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1. Well it can still run EQ if you have problems handling it.
2. Mlopunny, how many pokemon are you ready to sack to wear out zardX with fake out Mlop?
3.+1 zardx not 2hkoing mega Altaria:
+1 152+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Mega Altaria: 183-216 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Come again?
4. +1 152+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 126-148 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 92.7% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Mega Slowbro Scald vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 124-147 (34.5 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Actually if there's no more priority, CharX should go for the 2nd DD.
+2 152+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
CharX wins, a more offensive spread and outrage makes it easier.
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
People seem to have started underselling it. It is still a nightmare when running stall.
People just want to see things drop, it's sad really. You make tons of good points, and they seem to forget that it's the fact that Megazard X CAN run those sets that make him S. He is still the best DDer in the game, as I've said before;
Mega Altaria is a defensive Dragon Dancer, he is outclassed by stats and typing in the offensive department, while Megazard X is outclassed in the defensive department. He is heavily versatile and that is the reason behind its S rank. It does not need to drop, it performs as well as it ever did. Do you guys even realize that Megazard X doesn't need any more support in ORAS than he did in XY? The only change? Would you rather run a defensive or offensive DD sweeper? That doesn't justify a drop.
Edit: Oh and Megazard X is faster and stronger than Mega Gyarados, just saying.
I'm pretty sure Charizard X is already A+, it moved down a few weeks ago and for whatever reason alexwolf is waiting to update the thread. Along with Charizard X dropping, Keldeo and Latios also dropped while Mega Metagross and Thundurus rose to S
People just want to see things drop, it's sad really. You make tons of good points, and they seem to forget that it's the fact that Megazard X CAN run those sets that make him S. He is still the best DDer in the game, as I've said before;
Mega Altaria is a defensive Dragon Dancer, he is outclassed by stats and typing in the offensive department, while Megazard X is outclassed in the defensive department. He is heavily versatile and that is the reason behind its S rank. It does not need to drop, it performs as well as it ever did. Do you guys even realize that Megazard X doesn't need any more support in ORAS than he did in XY? The only change? Would you rather run a defensive or offensive DD sweeper? That doesn't justify a drop.
The issue with Zard-X is the nature of these archetypes that has manifested and has very little to do with some illusion that it has a bad defensive typing. The difference with M-Altaria is that it's more self sufficient from a team standpoint as well because it doesn't have to be a Dragon Dancer and can pull off the other sets consistently. Charizard-X as mentioned previously is not one of the central faces of Stall anymore in comparison to M-Sableye for example. The best Dragon Dancer in the tier is a highly subjective term after M-Mence leaving and is more so dependent on how it fares from the team-building perspective.
Also learn how to edit your posts so you don't double/triple post.
This was due to Mega Salamence competition that no longer exists. Mega Charizard X has the tailwind set up that AM addressed. I'm not saying go A+ or go S. I'm simply stating that people want to move him down because at first glance it looks as if he lost some viability, which isn't the case. He traded the WoW set for the Tailwind set, and this set is absolutely devastating. By the way, read S rank definition. Mega Charizard X runs more than one set extremely well but even if he only ran one, he would still be S rank viable.
If we're talking about Mega Charizard X's placement we need to address the SD/Tailwind set as well because that right there is not uncontested, is a really underrated set in providing self and team support, and should be discussed if the set has enough merits to push it to S rank or not. I know MegaScizor made a mention of this in the under rated sets section so he probably can speak on it more. I do believe Char-X has the merits of staying in A+ but there's not a real point in arguing all the traits we've established yet failed to address the set none of these Dragon Dancers can pull off as well and the one set I believe has became more viable due to its competition as a Dragon Dancer. I'll probably edit if I have any nominations or move ups/down but for now I'm mostly agreeing with everything CelticPride said more or less.
This is an extremely underrated set. I actually tried this yesterday and I won 7/8 battles. Seriously, this set is fantastic. I used my Mandibuzz for tailwind and it was gg after that.
