NP: UU - Zero to Hero

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uragg

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hey guys i use x to deal with y and z but im not gonna tell you lololol
oh right let's all share our best teams' strategies because it's not like any important stuff is happening in uu like smogon tour or anything lololol

i don't think many people are going to be laddering for anything other than testing purposes until the ladder is reset and upper reqs are up for grabs. if the ladder is reset at all lol...

SD hera isn't used because it really isn't needed. like bad ass mentioned in the beginning of this thread orb 4 attacks is the best set overall (i.e. can wreak havoc against all playstyles when it gets in) because hera doesn't lose anything from 2HKOing stall pokes rather than OHKOing them, while SD is gonna be risky against offense/balance because people might just switch in their moltres/arcanine for free. hera is almost always better off just attacking off the bat since its best perk is the fact that nothing can switch into it.
 

JabbaTheGriffin

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Ladder - I think one reason the ladder isn't very good right now is because nobody knows when the round is ending, or if it's even started, or what the requirements for voting this round will be. Lots of people have asked, but no response ... anyone know? Reach? Jabba?
I think Doug said he was going to reset the ratings after September stats come out. It's not really relevant to the start of a new round but yeah so it should be reset soon and then will end 6 weeks from that date.
 

Nas

Banned deucer.
i know i havent played a single ladder game but i have tried out the heracross metagame i think 3 weeks ago? i use two pokemon to check all heracross variants as well, but id probably reveal it after next weeks tour passes. it obviously features an arcanine.
I think I know the second one, but won't say because you're canadian. Also, Orb +4 Attack Heracross is not the best set.

Smurf, it's HP Rock Weezing, isn't it?
 

uragg

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RT is just bitter because people dissed his ResTalk LO set.
 

shrang

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I remember using Specs Milotic in Raikou era, it was really boss. Back then, it would lure in Raikou like crazy and OHKO it with Hydro Pump after SR. Right now, it has about a 50/50 shot at 2HKOing standard LO Venusaur with Hydro Pump after SR as well(40.73% - 47.68%), which goes to show how awesome it is.
 
A Grass-type seems likely, because it lures in Heracross, Weezing, Fire-types, and Flying-types. The problem is that I can't think of a Grasser that beats down all of those Pokemon, and I can't imagine Gligar ever switching into Grass-type.

Another possibility is another Fighting-type, since they would have similar checks. Guts Orb Hariyama could work, taking out all of the Pokemon listed above on the switch while beating Weezing/Arcanine one-on-one, although it's probably not running Stone Edge and Ice Punch on the same set. Medicham works with Psycho Cut and Ice Punch, I suppose. Otherwise, Fighting types lose to Weezing.

Curse lure Registeel? It Curses on the switch, survives one attack from Heracross / Moltres / Arcanine, then takes it out with a boosted attack or Explosion. Defensive Pokemon like Gligar / Weezing can be set up on to some extent.

CB Head Smash Donphan lures and takes out most of checks listed above, although Arcanine would never be switching into it, so it's not a true lure, but it's still really close.

You could be talking about Heracross itself, if you're running an unorthodox set. I'm not sure what that set would be, but hey, it's possible.
 
Moving away from what Smurf's strategy might be ... several thoughts on several Pokemon in the UU metagame.

Venusaur - I'm tempted to change my mind on Venusaur's tiering. It just has so many things going for it. For a sweeper its bulk is excellent, it has instant recovery, it has a sleep-inducing move and its Leaf Storms are only a little weaker than Sceptile's (100 SpA vs. 105 SpA). It can run a multitude of different sets. It's indeed walled by several Pokemon, and to quote whistle's list in QC, these are "arcanine/moltres/altaria/drapion/registeel/weezing/scyther/clefable". Arcanine, Moltres, Scyther and Altaria are all weak to Stealth Rock, two of them dangerously so. If Stealth Rock is up they might even risk dying to Sludge Bomb on the switch. Registeel, Drapion and Weezing don't have reliable recovery outside of Rest, but Venusaur can recover its health, so all three can be worn down eventually (and RestTalkers have their own problems). Specially defensive Clefable walls Venusaur alright, but it's only one Pokemon and it can't really wall other variants of Venusaur such as SD Venusaur.

