NP: UU - Zero to Hero

[FlareBlitz]

If we let Heracross stay in the tier, I honestly think we should drop Gallade back down too for consistency's sake, because Heracross is much, much better than Gallade is nearly every relevant aspect. Yes I know they're "different Pokemon", but I have not come across any argument that would even remotely begin to explain why Gallade is BL material while Heracross is not.

I really think the biggest aspect of this issue is that stall was extremely prevalent in the Gallade era, while being very uncommon in this metagame, leading people to ban Gallade then while believing that Heracross is "just right" now (and I realize that this opinion is pretty evenly split currently, but just for the sake of argument let's assume that this is a community consensus). I'm not sure if this is an okay thing or not, but such inconsistency really rankles.

 

[Synre]

I agree with Flare's logic there, though as I've pointed out on IRC a few times when discussing this with people, I for one did not vote in the period Gallade went BL because I had finals during the voting period, and I would have voted it UU. I'm surprised by how many people have differing opinions on the two Pokemon, though - the only real significant difference to me is that Heracross has nominally better abilities in exchange for having no priority and typing that, while better in a vacuum, is a slightly worse fit for the metagame. I think if you were to drop Gallade down people probably still wouldn't like it, though - we play in a very Venusaur-centric metagame right now(which is part of what keeps Heracross in check, since he has similar counters to Venusaur in many cases) and Gallade still has better typing to rip through that, even ignoring Shadow Sneak. Psychic-STAB sucks in almost every metagame but it's sure nice in this one, as long as you're a Pokemon that isn't utterly decimated by existing on the field at the same time as Spiritomb.

I don't think either Pokemon is gamebreakingly amazing, but both are very good. Would have liked to see both stay in the tier.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

If we let Heracross stay in the tier, I honestly think we should drop Gallade back down too for consistency's sake, because Heracross is much, much better than Gallade is nearly every relevant aspect. Yes I know they're "different Pokemon", but I have not come across any argument that would even remotely begin to explain why Gallade is BL material while Heracross is not.

I really think the biggest aspect of this issue is that stall was extremely prevalent in the Gallade era, while being very uncommon in this metagame, leading people to ban Gallade then while believing that Heracross is "just right" now (and I realize that this opinion is pretty evenly split currently, but just for the sake of argument let's assume that this is a community consensus). I'm not sure if this is an okay thing or not, but such inconsistency really rankles.

What that's extremely backwards logic. Gallade was banned because it destroyed stall (which is still used quite frequently thank you) while not being completely dead against offense because it's only exploitable weakness was dealt with by a priority attack which made it much more difficult to revenge kill from an offensive standpoint. Just because two Pokemon share a secondary typing and a couple moves doesn't mean just because if one is ou/uu the other one should be too. Shit look at Salamence/Dragonite. The only quantifiable differences Salamence has over Dnite are some speed and special attack. Dnite, much like heracross and gallade, has things it does better than mence. Mence was banned easily but you don't see anyone arguing we should ban Dragonite. If 20 base speed can make the difference between Uber and OU I don't see how you can call it an inconsistency when two Pokemon with completely different typings and movepools are in different tiers.

 

[FlareBlitz]

It's not backwards logic; it would merely be unsupported logic if I hadn't substantiated it...which I did already.
If you check my post a page or two ago, I explain that Heracross has substantially more switch-in opportunities due to arguably superior defensive typing (Gallade might have had only one weakness, but it had no useful resistances either, especially since its Defense wasn't letting it switch into any Close Combats anytime soon...), not being affected by/benefitting from Burn/Toxic, absurdly powerful secondary STAB, and more balanced defenses.
I also point out that Shadow Sneak is so incredibly weak that it's only a useful form of priority against really really frail Pokemon or Pokemon that are weak to it, none of which can do anything to Cross besides Alakazam (and Espeon I guess), since even at +2 it's not KOing Moltres or (sometimes) Scyther, even after SR. It's doing jackshit to Arcanine and Houndoom (who KOs gallade with Fire Blast after rocks + life orb), Swellow is immune to it...it's not nearly as useful as people make it out to be, and definitely not enough to outweigh Heracross's substantial advantages.

Oh one more thing. Heracross is faster and has a pretty fucking powerful Facade on its Orb sets...

What I'm trying to get at is...Heracross is more like Salamence and Gallade is more like Dragonite. In that case, saying "why is salamence around when we banned Dragonite" makes plenty of sense.

 

[Heysup]

It's not backwards logic; it would merely be unsupported logic if I hadn't substantiated it...which I did already.
If you check my post a page or two ago, I explain that Heracross has substantially more switch-in opportunities due to arguably superior defensive typing (Gallade might have had only one weakness, but it had no useful resistances either, especially since its Defense wasn't letting it switch into any Close Combats anytime soon...), not being affected by/benefitting from Burn/Toxic, absurdly powerful secondary STAB, and more balanced defenses.

The difference is that Gallade can switch into many Pokemon that it can actually set up on because of its lack of exploitable weaknesses. You rarely ever in "quality" UU matches get an opponent spamming a weak Earthquake or Crunch on your Heracross, you're more likely to get a chance to set up on STAB neutral attacks such as Surf from Milotic. Gallade not only has the Special Defense to take these Surfs and set up, but it is also not as easy to revenge kill. This is what you keep ignoring.

You keep taking arbitrary things - such as Heracross's defensive typing - that may "sound" better, but that's just confirmation bias talking. Ignoring the relevant facts makes your argument, well, irrelevant. Facts that are "relevant" include which Pokemon they can actually set up on, which Pokemon they can actually switch in and force out, and which Pokemon they are actually revenge killed by.

This is why Gallade was banned. It was banned based on those facts. Heracross's would differ greatly from Gallade, you can't just say because they appear similar that one is broken. I think that's mainly what Jabba was trying to say (not that he agrees with the rest of my post).

