ORAS - post-Greninja - Metagame Discussion

[Noveliss]

My third Suspect would be Thundurus-I.
I personally feel like this thing should have been banned long ago. But with Greninja gone, that's one less thing that can outspeed and OHKO this fucker. With the moveset of Prankster Thunder Wave, Thunderbolt, HP Ice, and Superpower, Thundurus can either KO or cripple a very large portion of the metagame.

The issue I and probably a few others have with suspecting Thundurus at this time and in this state of the metagame is that doing so is pointless and frankly, quite silly. I don't feel like it's the 'meta defining' threat it was mid-XY, and this is mostly because it currently has trouble fitting on to teams nowadays, as HO isn't the dominant or common playstyle it was. This on top of the fact that Thunder Wave has sort of been less useful (it's still useful, mind you) because of the declining of the playstyle it played with and against, which is again, Hyper Offense. And if anything, Greninja's presence helped it more than it really hurt it, because that means just another thing to troll wave on.

So basically, Thundy is still good but not that good anymore.

 

[Kurona]

If I remember correctly, the community was nearly split even concerning the fate of the Master Sword, and actually, as mentioned, there are new threats to keep him in check. Lopunny certainly isnt a counter, but (and this could sound like another prediction argument, but it goes both ways) if you play it right, Lop can definitely check Aegis, and Sableye dont take no crap from the swordmon at all. The meta HAS changed. Certainly enough to justify retesting it at least.

Gene on the other hand is just stupid powerful. I dont know why it was unbanned in the first place.

Lopunny is incredible shaky at best, and Sableye cannot do anything to specially offensive sets, leaving the best new 'counters' as Camerupt and Swampert. The big problem here is that I do not consider in the slightest two more Pokémon that can beat a broken mon to allow the broken mon back in the tier. Hell, on that note, doesn't Swampert beat Blaziken? Let's retest Blaziken then, why not.
In addition what makes this argument even sillier to me is that it seems to be forgotten these are new Megas that 'counter' it. This means you would be forced to run these Megas and not be able to dedicate your mega slot towards anything else. This sort of thing really annoys me when people bring up Megas as counters for reasons something isn't broken; at the point I absolutely must run a certain Mega to beat a Pokémon, that doesn't sound like anything indicating a healthy metagame to me.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

Why don't we just retest mKanga and mLuke? Just to see how they do now?

Because we already know the outcome.
It's not theorymonning if we've already witnessed it ourselves. As many of us have stated, nothing new was added to put Aegi in its place, therefore, nothing will change.

Honestly, I think this is pretty unfair. No one is advocating we bring back something as broken as MegaKhan or MegaLuke, and it's not right to blow the argument that far out of proportion and attack it. While I don't miss Aegislash nor do I think that it should come back, I wouldn't mind retesting him because it was such a weird suspect. If anything, if it is tested again, a second suspect test will remove any notion of its banning being controversial. Don't forget that after we suspected Aegislash, we had to establish a new rule stating that you couldn't change your vote because so many votes suddenly changed from no ban to ban (if I recall correctly).

However, I think we should take a lesson from the lower tiers and wait until all suspects that would remove an element from OU are clearly finished before we consider retesting anything in Ubers. This will reduce the strength of the broken checking broken argument and let us test the suspects in what would more or less be a vacuum. This isn't to say that "broken checking broken" is in any way valid, but it's nice to kill the argument ahead of time.

One thing that I wanted to mention is that a lot of posts seem to think that suspect testing = banning and have been presenting arguments that I think should be saved until the actual test. I honestly don't think either Mega Metagross or Mega Sableye are straight-up broken (though I might need to play more) but I fully support a suspect test them because a suspect test is an effective (albeit time-consuming) way to establish that something isn't broken, and in their case it's especially useful since they are the tier's most clear-cut power houses. Once Mega Metagross and Mega Sableye have gone through formal suspect tests, it'll help to deter arguments that they should be banned (assuming they aren't banned during the test).

Wait. Genesect was unbanned? I was not aware of this.

I think he was referring to the transition from BW to XY, where it was legal until it was banned alongside Lucarionite.

