np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice

[jamashawalker]

I think the excessive priority may have a lot to do with the Scarf Staraptor on every team and the Scarf Heracross on half of them, as well. Timid Scarf Jolteon is pretty intense though....and when you say Haze+Dragon Tail you are referring to both moves on one set? If such a set ever makes it to an analysis (I doubt it would) it should be referred to as "Non-BP teams are really good in this meta"!

yeah im referring to both on one set...its really annoying to see such lengths to counter lol..idk what to call it...would that back the arguement of broken or just adjustment to handling BP?

 

[Heysup]

I guess it's just an option but it seems lazy / desperate to me. There are definitely better ones.....and they've even been listed in this thread.

 

[Scoopapa]

yeah im referring to both on one set...its really annoying to see such lengths to counter lol..idk what to call it...would that back the arguement of broken or just adjustment to handling BP?

It kind of reminds me of Foresight + Rapid Spin, only instead of countering something that 99% of teams carry, you're countering something that maybe 10% of teams carry. Also, instead of supporting teammates who are very powerful without SR (especially in UU where things might have gotten there just because of SR weakness), you are just preventing a team with a slightly gimp bulky water from dying to that 10% of teams.

I would call this evidence of BP's brokenness if it was the only way to deal with Smash Pass but as many other players have been pointing out, there are enough other ways to do so that you can run offense, balance, or stall and still be okay. I haven't used SmashPass myself, so it's hard to judge whether my lack of trouble with it is an indicator of balance or just favorable team matchups. I can mention some things to consider when trying to counter smashpass.

-Entry hazards + priority stops Smeargle
-Insomnia, Vital Spirit, and Magic Mirror stop Spore from Smeargle, which means something has to take a hit at -1
-Technitop stops Smeargle
-Haze stops Gorebyss
-A fast Taunt stops any of the crucial steps in the process. Weavile can do this and kill Azelf, Espeon, and Nidoking,
-Something to stop screens + a strong Choice Band or Specs pokemon makes life difficult for Smash Pass. Escavalier is particularly good. I use a Choice Specs Empoleon, which OHKOes pretty much every Smash Pass recipient I've ever seen.
-Something that lures Nidoking on the turn of Baton Pass + the fat pink blob will stop Smash Pass, unless they get inordinately lucky with Focus Blast.
-Counter Boosting can work, as can sub punch.
-In general, if your team if capable of applying significant pressure, then use that to prevent their setup as much as possible. An offense team needs an answer to dual screens anyway, even if it's just to kill the screener before both screens are up. If your team doesn't apply much direct pressure, it should have measures in place to stop boosting sweepers, anyway, and Smash Pass should only be a minor addendum to your general strategy. I have experienced having teams that usually lost to smashpass, but to be honest those were only the teams that didn't have any plan to speak of.

Smash Pass is certainly something you have to prepare for, and there may not be auto-win strategies that don't require a bit of over-compensation. However, reasonable preparation and smart playing can at least put you on an even footing with the smashpass team, which is all you can really ask for.

 

[sax king]

Not only that, but huge baton pass chains are impossible to stop too. Today, I faced someone who had a huge baton pass chain (with pokemon like Mr. Mime who can't be Roared out). At the end was an Espeon. Because it had shit like Iron Defense, a Sub, and Agility, it just started to CM. Then, after it had +4 Def, +2 Speed, +6 SAtk, and +6 SDef, it swept my team with Stored Power (which is a STAB 380 BP attack coming from a +6 SAtk). I mean, how do you stop Espeon in BP chains?

 

[WinterChevalier]

I think I may have went up against the same BP chain team. It had crap in it like Mr. Mime and Mawile, it was friggin ridiculous =/

 

[shrang]

Eviolite helps Wynaut a lot, but I wonder how much the speed loss and Leftovers loss will really hurt Wynaut compared to Wobbuffet. All told I think Wobbuffet is clearly preferable as long as both are allowed, but if and when Wobbuffet is banned, I think Wynaut is worth considering as a plug-in on Wobbuffet teams.

Leftovers is probably better, since you'll be outspeeding the threats you need to outspeed and Encoring moves that won't hurt you much anyway. Wynaut can still put up some decent bulk onto one side even with the Speed.