Zard X: S -> A+
DD Zard X is pretty much shit right now cause there are a few more threatning mons like mdiancie (which can live any hit from +1 non eq zard x), mlopunny (which can wear zard x down by coming in and klicking fake out), maltaria (which dont gets even 2hkoed by +1 zard x), mslowbro (which counters easiliy) and a few other megas which are able to do hell of a lot of damage to it like mgallade, mbeedrill, msceptile, mswampert etc. The only really good set right now is the bulky wisp set which still does its work on stall and balanced teams pretty well so zard x should move down imo.
You undersell Gyarados. It doesn't give a flip about stall when it runs either Taunt or Substitute. It's perfectly capable of setting up. Similarly, you'd be surprised how often that 20% flinch from Waterfall comes in handy. Mold Breaker is also one of the best abilities a sweeper could want. Power isn't all that matters when it comes to sweeping. I'd say Gyarados' main disadvantage is its lower speed tier. It usually needs two dances to do its job, but between Taunt and Substitute, it has a relatively easier time getting to that many boosts.
That's a bit subjective, that +2 Dragon Dance can be an extreme pain, and he's right when he says the power drop is significant, and when you pair that with the speed difference between the two and Megazard X's nuclear Flare Blitz, it's clear that Megazard X is the victor between these two. Megazard X and Megados fill almost the exact same role, but Megazard X hits harder, needs less set ups, and is much faster. Mega Altaria is the only real competition imo, although they use Dragon Dance differently.
Please stop double posting :[
Use the edit function to add more information to your posts.
Edit: To have some actual content to this post, I support Mega Charizard X moving down to A+ mainly for reasons stated previously, such as how it is no longer a good choice for stall teams, as its bulky WoW set was probably the best. Charizard also got 2 new hard checks in Mega Altaria and Mega Diancie, which is problematic.
Excadrill takes care of both of these Pokemon, and Excadrill has always been an extremely reliable Megazard X companion, little has actually changed for Megazard X other than some new competition. Seriously needing support doesn't drop it to A+, if a Pokemon didn't need support they'd be in Ubers, unless you're Greninja.
Does it perform well? Yes
Is it self sustainable against over 80% of the meta? Yes
Does it have counters? Yes
Does it have good offenses and bulk? Yes
I can see some points for dropping but really they aren't enough, as I said, try out the Tailwind set. You'll take down everything.
This was due to Mega Salamence competition that no longer exists. Mega Charizard X has the tailwind set up that AM addressed. I'm not saying go A+ or go S. I'm simply stating that people want to move him down because at first glance it looks as if he lost some viability, which isn't the case. He traded the WoW set for the Tailwind set, and this set is absolutely devastating. By the way, read S rank definition. Mega Charizard X runs more than one set extremely well but even if he only ran one, he would still be S rank viable.
Please stop double posting :[
Use the edit function to add more information to your posts.
Edit: To have some actual content to this post, I support Mega Charizard X moving down to A+ mainly for reasons stated previously, such as how it is no longer a good choice for stall teams, as its bulky WoW set was probably the best. Charizard also got 2 new hard checks in Mega Altaria and Mega Diancie, which is problematic.
The issue with Zard-X is the nature of these archetypes that has manifested and has very little to do with some illusion that it has a bad defensive typing. The difference with M-Altaria is that it's more self sufficient from a team standpoint as well because it doesn't have to be a Dragon Dancer and can pull off the other sets consistently. Charizard-X as mentioned previously is not one of the central faces of Stall anymore in comparison to M-Sableye for example. The best Dragon Dancer in the tier is a highly subjective term after M-Mence leaving and is more so dependent on how it fares from the team-building perspective.
Also learn how to edit your posts so you don't double/triple post.
To the Charx vs Megados argument, people need to realize how much stronger Charx is:
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 381-448 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 325-384 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 433-511 (67.4 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
No setup Charx is way stronger than +1 Megados, thanks to moves' base power. He can also run outrage.
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 570-672 (88.7 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 541-637 (84.2 - 99.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Megados may be bulkier, but the difference in power (and speed) is too significant for them to be in the same tier. When you can't outspeed positive base 130 (70 if scarfed) after a DD, you are easily revenge killed.
PS: Mega Altaria walls Megados much harder than CharX.
I may seem like bashing Megados but I ran both and CharX was much more reliable at pulling off a sweep. I was very disappointed by the big shrimp.
