Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[Albacore]

Okay so I don't think MCamerupt should move up, or down for that matter. MCamerupt isn't as bad as a lot of people seem to think it is, mainly because of the excellent synergy with a few pivots namely Celebi and Rotom-W which are able to not only take hits from it but also get it in safely (In fact I legitmately don't know why you would run MCam without Rotom or Celebi in all honestly), but there's one thing which really sets it back, and that's it inability to outspeed defensive Pokemon (bar Slowbro and Amoongus I guess). It's speed isn't too much of a problem against offense, in fact its defensive utility makes it quite a bit better vs offensive than most wallbreakers, however, it needs a lot of support to beat Stall teams. For instace, say you got Chansey to 50%. Any good special wallbreaker would just be able to deal 20% to it as it switches in, have SR deal 12%, and just finish it off from there. MCamerupt can't do this, which means you need to weaken Chansey twice as much in order to get past it. This is a real problem which can't really be ignored.

To expand on this, it can't clean Stall. It can break one thing at a time, but it can't just mow through a weakened Stall team like any other wallbreaker could because it'll just take repeated damage from the defensive Pokemon that outspeed it. Yeah, it certainly forces switches, but the opponent can easily choose to sack their wall to get enough damage off on Camerupt to the point where it dies from the next hit. As a result, MCamerupt is only going to be able to kill of 1-2 members of a stall team as opposed to a whole team. That's usually enough to get past the rest of the team, but it's not always enough, the opponent can easily just sack the walls he feels he does not need. You need to build really carefully around MCamerupt, and you can't expect it to beat any stall team minus Chansey on its own because it won't.

It's also heavily prediction-reliant, much more so than any other wallbreaker, once again due to its speed. Mcamerupt is able to hit basically everything on your average stall team bar Chansey for massive damage, howzver it needs to predict right to do so. If the opponent sends in, say, Tentacruel on a Fire Blast, Cammy is forced out. Any other wallbreaker would be able to KO it the next turn. Same applies to Gliscor and Earth Power. SO if you're facing a stall team with both Tenatcruel and SpD Gliscor (not unlikely), you're not guaranteed to break something even with Chansey gone.

Finally, it's very easy to wear down from experience, more so than YZard, Lando-I or MGarde. Once again, because of its speed. MCamerupt's speed is a really, really huge problem with it, if it had over 60-70 Speed it'd probably be up in the A-ranks.

tldr : MCamerupt requires too much support and too much skillfull play to move higher than B. I reckon it's more of a B- rank if you don't take Trick Room into account, the fact that it is devastating in that playstyle is what pushes it up to B.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Ok, I'm not necessarily sure what's been going on with Mega Sableye discussion, and honestly I'm too lazy to look through the massive amount of posts in this thread to find out. However, I've been using Mega Sableye a lot recently and I must say, it's been great. It's many immunities allow it to switch into scary Pokemon such as Gallade, Medicham, and others with ease. It's also probably the most viable spinblocker atm along with Gourgeist, which is really helpful when Pokemon such as Tentacruel are rising in popularity. It's the first truly bulky Magic Bounce Pokemon, and it plays its role beautifully, being able to switch into Chansey, for example, and bounce back Stealth Rock / Toxic / Thunder Wave. Its typing and ability combined with its good bulk allow it to pull off a really strong Calm Mind set that can sweep teams with ease once specially attacking Fairy-types / extremely powerful attackers have been removed. Finally, its only weaknesses are very easy to cover with the addition of something like Jirachi or Bronzong, for example, making it very easy to fit on a team. If this isn't enough to convince you, look at the most recent posts in this thread. A lot of them are suggesting drops BECAUSE of the presence Mega Sableye has on the metagame.

Overall, I say Mega Sableye for A / A+ due to the reasons stated above.

EDIT: Oh on a side note Zard should stay S, the DD set is still just as threatening.

 

[Kurona]

That said, not sure if MegaRupt should rise. The biggest competition MegaRupt faces would be from Landorus and to a lesser extent Victini, which have comparable power but have much better speed and versatility, plus they don't cost a Mega; MegaRupt can find itself a tad too slow to wallbreak too effectively. MegaRupt also lacks any reliable recovery that would have otherwise made its defensive typing a huge boon. I would think B is just right for it in the meantime.

Just something I feel I should note; while Lando-I doesn't cost a Mega, it does cost you the use of Lando-T, which a lot of people seem to forget.

 

[pwnémon]

Just something I feel I should note; while Lando-I doesn't cost a Mega, it does cost you the use of Lando-T, which a lot of people seem to forget.

true but using a lando-t with a landorus would offer no defensive synergy and you would be far better off using an alternative rocker/scarfer with landorus so its not really a big deal

 

[Of Moose & Men]

true but using a lando-t with a landorus would offer no defensive synergy and you would be far better off using an alternative rocker/scarfer with landorus so its not really a big deal

He meant you literally can't use them together.