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

I think he was referring to the transition from BW to XY, where it was legal until it was banned alongside Lucarionite.

thanks, shoulda been more clear.

Lopunny is incredible shaky at best, and Sableye cannot do anything to specially offensive sets, leaving the best new 'counters' as Camerupt and Swampert. The big problem here is that I do not consider in the slightest two more Pokémon that can beat a broken mon to allow the broken mon back in the tier. Hell, on that note, doesn't Swampert beat Blaziken? Let's retest Blaziken then, why not.
In addition what makes this argument even sillier to me is that it seems to be forgotten these are new Megas that 'counter' it. This means you would be forced to run these Megas and not be able to dedicate your mega slot towards anything else. This sort of thing really annoys me when people bring up Megas as counters for reasons something isn't broken; at the point I absolutely must run a certain Mega to beat a Pokémon, that doesn't sound like anything indicating a healthy metagame to me.

lol, Sableye can do plenty against specially offensive sets- i have no idea what youre talking about

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye: 94-112 (30.9 - 36.8%) -- 74.7% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 264-312 (81.4 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And youre right, just two mons that can stop it isnt nearly enough argument. I was just listing two off the top of my head.

 

[Noveliss]

Just a small reminder but both Specially Defensive and Calm Mind Mega Sableye can't switch in to the ever so godly speedy LO or Fast SD Aegislash warning, potentially biased calcs coming thluu:

Speedy LO Vs PDef M-Sableye:

252 SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sableye: 168-199 (55.2 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Speedy LO Vs. SDef M-Sableye:

4 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Sableye: 165-195 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Fast SD Vs. PDef Sableye:

252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 147-173 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 291-343 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Fast SD Vs. SDef M-Sableye:

252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Sableye: 195-230 (64.1 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Sableye: 389-458 (127.9 - 150.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

!

Yeah, Sableye can only come in on a double switch or after something dies or w/e, but when it does get in, Foul Play/Shadow Ball do a ton. I' d not say it's a full switch in though.

This isn't going to change that I'm all for an Aegislash/Genesect retest. I mean, it makes sense to take another look at close bans like these, right?

Edit: And some of the comparisons here are completely unfair and really exaggerative. (Blaziken? Mega Kangaskhan? Mega Lucario? Really? Come on now guys -.-)

Edit #2: Yeah let's just go through all the other 'issues' first and foremost.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Honestly, I think this is pretty unfair. No one is advocating we bring back something as broken as MegaKhan or MegaLuke, and it's not right to blow the argument that far out of proportion and attack it. While I don't miss Aegislash nor do I think that it should come back, I wouldn't mind retesting him because it was such a weird suspect. If anything, if it is tested again, a second suspect test will remove any notion of its banning being controversial. Don't forget that after we suspected Aegislash, we had to establish a new rule stating that you couldn't change your vote because so many votes suddenly changed from no ban to ban (if I recall correctly).

It was an exaggeration, but it still further supports my point. As I've stated, nothing was added to keep Aegi in check, nothing. mLop is hardly a check since it just adds on to the 50/50s everyone loves to bring up. So, even the "answers" it has, aren't answers in many instances. Yea, the vote was close, but so were a few others, and I don't believe we should retest it for that alone. If we retest anything, we should retest it because there have been new things to put it in its place, leaving way to see how it does in the met with those new Pokemon to put it in its place. That does not apply to Aegislash.

I'm just not one for retesting things for no reason other than "it was a close vote". Nothing has been brought for a retest other than. . . Well, mLop checks it if it gets past the 50/50s. Though, it still, even on paper, looks like it'll be a huge problem for many of the huge threats (but let's not resort to broken beats broken).

 

[Sun King]

It was an exaggeration, but it still further supports my point. As I've stated, nothing was added to keep Aegi in check, nothing. mLop is hardly a check since it just adds on to the 50/50s everyone loves to bring up. So, even the "answers" it has, aren't answers in many instances. Yea, the vote was close, but so were a few others, and I don't believe we should retest it for that alone. If we retest anything, we should retest it because there have been new things to put it in its place, leaving way to see how it does in the met with those new Pokemon to put it in its place. That does not apply to Aegislash.