You undersell Gyarados. It doesn't give a flip about stall when it runs either Taunt or Substitute. It's perfectly capable of setting up. Similarly, you'd be surprised how often that 20% flinch from Waterfall comes in handy. Mold Breaker is also one of the best abilities a sweeper could want. Power isn't all that matters when it comes to sweeping. I'd say Gyarados' main disadvantage is its lower speed tier. It usually needs two dances to do its job, but between Taunt and Substitute, it has a relatively easier time getting to that many boosts.
I will edit this later cuz i g2g, but I can outline this post
1. SD/Tailwind/flare blitz/outrage is the set that takes the place of bulky willo set that previously put him into S
2. Still a fantastic DDer, even if he has more competition
3. Has unique tools and typing that allows him to utilize his moveset in a way that the other dders cant
Mega Medicham to B+.
Everyone knows why, no-one's really denying it, I've already said it twice here so it's probably getting repetitive but this is the first time it's actually relevant, Mega Gallade just outclasses it in most every way. It still has greater initial power and fake out, so I don't think it deserves lower than B+, but I don't think those let it deserve any higher.
Seconded. Megallade has better bulk, longevity, and setup while only lacking Medichams immediate power ; and is in a MUCH better speed tier, tying the Latis and outspeeding Keldeo and Terrakion. In addition, Mega Gallade has better priority in shadow sneak and is much more versatile with moves such as will o, bulk up, and pain split in it's arsenal, making a bilkier set completely viable, unlike Medicham.
I have to disagree with Sylveon's placement as a B- Rank.
The page you linked Sylveon to has a build for Sylveon that doesn't maximize its potential.
It should know:
Moonblast (Heavy-hit with STAB)
Hyper Voice (Double battles, or to be used against Fire/Poison-types)
Draining Kiss (HP recovery)
Swift (to hit evasive foes, or to be used against Fire/Poison-types)
Alternatively, if you give Sylveon a Metronome to hold, Hyper Voice could be substituted with Echoed Voice, and used in succession.
Sylveon will also be more of a heavy-hitter if it has the ability Pixilate, but it can also keep Cute Charm to allow Hyper/Echoed Voice and Swift to hit Fire/Poison-types.
As far as Effort Values go, it can either be well-rounded for survivability, or if you want it to be a heavy-hitter, you can use 252 Sp. Atk, and the rest of the EV's are whatever you prefer.
I'd also like to point out that if you opt for the heavy-hitter Sylveon, it becomes extremely easy to sweep an entire team if the team doesn't have a Steel/Fire/Poison type to resist your attacks.
Welcome to smogon.
...
(>_>)
Anyways, I've seen a bunch of arguments so instead of quoting 9 different people lets just address this all at once:
Mega Zard x is stronger, faster, and requires less set up than both mega altaria and mega gyarados, with better stabs to boot.
However, mega altaria and mega diancie even manage to offer competition because they set up much, much easier.
Mega altaria has godly defensive typing and sets up on countless crap like keldeo, latios, garchomp, gyarados, landorus, seriously fucking shit this thing sets up everywhere. Top this off with reliable recovery and its golden. Thing is, mono fairy coverage is rly nice but doesn't cover enough, and you're kinda weak with a pathetic 110/110 offenses, your only saving grace being adaptability.
Then you have to consider its versatility and its definitely a worthy contender.
Mega Gyarados is up there because its STABS are great but mostly because of the amount of raw shit it can check, most notably ninja, before and after mega evo. The core basis of what makes this guy great is his ability to set up and play mind games with the timing of his mega evolution. He also has a great defensive typing before and after mega evolution, offensively and defensively, and has Substitute and Taunt to mess with stall to kind of salvage the lack of BP of his stabs.
Keep in mind mega zard x is 4x weak to rocks before mevo and 2x after, while mega altaria and mega gyarados are 2x weak before and neutral after. This lowers the need of hazard control somewhat.
So basically, each has their own reasons they're up there, but honestly, I look at it this way:
The offensive prowess of char-x alone puts it at A+
But since its bulky wisp set is heavily outclassed now (which was what pushed it to S), it should go back to A+
I have to disagree with Sylveon's placement as a B- Rank.
The page you linked Sylveon to has a build for Sylveon that doesn't maximize its potential.