In an attempt to keep this from being a one liner, I know my mind changed on mSableye being S, but, even after people got over the "new toy syndrome" mSableye is ridiculous. I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed (who am I kidding, of course you have) but the ladder is nothing but stall. I know the top portion of the ladder is usually stall, but no, pretty much the entire ladder is stall now, and one Pokemon is ALWAYS present on those teams. mSableye even with mGard and the wall breakers showing up, is ridiculous. mSableye is by far the best glue stall could have asked for. Although many may disagree with me, I am going back to saying mSableye should be S. As I stated previously, it IS support. The only problems being a few namely fairies and a few special wall breakers.

This thing is ridiculous. mMence left and paved a way for mSableye to take over, and it has.

 

[ExecutiveDave]

He meant you literally can't use them together.

His point was that you wouldn't want both formes on the same squad even if you could. Opportunity cost with megas is different as having one mega eliminates all the other megas potentially on your squad.

Having Lando-I eliminates being able to use Lando-T, so there is "some" opportunity cost, yet it's offset by not having great synergy to the point where you couldn't make a better duo. Yes your team has both lando formes, but you'd be better off just picking one.

 

[pika pal]

His point was that you wouldn't want both formes on the same squad even if you could. Opportunity cost with megas is different as having one mega eliminates all the other megas potentially on your squad.

Having Lando-I eliminates being able to use Lando-T, so there is "some" opportunity cost, yet it's offset by not having great synergy to the point where you couldn't make a better duo. Yes your team has both lando formes, but you'd be better off just picking one.

I think the point in turn wasn't whether or not the two Lando forms have synergy, but how it will limit Teambuilding to use one over the other, given their wildly different roles. Obviously both Pokemon have others that could fill a similar role (From S through B ranks)
Lando-I
- Wallbreaker: Mega Gardevoir, Zard-Y, Kyurem-B, Diggersby, Victini, Specs Sylveon, Crawdaunt
- (CM) Booster: DD Zard-X, Belly Jet Azumarill, Clefable, SD M-Gallade, Metagross, SD Scizor, Pinsir, Altaria, M-Slowbro, Sableye

Lando-T (Less experience with him, so apologies if I miss/misinterpret any of his roles)
- Scarfer/Revenge Killer: Greninja (natural speed), Scarf Keldeo, Garchomp, Talonflame, Aerodactyl, Sceptile
- Bulky Voltturn/Pivot: Scizor, Manectric, Rotom-W, Raikou, Tornadus-T

Looking at it, Landorus-I has an overall larger number of Pokemon that could substitute its roles, but Lando-T's seem to be at a generally higher viability. Notably, though, Lando-T can play both roles at once to, whereas Lando-I loses out on coverage if it goes CM. Lando-T's roles also seem like they make it easier to synergize or fit into a variety of teams. And from what I'm seeing, Lando-T is significantly more used, if not more viable, in the tier right now.

 

[pwnémon]

He meant you literally can't use them together.

I know but doing so would be poor teambuilding due to no defensive synergy and I could easily use Garchomp or hippo instead so it's irrelevant.

 

[Alfalfa]

I would like to get some discussion on

Garchomp for A- Rank. In this meta, Garchomp is not as good as it was in XY. Base 102 speed is missing out on a lot of important targets, and its capabilities as an offensive Stealth Rock setter for offensive teams is not that important anymore, because these teams usually run Terrakion, which is faster and has Taunt to stop Defog users, or Mamoswine, who has Oblivious to block Taunt and Endeavor + Ice Shard to grab a free KO. Aside from the niche Choice Scarf set to which Garchomp faces a lot of competition from Landorus-T, Garchomp's only real purpose in this metagame is to wallbreak with Swords Dance + Life Orb. Feel free to disagree, but I feel that at this point in the meta, almost all of the roles Garchomp could fulfill in BW2 and early XY, aside from wallbreaking, have been taken up by other Pokemon. I say Swords Dance + Life Orb because Lum Berry misses out on a lot of raw power that helps Garchomp achieve key OHKOs on a lot of common physical walls such as Chesnaught and Slowbro. While Life Orb Garchomp hits insanely hard, most offensive teams have a Pokemon that can outspeed and KO Garchomp before it wrecks havoc on their teams, such as Lati@s, Keldeo, MegaGross, MDiancie, Greninja, and MSceptile. At this point, I do not see Garchomp as on par with A Rank staples like Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, Mega Diancie, Mega Lopunny, and Slowbro (non-Mega and Mega), all of which are much more effective in the metagame than Garchomp, so I think a drop to A- Rank is completely warranted.