I'm just not one for retesting things for no reason other than "it was a close vote". Nothing has been brought for a retest other than. . . Well, mLop checks it if it gets past the 50/50s. Though, it still, even on paper, looks like it'll be a huge problem for many of the huge threats (but let's not resort to broken beats broken).

Exaggeration doesn't make you more right. It makes your argument more dramatic. Buddy, nobody's saying we should retest it because it was a close vote. We're saying we should retest it because it was weird how things went down. A sizable portion of the community did not want Aegislash banned because we did not find it broken. If--as you have been harping about--nothing has changed since the ban, then we are fairly going to assume that it is still not broken. Honestly, Aegislash was tested in a broken af metagame, so I want to retest it in a balanced one to see what would happen. If it warps a balanced metagame to an undesirable state, then we keep it in Ubers. It's as simple as that.

Here's my question to everyone that so emphatically opposes a retests: What's it to you? Why are you so against retesting something if our metagame is fine/only has minor kinks to work out. It's not like any new additions are going to come and rock OU. We've got nothing but time, so why not make the most of it?

 

[AM]

Exaggeration doesn't make you more right. It makes your argument more dramatic. Buddy, nobody's saying we should retest it because it was a close vote. We're saying we should retest it because it was weird how things went down. A sizable portion of the community did not want Aegislash banned because we did not find it broken. If--as you have been harping about--nothing has changed since the ban, then we are fairly going to assume that it is still not broken. Honestly, Aegislash was tested in a broken af metagame, so I want to retest it in a balanced one to see what would happen. If it warps a balanced metagame to an undesirable state, then we keep it in Ubers. It's as simple as that.

Here's my question to everyone that so emphatically opposes a retests: What's it to you? Why are you so against retesting something if our metagame is fine/only has minor kinks to work out. It's not like any new additions are going to come and rock OU. We've got nothing but time, so why not make the most of it?

Because the idea of a metagame being fine is a very subjective trait at this point in time. You've already seen through numerous posts what individuals are concerned with. Bringing back one strong element to check other strong elements in what people are considering right now a currently undesirable meta-game shouldn't be the way it's done. I personally think Aegislash creates an entirely different meta-game that doesn't provide anything beneficial however if a retest should happen, it should be after these other concerns that have been brought up have been addressed first.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Exaggeration doesn't make you more right. It makes your argument more dramatic. Buddy, nobody's saying we should retest it because it was a close vote. We're saying we should retest it because it was weird how things went down. A sizable portion of the community did not want Aegislash banned because we did not find it broken. If--as you have been harping about--nothing has changed since the ban, then we are fairly going to assume that it is still not broken. Honestly, Aegislash was tested in a broken af metagame, so I want to retest it in a balanced one to see what would happen. If it warps a balanced metagame to an undesirable state, then we keep it in Ubers. It's as simple as that.

Here's my question to everyone that so emphatically opposes a retests: What's it to you? Why are you so against retesting something if our metagame is fine/only has minor kinks to work out. It's not like any new additions are going to come and rock OU. We've got nothing but time, so why not make the most of it?

Something doesn't have to be "broken" to be banned "buddy". Aegi was not necessarily "broken", however it was centralizing as all shit. Which is a MAJOR factor in a ban.

The reason I'm against retesting it has been stated, I'm not one for going back, just to see it play out the same way. We can retest it, I just feel it's a waste of time, since from my point of view the outcome will be the same.

EDIT: I agree with AM that we should filter through the other mons, before we ever get around to even thinking of retesting Aegi.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

I am well aware that no good stall team gets 6-0'd by stallbreaker goth, which is why I spent so little time discussing that possibility.

If trapping and crippling/killing a single mon wins the game, then either the enemy team was poorly prepared for your sweeper (in which case we don't care), the sweeper being used is overpowered (in which case ban the sweeper), or Goth is overpowered (in which case ban Goth).

So consider very carefully this: Are mons like Mega Dancie and Zard-X overpowered? If yes, you should be advocating for their ban. If not, then we should seriously consider suspecting Gothitelle.

At the time of writing, I believe that there are still overpowered sweepers in OU (yes I consider Baton Passers to be sweepers, they function very similarly to your typical booster), and I believe that they should go before Goth, Wobb, or Shadow Tag in general.