Sceptile is arguably more destructive than Venusaur when it switches in, but it is far more fragile. Switching Sceptile into Milotic can actually hurt more than help. Min SpA Milotic Surf vs. 4/0 Sceptile is 21% - 24.6%, so after SR damage Sceptile is often forced to heal (if it has Synthesis). Then Milotic might have Ice Beam, which 2HKOes Sceptile easily. Venusaur on the other hand can switch in on Milotic easily, and Milotic the most common Pokemon in the metagame.

Back in the Froslass metagame I wrote that since Froslass can set up on Venusaur (who was the most common Pokemon in the metagame then), we should expect Venusaur use to decrease. Since it didn't, the logical conclusion is that Froslass isn't as dangerous as some people made it out to be. Although this is logical, and although it is similar to the Venusaur <-> Milotic case here, it does have a flaw. Milotic is a fantastic defensive Pokemon that is a one-Pokemon cure to so many of the metagame's threats, from Moltres to Houndoom to Blaziken to Rhyperior and the list goes on and on and on. The same can be said of Venusaur during the Froslass era as well. I believe many teams think the risk of using Milotic, and therefore letting Venusaur switch in safely, is well worth the gain.

Venusaur is much easier to handle once you know its set, and there are combinations that Venusaur simply cannot muscle its way across. But even if Venusaur can't scratch a team, it still has Sleep Powder, so it won't ever be dead weight. So like I said, I'm tempted to change my mind on Venusaur's tiering. I used to think it's UU, and even now I don't think it's overwhelming, but it's at least at the top of the UU hierarchy.

Milotic - this Pokemon sure walls a lot of things. So many things are walled or at least checked by Milotic. The list just goes on and on ... Feraligatr is checked, Moltres is checked, (Specs) Blastoise is checked, Rhyperior is checked, yada yada is checked, etc. I've found that when I use Milotic, everyone and their mothers tries to beat it Toxic'ing it. But even though that means Milotic will not be able to wall a Pokemon ad infinitum, it can still check Pokemon like Rhyperior and Donphan easily, especially since it has Marvel Scale active. There're even Pokemon like SpD Arcanine who've been developed specifically to beat Milotic.

What more can I say about Milotic? It walls a crapload of the metagame. It can survive hits like Magmortar's Thunderbolt, which is 95 BP + super effective + 125 base SpA, so it can function as a last-ditch check to many Pokemon. It has respectable offenses for a wall; I've had several games already where it came down to Milotic vs. Milotic because neither side could afford to switch out. It even walls (some variants of) Heracross, despite Heracross being a formidable physical attacker hitting on Milotic's weaker side. I suspect that if the tables were turned and Milotic were actually a sweeper that sweeps as many Pokemon as it currently walls, Milotic would be an easy BL. So much for the difference between the offensive characteristic and defensive characteristic.

There're still things that beat Milotic, but for now I'm inclined to agree with Eo's assessment that Milotic is the best Pokemon in UU, better even than Heracross. BL it isn't, but only because defensive Pokemon are always going to be vulnerable to set-ups.

Ambipom - This is the most common lead in UU right now, and one that I don't quite understand. It beats many leads, yes, and it has free damage every time it switches in. There are leads that handle most other leads, bar Ambipom, and there are leads that carry Protect just to beat Ambipom ... but so what? Ambipom has its hard counters. Without Pursuit, ghost types can easily switch in and score a strong hit or maybe put up a Sub. Even with Pursuit, Spiritomb is a 100% counter, and it's not hard to switch it in unharmed. Just switch in on the Fake Out and gogo Pursuit. Spiritomb takes no damage and deals big damage, what's not to like? Even worse for Ambipom is that it can't do anything about Spiritomb switching in unless it has prior knowledge about the team it's facing, and even then not using the "free" Fake Out is a gamble. Ambipom is dominated by Spiritomb as badly as Alakazam, in fact it's dominated even worse than lead Alakazam because lead Alakazam might have a Sash / Reflect to save itself from Spiritomb. Yet to my knowledge nobody has mentioned Spiritomb in relation to Ambipom while Alakazam's Spiritomb weakness is consistently brought up.