I also point out that Shadow Sneak is so incredibly weak that it's only a useful form of priority against really really frail Pokemon or Pokemon that are weak to it, none of which can do anything to Cross besides Alakazam (and Espeon I guess), since even at +2 it's not KOing Moltres or (sometimes) Scyther, even after SR. It's doing jackshit to Arcanine and Houndoom (who KOs gallade with Fire Blast after rocks + life orb), Swellow is immune to it...it's not nearly as useful as people make it out to be, and definitely not enough to outweigh Heracross's substantial advantages.

You read this, yet continue with this fallacious logic

You seem to completely miss the point of how good Shadow Sneak is because you're focusing on the power rather than the Pokemon it hits. This is like when people use Snorlax's Fire Punch to hit Grass-types rather than Return or Double-Edge because they think "oo super effective it must do more damage" which is completely inaccurate. Its Base Power is just a number. Shadow Sneak's is only 40, but it makes a huge difference to the Pokemon that can stop Gallade simply because it uses Close Combat and it just so happens that Shadow Sneak destroys all of the faster switch-ins.

Another perfect example of this fallacy where people think that an attack is bad because of Base Power reasons only.

Unboosted LO Shadow Sneak vs Zam: 90.5% - 107.1%. That's a OHKO with Stealth Rock.

How is it possible that a 40 BP UnSTABed attack KOed another Pokemon?? This shouldn't be possible because it's weaker than a resisted +0 Close Combat!! ! ! ! ! ! !!!!! !! ! ! ! !!!!!! ! ! ! !!! ! !! ! ! ! ! !!!!!

You can pull out irrelevant information (like Base Power) all you like. The only, yes, onlything that matters is whether or not it KOes what it needs to. Shadow Sneak does KO a very very significant amount of its would-be counters and revenge killers.

Shadow Sneak does much more than you're giving it credit for. You're forgetting little things like KOing Moltres after it switches in on Close Combat after Stealth Rock. It forces Arcanine to use ExtremeSpeed instead of Flare Blitz after it switches in. It stops Scarf / Specs / LO Ghosts from OHKOing it or subbing up and beating it.

What I'm trying to get at is...Heracross is more like Salamence and Gallade is more like Dragonite. In that case, saying "why is salamence around when we banned Dragonite" makes plenty of sense.

This is not only false but it is also irrelevant.

 

[M BLADE]

Well, this remembers me when me and Heysup discussed about the viability of Quick Attack on SD Blaziken...

I'm not crazy so i din't read much of the discussion (or didn't read anything at all besides the last post), but i guess i can speak my opinions about Shadow Sneak here:

On Gallade, it's very valuable. Because it effectively covers the ghost weakness it has (remember that most ghosts are physically frail... do not say Spiritomb please) while still giving you something to at least chip off some damage from faster foes.
That's huge.

That said, Hera advantages are: well, pretty much anything else. Better ability, bulk, STAB and typing.
And that's MY opinion. You can object that.

 

[Bluewind]

Everyone seems to be exposing their opinions, so I might as well contribute. I won't go too deep on my reasonings because that'll throw this forum in another loop, a situation the UU megathread constantly find itself in and that doesn't tend to lead us to any conclusions due to this game being completely subjective.

First, comparisions won't take this discussion far, simply because from that point of view Heracross is more Borderline than Gallade will ever be. Whatever one's standpoint is on this matter, two things can't be denied: Gallade was banned mostly because it made stall unviable and Heracross does that even better, which would make him BL as well. Second, many of the arguments regarding Gallade's status as BL and Heracross's as UU (actually, 99% of them) involve Shadow Sneak. Of course I won't try to discredit priority on a sweeper like Gallade because it obviously had its uses, but I'd like to make it clear that just as Shadow Sneak made it easier to sweep against faster and frailer mons, so do Guts, superior coverage, higher speed and better STABs do the same to Heracross; allowing it to kill things like Spiritomb, Venusaur (and other base 80s for that matter), Adamant Arcanine and so on (not to mention some of the said mons don't defeat Heracross one on one unless they carry HP Flying).

tl;dr: Comparing Heracross to Gallade (IMHO) only makes the latter look even more BL, and people should focus more on proving Heracross is BL/UU instead of trying to prove one swept better than the other.

 

[umbarsc]

I don't get it. UnSTAB Shadow Sneak and slightly different typing is the difference between A-OK and completely broken (so broken it's not even worth retesting)?

You say that Shadow Sneak is A HUGE DEAL, but that's not justified by calcs or real analysis. And then you go on to say things like:

It forces Arcanine to use ExtremeSpeed instead of Flare Blitz after it switches in.

What kind of moron would use ExtremeSpeed against a Gallade? Offensive Arcanine OHKOs with Flare Blitz, bulkier versions come close or can cripple it with Will-O-Wisp, but you never, ever use ExtremeSpeed, unless Gallade is at ~30% or something.

No respectable offensive team is ever going to get swept by Gallade's Shadow Sneak, ever. A much more likely scenario is that Gallade comes in on something that it can take a hit from (certain Sceptile, Manectric, Hitmonlee), something that it threatens with unboosted Shadow Sneak (Alakazam and the Ghosts), or a defensive pivot/slow Pokemon (Rhyperior, Azumarill). It tries to force the switch and attacks blindly, hopefully scoring a kill before it's forced out. It's not going to get the time to Swords Dance, and if it does, it's usually better off straight-up attacking. Unless this is an offensive team with Registeel, it's going to be extremely difficult to switch directly into anything.

This is not my theorymon fake analysis. This is my experience using and facing Gallade while running almost exclusively offensive teams. There are Pokemon that offensive teams don't like to face, and Gallade is not one of them. Neither is Heracross, for that matter, but at least Heracross can run a threatening Scarf set with Close Combat/Megahorn dual STAB.