Take Zard-Y it is an extremely powerful wall breaker, but has a few counters in Lati@s, chansey, and MegaAltaria. Also it's slow speed makes it easy to check. In addition its SR weakness also hinders it. I don't believe it to be broken and believe most good players would agree. Yet if gothitelle removes Chansey most stall teams have no answer to Zard Y. Sure a stall team may have a Victini, Heatran or Tornadus-t as a back up counter, but just because a stall team doesn't have a secondary counter doesn't make it bad team. Most times chansey can handle most special attackers just find. Gothitelle just removes key stall mons with ease where non broken mons can just run through stall.
Long story short Gothitelle and possibly its whole family are broken.

BTW also agree baton pass scolipede and geopass are broken. Yet they are less common and therefore less of a prob then goth.

 

[Aquaslash]

The reason I'm against retesting it has been stated, I'm not one for going back, just to see it play out the same way. We can retest it, I just feel it's a waste of time, since from my point of view the outcome will be the same.

To be fair, it's not like we're really doing anything with that time. A lot of people feel that the meta is stable and that nothing is banworthy. What else is there to possibly do other than revisit some of the more closer suspects? Aegis was booted by one vote, and Genesect by three. At least if you retest, and they both stay banned by landslide, at least then there's no doubt that they'd be broken.

EDIT: Oh yeah, that last point is another thing. If they stay banned, literally nothing happens, so there's really nothing to lose, but time, which we have lots of.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

To be fair, it's not like we're really doing anything with that time. A lot of people feel that the meta is stable and that nothing is banworthy. What else is there to possibly do other than revisit some of the more closer suspects? Aegis was booted by one vote, and Genesect by three. At least if you retest, and they both stay banned by landslide, at least then there's no doubt that they'd be broken.

EDIT: Oh yeah, that last point is another thing. If they stay banned, literally nothing happens, so there's really nothing to lose, but time, which we have lots of.

Have you read through this thread? Like, at all? There are plenty of people proposing things should be suspected. Things that should have been suspected a long time ago. As I said, if we do retest things, it should be well after we have suspected the things that need it, which won't be for a while, and who knows what may arise by then. So, saying we have plenty of time, is up in the air.

 

[Aquaslash]

Have you read through this thread? Like, at all? There are plenty of people proposing things should be suspected. Things that should have been suspected a long time ago. As I said, if we do retest things, it should be well after we have suspected the things that need it, which won't be for a while, and who knows what may arise by then. So, saying we have plenty of time, is up in the air.

There are also plenty of people just fine with the state of things now, IE, nothing is as pressing as Greninja is that everyone is going "omg banbanban". At the worst, there's until Hoopa hit's the field which will probably be summer with the movie, and there'll probably a new game in the fall. Considering suspects are about a fortnight a piece, there's plenty of time to test whatever, and let the meta stabilize before the new game hits. I don't think Hoopa is going to have that big of an affect on the meta by itself.

 

[Mr. Goodra]

If people are that concerned about Gross and Sableye, then it makes sense that they're tested first. Reaching community conclusions about the pair of them will lead to more objective decisions when Aegi is re-suspected, if the community chooses to do so.

I feel there's a lot of hyperbole surrounding Mega Metagross though. I've read a couple of arguments stating that the main answers to it are defensive, but what do you honestly expect? Responses to a lot of mons in this metagame are defensive because there's so much power in general that some bulk is required if you want to switch in and still come out on top. This is nothing new and is a fundamental reason why HO is reliant on gaining and maintaining momentum; it is not a playstyle that has switch ins for things, it's a playstyle that relies on tactical sacks. We can theorymon all we want about Metagross getting in for free, predicting a switch and getting a 2 hit KO on something with only moderate bulk, but power creep has been a thing in Pokemon for years and all Metagross does is highlight this. I guess I'm just not seeing where he goes above and beyond.

His typing leaves a lot to be desired thanks to common attacking types in the metagame, his pre-evolution speed is poor, his STABS don't have the greatest coverage so you can't just mindlessly spam to win with him, and if you do choose to go for an agility set you gain more counters/checks than you lose in exchange for less revenging potential. It seems a fair trade off to me. It's a tough mon to take down with a brilliant stat distribution that reminds me of gen 4 Garchomp, however unlike gen 4 there's a ton of things running around now with absurd strength that means Mega Metagross has to be played perfectly to be as threatening as some of these posts are stating.

