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np: UU - Can't Touch This
- Thread starter reachzero
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Subseeding Jumpluff accomplishes much more than just annoying your opponent. It prevents opponents from setting up (assuming a set of Sleep Powder/Sub/Leech Seed/Encore), forces switches, which heavily damages the opponent's team once entry hazards are set up, and generally wears down the opposing team. Though simple, annoying as hell, and very time consuming, it's an effective strategy nonetheless.
About Rain Dance teams: though they are still a pretty dominant force in this metagame, it seems that people have adjusted very well in keeping them at bay (with the help of this thread it seems). After the metagame adjusted to Porygon-Z and Cresselia, people have been learning to fight Rain Dance teams like we've been doing the past 10 months after Abomasnow was banned, which was the big trigger in letting them run free. Nowadays it seems that teams don't have to go to ridiculous lengths to stopping them, but just enough so that they don't completely power through their team. Now they have become a bit uncommon. So basically, the metagame adjusted, and Rain Dance teams, in my opinion, are not dominant, nor is any aspect of them bannable.
Nas
Banned deucer.
I've been playing around with Rain lately and I have to say, so far I've been very underwhelmed...Any half-decent player that isn't completely unprepared for it can beat it, but that's precisely the thing; so many people seem to be unprepared for it.
Oh and combining Spikes with Rain is particularly useful when facing teams that rely on pokes like Milotic and Registeel to stall out the 8 turns, but unfortunately that limits you to only 3 Rain abusers. (not to say that isn't enough)
Oh and combining Spikes with Rain is particularly useful when facing teams that rely on pokes like Milotic and Registeel to stall out the 8 turns, but unfortunately that limits you to only 3 Rain abusers. (not to say that isn't enough)
You could use Qwilfish to spike and also have it abuse rain a bit. You could also Boom on something you don't like. Spikes/Waterfall/Return/Explosion would work.
Sounds Good just maybe Rain Dance on there for just before you go boom
O so that's been you who has been trying that set out hahahahaha
Haze is your teams worst enemy but man when i saw you play other teams it was almost just not fair at all..once cresselia got that iron defense boost...it was literally impenatrable...nice strategy btw and it worked extremely with mismagius to take your counters away...really nice team
Passing Defense boosts to Cress isn't fair without haze
What Golden sun said here i think Rain dance >> Return on that set.
Hence the increase in Haze milotic lol...not for the defense boost pass but because of the bulky calm mind set
That's right, you wouldn't. But I would.
Back in the day I used to hate everyone who used stall, SubSeeders, Entry hazards....but really I think everyone has moved passed the "THIS IS A CHEAP TACTIC EFF YOU MAN" stage. Even me.
Also, that Cresselia pass will definitely destroy anyone who isn't prepared for it. Like basically ALL rain teams.
EDIT: I was referring to on Smogon, not necessarily on the ladder.
Also, that Cresselia pass will definitely destroy anyone who isn't prepared for it. Like basically ALL rain teams.
EDIT: I was referring to on Smogon, not necessarily on the ladder.
Not really. There are still some definite d bags on the ladder but eh what can you do. At least they're less then before.
Even the best stall teams fail spectacularly against a good wall-breaker. If you cant beat stall, it just means your offense isnt good enough.
Even though I've long passed the stage where I say "f*ck you stall, what a cheap tactic", I still believe it's an extremely negative style of play, going against the 'spirit of the game' if you like. You could compare it to chelsea v barcelona.
Even though I've long passed the stage where I say "f*ck you stall, what a cheap tactic", I still believe it's an extremely negative style of play, going against the 'spirit of the game' if you like. You could compare it to chelsea v barcelona.
What about Roar / Whirlwind?
I hate Stall myself, but to be fair I think it's a perfectly valid (if extremely annoying) strategy, and same goes for Rain Dance / Sun / Linoone teams / whatever.
Melee, anyone?
