overwhelming 79% whereas it was just barely voted Uber in the following tests as more players came out in force.
Now it seems to me that people have been quite content playing against and using Latias when a 60% Uber vote pops out of nowhere in stage 3-4.
I think there is still room for reflection and evaluation of how the process is carried out because some things do not add up to me.
I don't think thirty-six people should decide the game that hundreds play especially if the thirty-six are not a microcosm of the inklings of the community at large.
In fact, in the absence of the ideal large voter pool, I'd rather there be a certain one[few] person[people] of strong and consistent opinion than multiple small pools of vacillating opinion over several suspect tests.
If we're asking different people, or people who can't make up their minds, we'll keep getting different answers.
Interesting, if somewhat contradictory in any way it is examined.
I had commented on how strange it was for Latias to be enjoying OU while Garchomp was banned for months.
Granted, it fears Tyranitar and Scizor (without HP Fire) but it can easily get Calm Minds against SE Special hits with base 130SpD, 110 Spe and Recover.
Its Specs Draco Meteor hits as hard as Mence with the ability to cripple walls with Trick and when it feels like it, it supports with Screens/Wish like a champ.
So in a sense, the Uber vote is understandable.
On the other hand, Latias survived previous votes and has been on the standard ladder, which does *not* have the new Uber Manaphy, for months.
In particular, the difference between the stage 3-3 and 3-4 Latias result is shocking considering it is just a retest of stage 3-3.
I think the method chosen for resolution is a smart one, get the people who have been playing the standard ladder involved.
But it does beg the question for me, of how representative the opinions of the suspect test voting pools are especially when they get small due to lack of interest.
Do the suspect tests attract people who want a change more than people who are happy with the current metagame?
The first Garchomp Uber vote was an overwhelming 79% whereas it was just barely voted Uber in the following tests as more players came out in force.
Now it seems to me that people have been quite content playing against and using Latias when a 60% Uber vote pops out of nowhere in stage 3-4.
I think there is still room for reflection and evaluation of how the process is carried out because some things do not add up to me.
I don't think thirty-six people should decide the game that hundreds play especially if the thirty-six are not a microcosm of the inklings of the community at large.
In fact, in the absence of the ideal large voter pool, I'd rather there be a certain one[few] person[people] of strong and consistent opinion than multiple small pools of vacillating opinion over several suspect tests.
If we're asking different people, or people who can't make up their minds, we'll keep getting different answers.
The reason Latias is currently on the Standard ladder is that, at one point in a previous suspect test, it was voted OU. This came into force.
Afterwards, it was again nominated as a suspect, to move from OU back to Ubers. That is where we are currently.
The 60% Latias Uber vote did not 'pop out of nowhere'. Latias was probobly not being voted uber as much, because almost everyone was using Garchomp, with it's useage at almost 80% on the suspect ladder. Scarfchomp shut down most Latias sets, and HabanChomp shut down ScarfLatias, by taking it's attack the OHKO'ing with Outrage.
Now Garchomp is gone, there is one less check for Latias [Latios was the second check, Skymin being the third], and, as a result, Latias' Uber vote has been rising as less and less suspects remain.
It may be 'Less Uber' than the rest of the suspects, but it seems that it may well still be 'Uber'.
Afterwards, it was again nominated as a suspect, to move from OU back to Ubers. That is where we are currently.
The 60% Latias Uber vote did not 'pop out of nowhere'. Latias was probobly not being voted uber as much, because almost everyone was using Garchomp, with it's useage at almost 80% on the suspect ladder. Scarfchomp shut down most Latias sets, and HabanChomp shut down ScarfLatias, by taking it's attack the OHKO'ing with Outrage.
Now Garchomp is gone, there is one less check for Latias [Latios was the second check, Skymin being the third], and, as a result, Latias' Uber vote has been rising as less and less suspects remain.
It may be 'Less Uber' than the rest of the suspects, but it seems that it may well still be 'Uber'.
Like I said before, I think that it is the people more than the situation. A bunch of people came onto the 3-4 vote who weren't in the 3-3 vote. A lot of these people have wanted Latias gone for quite a while.
When is the Standard SEXP voting thing happening, anyway?
When is the Standard SEXP voting thing happening, anyway?
Lockeness
(e^(i╥))+1=0
I think that Latias is OU and I also think a lot of people voted it Uber because of manaphy. I think Jumpman16 said that a lot of the voters judged it uber by the support characteristic. It's also interesting to see how the opinion has slowly become more uber in regard to Latias. 2 of Latias primary checks are OU- Scizor and Tyranitar. Garchomp is slower than Latias and it is possible for Latias to revenge kill non scarf Garchomp with Draco meteor. In my opinion Latias counters Garchomp not the other way around. Latios and skymin are both obviously Uber and they pretty much counter everything save Blissey. To say that they have kept the OU vote for Latias low ,and only her, is strange- If they counter Latias so well then why didn't they counter Garchomp into the OU range? Latios has Draco meteor and Skymin has flinchhax and Seed Flare. Garchomp can be KOed or weakened by both pokemon especially when it comes to revenge killing.
Latias has been OU for a year now and in all of the tests she has recieved a vote in the OU margin- except for the last round when it reached 60%. Now I know that the Uber level is defined as 65% of the votes ,but Latias has been OU for so long in the same enviroment that it begs the question- why was Latias voted so closely to the Uber level in the 3-4 round but not in the 3-3 round? Did over the course of a month Latias become more uber? This logic seems flawed to me. Was the defining factor Manaphy or was it simply new voters. Was it bias or did suddenly everyone wake up to find Latias uber? I believe this is a valid question and it requires a valid answer. I know I am personally scratching my head over the whole situation.
Latias has been OU for a year now and in all of the tests she has recieved a vote in the OU margin- except for the last round when it reached 60%. Now I know that the Uber level is defined as 65% of the votes ,but Latias has been OU for so long in the same enviroment that it begs the question- why was Latias voted so closely to the Uber level in the 3-4 round but not in the 3-3 round? Did over the course of a month Latias become more uber? This logic seems flawed to me. Was the defining factor Manaphy or was it simply new voters. Was it bias or did suddenly everyone wake up to find Latias uber? I believe this is a valid question and it requires a valid answer. I know I am personally scratching my head over the whole situation.