 

[Srn]

Ok, I'm not necessarily sure what's been going on with Mega Sableye discussion, and honestly I'm too lazy to look through the massive amount of posts in this thread to find out. However, I've been using Mega Sableye a lot recently and I must say, it's been great. It's many resistances and immunities allow it to switch into scary Pokemon such as Gallade, Medicham, and others with ease. It's also probably the most viable spinblocker atm along with Gourgeist, which is really helpful when Pokemon such as Tentacruel are rising in popularity. It's the first truly bulky Magic Bounce Pokemon, and it plays its role beautifully, being able to switch into Chansey, for example, and bounce back Stealth Rock / Toxic / Thunder Wave. Its typing and ability combined with its good bulk allow it to pull off a really strong Calm Mind set that can sweep teams with ease once specially attacking Fairy-types / extremely powerful attackers have been removed. Finally, its only weaknesses are very easy to cover with the addition of something like Jirachi or Bronzong, for example, making it very easy to fit on the team. If this isn't enough to convince you, look at the most recent posts in this thread. A lot of them are suggesting drops BECAUSE of the presence Mega Sableye has on the metagame.

Overall, I say Mega Sableye for A / A+ due to the reasons stated above.

EDIT: Oh on a side note Zard should stay S, the DD set is still just as threatening.

"many resistances"
the only one is poison ._.
Sableye has 3 immunities which is pretty sexy but it has nearly no relevant resists, so its defensive typing is not as great as you'd think.
Not to mention that its very overreliant on recover to make up for its low base speed, 50 base hp, and its subpar defensive typing.
But everything else you've said about it, countering mega gallade in particular is what makes it so fantastic and its easily A+

Also, the DD set is NOT just as threatening. Not only did it get more competition as a dragon dancer, it got more checks in mega diancie, mega slowbro, and meg altaria, and there's almost no reason to use its bulky wisp set now that mega sableye exists, its just too much of an opportunity cost for stall to NOT use mega sableye.
I think all this definitely amounts to a drop from S to A+

I would like to get some discussion on

Garchomp for A- Rank. In this meta, Garchomp is not as good as it was in XY. Base 102 speed is missing out on a lot of important targets, and its capabilities as an offensive Stealth Rock setter for offensive teams is not that important anymore, because these teams usually run Terrakion, which is faster and has Taunt to stop Defog users, or Mamoswine, who has Oblivious to block Taunt and Endeavor + Ice Shard to grab a free KO. Aside from the niche Choice Scarf set to which Garchomp faces a lot of competition from Landorus-T, Garchomp's only real purpose in this metagame is to wallbreak with Swords Dance + Life Orb. Feel free to disagree, but I feel that at this point in the meta, almost all of the roles Garchomp could fulfill in BW2 and early XY, aside from wallbreaking, have been taken up by other Pokemon. I say Swords Dance + Life Orb because Lum Berry misses out on a lot of raw power that helps Garchomp achieve key OHKOs on a lot of common physical walls such as Chesnaught and Slowbro. While Life Orb Garchomp hits insanely hard, most offensive teams have a Pokemon that can outspeed and KO Garchomp before it wrecks havoc on their teams, such as Lati@s, Keldeo, MegaGross, MDiancie, Greninja, and MSceptile. At this point, I do not see Garchomp as on par with A Rank staples like Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, Mega Diancie, Mega Lopunny, and Slowbro (non-Mega and Mega), all of which are much more effective in the metagame than Garchomp, so I think a drop to A- Rank is completely warranted.

I shall indeed disagree with what you've said, garchomp is simply one of the best offensive SR setters offense can really ask for as it is one of the only SR setters that can beat both mega Sableye and Tentacruel, the other being lando-i, and lando-i is severely held back from needing to waste its versatility and a whole moveslot on SR
THe set i'm referring to is obv SR SD lum chomp, you need the lum for obvious reasons. If you can get garchomp a free switch-in, the opposing team will obviously be forced into mega sableye to bounce back potential rocks as you grab a free SD.
You can then eq as the opponent probably wisps, and your lum soaks that up. Thus, you force mega sableye out at 30%~ or kill it outright, and you can even set rocks up as it switches out if you're feeling like a real ass nigga.
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 202-238 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (mega)
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 282-333 (92.7 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (normal)

If it stays prankster, then you have a good chance to OHKO, and even if you don't and it burns you the next turn you still kill it, and you get rocks up later on a free switch.
If you wear it down a little more you can just kill it after a single SD as well regardless, which is excellent.

The fact that SR SD lum chomp was an excellent SR setter in the first place just further bolsters its stability in A, you're not compromising much for getting a very advantageous position vs. mega sableye which is extremely relevant.

Also note that terrak and mamo completely lose to mega sableye. Garchomp for A.