But really, even if one or two of Gallade's redeeming qualities makes it somehow superior to Heracross, that still wouldn't mean that Gallade isn't worth retesting. The only real argument not to is that Gen V is here and nobody cares anymore, but with all the tiering shit going on, Gen V UU isn't going to be here for a long time, so we might as well make the most out of this one.

 

[shrang]

Shadow Sneak is unSTAB'd, but if you've read what Heysup has said, it helps against a lot of Pokemon on an offensive team, for example Alakazam, Rotom, Mismagius, and stuff that are weak to it (Which there are quite a few). These Pokemon potentially revenge Gallade. It forces Arcanine to Extremespeed should Arcanine switch in on a beefy Close Combat (I think).

 

[umbarsc]

Stuff that are weak to it? You just listed all three. Unboosted, it's not threatening at all, and only those three + frail Pokemon at <50% will be threatened. +2LO will be doing more damage, like ~65% against frail Pokemon, but offense isn't going to let you Swords Dance up unless they know they have a safe revenge-killer.

Shadow Sneak is a useful tool, like any priority move, but it's not a great offense-killer. And it can't be the difference between perfectly fine and completely broken.

 

[Banedon]

First, comparisions won't take this discussion far, simply because from that point of view Heracross is more Borderline than Gallade will ever be. Whatever one's standpoint is on this matter, two things can't be denied: Gallade was banned mostly because it made stall unviable and Heracross does that even better, which would make him BL as well.

I think some people (such as myself) take this and go Q.E.D, Heracross is BL.

Agree with umbarsc above too.

 

[Heysup]

You guys should pay attention to Jabba's post. It wasn't only its efficacy vs stall, its usefulness vs offense was weighed as well.

First, comparisions won't take this discussion far, simply because from that point of view Heracross is more Borderline than Gallade will ever be. Whatever one's standpoint is on this matter, two things can't be denied: Gallade was banned mostly because it made stall unviable and Heracross does that even better, which would make him BL as well. Second, many of the arguments regarding Gallade's status as BL and Heracross's as UU (actually, 99% of them) involve Shadow Sneak. Of course I won't try to discredit priority on a sweeper like Gallade because it obviously had its uses, but I'd like to make it clear that just as Shadow Sneak made it easier to sweep against faster and frailer mons, so do Guts, superior coverage, higher speed and better STABs do the same to Heracross; allowing it to kill things like Spiritomb, Venusaur (and other base 80s for that matter), Adamant Arcanine and so on (not to mention some of the said mons don't defeat Heracross one on one unless they carry HP Flying).

Last I checked, superior coverage and Guts don't stop 6+ common Pokemon from switching in and checking Heracross (off the top of my head, Shadow Sneak stops: Mismagius, Rotom, Alakazam, Dugtrio, Moltres, and (Intimidate) Arcanine). And the next part addressed the rest of your post:

I don't get it. UnSTAB Shadow Sneak and slightly different typing is the difference between A-OK and completely broken (so broken it's not even worth retesting)?

You say that Shadow Sneak is A HUGE DEAL, but that's not justified by calcs or real analysis.

I actually don't understand why every single person keeps repeating the one thing that I have been pointing out to be incorrect over and over and over. This is that whatever your naive speculation of Shadow Sneak is, your opinion of it is irrelevant. The fact that it's unstabbed or "omg weaker than a +0 NVE CC!" or a mosquito bite doesn't matter any more than Gallade's sprite does. It doesn't matter more than what socks you're wearing today or if you're wearing socks at all. The only thing that will ever matter in Pokemon is the end result. What actually happens.

The game we are playing doesn't give a shit whether a Pokemon is using this weak ass unstabbed 40 BP attack and what that means to you. The game only cares about the end result, calculations. The game cares that a +2 Shadow Sneak OHKOes Dugtrio (99.1% - 117%). The game cares that a +2 Gallade OHKOes Mismagius (138.9% - 164.1%). The game cares that a +2 Shadow Sneak OHKOes Rotom (125.3% - 147.7%). The game cares that +0 LO Gallade's Shadow Sneak OHKOes Alakazam (90.5% - 107.1%). The game cares that Shadow Sneak (20.8% - 24.5%) allows Gallade to finish of Moltres when it switches into SR (50%) and CC (44.7% - 52.9%). The game cares about many other things of this nature. That's all that matters.

You're accusing me of having a poorly supported argument? You have nothing to support yours but subjective speculation about how "visibly strong" something is. I have actual facts (ie calculations that you accused me of not having).

And then you go on to say things like:

What kind of moron would use ExtremeSpeed against a Gallade? Offensive Arcanine OHKOs with Flare Blitz, bulkier versions come close or can cripple it with Will-O-Wisp, but you never, ever use ExtremeSpeed, unless Gallade is at ~30% or something.

Yea what kind of moron would use ExtremeSpeed to deal ~40% (assuming "morning glory" set) to Gallade before it gets KOed by a -1 Shadow Sneak after taking 62.4% - 73.5% from a -1 LO Close Combat and 25% from Stealth Rock when it switches in. Foolish person indeed!

On a serious note, can you please stop trying to attack the arguer instead of the validity of my arguments.

No respectable offensive team is ever going to get swept by Gallade's Shadow Sneak, ever. A much more likely scenario is that Gallade comes in on something that it can take a hit from (certain Sceptile, Manectric, Hitmonlee), something that it threatens with unboosted Shadow Sneak (Alakazam and the Ghosts), or a defensive pivot/slow Pokemon (Rhyperior, Azumarill). It tries to force the switch and attacks blindly, hopefully scoring a kill before it's forced out. It's not going to get the time to Swords Dance, and if it does, it's usually better off straight-up attacking. Unless this is an offensive team with Registeel, it's going to be extremely difficult to switch directly into anything.

Sceptile and Manectric are not the end of the world to switch into, and Hitmonlee takes 83.1% - 97.9% from Shadow Sneak. Good luck.

