1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Data Official Smogon University Gen VI Simulator Statistics — October 2013

Discussion in 'Competitive Discussion' started by Antar, Nov 4, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. NocturnalQuill

    NocturnalQuill

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Messages:
    42
    Megas should be counted as completely different from their normal forms imo, given the drastic changes between some of them (Absol, Mawile, and Kangaskhan immediately come to mind).
  2. Delibird is Amazing

    Delibird is Amazing

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2013
    Messages:
    363
    if you want to use the mega, you have to use the non mega form. It is impossible for them to be tiered seperately
    Antar and TROP like this.
  3. NocturnalQuill

    NocturnalQuill

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Messages:
    42
    They could easily just ban the held item in higher tiers. Calculating mega usage vs all other pokemon would be pretty easy too.
  4. youngjake93

    youngjake93

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1,550
    Alakazam has 135/120 special offense and fell into BL in gen 2 thanks to Dark type. It also had one of THE BEST movepools that gen.
    Anything can happen
  5. Ballofire

    Ballofire Banned deucer.

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2013
    Messages:
    172
    Alakazam would probably still be UU or BL if it wasn't for magic gaurd lol. Magic Guard focus sash or LO made it shine. It's shitty defenses are what held it back, something the Lati do not struggle with.

    Also just realised how amazing greninja truly is. With a LO it hits like a truck, fuck spikes set, full offense is #1
    Jaguar360 likes this.
  6. Calm_Mind_Latias

    Calm_Mind_Latias

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2013
    Messages:
    428
    I am surprised that no one is using AncientPower on Heatran though. It still cannot KO (with Stealth Rock) Talonflame without some SpAtk EVs, but it is the best attack it has to deal with it. The 10% chance for a stat boost is a nice lagniappe though.

    The prevalence of Talonflame seems to be enough to justify its usage.
  7. Magnemite

    Magnemite @_@
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2013
    Messages:
    933
    Alakazam was actually BL2 before Magic Guard. However, I don't think Latios could possibly fall to UU/BL. It's just so fast, has good special bulk, and hits like an absolute truck with its insane Draco Meteor. While Psychic is a horrid defensive typing, it at least gives it STAB Psyshock to work with and it still has great coverage options with over 70 power AND accuracy (imagine that, Alakazam!), like Surf and especially BoltBeam to deal with Togekiss and Azumarill. However, Haxorus is a whole different story, along with a couple of the other low OU dragons. I can honestly see XY BL having at least three dragons in it.
    Aragorn the King likes this.
  8. Ballofire

    Ballofire Banned deucer.

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2013
    Messages:
    172
    What? That was my point, he was BL before he had magic guard. I just played a few games with Lati, subbing him out for my LO greninja, he performed well against, but not as well as he used to IMO. I found my self forced out a lot more thanks to the newer threats. This is at 2400+ btw However he isn't going to be UU at all.

    Haxorus is for sure going down to BL. It's DD set may not be so great in OU thanks to its speed tier but in UU a DD Hax could potential sweep a team at +1. Iremember when PO dropped it to UU, lasted a week and was banned lol

    Edit - if Latios sticks around I doubt people will run specs/scarf anymore and with those gone ebelt potentially goes as well failing to have a niche since more people will expect it. LO +3 attacks with roost seems to be the way to go.
  9. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2008
    Messages:
    2,927
    You mean BL2, right? BL is UU's banlist while BL2 is RU's banlist. Alakazam got banned from RU, but not UU. It didn't even make it up to UU before the next tiering shift bumped it to OU.
  10. Ballofire

    Ballofire Banned deucer.

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2013
    Messages:
    172
    What gen are you talking about? Gen 4 and 5 he was UU he was OU for most of gen 5 though. But he was UU at some point.
  11. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest lovin'
    is a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,432
    Alakazam was UU in DPP. It started in BW as RU, then was suspected and banned to BL2 before moving straight to OU in January 2012.
  12. KurashiDragon

    KurashiDragon

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2008
    Messages:
    826
    It's to soon to tell but I think Choice items might drop for lati@s. Fairies can jump into a choiced draco meteor to easily and set up in their face. Nobody wants to think about letting a belly drum Azumarill set up so easily. O_O

    I really wonder how Rain is gonna fair this gen though. I always hated weather in gen 5 but even for 6 days worth of a tier list, Politoed is pretty low down there at 55 which is kinda sad really. Sun is pretty abyssmal with Ninetails not even in the OU spectrum though I noticed the 1% of sun usage doesn't account for Charizard Y which got drought too. Hail has always been lolz so it being used so little doesn't surprise me at all really. Makes me kinda wish it was the only weather that was still permanent. Sand seems to be the only thing that survived the nerf and that's only because Tyranitar is freaking awesome. Once again, I know this is just 6 days worth a ban list but even so, it gives a telling message of just how bad the weather nerf really was.
  13. papita

    papita

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2010
    Messages:
    87
    Talonflame can´t touch Heatran anyways so why would you waste a moveslot with an attack that only has the purpose to hit a pokemon Heatran doesn´t struggle with?
  14. Calm_Mind_Latias

    Calm_Mind_Latias

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2013
    Messages:
    428
    It could Toxic stall it, but AncientPower seems to be an option if Tran is using Wisp as its status move instead of Toxic. Tran has few attacks as its common attacks (Fire attacks, Earth Power, Flash Cannon, HP Electric, HP Grass ) fail to do significant damage.