 

[FieryTyrant]

"many resistances"
the only one is poison ._.
Sableye has 3 immunities which is pretty sexy but it has nearly no relevant resists, so its defensive typing is not as great as you'd think.
Not to mention that its very overreliant on recover to make up for its low base speed, 50 base hp, and its subpar defensive typing.
But everything else you've said about it, countering mega gallade in particular is what makes it so fantastic and its easily A+

Also, the DD set is NOT just as threatening. Not only did it get more competition as a dragon dancer, it got more checks in mega diancie, mega slowbro, and meg altaria, and there's almost no reason to use its bulky wisp set now that mega sableye exists, its just too much of an opportunity cost for stall to NOT use mega sableye.
I think all this definitely amounts to a drop from S to A+



I shall indeed disagree with what you've said, garchomp is simply one of the best offensive SR setters offense can really ask for as it is one of the only SR setters that can beat both mega Sableye and Tentacruel, the other being lando-i, and lando-i is severely held back from needing to waste its versatility and a whole moveslot on SR
THe set i'm referring to is obv SR SD lum chomp, you need the lum for obvious reasons. If you can get garchomp a free switch-in, the opposing team will obviously be forced into mega sableye to bounce back potential rocks as you grab a free SD.
You can then eq as the opponent probably wisps, and your lum soaks that up. Thus, you force mega sableye out at 30%~ or kill it outright, and you can even set rocks up as it switches out if you're feeling like a real ass nigga.
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 202-238 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (mega)
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 282-333 (92.7 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (normal)

If it stays prankster, then you have a good chance to OHKO, and even if you don't and it burns you the next turn you still kill it, and you get rocks up later on a free switch.
If you wear it down a little more you can just kill it after a single SD as well regardless, which is excellent.

The fact that SR SD lum chomp was an excellent SR setter in the first place just further bolsters its stability in A, you're not compromising much for getting a very advantageous position vs. mega sableye which is extremely relevant.

Also note that terrak and mamo completely lose to mega sableye. Garchomp for A.

I do agree that Garchomp should stay where it is, for all the reasons you've given. It still cuts holes in teams and for that it should stay exactly where it is.

As for ChaX? This whole discussion is honestly stupid. It is at S rank for now, how about we all chill out and watch how well it performs in this new meta before warranting a drop. New checks is no reason to drop a rank because if you are not using that Pokemon CharX is still a monstrous DD sweeper. As the people before me have stated, you cannot use other Pokemon as the basis of your entire argument. The DD sweeping set as a whole is just as viable as it ever was in the previous meta.


In fact while I'm here, I would just like to say that if CharX is deserving of S rank, which may or may not be the case, then Mega Altaria is too, correct? After lurking the past 10 pages it seems like a 50/50 split on whether CharX should drop or not, but nobody mentioned that since CharX actually only lost one set and performs all its others as well as it ever did, if Mega Altaria is just as good does it not warrant an S rank as well? I'm simply asking. I say we keep CharX where it is for now, and if we see some flaws in the coming weeks? Drop it. If we don't and/or just as many people use it? Keep it at S. I'm under the impression that while so many of you are quick to point out both Pokemon's flaws, aren't they performing almost the same role? Just with different offenses and defenses obviously. For that reason, if CharX stays S (which it could) Mega Altaria may need to move up as well. Both Pokemon are great at what they do and honestly no convincing argument has been made because nearly ALL of you haven resorted to; "Yeah well Pokemon X does this set better therefore lol drop it to A+." Maybe CharX should be A+, but nobody has given a single good reason why.

TL;DR: See how the meta plays out before dropping CharX, his DD set, despite competition and walls, still performs wonderfully.

On a side note, why is Mega Sceptile in A-? I am not for lowering its rank or lifting it, I literally just want to know why it's that high in the first place, and nobody seems to be complaining about it. Mega Sceptile has finally earned some love, I see.

I've used mega sceptile a lot before, and it's not too shabby. It has really good coverage, with focus blast, dragon pulse, and grass STAB + hidden powers. It has an epic speed tier, and is a great counter to rotom-w. It does however have some flaws, mainly it's super frail and weak to ice shard and birdspam. It's main role, however is the only special attacking, fast grass type in OU. (Note: Venusaur is not fast, and is mainly used for it's defensive sets)
Sceptile isn't really OP or anything, so it's not A+ or S, but it doesn't require too much team support, which makes it an A or A- mon.

That's actually quite interesting and frankly I'm very happy to see a Grass/Dragon type doing so well, thank you for the insight. Oh, before I forget, would you recommend Timid or Modest? I want to try this one out.