It should know:
Moonblast (Heavy-hit with STAB)
Hyper Voice (Double battles, or to be used against Fire/Poison-types)
Draining Kiss (HP recovery)
Swift (to hit evasive foes, or to be used against Fire/Poison-types)
Alternatively, if you give Sylveon a Metronome to hold, Hyper Voice could be substituted with Echoed Voice, and used in succession.
Sylveon will also be more of a heavy-hitter if it has the ability Pixilate, but it can also keep Cute Charm to allow Hyper/Echoed Voice and Swift to hit Fire/Poison-types.
As far as Effort Values go, it can either be well-rounded for survivability, or if you want it to be a heavy-hitter, you can use 252 Sp. Atk, and the rest of the EV's are whatever you prefer.
I'd also like to point out that if you opt for the heavy-hitter Sylveon, it becomes extremely easy to sweep an entire team if the team doesn't have a Steel/Fire/Poison type to resist your attacks.
Uhhh... Did you just mention swift? That move is not viable competitively whatsoever.
The standard moveset for specs sylveon is Hyper Voice / Baton Pass / Psyshock / Hidden Power Fire or Ground, the moves you listed don't make sense at all.
I have to disagree with Sylveon's placement as a B- Rank.
The page you linked Sylveon to has a build for Sylveon that doesn't maximize its potential.
It should know:
Moonblast (Heavy-hit with STAB)
Hyper Voice (Double battles, or to be used against Fire/Poison-types)
Draining Kiss (HP recovery)
Swift (to hit evasive foes, or to be used against Fire/Poison-types)
Alternatively, if you give Sylveon a Metronome to hold, Hyper Voice could be substituted with Echoed Voice, and used in succession.
Sylveon will also be more of a heavy-hitter if it has the ability Pixilate, but it can also keep Cute Charm to allow Hyper/Echoed Voice and Swift to hit Fire/Poison-types.
As far as Effort Values go, it can either be well-rounded for survivability, or if you want it to be a heavy-hitter, you can use 252 Sp. Atk, and the rest of the EV's are whatever you prefer.
I'd also like to point out that if you opt for the heavy-hitter Sylveon, it becomes extremely easy to sweep an entire team if the team doesn't have a Steel/Fire/Poison type to resist your attacks.
Moonblast is inferior to Hyper Voice in every conceivable way. It has less power and Pixilate Hyper Voice hits thru subs. And this section is for singles only - Doubles strategies have no place here.
Additionally, Swift does absolutely nothing because it has a very low BP and Evasion is nonexistent because of Evasion Clause.
Welcome to smogon.
...
(>_>)
Anyways, I've seen a bunch of arguments so instead of quoting 9 different people lets just address this all at once:
Mega Zard x is stronger, faster, and requires less set up than both mega altaria and mega gyarados, with better stabs to boot.
However, mega altaria and mega diancie even manage to offer competition because they set up much, much easier.
Mega altaria has godly defensive typing and sets up on countless crap like keldeo, latios, garchomp, gyarados, landorus, seriously fucking shit this thing sets up everywhere. Top this off with reliable recovery and its golden. Thing is, mono fairy coverage is rly nice but doesn't cover enough, and you're kinda weak with a pathetic 110/110 offenses, your only saving grace being adaptability.
Then you have to consider its versatility and its definitely a worthy contender.
Mega Gyarados is up there because its STABS are great but mostly because of the amount of raw shit it can check, most notably ninja, before and after mega evo. The core basis of what makes this guy great is his ability to set up and play mind games with the timing of his mega evolution. He also has a great defensive typing before and after mega evolution, offensively and defensively, and has Substitute and Taunt to mess with stall to kind of salvage the lack of BP of his stabs.
Keep in mind mega zard x is 4x weak to rocks before mevo and 2x after, while mega altaria and mega gyarados are 2x weak before and neutral after. This lowers the need of hazard control somewhat.