Ironically, Gallade sets up on your previously mentioned Manectric (it KOes after Life Orb recoil) and Hitmonlee. It sets up on offensive teams Pokemon such as Venusaur. It sets up on Rhyperior locked into SE (though it takes 65.5% - 77.2% from Stone Edge if it mispredicts) or forces out it. If Gallade comes in on any Pokemon it forces out that the opponent can't afford to lose (say it's paired with Moltres, and Gallade switches into Azumaril on the double-switch/revenge kill). You're using prediction as your argument which doesn't fly. Gallade's in many scenarios where the opponent needs to switch and it can grab that key Swords Dance if it needs to.

This is not my theorymon fake analysis. This is my experience using and facing Gallade while running almost exclusively offensive teams. There are Pokemon that offensive teams don't like to face, and Gallade is not one of them. Neither is Heracross, for that matter, but at least Heracross can run a threatening Scarf set with Close Combat/Megahorn dual STAB.

Gallade is not particularly impossible for offense to face, but it is far harder to face an SD Gallade vs an SD Heracross. Scarf Gallade vs Scarf Heracross is not really what we're comparing here, since we need them to "destroy" stall (and for the record, I do think Scarf Heracross is better).

But really, even if one or two of Gallade's redeeming qualities makes it somehow superior to Heracross, that still wouldn't mean that Gallade isn't worth retesting. The only real argument not to is that Gen V is here and nobody cares anymore, but with all the tiering shit going on, Gen V UU isn't going to be here for a long time, so we might as well make the most out of this one.

You people need to get over the fact that Gallade was banned FAIRLY. If Gallade is BL and Heracross ends up BL, great. If Heracross ends up UU, then tough shit, that's how the voters felt.

That's really all I have to say on this matter.

 

[Banedon]

Yeah, and what about this:

The final argument against Gallade for BL seems to be that of "But it's pretty useless against nonstall teams"

And to that I say fucking bullshit.

Gallade gets plenty of viable switchins verses a non-stall team, it can switch into Raikou and live, it can switch into Milotic and live, it can pretty much switch into most Special attackers and not get 2HKOd, so long as they don't carry a super effective attack. So it's not as though it's lacking viable switchins...

Yes, you would be correct in saying that I won't be getting a Swords Dance sweep anytime soon, because you can bring in a faster sweeper such as Swellow, who is immune to Shadow Sneak... but you'd be a fool to do so, because if I know I'm going up against something that -isn't- stall (which should be more than easy enough to judge by the time Gallade hits the floor), I'm just plain not going to try and Swords Dance. Instead Im' going to punch holes into your team with my incredibly powerful Close Combat / Stone Edge.

In short, what I'm trying to say is, yes Gallade isn't near the monster against offensive teams that it is against stall teams, but the gap in usefulness between the two is not so much that it's a detriment to use Gallade on your team because you might run into a Offense team.

For those of you who like a diagram

Gallade vs. Stall = Far too good, broken even
Gallade vs. Offense = Just kind of good

Heracross can switch into Absol's Night Slash and live, switch into Mismagius's Shadow Ball and live, switch into Milotic's Surf and live, switch into HP Ice Sceptile and live, so it's not as though it's lacking any viable switch-ins ...

Furthermore, although Heracross won't be getting any SD sweeps soon against offense, if I'm using SD Heracross and I know I'm up against a non-stall team I'm not going to try to set up, I'm just going to bash things in with my "incredibly powerful Close Combat / Stone Edge / Megahorn".

In short, while SD Heracross isn't near the monster against offensive teams that it is against stall teams, the gap in usefulness between the two is not so much that it's a detriment to use Heracross on your team because you might run into an offensive team ...

SD Heracross vs. Stall = Far too good, broken even
SD Heracross vs. Offense = Just kind of good

PS: Plagiarism ftw, although I have to say again that LonelyNess's post is certainly one of the best arguments I've seen for a particular Pokemon being BL.

 

[FlareBlitz]

I was hoping someone else would have dealt with this, but apparently not.

The difference is that Gallade can switch into many Pokemon that it can actually set up on because of its lack of exploitable weaknesses. You rarely ever in "quality" UU matches get an opponent spamming a weak Earthquake or Crunch on your Heracross, you're more likely to get a chance to set up on STAB neutral attacks such as Surf from Milotic. Gallade not only has the Special Defense to take these Surfs and set up, but it is also not as easy to revenge kill. This is what you keep ignoring.

For this and all other quotes in this post, I'm going to try and just summarize the main points that you're trying to make, and address just those. It's a lot less stressful for me because I can kind of focus my rage and as a plus we can keep some of the unsubstantiated bullshit out of the thread. So, here are the main claims you made in this section:

-Gallade has more switch-in/set up opportunities (you use Milotic as an example)

I'm actually somewhat incredulous that you seriously attempted to make that first point, because there is no way in hell Gallade has more set up opportunities than Heracross does. Someone asked "how did Gallade set up against stall" a few pages back, and no one answered him...because it had a really fucking difficult time doing so. I don't care that it has "fewer exploitable weaknesses", resistances matter far more as far as set-up goes.

Here are a list of Pokemon I wrote up that Heracross can set up on or force out, a few pages back: "donphan, torterra, hitmontop, milotic, spiritomb, drapion, non-sub/wow rotom, and non-life orb mismagius". This is by no means comprehensive. I consider "setting up or forcing out" valid if Cross has the ability to instantly KO the opponent if he stays in and will not be KO'd first if the opponent is faster, by the way...which is true for every single one of those.

Amusingly, Gallade can set up on none of these except Milotic and possibly Hitmontop depending on the spread (Close Combat from offensive spreads 2hko, lawl)...and it actually loses to Spiritomb, Mismagius, and Rotom outright. In an attempt to be fair, I was trying to think of Pokemon that Gallade can set up on which Heracross cannot, and I seriously couldn't. Gallade's only defensive advantage over Heracross consists of ~9% more special defense, which really doesn't matter very much at all compared to everything Heracross has over it.