 

[firehusky]

I've used mega sceptile a lot before, and it's not too shabby. It has really good coverage, with focus blast, dragon pulse, and grass STAB + hidden powers. It has an epic speed tier, and is a great counter to rotom-w. It does however have some flaws, mainly it's super frail and weak to ice shard and birdspam. It's main role, however is the only special attacking, fast grass type in OU. (Note: Venusaur is not fast, and is mainly used for it's defensive sets)
Sceptile isn't really OP or anything, so it's not A+ or S, but it doesn't require too much team support, which makes it an A or A- mon.

 

[HolyAvatar]

I want to nominate Jirachi to A

The specially defensive wishtect set does so much work it isn't even funny.
It walls:
Mega Gardevoir (he already did)

Mega sceptile
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 102-121 (25.2 - 29.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 102-122 (25.2 - 30.1%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Mega Sceptile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 156-184 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Non EQ physical Mega Altaria (EQ versions are walled by skarm) and special versions
252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 105-124 (25.9 - 30.6%) -- 3.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Altaria Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 154-182 (38.1 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

And the usual shitload of shit like the lati, clefable and the rising specs sylveon.

It can even win against Greninja if it is healthy since with protect it heals 62.5% per turn and:
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 211-250 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It has so many viable sets that it's very hard predict. Last but not least, it can paraflinch hax its way out of desperate situations, ragequits and putting your opponent on tilt is always nice.

 

[LightningLuxray]

"many resistances"
the only one is poison ._.
Sableye has 3 immunities which is pretty sexy but it has nearly no relevant resists, so its defensive typing is not as great as you'd think.

Yeah I kinda fucked up here, I originally had "many resistances," but then I realized it's mostly immunities so I wrote "many immunities" but forgot to get rid of the resistance part. Also while they're somewhat limited, the immunities it has are very influential, especially the fighting one.

Also I'm not really sure if the addition of 3 (really 2 since Slowbro has always counter Zard X, regardless of whether or not it had a Mega forme) new counters are enough to bring it down, but the Wisp set losing a lot of its viability along with the previous fact definitely sucks. Should probably be A+.

I want to nominate Jirachi to A

The specially defensive wish pass set does so much work it isn't even funny.
It walls:
Mega Gardevoir (he already did)

Mega sceptile
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 102-121 (25.2 - 29.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 102-122 (25.2 - 30.1%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Mega Sceptile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 156-184 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Non EQ physical Mega Altaria (EQ versions are walled by skarm) and special versions
252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 105-124 (25.9 - 30.6%) -- 3.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Altaria Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 154-182 (38.1 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

And the usual shitload of shit like the lati, clefable and the rising specs sylveon.

It can even win against Greninja if it is healthy since with protect it heals 62.5% per turn and:
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 211-250 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It has so many viable sets that it's very hard predict. Last but not least, it can paraflinch hax its way out of desperate situations, ragequits and putting your opponent on tilt is always nice.

To help support this, I'd just like to mention how amazingly Jirachi pairs with Mega Sableye, covering its main weakness, Fairy-type attacks, while Mega Sableye can take most Knock Offs with ease (something Jirachi struggles with). Not to mention it still has plenty of other roles it can take on besides the SpD set, including a pretty awesome pivot one.

 

[firehusky]

In XY, charizard x alone as a dragon dancer was already a solid A+ mon. What pushed it over into S was the bulky stall wisp set. But now in ORAS, that set isn't good anymore due to mega sableye beating in general a better stallmon (in fact it's literally the face of ORAS stall) with w-o-w. CharX isn't S because of it's dd set, it's because of it's dd set and wisp set, but now that it's lost the wisp set, I think it should definitely be A+.

 

[AM]

I don't have a real opinion on where Jirachi is placed although I do see it towards A for the fact it's just superbly consistent when implemented and played well. Having a check to the Latis, being able to spam Body Slam with a 60% chance of paralysis on non Electric Types, Healing Wish, Wish, Stealth Rock resistance, typing to fit on pretty much most viable playstyles. It has a lot of positive aspects and I feel like the negatives that are apparent like being pursuit trapped can be mitigated with some basic team building.

 

[HolyAvatar]

I don't have a real opinion on where Jirachi is placed although I do see it towards A for the fact it's just superbly consistent when implemented and played well. Having a check to the Latis, being able to spam Body Slam with a 60% chance of paralysis on non Electric Types, Healing Wish, Wish, Stealth Rock resistance, typing to fit on pretty much most viable playstyles. It has a lot of positive aspects and I feel like the negatives that are apparent like being pursuit trapped can be mitigated with some basic team building.

Landorus-T/I would love to switch into it but are afraid of body slam. That alone relieves so much pressure on your team, it's incredible.
Even TTar/Weavile as pursuit trappers can fail since after being paralyzed, iron head makes quick work of them.

As and added benefit, wish pivoting is extremely good at keeping your defensive backbone healthy.