That's not all; there're other hard counters like Steelix, Registeel and Regirock as well. Unless Ambipom has Low Kick (and even if Ambipom has Low Kick, it can't 2HKO), it's stuck in the awkward situation of "should I Taunt and risk getting attacked, or should I U-turn and risk SR going up?". It's even more awkward since Ambipom is supposed to stop SR going up in the first place. But all these problems haven't stopped Ambipom from being consistently among the top UU leads.

I'm curious how the players who use an Ambipom lead deal with the chance that the other team has a Spiritomb / Steelix / Registeel / assorted Ambipom hard counters, because personally it means I've simply stopped using Ambipom leads @_@
 
^I've actually stated numerous times that Ambipom is a free invitation for Spiritomb to come in and Pursuit it while it never accomplishes anything.
 

Meru

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Ambipom is a good scout and offensive pivot. So many pokes can abuse his counters like Spiritomb and Rhyperior for easy set up.
 

shrang

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Ambipom is a good scout and offensive pivot. So many pokes can abuse his counters like Spiritomb and Rhyperior for easy set up.
Yeah, I don't understand the hype about Ambipom either. Sure, you're beating a lot of leads and being a dick in general, but Ambipom is hardly going to win you battles, like ever.

Anyway, the reason I quoted the above is since when is Rhyperior easy set up?? Yeah, try to set up on it while you take 60%+ from one of its attacks if you predict wrongly (Yeah, you can scare it out, but if your opponent was thinking of saccing Rhyperior anyway, then you just ate a massive attack).
 
Milotic - BL it isn't, but only because defensive Pokemon are always going to be vulnerable to set-ups.
This is your entire argument against "Milotic for BL". But you haven't told us what sets up on Milotic. The most common set appears to be Surf / Recover / Ice Beam / HP Grass. Also, Haze is found on ( 24.4 / 80.9 [Leftovers Milotic]) around 30% of defensive Milotic in August.
 

Erazor

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It's well known that offensive Pokemon get a raw deal on the BL characterisitcs.

That said, I'm thinking Heracross is a perfect fit in the generally fast paced, offensive metagame I'm seeing on the ladder. However, the metagame is probably this offensive only BECAUSE of Heracross, since (most) stall teams have great difficulty beating him.
 
I'm liking this offensively inclined metagame alot. As I've said before, Heracross is 'just right' and has injected some life (and skill) back into the UU tier. This metagame is back to being a test of both players' battling and team building skills. Those who are inadequately prepared will simply see their teams obliterated.
 
"Thund91 said:
Yup. But when people love spamming Fake Out that's not how it turns out is it?
I've yet to see a (good player using) Ambipom not use Fake Out on turn 1 without prior knowledge of his opponent's team @_@

This is your entire argument against "Milotic for BL". But you haven't told us what sets up on Milotic. The most common set appears to be Surf / Recover / Ice Beam / HP Grass. Also, Haze is found on ( 24.4 / 80.9 [Leftovers Milotic]) around 30% of defensive Milotic in August.
Well um ... anything that can OHKO / 2HKO + outspeed Milotic can also set up on it, e.g. Venusaur can switch in, live any attack and put something to sleep or perhaps throw out Leech Seed. Uxie can switch in, live any attack, put up Stealth Rock and maybe paralyze Milotic (a paralyzed Milotic is a significantly worse wall, after all, despite triggering Marvel Scale). There's also CM Clefable, NP or SD Toxicroak, Jumpluff, and so on and so forth ...