As for Milotic...some calcs:

Surf v 4/0 Cross: 35.8% - 42.1%
Surf v 4/0 Gallade: 32.7% - 38.8%

Yeah both of them face the exact same 3hko (with rocks). And I swear to god, don't say "hurr cross has an orb", because I already addressed that earlier. For the purposes of this discussion assume it has a life orb or choice band, both of those are usually better sets anyway.

-Gallade is harder to revenge

Fortunately for you, this argument has slight merit. But still not a lot.
The most common way of revenging things in UU is priority. Things like Extremespeed, Aqua Jet, TechTop, Sucker Punch, and so on. Additionally, many of the Pokemon faster than Gallade either resist Shadow Sneak (Houndoom, Swellow), or don't really give a shit (Arcanine, Leafeon). Now obviously, Pokemon like Alakazam, Missy, and Rotom are the exceptions here...but then you have to consider that Alakazam is the only one of those three who can actually revenge Heracross.

So basically, yes, Shadow Sneak does make Gallade slightly harder to revenge, I'll grant that. But wait, we forgot about priority. Gallade is weak to a form of priority (Shadow Sneak) and it does not resist any except Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave. Heracross is weak to no priority, resists Sucker Punch, Mach Punch, and Vacuum Wave, and has way better physical defense to boot (around 25%). Just some quick calcs for ya:

CB Arcanine's Xspeed versus Cross: 53.6% - 63.2%
Gallade: 65.1% - 77%

CB Azumarill's Aqua Jet versus Cross: 50.7% - 59.6%
Gallade: 60.8% - 72.3%

CB Tomb's Shadow Sneak versus Cross: 36.1% - 42.7%
Gallade: 87.1% - 103.6%

Physical MixDoom's Sucker Punch versus Cross: 30.5% - 35.8%
Gallade: 73.7% - 87.4%

TechTop's Fake Out -> Bullet Punch versus Cross: 62.9% - 74.2%
Gallade: 77% - 90.6%

Basically, Gallade takes so much more from common priority that, in my estimation, it is statistically far easier to revenge than Heracross is.

You keep taking arbitrary things - such as Heracross's defensive typing - that may "sound" better, but that's just confirmation bias talking. Ignoring the relevant facts makes your argument, well, irrelevant. Facts that are "relevant" include which Pokemon they can actually set up on, which Pokemon they can actually switch in and force out, and which Pokemon they are actually revenge killed by.

This is why Gallade was banned. It was banned based on those facts. Heracross's would differ greatly from Gallade, you can't just say because they appear similar that one is broken. I think that's mainly what Jabba was trying to say (not that he agrees with the rest of my post).

The first part is merely a repetition of the "gallade sets up easier" argument, which I have addressed above.

The second part is kinda silly. I've given multiple reasons why they're similar. The only ways they're not are the ways in which Heracross is just much better.

Shadow Sneak does much more than you're giving it credit for. You're forgetting little things like KOing Moltres after it switches in on Close Combat after Stealth Rock. It forces Arcanine to use ExtremeSpeed instead of Flare Blitz after it switches in. It stops Scarf / Specs / LO Ghosts from OHKOing it or subbing up and beating it.

Lol at calling my logic "fallacious" after using calcs like Adamant LO Gallade's Shadow Sneak barely koing something with 55/45 defenses that it's super-effective against and then saying "see shadow sneak is awesome!!111" The funny thing here is that Jolly doesn't even ohko all the time...and this is an Alakazam. Really?

Shadow Sneak is very weak. Yes, it KOs Moltres after it takes a Close Combat and Stealth Rock. So what? Cross has a fantastic secondary STAB in Megahorn (Psycho Cut is nice, but weak and makes you Tomb bait), and a fucking immunity to burn. It can pretty easily wreck Pokemon that would wall Gallade just with Megahorn, and unlike Gallade it isn't forced out by anything with a part Psychic typing and a modicum of bulk (uxie, mespirit, slowwwwwbrooooo). Are you really going to use a piss-weak priority attack as justification for Gallade being better? That is one hell of a stretch, friend.

Summary:

If Gallade was banned for "breaking" stall when Tomb/Weezing/Slowbro/Tangrowth/Torterra/Uxie pretty handily shut it down (some of these depend on set), then how is Heracross worse when it gets by ALL of those and if faster to boot?

And if we're talking proficiency versus offensive/balanced teams, all I really need to point to is Heracross's higher speed, better defense against priority, better STAB moves, immunity to burn, better typing (unless someone trolls you with HP Flying I guess), and access to a very spammable tertiary coverage option in Facade/Double-Edge.

This is not only false but it is also irrelevant.

That was included because Jabba used the same example in his post. Feel free to cite it as irrelevant.

My god, how do you guys do this so often? This shit takes way too much time.

 

[Heysup]

So, here are the main claims you made in this section:

-Gallade has more switch-in/set up opportunities (you use Milotic as an example)

I'm actually somewhat incredulous that you seriously attempted to make that first point, because there is no way in hell Gallade has more set up opportunities than Heracross does. Someone asked "how did Gallade set up against stall" a few pages back, and no one answered him...because it had a really fucking difficult time doing so. I don't care that it has "fewer exploitable weaknesses", resistances matter far more as far as set-up goes.

This "not quoting" thing works nicely for you since you can outright ignore some of my points, like how I addressed that people do not sit there and spam EQ and Crunch on you. The more exploitable weaknesses, the less chances you'll have to set up. Simple as that.

Here are a list of Pokemon I wrote up that Heracross can set up on or force out, a few pages back: "donphan, torterra, hitmontop, milotic, spiritomb, drapion, non-sub/wow rotom, and non-life orb mismagius". This is by no means comprehensive. I consider "setting up or forcing out" valid if Cross has the ability to instantly KO the opponent if he stays in and will not be KO'd first if the opponent is faster, by the way...which is true for every single one of those.