I agree with a suspect, if only to put this issue to rest, but people saying it's clear this thing needs to go aren't convincing me.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

There are also plenty of people just fine with the state of things now, IE, nothing is as pressing as Greninja is that everyone is going "omg banbanban". At the worst, there's until Hoopa hit's the field which will probably be summer with the movie, and there'll probably a new game in the fall. Considering suspects are about a fortnight a piece, there's plenty of time to test whatever, and let the meta stabilize before the new game hits. I don't think Hoopa is going to have that big of an affect on the meta by itself.

It doesn't have to be as obscene as Greninja to be suspected. Saying that there is nothing as pressing as Ninja is true, but it doesn't remove the fact that MegaGross and Mega Sableye are giant thorns in the side of the meta. We need to decide what to do with them before we go on reintroducing things we've already made decisions on. I'm not saying don't retest it (though I don't agree with it), I'm saying we have things to worry about in the current state, so we need to deal with them first.

No. If poeple think Aegislash need to be rested now, it's because it could be interesting to see Aegislash in the current metagame. Unbans should happen before bans.

First off, no.
Second, that's counter productive in the worst way possible. We need to worry about what is on our plate NOW, and worry about other things later.

 

[Aquaslash]

We need to decide what to do with them before we go on reintroducing things we've already made decisions on.

I get the point you're making, but I'd be wary about listing Aegis as something that's "definitely broken" given the shakiness of that whole suspect.

 

[Sochlo]

What actually has changed so much that makes people think Genesect and freaking Aegislash of all things is suddenly not pants shittingly retarded?

I'll just talk about Aegi, because I honestly think it's the worse of the two. The amount of new things that actually do well vs Aegi: Mega Sableye, Mega Sharpedo, the extremely OU relevant Camerupt and Steelix, the Rain-exclusive Swampert, and Pidgeot sort of. The amount of new things that make Aegislash BETTER: Megagross, Megalop (how the fuck is this a check, it has to win several mindgames to do anything and outright loses to some sets), Mega Diancie, Mega Altaria, (unboosted) Mega Gallade, Mega Sceptile, Mega Beedrill, Serperior.

Before you start preaching about keeping Megagross in check, 1) that's horrible, we actively discourage keeping broken shit to check broken shit, there has never been a "necessary evil" in tiering. 2) Just suspect fucking Megagross first???

The last time Aegislash was OU it completely warped the metagame around itself. If restricting teambuilding is one of the reasons Greninja got banned then Aegislash should never see the light of day again, never has there been a Pokemon more restrictive of teambuilding than Aegislash. I'm not too keen on seeing most Psychic/Fairy/Fighting type go extinct AGAIN due to this thing being on like 40% of teams, because that's something that has happened and will happen again because as I and many others have said, nothing has changed that much for Aegislash. Some people liked the metagame being so mechanical because of Aegi, but honestly that was the worst fucking period of any gen I have ever had the displeasure of experiencing.

As for the vote being close and "controversial", alright, that's a valid point and if it were to be retested it would be because of that reason, not because the metagame is now somehow equipped to handle it because that's bullshit.


I also agree that any retests should take place AFTER we have suspected the potentially unhealthy things atm, one thing at a time please.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I get the point you're making, but I'd be wary about listing Aegis as something that's "definitely broken" given the shakiness of that whole suspect.

I personally never listed Aegi as "definitely broken", however it is "definitely one of the most centralizing Pokemon to ever hit OU". Which is a HUGE part of why it was booted. I'm willing to bet it would likely be the reason for it to stay as such if we were to ever retest it.

 

[Creator of Chaos]

Yes I posted earlier but I figured I would quip into the When to retest something debate. I think by now it should be clear to anyone that Aegis, genesect, mawile or anything else that may or may not get a retest should wait till the deck is clear and we have a relativly balanced where these pokemon can accurately be assessed. By that I mean Sableye and metagross at the very least should be tested first and have there fate decided and possibly Baton pass and Shadow tag to if there still issues after we've looked at those 2 pokemon (Tho I dont think this S-Tag is broken). Only once these have happened should we start retesting anything.