So basically, each has their own reasons they're up there, but honestly, I look at it this way:
The offensive prowess of char-x alone puts it at A+
But since its bulky wisp set is heavily outclassed now (which was what pushed it to S), it should go back to A+
The way I interpreted it, based off what Alexwolf said, was that those changes only applied as long as Mence was still legal. The post Alexwolf made a few days ago:
Just a bit more patience guys, i will be back on Tuesday and we will get started with fixing the list, now that Mega Salamence has been banned. Actually, you can start talking about S and A+ ranks again, so we can save some time. See you in a few days ;D
And here is the list of changes that took and will take place until Mega Salamence's fate in OU is decided by the OU council:
Latios: S --> A+
Keldeo: S --> A+
Mega Charizard X: S ---> A+
Mega Metagross: A+ ---> S
Thundurus: A+ ---> S
Azumarill: A+ ---> A
Mega Charizard Y: A+ ---> A
Garchomp: A+ ---> A
Mew: A+ ---> A
Mega Pinsir: A+ ---> B
Mega Venusaur: A+ ---> A
I'm not really sure where I stand on Charizard X's placement, but when you keep raving about its "new" set you come off as new and misinformed considering this set has existed for a while and some people will automatically dismiss your arguement because of this.
Edit: this part was ninja'd by a lot of people
Anyways, because Charizard X faces more competition doesn't mean that it should drop. Just becaue Gyarados got Crunch, Mega Sableye is better on stall, and there's another dragon dancing mega doesn't make Charizard X any worse in itself.
Also, when I look at a pokemon's viablity in the transition to ORAS, I don't think "Out of the 10 new megas, it beats 3 of them and loses to 7. Therefore, it is less viable and should drop." To be blunt, the metagame isn't that simple. Due to the new megas being popular and added to the environment, the usage of their checks and counters (who more likely than not have been in existence for a long time) go up, therefore the usage of their checks and counters go up, and so on. A great example of this is Keldeo's viablity. Those who compare Keldeo to the new megas only (and these people are usually just theorymoning) may think that it should just drop automatically due to the speed creep and the fact that Mega Metagross, Diancie, and Gallade etc. beat it. However, pokemon such as Greninja got very popular due to move tutors and Keldeo happens to be a great offensive check to most Greninja sets. On the flip side, Tentacruel has received increased usage to deal with Greninja as well and it happens to wall Keldeo. And then Keldeo's best checks/counters have also dropped in usage such as Azumarill, Mega Venusaur, and the Lati@s. Finally, Keldeo has adapted to the speed creep by running scarf instead of specs to surprise and outspeed frailer, quicker, pokemon. (I'm not trying to make an arguement for or against Keldeo, I'm just using it as an example. For the record I think it should be A+, but I never thought it should have been S to begin with) Clearly, the new metagames' affect on existing pokemon goes beyond comparing that one pokemon to the new pokemon only. Some of the new pokemon might not even end up being relevant in OU. So, when people argue for a certain pokemon to rise or drop based only on comparing it to the new megas I get very annoyed because they are often cherry-picking their arguements, theorymoning, and not taking the entire metagame and how it has changed into account.
With that being said, I think I'm going to shoot the next person who wants Charizard X to rise just because Mega Salemence got banned or Charizard X to drop just because Mega Sableye is better on stall. I understand that these may contribute to your arguement but please do not make it your entire arguement.
Because Megazard X has better offensive typing and stats????????
There is no way anybody seriously think Mega Altaria has a distinct advantage. Mega Charizard X is the offensive DD sweeper and Mega Altaria is the defensive DD sweeper, me and many others have made that very clear. And if you read my language and tone, it was a joke.
Yes, but other than offensive stats, Altaria has everything else. Better defensive typing, much better bulk, the ability to go mixed and the ability to run more than one set efficiently, like a special set. Mega Altaria is clearly the better choice for most teams, although I'm not going to admit that Charizard is bad. Just overrated.
Yes, but other than offensive stats, Altaria has everything else. Better defensive typing, much better bulk, the ability to go mixed and the ability to run more than one set efficiently, like a special set. Mega Altaria is clearly the better choice for most teams, although I'm not going to admit that Charizard is bad. Just overrated.
Much better bulk? It's significantly more specially bulky, sure, but Mega Altaria is less physically bulky than Charizard X. I wouldn't call that "much" better, all things considered.