But seriously, what "spirit" of the game? If stall wasn't meant to exist, then why are there really bulky Pokémon? Recover? Leftovers? Toxic? You could say that these are just hand-me-downs from other JRPGs, but then what about Sleep Talk? Entry hazards? Roar/Whirlwind?
But seriously, what "spirit" of the game? If stall wasn't meant to exist, then why are there really bulky Pokémon? Recover? Leftovers? Toxic? You could say that these are just hand-me-downs from other JRPGs, but then what about Sleep Talk? Entry hazards? Roar/Whirlwind?
Most teams try to counter Cresselia with offensive pokemon such as Absol, Drapion, and Scyther, and less with defensive pokemon like Haze Milotic and Roar Steelix because when facing Cresselia, you need it out of the match as soon as possible. By just forcing it out, yes you have countered it, but with Levitate, no Stealth Rock weakness, and awesome defensive stats, it will just come back in later (however, in this current discussion, the Iron Defense passer must do it again).
I don't understand why Drapion is 29th in usage and Skuntank is 94th. Skuntank has served me as a MUCH better killer of ghosts and psychics. Even though it only has slightly higher attack and 0 HP/0 Sp. Def versions take about 3% less on average than 0/0 Drapion from SubCM +1 Mismagius Thunderbolt, the addition of Sucker Punch aids a lot in helping Skuntank come out on top. The mindgames involved with Sucker Punch, Taunt, and Pursuit put ghosts and Cresselia in a very tight position. Skuntank, like Drapion, can also outspeed bulky Froslass, Taunt, and Pursuit, allowing it only one layer every time Skuntank comes in. Explosion is probably the best move in the game, taking out bulky waters, ground types, and Venusaur (Skuntank completely stops any defensive version with Taunt, and can take anything from Venusaur, even Jolly Life Orb EQs). A set with Crunch/Pursuit/Taunt/Explosion with a Lum Berry can take out Rotom (except Specs Thunderbolt) and Mismagius guaranteed, and switch in on Cresselia more freely. Drapion has an awesome 110 base defense stat sure, but when it comes to eating ghosts, stopping Psychics, and being an overall excellent team player, Skuntank does it better.
Honestly, Encore is so underrated. It gives you an auto-win against every slow, bulky set up sweeper in the entire tier. I honestly don't know why more people don't employ Encore users. Or even Taunt users; I used a Taunt/NP Houndoom way back during the beginning of the Yanmega metagame, and its ability to set up on and beat Chansey was really awesome. It would do even better with all the Cresselia running around.
Unfair was to pass Blissey some Barriers from Mr. Mime and proceed to CM up on OU. Even Lucario couldn't KO Blissey after at least 2 Barriers. Salamence? Who?
But that's in OU...
About defense passing: yes, i always thought it's underrated. Say: you pass Cosmic Powers from Solrock to something like Regigigas. Really, good luck trying to break it's subs while Regigigas happily stalls 5 turns.
Or Sub DD Feraligatr, who DDs the hell out behind it's bulky subs.
Passing Amnesia to Curse Aggron or Regirock(damn, this one becomes near unbeatable with a Amnesia) with Sandstorm... Barrier/Iron Defense to Cresselia as said earlier...
Defense passing is good if you know how to make use of it.
The problem is exactly Haze, because no atk passing means you can't defeat the Hazer before it screws you up. Against Roar/Whirlwind, there's always SD Cradily who appreciates defense boosts and Seed Bombs the hell out of Milotic(the only really used Hazer) while being immune to phazing.
But that's in OU...
About defense passing: yes, i always thought it's underrated. Say: you pass Cosmic Powers from Solrock to something like Regigigas. Really, good luck trying to break it's subs while Regigigas happily stalls 5 turns.
Or Sub DD Feraligatr, who DDs the hell out behind it's bulky subs.
Passing Amnesia to Curse Aggron or Regirock(damn, this one becomes near unbeatable with a Amnesia) with Sandstorm... Barrier/Iron Defense to Cresselia as said earlier...