 

[Nas]

Not only that, but huge baton pass chains are impossible to stop too. Today, I faced someone who had a huge baton pass chain (with pokemon like Mr. Mime who can't be Roared out). At the end was an Espeon. Because it had shit like Iron Defense, a Sub, and Agility, it just started to CM. Then, after it had +4 Def, +2 Speed, +6 SAtk, and +6 SDef, it swept my team with Stored Power (which is a STAB 380 BP attack coming from a +6 SAtk). I mean, how do you stop Espeon in BP chains?

Don't let them set up. I think someone already mentioned it in this thread, but the best way to counter BP teams is to constantly put pressure on them, that way they don't get a chance to set up. You can tell right away if you're playing a BP team from team preview, so there's really no way you can get caught off guard. I'm running a team with no Haze, no Taunt, no priority, and no Roar, but I haven't had any trouble with BP teams because I just pounded them with hard hitters and they couldn't get their chain going.

BP teams force you to play smart but if you have a well built team you shouldn't have any trouble.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

The problem occurs when you only run one or two quick mons and smeargle sleeps one before setting up. Then they pass to the appropriate defense booster and it gets real hard with subs blocking crits.

 

[Gerard]

-Entry hazards + priority stops Smeargle
Espeon Bounces back all of them
-Insomnia, Vital Spirit, and Magic Mirror stop Spore from Smeargle, which means something has to take a hit at -1
From those only Espeon (and maybe Honchcrow/Murcrow) are common, Magic Coat is better at stopping it but you need to have a poke in already
-Technitop stops Smeargle
Smeargle spored something
Smeargle used Cotton Guard (top switch in)
Top use Match Punch (it does bellow 60%)
Smargle BP to Espeon or Mime and start setting up again
(maybe not too common but what smeagle passes is never obvious, he can also BP right away if he feels like tp is coming)
-Haze stops Gorebyss Tecnicaly the whole BP chain
Taunt stops haze (but still haze is the most reliable stop to BP)
-A fast Taunt stops any of the crucial steps in the process. Weavile can do this and kill Azelf, Espeon, and Nidoking
Ninjask Protect
Ninjask BP +1 Spd to espeon (or just X-sissor since weavile has the bulk of a paper bag)
Espeon BP to anything to take weavile (maybe mawile...)
-Something to stop screens + a strong Choice Band or Specs pokemon makes life difficult for Smash Pass. Escavalier is particularly good. I use a Choice Specs Empoleon, which OHKOes pretty much every Smash Pass recipient I've ever seen.
Hard hitting is great, until you are stocked on a ressisted move so they can start setting, also Escavalier is slow (spore), still probably a nice answer
-Something that lures Nidoking on the turn of Baton Pass + the fat pink blob will stop Smash Pass, unless they get inordinately lucky with Focus Blast.
Most of the times the final rcipient is Espeon in full BP chains, and Stored Power at +12 is gonna hurt anything (true for Shell Smash pass, but chansey is suspicious herself so...)
-Counter Boosting can work, as can sub punch.
True (the first), Psyquic and ghost pokes laughs at second (you know the most common passers (Mew, Mime, Espeon, Drifloon, ...))
-In general, if your team if capable of applying significant pressure, then use that to prevent their setup as much as possible. An offense team needs an answer to dual screens anyway, even if it's just to kill the screener before both screens are up. If your team doesn't apply much direct pressure, it should have measures in place to stop boosting sweepers, anyway, and Smash Pass should only be a minor addendum to your general strategy. I have experienced having teams that usually lost to smashpass, but to be honest those were only the teams that didn't have any plan to speak of.

Smash Pass is certainly something you have to prepare for, and there may not be auto-win strategies that don't require a bit of over-compensation. However, reasonable preparation and smart playing can at least put you on an even footing with the smashpass team, which is all you can really ask for.

 

[sax king]

The problem occurs when you only run one or two quick mons and smeargle sleeps one before setting up. Then they pass to the appropriate defense booster and it gets real hard with subs blocking crits.