Honestly, I think comments like "Charizard X is more offensive, but that's about it" are simplifying it too much. Besides its higher offensive stats, it also has a significantly better Speed stat, a superior offensive typing, and great coverage between its strong STABs alone (Mega Altaria's Earthquake is really weak by comparison). Even some of the things that resist Dragon + Fire coverage such as Altaria and Azumarill take a crapload from a +1 Flare Blitz if they don't have a lot of physical bulk investment. Charizard X's offensive advantage goes beyond higher Attack; it beats Altaria in basically every offensive category.
I also disagree with the implication that Charizard X can only run one set efficiently. Besides the Dragon Dance set, the Double Dance thing that Mega Scizor posted a while back is still pretty cool, and Roost + 3 Attacks is still a pretty decent set. The bulky Will-O-Wisp set is also better than people give it credit for. I don't know why people are saying that it's outclassed by Mega Sableye when Sableye doesn't even beat the same things this set does (Charizard Y and Electrics, for example). I will say, however, that stall is hard pressed to run Charizard X when Mega Sableye and Slowbro and friends are so good, but balance and bulky offense can still appreciate it for the much higher offensive presence that it brings as opposed to its competition. I personally like running more Atk and Spe EVs on mine, something similar to what Bloo mentioned in the OP of his Player of the Week thread. It still tanks the hits it's supposed to while also hitting pretty hard in general.
I mean, I agree that Charizard X should stay in A+ thanks to the competition in tons of new Megas and new checks in stuff like Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, and Mega Slowbro. However, I also strongly disagree with sentiments that Mega Altaria heavily overshadows Charizard X except for small offensive advantages.
You are obviously new here, so I'm going to give you an all expenses paid "freebee" and not infract you for like the 3-4 forum rules you have already broken.
-Don't Double Post
-Make sure your posts actually ADD something to the discussion
-(and this especially) Lurk More before posting. Your posts show a general lack of understanding of the current metagame as well as an inability to reason and/or argue well. I highly advise that you take a break, take awhile to familiarise yourself with the OU metagame, and sign up for an OU Mentor. Failure to take my advice on board will result in a two point infraction.
Thank you for reading, and the Smogon Moderation Staff wishes you a pleasant day!
It most likely wasn't a joke, but whatever. I really think you're overestimating it as a Dragon Dancer. I think it's //ok// but at the moment, why would you not use Mega Altaria over it?
Why would you want charX?
1. Strong DUAL stabs (dragon and fairy are extremely redundant) with incredible coverage.
2. Higher immediate power.
3. Less prone to revenge killing, CharX is not weak to ice shard and resists bullet punch which murder M-Altaria. M-Altaria only resists mach punch and Charx is neutral.
4. More speed.
5. Charx is actually a little bit bulkier on the physical side (79/111 vs 75/110)
6. Every team appreciates a strong fire move.
7. Immune to burns
Alright, I've had the time to test this thing a bit more so I'll comment on raising it. Firstly, this thing is really good and I really underestimated it. Mega Camerupt hits ferociously hard, launching off powerful Fire Blasts and Earth Powers and being extremely difficult to switch into. Its typing is excellent, giving it really great synergy with a lot of things; including, but not limited to, Celebi, Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, Porygon2, and much more! I've been running it off of Trick Room and still works fantastically! A simple set of Fire Blast / Earth Power / Ancient Power / Will-O-Wisp is what I'm running and I must say, I'm really impressed by it thus far! But, what makes it worthy of moving up a rank? I truly don't think that it belongs in the same rank as Mega Latios, something which, when compared, is objectively worse. I'd rather compare it to Victini, another strong Fire-type nuke. They play vastly differently, but they do have that one trait in common and besides it they're both quite good. I support the movement of Mega Camerupt up to B+ Rank!