Defense passing is good if you know how to make use of it.
The problem is exactly Haze, because no atk passing means you can't defeat the Hazer before it screws you up. Against Roar/Whirlwind, there's always SD Cradily who appreciates defense boosts and Seed Bombs the hell out of Milotic(the only really used Hazer) while being immune to phazing.
Solution: Pass to something with Taunt. Taunt/CM Missy with a couple of Iron Defenses behind it?
Nas
Banned deucer.
Yesterday when I was laddering with my Rain team I played someone with a Amnesia/Iron Defense Gorebyss, was that you?
Yuggles
hey that second guy isn't too bad
All of those strategies involve multiple pokemon, moves, etc. also a
sceptile with defense isn't very threatening at all considering it has a ton of weaknesses plus fire and ice hitting its special defense..
no that's not quite what I said, stall teams are _somewhat_ annoying but at least they use a whole team dedicated to wearing down opponents. I've never seen a stall team with a full (or even 4-5) sets of 'annoyers'
I'm aware of all of what you said. However Heysup posted as if annoying the hell out of people is the main benefit to Jumpluff, which it's not and shouldn't be. Yes it forces switches but outside of Sleep Powder/Encroe that's all from people just getting pissed off by repetition.
Your last line is great, annoying + wasting time + a strategy that a rock could pull off = why would I want to do that?
He said it in his post: it's effective. It works.
As for Sceptile: Few pokes in UU use Ice Beam as a move that actually threatens Sceptile. In fact, there are only two ice types in UU: Cloyster and Froslass, both of which are usually seen in the lead spot and not attackers. Then you have the weak Ice Beams coming from Bulky Waters, but they don't like staying in on Sceptile anyways. Hidden Power Ice is only seen on a select few special sweepers (Some Raikou, some Sceptile) that don't get STAB on it anyways. More Fire-type moves are used, but even then the ability to take most any hit other than Fire moves is greatly greatly appreciated and allows you to succeed in fulfilling SubSeeding's effective strategy.
another key counter to sub seeding is U-turn...but that probably varies on who does it since your sceptile is recieving defense boost...also encore stops your set but we all know encore stops almsot every and any pokemon trying to set up not increasing speed
After further testing of Rain Dance on the ladder, I see why people think, mistakenly (in my opinion), that rain is broken.
It owns the ladder. Everything that owns the ladder = broken right? Wrong. Ladder teams, such as Rain or similarly Hail make it very easy for "any" player to beat any other "bad" player who doesn't prepare for Rain because it is simply an algorithm. The major case here, is that people DON'T prepare for Rain. Get over it, you need to prepare for Rain the same way you need to prepare for Raikou, Swellow, etc. Every time I won "easily" I actually yelled at my screen "WHY DON'T YOU HAVE ANY RAIN COUNTERS?!?!" especially on stall.
When i played good players, it was usually a close match, but I would actually lose more often than not against a smart / prepared player (against a serious team like Rolfkip's, who I would rarely lose to with my "main" team).
Mindless ladder wins =/= broken. Mindless ladder wins = people are unprepared for a common threat / are dumb.
It owns the ladder. Everything that owns the ladder = broken right? Wrong. Ladder teams, such as Rain or similarly Hail make it very easy for "any" player to beat any other "bad" player who doesn't prepare for Rain because it is simply an algorithm. The major case here, is that people DON'T prepare for Rain. Get over it, you need to prepare for Rain the same way you need to prepare for Raikou, Swellow, etc. Every time I won "easily" I actually yelled at my screen "WHY DON'T YOU HAVE ANY RAIN COUNTERS?!?!" especially on stall.
When i played good players, it was usually a close match, but I would actually lose more often than not against a smart / prepared player (against a serious team like Rolfkip's, who I would rarely lose to with my "main" team).
Mindless ladder wins =/= broken. Mindless ladder wins = people are unprepared for a common threat / are dumb.
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