 

[firehusky]

Just like in gen 5, jirachi could also put in some work on rain teams, which have been rising in popularity due to politoed and mega swampert. Jirachi could run a set like body slam | thunder | u-turn | wish to support the team, and thunder has 100% accuracy in rain and a 60% chance to paralyze which is really awesome.

 

[Lazyboy0337]

Just like in gen 5, jirachi could also put in some work on rain teams, which have been rising in popularity due to politoed and mega swampert. Jirachi could run a set like body slam | thunder | u-turn | wish to support the team, and thunder has 100% accuracy in rain and a 60% chance to paralyze which is really awesome.

Any reason for both Thunder and Body Slam? Iron Head would be better as a replacment to either of these for the STAB+Paraflinch. Thunder hurts bulky waters that would otherwise wall while Body Slam hits and paralyzes ground types, but are both necessary at once?

 

[HolyAvatar]

Any reason for both Thunder and Body Slam? Iron Head would be better as a replacment to either of these for the STAB+Paraflinch. Thunder hurts bulky waters that would otherwise wall while Body Slam hits and paralyzes ground types, but are both necessary at once?

I agree, it's even more true when ground types are easily dealt with on rain teams. You only want para for the hax since speed is hardly a problem when you have swift swimmers.

 

[Numera]

I do agree that Garchomp should stay where it is, for all the reasons you've given. It still cuts holes in teams and for that it should stay exactly where it is.

As for ChaX? This whole discussion is honestly stupid. It is at S rank for now, how about we all chill out and watch how well it performs in this new meta before warranting a drop. New checks is no reason to drop a rank because if you are not using that Pokemon CharX is still a monstrous DD sweeper. As the people before me have stated, you cannot use other Pokemon as the basis of your entire argument. The DD sweeping set as a whole is just as viable as it ever was in the previous meta.
And why wouldn't you run checks to it if a) it's not going to limit your teambuilding that much to do so and b) It's far too dangerous without it?

Also, oml, you really can use other Pokemon in the argument. Saying I can't is like saying I can't rank Blissey lower than Chansey because I'm taking into account that it's outclassed by Chansey, a Pokemon that isn't Blissey. Also, when we're talking about mega Pokemon, there is such thing as Opportunity Cost.
On Stall teams, CharX causes a lot of this: not being able to use Mega Slowbro or Mega Sableye sucks. While there's not much of this on offence, having that set take a heavy blow is bad enough. Also, the DD set might be as good as ever, but now it suffers a lot more competition, particularly with Mega Altaria. It's THESE things that warrant a drop.

In fact while I'm here, I would just like to say that if CharX is deserving of S rank, which may or may not be the case, then Mega Altaria is too, correct? After lurking the past 10 pages it seems like a 50/50 split on whether CharX should drop or not, but nobody mentioned that since CharX actually only lost one set and performs all its others as well as it ever did, if Mega Altaria is just as good does it not warrant an S rank as well? I'm simply asking. I say we keep CharX where it is for now, and if we see some flaws in the coming weeks? Drop it. If we don't and/or just as many people use it? Keep it at S. I'm under the impression that while so many of you are quick to point out both Pokemon's flaws, aren't they performing almost the same role? Just with different offenses and defenses obviously. For that reason, if CharX stays S (which it could) Mega Altaria may need to move up as well. Both Pokemon are great at what they do and honestly no convincing argument has been made because nearly ALL of you haven resorted to; "Yeah well Pokemon X does this set better therefore lol drop it to A+." Maybe CharX should be A+, but nobody has given a single good reason why.
Why are you completely ignoring competition with other DD Sweepers? Saying that a Pokemon should drop due to competition is a GOOD REASON. Why can't you see that? Also, Mega Altaria and Mega Charizard X are actually quite different, making choosing between them harder.

TL;DR: See how the meta plays out before dropping CharX, his DD set, despite competition and walls, still performs wonderfully.
What with all that competition you're ignoring? Please, get to the point. Your argument isn't bringing anything to the table as you just dismiss the main point like it means nothing, which is bullshit.

On a side note, why is Mega Sceptile in A-? I am not for lowering its rank or lifting it, I literally just want to know why it's that high in the first place, and nobody seems to be complaining about it. Mega Sceptile has finally earned some love, I see.
Timid.

That's actually quite interesting and frankly I'm very happy to see a Grass/Dragon type doing so well, thank you for the insight. Oh, before I forget, would you recommend Timid or Modest? I want to try this one out.

...

I'm going to do a replies in bold.