Can someone else post more about camerupt mega, because I would like to hear more before I give my counter argument. Here are some things Id like to be discussed(as I am pretty unaware of what he does, because I have never seen him used) I will say I think he deserves a drop, not a raise. Having a water ground weakness, with hardly any useful resistances doesnt seem like great typing. You can say he stops the volt switch, but rotom-w is the most common volt switcher and rotom just destroys camerupt. Also sure he resists bug, but the only relevant bug move is to u-turn, but he cant switch into a u-turn because whatever comes in will outspeed and kill him, or make you lose momentum. I am sure he is a monster on trick room teams but so are mons like exploud and crawdaunt., hitting hard is just not that relevant unless you can capitalize on that damage. Lets face it camerupt fire ground coverage is good, but when you think that he only has one chance to hit something coming in and flying types and water types are so common that he would have to struggle what move to pick just to hope to hit something neutrally. Idk like I said I dont really know how to talk about this mon because I just think he is awful and only good on trick room, and being good on trick room does not mean you should move up a rank. I am definitely open to changing my mind on him but I need more proof, besides "he pairs well with celebi" or "hes objectively better than mega latios"(which is exactly the problem I am talking about weighing opportunity cost too heavily, but thats for another time). So please enlighten me fellow camerupt lovers!
also no offense to unfixable, I just want a more comprehensive explanation to why he should move up.
It has an Electric immunity with a Fire resistance and neutrality to Ice, making it one of the better Electric-type responses (not named Rotom-W) in the tier; it also fares decently against the likes of Mega Scizor, Clefable, Mew, and Heatran, so you're really exaggerating the downsides of its defensive typing.
That said, not sure if MegaRupt should rise. The biggest competition MegaRupt faces would be from Landorus and to a lesser extent Victini, which have comparable power but have much better speed and versatility, plus they don't cost a Mega; MegaRupt can find itself a tad too slow to wallbreak too effectively. MegaRupt also lacks any reliable recovery that would have otherwise made its defensive typing a huge boon. I would think B is just right for it in the meantime.
Can someone else post more about camerupt mega, because I would like to hear more before I give my counter argument. Here are some things Id like to be discussed(as I am pretty unaware of what he does, because I have never seen him used)
Erm, it does have good resistances though. Fairy-, Electric-, and Fire-type resists are all quite nice.
You can say he stops the volt switch, but rotom-w is the most common volt switcher and rotom just destroys camerupt. Also sure he resists bug, but the only relevant bug move is to u-turn, but he cant switch into a u-turn because whatever comes in will outspeed and kill him, or make you lose momentum.
But the thing is why would you? Fire Blast actually dents Rotom-W (around 44%) and Will-O-Wisp bothers it, as does Toxic. What Bug-types kill it exactly? It lives Mega Pinsir's Earthquake, doesn't care what Mega Scizor throws at it (+2 Superpower is risky, doesn't KO without SR), Camerupt lives Mega Heracross' attacks, and in return it easily destroys them all via Fire Blast. I mean sure something can come in and take on Camerupt, but why would Camerupt just sit there and let the attack KO it? That can literally apply to anything, it's just that Camerupt shrugs off any and all U-turns which is what makes it annoying for VoltTurn teams.
I am sure he is a monster on trick room teams but so are mons like exploud and crawdaunt., hitting hard is just not that relevant unless you can capitalize on that damage. Lets face it camerupt fire ground coverage is good, but when you think that he only has one chance to hit something coming in and flying types and water types are so common that he would have to struggle what move to pick just to hope to hit something neutrally.
Trick Room teams are nice and all, but it can work without it. Also, I'm not sure what you mean in regards to Flying- and Water-types because:
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 141-166 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 188-222 (63.2 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Ancient Power OHKOes regardless)
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 139-164 (41.9 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Ancient Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Gyarados: 146-174 (37.1 - 44.2%) -- 53.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 273-322 (69.2 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (and Mega Camerupt runs enough Speed to outspeed this)
These are just a few examples, but I think you are getting the point; nothing switches into Mega Camerupt. Sure, the resists look bad on paper, but nothing is a safe switch in except like Rotom-W and Latias. I just think you're missing the point, it's not supposed to take all the hits and the world and it's not supposed to beat everything, it's supposed to force switches with boosted attacks and dent whatever it can.
Idk like I said I dont really know how to talk about this mon because I just think he is awful and only good on trick room, and being good on trick room does not mean you should move up a rank. I am definitely open to changing my mind on him but I need more proof, besides "he pairs well with celebi" or "hes objectively better than mega latios"(which is exactly the problem I am talking about weighing opportunity cost too heavily, but thats for another time). So please enlighten me fellow camerupt lovers!