QFT
And if you're running stall, you might as well say gg right then because you can't win. and I know you have to keep the pressure on the other teams, but Texas Cloverleaf is right. Smeargle puts you to sleep, sets up, and then passes. Hell, it's easy enough just for Ninjask to pass to something bulky. Then they set up the defense boosts. When they predict a roar, they use baton pass and go right to Espeon for it to be reflected right back at you. If they see a Dragon Tail, they're just going to sub up (and you can't break subs if they're at +6 Defenses).

People say pokemon like SD Escavalier work due to its STAB super effective attacks on Espeon and the fact that it can set up alongside BPers, but
A) They can always attack you, and all it takes is one fire attack
B) Smeargle has Spore. It puts you to sleep, it sets up a Shell Smash, then it passes to ANYTHING with a neutral ore supereffective attack.

 

[Leman]

The commonality I'm seeing with all these "BP is broken" argument's are: "Espeon prevents things like Roar, Taunt and Status." and "Smeargle can Spore really easily and set something up." Wouldn't it mean then those two are the culprits?

 

[Saxon5]

Don't let them set up. I think someone already mentioned it in this thread, but the best way to counter BP teams is to constantly put pressure on them, that way they don't get a chance to set up. You can tell right away if you're playing a BP team from team preview, so there's really no way you can get caught off guard. I'm running a team with no Haze, no Taunt, no priority, and no Roar, but I haven't had any trouble with BP teams because I just pounded them with hard hitters and they couldn't get their chain going.

BP teams force you to play smart but if you have a well built team you shouldn't have any trouble.

I agree with this... I have no idea why people think smashpass is broken. There are moves like taunt, dragon tail, roar, whirlwind, and haze for a reason. Or like above, you can pound the heck out of them :)

I see sometime in the future espeon being sent to OU or BL anyways. Magic bouce doesn't prevent dragon tail or circle throw from working(which are the best phazing moves anyway.)

 

[jamashawalker]

I agree with this... I have no idea why people think smashpass is broken. There are moves like taunt, dragon tail, roar, whirlwind, and haze for a reason. Or like above, you can pound the heck out of them :)

I see sometime in the future espeon being sent to OU or BL anyways. Magic bouce doesn't prevent dragon tail or circle throw from working(which are the best phazing moves anyway.)

Taunt, roar, whirlwind, are all beat by espeon and not many pokes have a combination of dragontail + roar/whirlwind..and then a combination haze+roar/dragontail...its not that simple to add those to your teams sometimes..

smash pass so far has been easier to handle because so many teams are prepared for them now, random sets, more sub and taunt users and way more priority users...but I wouldnt say some teams are just prepared for smashpass..there's alot of choice scarfers and chanseys running around

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Taunt, roar, whirlwind, are all beat by espeon and not many pokes have a combination of dragontail + roar/whirlwind..and then a combination haze+roar/dragontail...its not that simple to add those to your teams sometimes..

smash pass so far has been easier to handle because so many teams are prepared for them now, random sets, more sub and taunt users and way more priority users...but I wouldnt say some teams are just prepared for smashpass..there's alot of choice scarfers and chanseys running around

well, clearly if people are whining about being swept by smashpass, just put a Murkrow on the team. Trolls the fuck out of SmashPass with Priority Haze like no other.

 

[iSkittles]

Murkrow isn't just dead weight either, it can also stall quite a few things out as long as it's not taking SE hits, or perish trap rather well.
It can also do other things with all its Prankster shenanigans.

 

[Kingclown50]

The commonality I'm seeing with all these "BP is broken" argument's are: "Espeon prevents things like Roar, Taunt and Status." and "Smeargle can Spore really easily and set something up." Wouldn't it mean then those two are the culprits?

Yes. Or at least it should. I recently tested a BP team, and like noted earlier, the amount of people with multiple Taunt, Haze, and Dragon Tail users (especially on the same set, like Milotic and Blastoise) is pretty unbelievable. I got a total of 2 wins in about 30 minutes of battling (~8-10 battles, not a very good record). One of them I basically had to put 0 effort into to be honest. Mawile actually handles Milotic very well with Sub + Taunt + BP, but it has to predict which move Milotic will use first.