Donphan: Uh yea, no. Donphan is either defensive with Roar, or Adamant w/ Attack EVs and has Head Smash (71.4% - 84.4%) / Stone Edge (47.8% - 56.5%).

Torterra: It still 2HKOes you with Stone Edge, but I'll give you it.

Hitmontop: Yea you come in on Hitmontop, press Swords Dance, then get dominated by Aerial Ace. Want to know the ironic thing here? Gallade sets up on Hitmontop just fine, even if it's carrying Aerial Ace.

Drapion: Read Hitmontop. And yes, I actually use Aerial Ace on my Drapion; it hits opposing Hitmontop, Toxicroak, and Heracross. It isn't one of those shitty types like Poison or Psychic.

Non-Sub Rotom/Missy: I don't feel the need to even point out how ridiculous this is to bring up. That's like saying "non Sleep Powder Venusaur".

Amusingly, Gallade can set up on none of these except Milotic and possibly Hitmontop depending on the spread (Close Combat from offensive spreads 2hko, lawl)...and it actually loses to Spiritomb, Mismagius, and Rotom outright. In an attempt to be fair, I was trying to think of Pokemon that Gallade can set up on which Heracross cannot, and I seriously couldn't. Gallade's only defensive advantage over Heracross consists of ~9% more special defense, which really doesn't matter very much at all compared to everything Heracross has over it.

One-dimensional arguments that look solely at stats are one-dimensional. You for some reason think that Pokemon can't run Aerial Ace because it's not run without Heracross in the metagame. However the truth is, people can and will prepare for Heracross. Gallade does not have an exploitable "insta-check" move that KOes it off the bat that every Pokemon can learn (AAce and HPflying).

As for Milotic...some calcs:

Surf v 4/0 Cross: 35.8% - 42.1%
Surf v 4/0 Gallade: 32.7% - 38.8%

Yeah both of them face the exact same 3hko (with rocks). And I swear to god, don't say "hurr cross has an orb", because I already addressed that earlier. For the purposes of this discussion assume it has a life orb or choice band, both of those are usually better sets anyway.

Gallade's EVs are not max/max....they generally have roughly 100-120 EVs in HP. However, I'll humor you and actually further prove my point.

Math time.

4 HP Heracross vs 0 SpA Milotic

35.8% + 12.5% + 35.8% = 84.1% MINIMUM damage
42.1% + 12.5% + 42.1% = 96.2% maximum damage

4 HP Gallade vs 0 SpA Milotic

32.7% + 6.25% + 32.7% = 71.65% minimum damage
38.8% + 6.25% + 38.8% = 83.85% maximum damage

As I have been saying, you're one-sided one-dimensional arguments have no merit when you ignore basic things like Stealth Rock resistance. This and the 9% extra Special bulk cause Heracross to be basically 2HKOed while it gives Gallade much more breathing room. Most of the time Heracross only gets 1 attack while Gallade gets 3. Sweeping 1 Pokemon vs sweeping 3?

Also, for fun:

120 HP Gallade vs 0 SpA Milotic

29.6% + 6.25% + 29.6% = 65.45%
29.6% + 6.25% + 29.6% + 29.6% = 95.05% (Yes just for shits and giggles it's 4HKOed by Surf with min rolls)
35.2% + 6.25 + 35.2% = 76.65%

When you start sounding like this: "well it just has this....this...and this...and this....and this..." you know you're digging yourself in a whole. Just because there are many small differences doesn't mean that they don't count.

-Gallade is harder to revenge

Fortunately for you, this argument has slight merit. But still not a lot.
The most common way of revenging things in UU is priority. Things like Extremespeed, Aqua Jet, TechTop, Sucker Punch, and so on. Additionally, many of the Pokemon faster than Gallade either resist Shadow Sneak (Houndoom, Swellow), or don't really give a shit (Arcanine, Leafeon). Now obviously, Pokemon like Alakazam, Missy, and Rotom are the exceptions here...but then you have to consider that Alakazam is the only one of those three who can actually revenge Heracross.

First of all, lol at Fake Out against a Steadfast mon vs offense.

Second, I'd like to call bullshit on your last line because Rotom and Missy both revenge kill Heracross with a very simple HP Flying or 2HKO via Thunderbolt / Shadow Ball.

You also need to consider that other weakened offensive Pokemon take 70% from +2 Shadow Sneak, meaning they need to be in mint shape to take on Gallade while it doesn't matter with Heracross because they outpace and OHKO it. You have a huge amount of Pokemon that by the end of the battle will likely be sitting at around 70% and will get shmeist by Shadow Sneak.

You can weaken a team and sweep with Gallade. Heracross....you simply can't. Use Heracross as a wallbreaker vs offense, seriously. The only reason you're even considering SD Cross in the first place is because it's the only set that dominates stall.

So basically, yes, Shadow Sneak does make Gallade slightly harder to revenge, I'll grant that. But wait, we forgot about priority. Gallade is weak to a form of priority (Shadow Sneak) and it does not resist any except Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave. Heracross is weak to no priority, resists Sucker Punch, Mach Punch, and Vacuum Wave, and has way better physical defense to boot (around 25%). Just some quick calcs for ya:

What uses Shadow Sneak besides Gallade and Spiritomb? Muk?

You're also TOTALLY missing the point. Priority vs Heracross is irrelevant 9/10 times because it can just be outsped and revenge killed. Gallade needs to be outsped AND be hit by a priority attack in order to be "reliably" revenge killed.

CB Arcanine's Xspeed versus Cross: 53.6% - 63.2%
Gallade: 65.1% - 77%

Defensive Arcanine's Flare Blitz vs Heracross: OHKO
vs Gallade: not

Offensive Arcanine's Flare Blitz vs either: OHKO.

Why the fuck is Arcanine using ExtremeSpeed when it outpaces. The only time it would ever use it is against Gallade after switching into Close Combat to avoid being totally useless.