 

[Albacore]

Just gonna point out that XZard is currently A+ and not S rank. It was moved to A+ in the first update (well, right after the fist update after TRC changed his vote)

Jirachi is honestly great, so many teams atm just get destroyed by Gardevoir and Jirachi is an excellent answer to it, and it fits on any playstyle bar I guess HO (even so, the Scarf set could be nice on HO though I'm not really a fan of it). A lot of teams run Heatran as their anwser to Garevoir, but it really isn't seeing as Focus Blast KOs from around 70%. A lot of the time you can pretty easily replace Heatran by Jirachi on those teams and suddenly, you don't lose to Gardevoir anymore, and you cover a lot of the stuff Heatran is used for in the fist place (Lati@s, Clefable, MVenu to a lesser extent). Not saying Jirachi is better than Heatran obviously but Jirachi counters Gardevoir, and Heatran doesn't, and that's pretty big. So if you have a team with Heatran that's weak to Gardevoir definitely consider Jirachi. Same applies to MDiancie to a lesser extent (Earth Power doesn't 2HKO, though if it CMs on the Protect you're kinda in trouble), losing to DD Altaria kinda sucks (though if you get a Body Slam off on it you can always flinch it to death) but it's a very good fairykiller regardless.
Though I personally find Wishtect/Body Slam/Iron Head to be the best and most effective set, Jirachi can easily be tailored to suit your team. Wishtect is mostly good on Stall (a playstyle on which Jirachi thrives). more offensive teams can easily drop Wish since all they need Jirachi to do is force Gardevoir/Latis out a certain number of times so that it takes repeated damage from switching back in which Jirachi can ensure even without Wish. From what I can tell bulky offense and balance prefers the cancerous highly skill-based SubToxic set, but if you just need a rock setter, Stealth Rock/Iron Head/Body Slam/U-Turn does the job really well. And yeah, tons of support options obviously. Don't see it out of place in A.

I'd like to have some discussion on Gliscor, nothing really seems to indicate that it's gotten worse but I literally haven't seen it at all recently, is it still good or are people just overlooking it?

 

[AM]

Just gonna point out that XZard is currently A+ and not S rank. It was moves to A+ in the first update (well, right after the fist update after TRC changed his vote)

Jirachi is honestly great, so many teams atm just get destroyed by Gardevoir and Jirachi is an excellent answer to it, and it fits on any playstyle bar I guess HO (even so, the Scarf set could be nice on HO though I'm not really a fan of it). A lot of teams run Heatran as their anwser to Garevoir, but it really isn't seeing as Focus Blast KOs from around 70%. A lot of the time you can pretty easily replace Heatran by Jirachi on those teams and suddenly, you don't lose to Gardevoir anymore, and you cover a lot of the stuff Heatran is used for in the fist place (Lati@s, Clefable, MVenu to a lesser extent). Not saying Jirachi is better than Heatran obviously but Jirachi counters Gardevoir, and Heatran doesn't, and that's pretty big. So if you have a team with Heatran that's weak to Gardevoir definitely consider Jirachi. Same applies to MDiancie to a lesser extent (Earth Power doesn't 2HKO, though if it CMs on the Protect you're kinda in trouble), losing to DD Altaria kinda sucks (though if you get a Body Slam off on it you can always flinch it to death) but it's a very good fairykiller regardless.
Though I personally find Wishtect/Body Slam/Iron Head to be the best and most effective set, Jirachi can easily be tailored to suit your team. Wishtect is mostly good on Stall (a playstyle on which Jirachi thrives). more offensive teams can easily drop Wish since all they need Jirachi to do is force Gardevoir/Latis out a certain number of times so that it takes repeated damage from switching back in which Jirachi can ensure even without Wish. From what I can tell bulky offense and balance prefers the cancerous highly skill-based SubToxic set, but if you just need a rock setter, Stealth Rock/Iron Head/Body Slam/U-Turn does the job really well. And yeah, tons of support options obviously. Don't see it out of place in A.

I'd like to have some discussion on Gliscor, nothing really seems to indicate that it's gotten worse but I literally haven't seen it at all recently, is it still good or are people just overlooking it?

Gliscor is indeed still good but I have some concerns with its placement as well. One of my issues when using Gliscor is that the increased of M-Sableye, M-Altaria, Greninja, M-Gyarados, and so forth give it an extremely hard time and these aren't exactly obscure threats, they're seen everywhere. Gliscor I find has become a liability against various set up sweepers both from an offensive and defensive standpoint and will never actually threaten them due to the nature of what they provide such as Magic Bounce with M-Sableye, Heal Bell with M-Altaria, Substitute/Taunt M-Gyarados, and so forth. It also comes down to the options of what Gliscor has in that it's a very linear Pokemon from a defensive aspect and as such is usually used over something like Lando-T for specific reasons such as being a status absorber and having reliable recovery. Gliscors best matchup now lies in Balanced builds as stall for the most part doesn't care about Gliscor, and offense has everything Gliscor hates these days from Greninja, Keldeo, HP Ice Thundurus, M-Gardevoir, and so on. It does have the bulk to wall and provide an answer to such things as Bisharp, non Swords Dance Lando-T, Terrakion, and so forth however these aren't exactly the greatest of powerhouses in comparison to all the stuff Gliscor can't handle. All in all I think Gliscor does ok in the meta but it's not exactly anything spectacular when I compare it to something like Jirachi which at this point I believe is more effective in the metagame and the rankings should reflect that.