Last thing we need is to bring back aegis while metagross and Sableye is still legal and have a warped scenerio of broken checking broken which is not healthy for anyone. So unless you want skewed results please stop asking for retests before we have looked at 2-4 potentially broken things that currently grace our game. Look I am for retesting stuff especially aegis and maw but only once the appropriate time arrives

 

[Cloud_Nine987]

I still don't know why some are bent on brining Aegislash back. What will it bring to the table that OU doesn't already have? It's unclear to me what benefit this holds. First, OU usually has this pattern of one, two, or three non-mega Pokemon that are very common on teams and are sort of like glue. In our case right now, it's something like Keldeo (a great offensive mon that can hit on the physical and special side of the spectrum), Ferrothorn (great on def...actually, great on pretty much any team with the right support), and of course Landorus-T, which you can slap onto just about anything and make it work due to its astounding versatility. What made Aegislash a step above these? Well, as you may have guessed or already knew, it was a bunch of stuff. It had great typing and just the movepool to do it. But what really made it stand out was King's Shield. Without King's Shield, Aegislash is just a frail, slow Pokemon. Think of Greninja and Protean. We could've just banned Protean. But consider this - without King's Shield and Protean, respectively, there's no reason to use Aegislash or Greninja, in theory. The council could've just banned King's Shield. The council could've just banned Protean. But it was the entire mon that was considered broken, so that's not an option as some people here were saying. At least, that's my opinion.

Despite King's Shield making Aegislash really stand out, it's something else entirely that I think was the major driving decision. It shifted the metagame. If Aegislash came back OU will be completely shuffled. Mega Altaria will always run Earthquake, Mega Diancie will likely run more Sp. Attack investment than Attack, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Heracross, Starmie, and Tentacruel will go down in usage, and as a result of the latter two, Defog will be used much more than Rapid Spin. And you know what the rise of Defog means? Bisharp! It'll skyrocket because it loves to take a Defog to the face and it can take on Aegislash...bar Sacred Sword variants. And it really doesn't have any great new counters, because Mega Lopunny will hate switching on a Sacred Sword, and it'll of course crash and burn if it misses HJK thanks to King's Shield. Aegislash can muscle through its counters...or, well, do the opposite of muscling through its counters just by using King's Shield.

 

[celes]

M-Sab is a pretty interesting case since it's undeniably one of the most restrictive mons to teambuilding rn, but because of that it's so overprepared for (similarly to M-Venu mid-XY when Psychic on Thund & Lando-I, HP Flying Specs Keld & Thund, and Ice Fang on M-Gyara were standard just to beat it).

Sub CM Keld, Sub/Taunt DD M-Gyara, Specs Sylv, NP Thund, SD Gliscor, Poison Heal Breloom, CM Lando-I, TG RD Manaphy, Lum SD Chomp, EP Lando-T, Skill Swap Azelf, Skill Swap M-Gallade, SpDef Mold Breaker Exca, SD Talon, Acid Spray Tentacruel and more have either been created or have become more common largely in an effort to beat or exploit M-Sab and the playstyle usually surrounding it.

M-Sab being the face of stall just means that people began preparing for it so thoroughly that it's not as effective as what it could be (though it still is pretty damn good). Since it's so overprepared for, I think it's too early to say we should suspect it since people are usually packing more than enough answers to it on their team.

Not going to touch on Megagross since it's stats, movepool, and ability speak volumes on their own, but in terms of regular metagame trends, fast mons like Torn-T, Starmie, and Raikou are pretty godly rn. And Gengar just IS God since people only pack soft checks or answers to it that can get pressured by other threats. CM Clef + LO 3 Atks Gengar/ Wisp Hex Gengar is pretty fucking amazing atm.

LO Diggersby 2HKOs the entire metagame barring M-Slowbro, and forgoing SD for Fire Punch is pretty cool since you minimize Iron Barbs damage and 2HKO Skarm & Gengar switchins. CB Azu is a pretty amazing stall breaker which i think is better than BD atm since people are packing more water resists to take +6 Jets, as well as Unaware Clef. With CB, Azu just says fuck it 2HKOs practically all of its switch-ins. Mew isn't as solid as it was in XY, but people definitely don't pay too much attention to it while building, so it shits on a lot of balance and offense teams pretty easily. It's really hard to break if played conservatively.