CB Azumarill's Aqua Jet versus Cross: 50.7% - 59.6%
Gallade: 60.8% - 72.3%

No difference vs offense.

CB Tomb's Shadow Sneak versus Cross: 36.1% - 42.7%
Gallade: 87.1% - 103.6%

Spiritomb beats Gallade, what is it now 8-1?

Physical MixDoom's Sucker Punch versus Cross: 30.5% - 35.8%
Gallade: 73.7% - 87.4%

Hi I'm Houndoom, I outspeed Heracross and Gallade, and I also carry this fancy move called Fire Blast and I like using it to OHKO Heracross but failing miserably to OHKO Gallade (mixed does 54.7% - 64.5% with Fire Blast).

TechTop's Fake Out -> Bullet Punch versus Cross: 62.9% - 74.2%
Gallade: 77% - 90.6%

+2 Shadow Sneak vs Technitop: 41.4% - 49%

Nearly guaranteed 2HKO with Life Orb recoil and Stealth Rock (at best it lives with 1% left).

Please don't waste my time with calculations of priority moves on faster Pokemon that OHKO Heracross without priority. I guess it kind of made Gallade look that much better.

I mean, you literally just said this:

"Heracross, a base 85 Speed Pokemon, takes less damage from base 95 Speed Pokemon's priority attacks, but it is OHKOed by them anyway since they are faster and carry STAB Fire Blast and Flare Blitz."

Basically, Gallade takes so much more from common priority that, in my estimation, it is statistically far easier to revenge than Heracross is.

Well when you fail to present more than one Pokemon that can reliably revenge Gallade that can't revenge kill Heracross, while presenting more Pokemon that reliably revenge kill Heracross and can't revenge kill Gallade, I'd be inclined to say that you're statistically wrong.

Lol at calling my logic "fallacious" after using calcs like Adamant LO Gallade's Shadow Sneak barely koing something with 55/45 defenses that it's super-effective against and then saying "see shadow sneak is awesome!!111" The funny thing here is that Jolly doesn't even ohko all the time...and this is an Alakazam. Really?

This matters to the game about as much as Gallade being shiny. As I have said before, your arbitrary irrelevant statements do not mean anything. "lol omg its alakazam and it only does this much but it still OHKOes".

How does Heracross do against Alakazam?

Shadow Sneak is very weak. Yes, it KOs Moltres after it takes a Close Combat and Stealth Rock. So what? Cross has a fantastic secondary STAB in Megahorn (Psycho Cut is nice, but weak and makes you Tomb bait), and a fucking immunity to burn. It can pretty easily wreck Pokemon that would wall Gallade just with Megahorn, and unlike Gallade it isn't forced out by anything with a part Psychic typing and a modicum of bulk (uxie, mespirit, slowwwwwbrooooo). Are you really going to use a piss-weak priority attack as justification for Gallade being better? That is one hell of a stretch, friend.

Again all of this stuff is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that Heracross does not function as well as Gallade because of Shadow Sneak + better typing. Ok Heracross has a lot of power with Guts, but, again, last I checked Guts doesn't increase Heracross's Speed and OHKO every Ghost type (besides tomb).

Summary:

If Gallade was banned for "breaking" stall when Tomb/Weezing/Slowbro/Tangrowth/Torterra/Uxie pretty handily shut it down (some of these depend on set), then how is Heracross worse when it gets by ALL of those and if faster to boot?

And if we're talking proficiency versus offensive/balanced teams, all I really need to point to is Heracross's higher speed, better defense against priority, better STAB moves, immunity to burn, better typing (unless someone trolls you with HP Flying I guess), and access to a very spammable tertiary coverage option in Facade/Double-Edge.

Ok so I'll ignore that Gallade sweeps those Pokemon and that HP Flying is a very very very legitimate move, specifically for Pokemon like Sceptile, Rotom, and Mismagius (hit Venusaur, Croak, Torterra, Leafeon, and the like SE).

Anyway, thank you for pointing out Heracross's Speed and lack of priority, because that is the sole reason why your "takes less from 95 base Speed mons priority" is an invalid point.

I am getting kind of exhausted myself...I'm usually fine with doing this but all I've been doing is repeating myself after proving something false over and over again. It's making this whole discussion stale as fuck.

 

[Bluewind]

Ok, I didn't really read what you wrote cause it's long... so I'll just address the part that concerns my post: What I wrote is, just like Gallade is stopped by a smaller number of faster mons due to Shadow Sneak, Heracross can make it past slower and bulkier mons such as Spiritomb, Adamant Arcanine, Slowbro and so on. Also really? Shadow Sneak against Arcanine and Moltres...? You were the one saying some pages ago that giving Moltres some spin support is pathetically easy, and even then, switching Moltres in on Gallade with SR down is as stupid as doing the same to Venusaur. And Arcanine just lols at you...

Also, my objective was never to discredit Shadow Sneak...

 

[Meru]

Okay what is this HP Flying and Aerial Ace stuff? Stop kidding yourself. Rotom runs HP Ice, not HP Flying. Sceptile runs Dragon Pulse for neutral coverage, and Mismagius runs support moves + Shadow Ball + HP Fighting/Thunderbolt.

 

[SOMALIA]

Okay what is this HP Flying and Aerial Ace stuff? Stop kidding yourself. Rotom runs HP Ice, not HP Flying. Sceptile runs Dragon Pulse for neutral coverage, and Mismagius runs support moves + Shadow Ball + HP Fighting/Thunderbolt.

I agree with most of what you said but to say Sceptile runs dragon pulse for neutral coverage isn't true at all. Infact almost no-one uses dragon pulse on Sceptile simply because it is only super effective on one specific UU pokemon and also other moves such as Hidden power Psychic, Rock slide and Focus blast outclass it and provide good coverage with it's STAB.