    Your opponent could switch out if it hits Heatran, but it seems that a Talonflame with Roost (watch out for Earth Power) Swords Dance would eventually prevail if Heatran lacks without Toxic. (I might be wrong, but Tran could be worn out.)
  15. papita

    papita

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2010
    Messages:
    87
    Brave bird and Acrobatics are 2HKO vs Heatran at +2 so i was wrong in my statement but really if you need Ancientpower to counter Talonflame then you shouldn´t rely on Heatran to counter it.
  16. Private Affair

    Private Affair

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Messages:
    61
    Surprised at the lack of Manectric. Mega Manectric has blazing speed, a superb SpA stat, a good ability and decent coverage. It can check Greninja, Talonflame, Aegislash, Scizor, Garchomp, Dragonite, Azumarill, Klefki, Noivern and many more. Keep sleeping on him. :]
  17. Karpi

    Karpi

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2007
    Messages:
    215
    Trying to make a productive post here:
    Only ~15% of Talonflame are using Will-o-wisp right now, and yet that move completely screws over its 4 most common switchins. I expect more people to start using that once it becomes more apparent.
  18. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2008
    Messages:
    2,927
    You sure about either of those statements?

    0 Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 348-412 (117.17 - 138.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    0 Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 348-412 (96.66 - 114.44%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO

    0 SpA Heatran AncientPower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 292-348 (98.31 - 117.17%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
    0 SpA Heatran AncientPower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 292-348 (81.11 - 96.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Considering speed tiers being what they are now (warped beyond all reason), Heatran will probably start running bulky offensive now, making the above calcs all but irrelevant; it can and should be killing any Talonflame it comes across.
  19. Calm_Mind_Latias

    Calm_Mind_Latias

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2013
    Messages:
    428
    I meant to say without Stealth Rock (obviously saying with Rocks would be preposterously wrong), but using the Honkcalculator and using 112 HP on Talonflame (the suggested spread on this forum to outspeed max speed base 100s to hit with Flare Blitz) does not score a guaranteed KO on Talonflame without some SpAtk Evs.

    Thanks for correcting me with Stone Edge, I just immediately thought about AncientPower because it is a special attack (and it is more reliable though); Stone Edge's high base power makes it more powerful than AncientPower despite Heatran's 90 Atk vs 130 SpAtk.

    Still, Rotom-W and Landorus-T are better checks/counters
  20. Patrick1088

    Patrick1088

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2013
    Messages:
    551
    Wow is very good but it has ti take a moveslot. What are you willing o drop? Priority roost? Priority brave bird? Great coverage in flare blitz? Or sd which boosts talonflames mediocre attack?
    granted the one move it COULD spare is flare blitz since flying hits all but rock steel and electric types neutrally which 2/3 are screwed over by wow. But i think rotom-h is a better position thanks to better bulk and less weaknesses imo as a wow spreader..
  21. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2008
    Messages:
    2,927
    Which is why we're not talking about that, but rather that 'non-guaranteed KO' you were alluding to.

    0 SpA Heatran AncientPower vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite (custom): 292-348 (89.84 - 107.07%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

    ^ Still not a good position for Talonflame, and we are talking about the weakest possible Heatran. Any feasible investment will kill, making Heatran a hard counter.
  22. 56k

    56k

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2013
    Messages:
    203
    All I can say is tiering is definitely going to be a mess. BL will either be absolutely massive or incredibly tiny, and UU will be a very very interesting tier. I could see UU being the tier where drizzle, drought, and hail are popular. OU is the tier of ridiculous priority attacks, so down in UU speed will be more useful, and swiftswim could be great. Gen 6 is probably the most exciting competitive environment I've ever seen in pokemon.
    bobismoi and Jaguar360 like this.
  23. MagnetBoy

    MagnetBoy

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2013
    Messages:
    76
    rotom-w is the most common switch in to talonflame usually since it can volt switch right out or predictably WoW whatever comes in and obviously resists both STABs. WoW does not cripple rotom-w at all.
  24. papita

    papita

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2010
    Messages:
    87
    Heatran still needs a rock type move to counter Talonflame so my question is it is worth sacrificing a moveslot to kill Talonflame?
  25. MagnetBoy

    MagnetBoy

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2013
    Messages:
    76
    no, since talonflame will obviously never stick around to fight a heatran
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)