If Milotic doesn't have Haze, there are other Pokemon that can set up on it, such as bulky Feraligatr or CM Tomb. If it doesn't have HP Grass, Azumarill can easily put up Sub. If it doesn't have Ice Beam, grass types have a field day. If it doesn't have Surf, it wouldn't be a Milotic. If it has all three attacks, it's vulnerable to status, especially Toxic Poison.

Although Milotic does wall a massive part of the metagame, it is a defensive Pokemon, and defensive Pokemon by their nature give their opponents a chance to set up / bring in a counter etc which is why I think the OC and DC aren't equivalent, and why more Pokemon are banned under the OC than DC.
 

Arcticblast

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Well um ... anything that can OHKO / 2HKO + outspeed Milotic can also set up on it, e.g. Venusaur can switch in, live any attack and put something to sleep or perhaps throw out Leech Seed. Uxie can switch in, live any attack, put up Stealth Rock and maybe paralyze Milotic (a paralyzed Milotic is a significantly worse wall, after all, despite triggering Marvel Scale). There's also CM Clefable, NP or SD Toxicroak, Jumpluff, and so on and so forth ...

If Milotic doesn't have Haze, there are other Pokemon that can set up on it, such as bulky Feraligatr or CM Tomb. If it doesn't have HP Grass, Azumarill can easily put up Sub. If it doesn't have Ice Beam, grass types have a field day. If it doesn't have Surf, it wouldn't be a Milotic. If it has all three attacks, it's vulnerable to status, especially Toxic Poison.

Although Milotic does wall a massive part of the metagame, it is a defensive Pokemon, and defensive Pokemon by their nature give their opponents a chance to set up / bring in a counter etc which is why I think the OC and DC aren't equivalent, and why more Pokemon are banned under the OC than DC.
That's Milotic's problem - it needs 5 or 6 moves to really be effective as a wall. Of course, it can only run four. Typical moveslot syndrome.

I'd like to say though that ResTalk Milotic is incredibly bulky. It can regain HP, clear and BECOME IMMUNE TO status for a couple turns, and become much, much harder to PP stall. I just went up against one with my Mantine - the battle between them was 1 on 1, all other Pokemon dead. I barely won.
 

FlareBlitz

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Has anyone been running rain right now? I just played a few games and it is ridiculously effective. Heracross has increased Arcanine/Moltres usage substantially and decreased Slowbro/Tangrowth usage, and in general it has caused stall to become completely non-existent (20+ games, no stall teams) which means that once I set up rain and bring out Relicanth (>_>) I can pretty much do whatever the fuck I want to the opponent's core.
A lot of the Pokemon experiencing usage spikes due to Heracross do jack shit to rain teams, and even Toxicroak is getting replaced by Heracross on many teams (somewhat understandable). It's a great time to be a rain user ;3
 

FlareBlitz

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I dunno about that. People could, and did, prepare for it in the previous metagame because they had no other standout threat to really prepare for...but if someone in this metagame runs Gardevoir or Tangrowth or Slowbro or something they're just asking to get shit on by Heracross, and Toxicroak is facing stiff moveslot competition from Heracross (even though using both is extremely effective...hint hint) so I've had a much easier time using rain without having to worry about when some random Pokemon will show up that will cause me issues.

Hell all I do is just spam Head Smash/Waterfall with Relicanth until everything that can wall Kabutops dies and then sweep with Tops. It's been very mechanical and consistent strategy and there's not a lot that can stop it right now whereas before I'd have to worry about Quagsires and Tangrowths and Exeggutors and shit.
 

Arcticblast

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I infrequently use a Rain team on the ladder, and it destroys teams. Nobody expects an Omastar to use Rain Dance. Rain, as always, has enormous potential.
 

Delta 2777

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Alright, I didn't read much of this thread other than the OP so sorry if this was already mentioned: how/when will we determine a voter pool for Heracross? Since we're no longer running the Smogon University ladder on Shoddy Battle, is Heracross sticking to UU while we wait out Pokelab?
 
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