 

[Flamer]

I just cannot endorse a Mega Sableye movement to S. People have lauded it's defensive abilities and it's necessity for Stall as a Spinblocker, Sweeper and emergengy check to so much but what is does just is not S rank. While it is able to fulfill many roles in one set, it comes across with issues in a typical match that make it struggle to truly excel. At the start of ORAS, when there was little to no preparation for it and teams lacked a teamslot with the prevalence of Mence, Sableye had a great amount of utility and would definitely have been S rank. Nowadays, Sableye really struggles to do everything it wants during a match. While on paper, it appears to have every base covered, Sableye does much less than what it is expected to do, it needs to have a free switch to avoid status, needs to stay unevolved to prevent sweepers and get prioritised healing, but in doing so loses lots of bulk and simply cannot reliably sweep with a fair amount mons that are able to 2hko, even at +1, thanks to piss weak HP stat. While this may sound like nitpicking, these flaws become extremely evident during a match, where the user has to play very cautiously with it, not something I would expect from a Stall mon, in fact, Ive found a large amount of my victories using stall end without me even needing to bring it in.

Don't think from this post that I believe Sableye isn't good, its an amazing mon, but it certainly is not S rank. The fact that it just cannot fulfill the roles you would want reliably means that A+ rank is far more suited to Sableye.

 

[FieryTyrant]

Just gonna point out that XZard is currently A+ and not S rank. It was moves to A+ in the first update (well, right after the fist update after TRC changed his vote)

Jirachi is honestly great, so many teams atm just get destroyed by Gardevoir and Jirachi is an excellent answer to it, and it fits on any playstyle bar I guess HO (even so, the Scarf set could be nice on HO though I'm not really a fan of it). A lot of teams run Heatran as their anwser to Garevoir, but it really isn't seeing as Focus Blast KOs from around 70%. A lot of the time you can pretty easily replace Heatran by Jirachi on those teams and suddenly, you don't lose to Gardevoir anymore, and you cover a lot of the stuff Heatran is used for in the fist place (Lati@s, Clefable, MVenu to a lesser extent). Not saying Jirachi is better than Heatran obviously but Jirachi counters Gardevoir, and Heatran doesn't, and that's pretty big. So if you have a team with Heatran that's weak to Gardevoir definitely consider Jirachi. Same applies to MDiancie to a lesser extent (Earth Power doesn't 2HKO, though if it CMs on the Protect you're kinda in trouble), losing to DD Altaria kinda sucks (though if you get a Body Slam off on it you can always flinch it to death) but it's a very good fairykiller regardless.
Though I personally find Wishtect/Body Slam/Iron Head to be the best and most effective set, Jirachi can easily be tailored to suit your team. Wishtect is mostly good on Stall (a playstyle on which Jirachi thrives). more offensive teams can easily drop Wish since all they need Jirachi to do is force Gardevoir/Latis out a certain number of times so that it takes repeated damage from switching back in which Jirachi can ensure even without Wish. From what I can tell bulky offense and balance prefers the cancerous highly skill-based SubToxic set, but if you just need a rock setter, Stealth Rock/Iron Head/Body Slam/U-Turn does the job really well. And yeah, tons of support options obviously. Don't see it out of place in A.

I'd like to have some discussion on Gliscor, nothing really seems to indicate that it's gotten worse but I literally haven't seen it at all recently, is it still good or are people just overlooking it?

I want you to reread what was said.
That was until Salamence was banned was it not? Either way, I think i has the merits of both an A+ and an S rank Pokémon. If it is A+, I definitely think it is at the top. Gliscor seems to work similarly to the way it did in XY, I've seen a few here and there.

Slowbro is really, REALLY annoying, but not on the level on unmanageable. It has a mediocre typing and can be beaten with a Taunt user or a phasing move. It can be a real threat if you let it set up, and it does get a lot of free turns, but a there are things that stop it.
That being said, if you don't have a Taunt or Whirlwind / Roar user on your team, you're pretty much screwed. It's so irritating when you end up being swept by it. It has stellar bulk and it's pretty much the face of stall other than M-Sableye. There are things that can stop a sweep, but these Pokemon are far and in between, and not every team is going to run them.
I think just Mega Slowbro's defensive presence alone is worthy of S rank, or maybe even further.

Bulky attacking types like a +1 or even +2 Megados can do serious work to it. But yeah MegaBro is definitely A+ at the least.