 

[Bluewind]

Sceptile runs Dragon Pulse... really? I'd much rather run something like Hidden Power or Synthesis for coverage/staying power instead of trying to hit Altaria. HP Ice on Rotom is mostly there for Torterra and Altaria and given the fact Heracross's usage is way higher than the ones of both of them together and that it still allows Rotom to check Toxicroack, Grass-types and such, it's not that absurd. I agree with the Mismagius part though.

 

[Heysup]

Ok, I didn't really read what you wrote cause it's long... so I'll just address the part that concerns my post: What I wrote is, just like Gallade is stopped by a smaller number of faster mons due to Shadow Sneak, Heracross can make it past slower and bulkier mons such as Spiritomb, Adamant Arcanine, Slowbro and so on. Also really? Shadow Sneak against Arcanine and Moltres...? You were the one saying some pages ago that giving Moltres some spin support is pathetically easy, and even then, switching Moltres in on Gallade with SR down is as stupid as doing the same to Venusaur. And Arcanine just lols at you...

Also, my objective was never to discredit Shadow Sneak...

Most of the second part of my post was directed at umbarsc, but it was relevant to your post as well.

The point is that we are on the topic of efficacy versus offense. While I would clearly not argue against the fact that SD Heracross beats stall in ways SD Gallade never could, I am merely pointing out that SD Heracross's effectiveness versus offense is nowhere near SD Gallade's. This is why Gallade doesn't create some fucked up precedent where we arbitrarily ban/unban things because of a few similarities.

 

[Bluewind]

You're dismissing the facts I've just mentioned: Offense still carries one or two defensive mons such as Slowbro, Spiritomb and so on as backup for more powerful threads, not to mention Heracross doesn't tie with the clusterfuck of pokés that cap at 284 speed (and those aren't few). Saying Gallade is outright more effective than Heracross breaking through offense is a blalant understatement to Hera's power. And I haven't even mentioned the alternative sets Heracross can run and Gallade can't.

 

[Meru]

Sceptile runs Dragon Pulse... really? I'd much rather run something like Hidden Power or Synthesis for coverage/staying power instead of trying to hit Altaria. HP Ice on Rotom is mostly there for Torterra and Altaria and given the fact Heracross's usage is way higher than the ones of both of them together and that it still allows Rotom to check Toxicroack, Grass-types and such, it's not that absurd. I agree with the Mismagius part though.

It does run Hidden Power. You can only have one hidden power though and most choose Ice for good coverage and then Dragon Pulse for good neutral coverage. At least if we're talking about Specstile, the only Sceptile actually likely to carry HP Flying. Sceptile's special movepool is that pathetic

 

[Heysup]

You're dismissing the facts I've just mentioned: Offense still carries one or two defensive mons such as Slowbro, Spiritomb and so on as backup for more powerful threads, not to mention Heracross doesn't tie with the clusterfuck of pokés that cap at 284 speed (and those aren't few). Saying Gallade is outright more effective than Heracross breaking through offense is a blalant understatement to Hera's power. And I haven't even mentioned the alternative sets Heracross can run and Gallade can't.

You're seriously trying to pass "offense carrying 1-2 defensive mons" as a fact? Your opinion of what offense should run is not a fact. Offensive teams can run as many or as little walls as they want. I usually only run 1 defensive pivot maximum for Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin. This mon still beats Heracross. In many of my other teams I run a grand total of 0 defensive mons.

Additionally, Milotic is far more common than Spiritomb and Slowbro. It is simply better because it doesn't allow Heracross to set up. Slowbro doesn't even stop Gallade (read LN's nomination).

You're defining offense as such: a bunch of base 80 mons with 1-2 defensive walls, one of which can stop Gallade. That sounds less like an offensive team and more like a really bad balance team that wants to be swept not only by Heracross, but by Moltres (if they in fact use Slowbro), Houndoom, Arcanine, and the like.

Successful offensive teams, such as Dekzeh's, run as many Pokemon as possible that are ABOVE the centralized Speed, which right now is at base 85-90 because of Heracross. There is literally no point in running a max Speed base 80.

SD Gallade at 230 Speed is more effective than a SD Heracross at 295 speed because the speed doesn't matter against good offensive teams because their mons will be faster than Heracross and they will OHKO you before you can do any serious damage. Gallade on the other hand has priority to fend these Pokemon off, as well as the ability to tank neutral hits from various Pokemon like Houndoom (MixDoom Fire Blast does 60%).

Now let's be realistic. Neither of these Pokemon "break through" offense, but SD Gallade is definitely much more effective against offense than SD Heracross will ever be.

Scarf Heracross on the other hand.....I may nominate this my self.

It does run Hidden Power. You can only have one hidden power though and most choose Ice for good coverage and then Dragon Pulse for good neutral coverage. At least if we're talking about Specstile, the only Sceptile actually likely to carry HP Flying. Sceptile's special movepool is that pathetic

What are you basing this off of? Can you please tell me why Grass (Leaf Storm) / Flying (Hidden Power) / Fighting (Focus Blast) is so horrible? Well I'm unsure if there is a point in trying to explain something that's incorrect, but you can try.

Flying is an awesome attacking type. It hits the common Pokemon in this metagame such as Toxicroak, Venusaur, Leafeon, Torterra, Sceptile, and Fighting-types while also nailing Heracross.

Are you honestly going to tell me that hitting Altaria is more important than hitting Toxicroak and Heracross?

 

[Bad Ass]

i think the point is that it is irrelevant because even if heracross is voted uu there is no way we will let gallade back in. even if it became normal typed and had normalize as its sole ability, it would stay in bl if it was voted bl twice or by a supermajority. after spending all this time "perfecting" the suspect process, we aren't going to let in one pokemon because another is unbanned.

ps flare i'm sorry but "allowin gallade into uu because heracross is" is the dumbest thing i have ever heard.

 

[Raseri]

Ok I'm not sure if this is where I should post this, but what are the voting requirements for this round?