I STILL believe banning ONLY Espeon (from the Baton Passers; Smeargle isn't really an issue without Espeon. No more so than in 4th Gen OU) will balance BP with the rest of the playstyles, as people are currently having to commit a large portion of the team to prevent BP, when, without Espeon, a simple Roar will stop every single Baton Pass user not named Mr. Mime and will phaze every recipient not named Cradily or Octillery.

 

[Gerard]

I STILL believe banning ONLY Espeon (from the Baton Passers; Smeargle isn't really an issue without Espeon. No more so than in 4th Gen OU) will balance BP with the rest of the playstyles, as people are currently having to commit a large portion of the team to prevent BP, when, without Espeon, a simple Roar will stop every single Baton Pass user not named Mr. Mime and will phaze every recipient not named Cradily or Octillery.

Agree, Espeon is not broken by itslef, but BP is pushing him to the edge, Whirlwind/Taunt/Roar/etc... where always reliable anwsers to BP teams, now Espeon just laughs at all of them, without him, there wouldn't really be a lot of complains about BP (maybe about SmashPass but without espeon it wouldn't be as deadly)

 

[uberheracross]

so is kyurem now uber or only allowed in OU and above?

Drought out UU is pretty good however im not so sure how well it will perform against the rain and sand bad boys such as thundurus, excadrill and rotom-w in OU.

 

[.I Wish You Well.]

I think Kyurem is BL if i'm not mistaken.

 

[Gerard]

so is kyurem now uber or only allowed in OU and above?

Drought out UU is pretty good however im not so sure how well it will perform against the rain and sand bad boys such as thundurus, excadrill and rotom-w in OU.

Kyurem and Drought are banned from UU (which means they are still usable in every tier above, that is OU (and Ubers))

 

[ToF]

You people don't realize that you can't put heavy pressure on Baton Pass chains when they have durable ass Pokemon like Celebi and Mew that can tank hits pretty well. And Espeon ruins any attempt of Taunt stopping the chain so yeah, if you people are smart, just boot the move. Its so annoying to play against...

Edit: Baton Pass fucking sucks, I've lost 4 times on the ladder and it's been to stupid bullshit Baton Pass teams each time, whether passing Quiver Dances or fucking a full-fledged team. Get this shit out of the tier, god fucking damn.

 

[asdfrozen]

What's the best dual screener? I've been using Uxie (in conjunction with Wobb and a bunch of setup sweepers), but now I'm thinking that maybe Cress/Deoxys might be better.

 

[Gerard]

What's the best dual screener? I've been using Uxie (in conjunction with Wobb and a bunch of setup sweepers), but now I'm thinking that maybe Cress/Deoxys might be better.

Uxie has bulk and memento
Cresselia has bulk and Lunar Dance
Deo has bulk and hazzards
Azelf can taunt and is fast as hell (and SR)

those are some of the best screeners, so accoridng to what your team wants

 

[Jubilee]

You people don't realize that you can't put heavy pressure on Baton Pass chains when they have durable ass Pokemon like Celebi and Mew that can tank hits pretty well. And Espeon ruins any attempt of Taunt stopping the chain so yeah, if you people are smart, just boot the move. Its so annoying to play against...

Edit: Baton Pass fucking sucks, I've lost 4 times on the ladder and it's been to stupid bullshit Baton Pass teams each time, whether passing Quiver Dances or fucking a full-fledged team. Get this shit out of the tier, god fucking damn.

Agreed.
Especially when Pokemon like Mew and Celebi have access to moves like Barrier (Mew only) and Calm Mind (they both have recovery too, although they don't normally carry it if they're running a BP set), also not even counting if they're behind screens. Mew even has Taunt to prevent Pokemon like Milotic from hazing you... Espeon makes things near impossible once they get the chain going and have boost under their belt. Not to mention it nearly OHKOs everything with Store Power.
I'll be very happy once and if this gets out of the tier. :)

 

[Heysup]

Uxie has bulk and memento
Cresselia has bulk and Lunar Dance
Deo has bulk and hazzards
Azelf can taunt and is fast as hell (and SR)

those are some of the best screeners, so accoridng to what your team wants

Espeon is good too, not Tauntable and prevents hazards.