It has an Electric immunity with a Fire resistance and neutrality to Ice, making it one of the better Electric-type responses (not named Rotom-W) in the tier; it also fares decently against the likes of Mega Scizor, Clefable, Mew, and Heatran, so you're really exaggerating the downsides of its defensive typing.
That said, not sure if MegaRupt should rise. The biggest competition MegaRupt faces would be from Landorus and to a lesser extent Victini, which have comparable power but have much better speed and versatility, plus they don't cost a Mega; MegaRupt can find itself a tad too slow to wallbreak too effectively. MegaRupt also lacks any reliable recovery that would have otherwise made its defensive typing a huge boon. I would think B is just right for it in the meantime.
Landorus is a big competition, I agree, but I'll do one more comparison: Latios to Mega Latios. Latios is in S Rank, Mega Latios is in B Rank. Notice how Landorus is in A+ Rank and Mega Camerupt is in B Rank? There's an obvious difference but I truly do think Camerupt's Fire Blast is enough to move it up. Also, this is the best counter to Mew in the entire game if you ask me n_n (or Mega Sableye).
Landorus is a big competition, I agree, but I'll do one more comparison: Latios to Mega Latios. Latios is in S Rank, Mega Latios is in B Rank. Notice how Landorus is in A+ Rank and Mega Camerupt is in B Rank? There's an obvious difference but I truly do think Camerupt's Fire Blast is enough to move it up. Also, this is the best counter to Mew in the entire game if you ask me n_n (or Mega Sableye).
I dont want to seem to be rude I just am really trying to wrap my head around this, because I cant think of one good reason to use camerupt over basically any other hard hitter in the tier. I mean he is slow, not just slow, slower than SLOWBRO, thats bad dude. I mean the resistances you mentioned are just not practical, I mean he loses to just about every fairy, diancie and altarias commonly carry ground moves and beat him, clefable has CM and will most likely be at +2 spdef before even taking a hit, azumaril wins obvi, so the fairy resist is irrelevant imo. The other two resistances are basically combined to help wall like 3 mons, being manec/thundy/raikou/. And as for the bug thing I didnt say bug pokemon beat him 1v1, I am just saying that having a resistance bug is irrelevant because he wouldnt want to switchin to the most common bug move(u-turn) because he gets outsped by the ENTIRE tier, so switching into u-turn is basically suicide for you r momentum. You even said yourself he cant switchinto SD scizor with rocks.
Then as for all those calcs you shown of mons that can switch in to and then ohko camerupt, you then say nothing can switchin? That doesnt make sense. But the point I was making is that if they have lando-t and slowbro you have to guess right otherwise you basically just wasted a turn, whereas other common "nukers" have more spammable stab like water or dragon that dont need to predict.
Idk I mean I want to also say that I get what you are saying, mainly that he hits hard and has decent typing that allows for some synergy and be apart of a fwg core, but what about hydreigon its in D rank and it has decent typing being immune to ground and psychic resisting, fire water grass etc, and he has a usable speed tier that can be increased with scarf because he doesnt have a mega stone.
I guess the last thing Ill say is that it seems he is a tough mon to bring in safely and its not just about bringing him in safely its about bringing him in safely on something he forces out and then he has to choose the right move in order to just dent whatever switches in. It doesnt seem worth it even in the best case scenario. That combod with how stall teams can easily switch around him, and how common rotom-w and latias are on balance/offense teams I just really cant find a situation where I would ever be benefitting from having camerupt on my team unless its a mono electric team or something. Also notice how I havent even mentioned opportunity cost, because if we are weighing that as much as everyone else has been I really think camerupt is in a tough spot.
Again, I dont use him but I also havent seen him used effectively ever, maybe if you could show some replays where camerupt is uniquely helpful, I would start to think of him in a better light. I am just truly trying to understnd what everyone else sees in him, and I just really am not, maybe Im being blind, but I just think more is needed to move him up to a rank that people wont even move sharpedo up to, who can outspeed and OHKO most of offense, and 2hko(and its sad to say but it also outspeeds stall, something camerupt cant even say about 1 mon.) all of stall with sr up. So yeah pardon anything that may sound rude or snarky, but I just want more convincing if anyone is up to it.