I think stat passing is lame af, and Nasty Pass Celebi is getting more usage, but i don't think it's suspect worthy. I've seen GeoPass only once in ORAS, so i can't speak on it but I'll still go out on a limb and say Scolipede's Speed passing is worse since it can get up Iron Defenses to fend off priority, hold Mental Herb to stop Taunts, and can pass SDs to Lum Berry holders or Ground types to prevent T-Waves, and can pass Subs + Speed pretty easily. Even if it the receiver's Sub gets broken on entry, they still get in for free with usually +2 speed. It's so mindless and easy to pull off, especially since phazing moves and moves like Haze and Perish Song are pretty rare in the current meta.

And no retests because everything banned will def still be broken as hell, Deo-D gets Skill Swap and can get up hazards on M-Sableye, Deo-S outspeeds all common Scarfs (unless Scarf Latios comes back again) and smacks shit with crazy mixed coverage, M-Mawile can still abuse the lack of Fairy switch-ins and beat Heatran with Focus Punch, Genesect gets a free Specs / CB boosts every time it comes in and can benefit from either, etc etc.

Why are people talking about retests right now anyway? There are still some obvious suspects that need to happen, and the meta is still in the midst of change since the Gren ban..

 

[WebBowser]

Take Zard-Y it is an extremely powerful wall breaker, but has a few counters in Lati@s, chansey, and MegaAltaria. Also it's slow speed makes it easy to check. In addition its SR weakness also hinders it. I don't believe it to be broken and believe most good players would agree. Yet if gothitelle removes Chansey most stall teams have no answer to Zard Y. Sure a stall team may have a Victini, Heatran or Tornadus-t as a back up counter, but just because a stall team doesn't have a secondary counter doesn't make it bad team. Most times chansey can handle most special attackers just find. Gothitelle just removes key stall mons with ease where non broken mons can just run through stall.
Long story short Gothitelle and possibly its whole family are broken.

BTW also agree baton pass scolipede and geopass are broken. Yet they are less common and therefore less of a prob then goth.

Alternatively, you can run bulky megazard (which used to be quite powerful on stall) and smack zard-y with dragon claw and stuff.

0 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 175-207 (58.9 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 148+ SpD Mega Charizard X in Sun: 69-82 (19.2 - 22.8%) -- possible 5HKO

nails Goth pretty hard too

0 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Gothitelle: 148-175 (43.1 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Like I said in a previous post, it's not like I've made any concrete decisions or pronouncements on whether or not Goth or Wobb is broken. All I've said is that they work best when paired up with powerful/overpowered sweepers and/or mons with a limited number of checks/counters. Therefore, we need to make sure that any broken sweepers are out of the tier before we can make a good decision on whether or not Goth/Wobb are broken.

Also note that I have not touched the competitiveness argument against Shadow Tag, mostly because I'm not super familiar with it (for better or worse I wasn't paying much attention during the Ubers shadow tag suspect).

 

[Gammafire]

Ironically, Aeislash could have stopped Greninja from being banned. Immune to both low kick and gunk shot, the two moves that made ninja broken. However I do think that retesting Aeislash would definitely be a good idea, and for all doubters, think of Schrödinger's cat, you never know until you open that box.

 

[Cloud_Nine987]

Ironically, Aeislash could have stopped Greninja from being banned. Immune to both low kick and gunk shot, the two moves that made ninja broken. However I do think that retesting Aeislash would definitely be a good idea, and for all doubters, think of Schrödinger's cat, you never know until you open that box.

I think you forgot about Dark Pulse, which Greninja used for stuff like Jirachi and Slowbro.

 

[shellsamurai]

I would say Landorus-T needs a suspect. Although it has a few counters (and I wouldn't really see it as being broken) it is still used ALOT in OU, and is relatively overcentralising in my eyes. The synergy it provides with teams is unparalled and it has quite a few roles, all of which it does really well.