ORAS - post-Greninja - Metagame Discussion

[SketchUp]

I would say Landorus-T needs a suspect. Although it has a few counters (and I wouldn't really see it as being broken) it is still used ALOT in OU, and is relatively overcentralising in my eyes. The synergy it provides with teams is unparalled and it has quite a few roles, all of which it does really well.

The reason Lando-T is used so much is because it is the perfect glue that fits on almost every team bar stall teams. Lando-T does not make the tier broken, but makes it balanced by stopping many stuff with things like Intimidate and U-Turn.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Alternatively, you can run bulky megazard (which used to be quite powerful on stall) and smack zard-y with dragon claw and stuff.

0 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 175-207 (58.9 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 148+ SpD Mega Charizard X in Sun: 69-82 (19.2 - 22.8%) -- possible 5HKO

nails Goth pretty hard too

0 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Gothitelle: 148-175 (43.1 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Like I said in a previous post, it's not like I've made any concrete decisions or pronouncements on whether or not Goth or Wobb is broken. All I've said is that they work best when paired up with powerful/overpowered sweepers and/or mons with a limited number of checks/counters. Therefore, we need to make sure that any broken sweepers are out of the tier before we can make a good decision on whether or not Goth/Wobb are broken.

Also note that I have not touched the competitiveness argument against Shadow Tag, mostly because I'm not super familiar with it (for better or worse I wasn't paying much attention during the Ubers shadow tag suspect).

By running bulky zardX you can't run megaeye tho, which, while not horrible is less than ideal. Also ZardX is ko'd by focus blast.

I do not believe scolipede or smeargle are broken "sweepers" but broken support. If Mega eye was broken it would be broken for its support also not for sweeping capabilities. The only potentially broken sweeper is metagross. Thus I believe Gothitelle should take precedence.

 

[56k]

It'd be nice to bring back Aegislash for a good blanket pivot if the only set was shadow ball subtoxic with leftovers, then it'd be a fine addition.

Problem is aegislash has automatize sets, weakness policy sets, life orb sets, swords dance sets, and moves like head smash, sacred sword, HP ice, pursuit, and iron head. He starts acting like a metagross in that you can't ohko him with much and meanwhile he can hit back really fucking hard. Access to priority, a movepool varied enough to be a serious offensive threat. All the while he's effortlessly walling plenty of stuff out there just by nature of typing and kings shield.

If it it was only the defensive qualities, Aegislash would fit right back in just fine and help with the fairy spam, metagross spam, and wouldn't be TOO centralizing really (more things just need earthquake, oh well, it's not that bad a move for things like chestnaught and pinsir anyway). However the offensive abilities completely imbalance him because all you've done is introduce another poke to the meta that runs completely unpredictable shit that potentially ruins your potential switchins.

I'd be happy to see him drop for a suspect test and I'd immediately start using him as a bulky gardevoir+latios+metagross+pinsir check/counter package deal. It'd be awesome to have a pokemon that can do that on a stall team. But the rest of the player base will just use him for what makes him broken: weakness policy and life orb offensive sets that are too naturally bulky and just survive for too long, so there's really no way he'd be voted back in.

He can get around ALL of his potential checks and counters. He has a move to kill mandibuzz, he has a move to kill landorus, he has a move to kill scizor, he has a move to kill bisharp. He can 2hko all hippowdon and suicune variants meaning it can't switch in. Porygon2 can't switch in on adamant sacred sword. There's literally no 100% safe wall. No bulky water is bulky enough for every set. Keep in mind that advocating dropping aegislash down is advocating a pokemon with 0 counters. Even greninja had counters.

Overall I highly doubt he'd drop permanently but I'd still welcome the chance for a suspect test because the community seems highly divided on it and the interaction between aegis and metagross would be a sight to see. I could be proven wrong anyway, but something that can be both a wallbreaker and a stall staple, versatile and throwing prediction out the window, does not seem balanced overall.

 

[Kurona]

S'ppose I should confirm to society's expectations and write up my thoughts on the seven suspects :U

Suspect Tests:-

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Metagrossite
This is the only Pokémon I think is really worthy of a ban right now. Keep in mind I specifically state only Pokémon; I'll get to that later. Regardless, Mega Metagross is to me a massive limit on teambuilding. As an offence player occasionally dabbling in balance, I find it very hard to fit in a counter that can switch in on any attack Metagross has once, and proceed to beat any possible viable set. The best I've really found is Scarf Victini but that can only switch in once. Of course, there are a ton of Megas that can beat it... but the problem I have with that is that there's a ton of Megas that can beat it. This means I am essentially forced to run one of the Megas that can check or counter Metagross if I want to have a chance against it. That to me does not imply a healthy meta; and to respond to anyone saying that switching in has always been a problem for Offence and Metagross' attacking prowess is nothing new... please stop. The problem isn't just finding something that can take an attack, it's finding something that can get by it's stupidly high defences and/or outspeeding it. This is incredibly difficult for offence to do and implying that we're just complaining about it because of it's OHKO/2HKOing prowess is completely misunderstanding the argument. Definitely Suspect.

Sablenite
I... honestly never had a problem with Mega Sableye and despite it being my favourite Pokémon, I find it incredibly overrated. As an offence player it's easy to take on with common staples like SD Talonflame, Unaware Clefable, Mega Charizard X, Mega Gardevoir, Sylveon, Mega Houndoom and just a ton of other stuff that isn't bothered by the burn and/or set up alongside it or even on it. I then started wondering if it is, ironically, a problem for stall; but after a quick discussion with Aragorn the King last night it appears that really Stall doesn't have much to worry about either as they commonly carry fairies like Clefable or Altaria, or other set-up mon like Mega Slowbro. Other 'mon just aren't bothered by it either. The biggest argument I've seen is that it does 'too much on one slot'... but I don't understand this argument when it's not that hard to beat. Still, there's a ton of people going on about it so while I would never support it getting banned, I think a suspect may be necessary.

Shadow Tag/Shadow Tag & Gothitelle
I honestly have no opinion on this as I have no experience with it other than someone on the lower ladder who used it with perish song lapras lol. I digress; I don't feel I'm in a position to accurately talk about it. However, I would say that should it get suspected, only Gothitelle + Shadow Tag or just Gothitelle in general should get suspected; as Wobbuffet seems to have a positive - albeit minute - effect on the metagame and I cannot for the life of me see Gothorita, Wynaut or Gothita ever being problems. No opinion on suspect.

Cancerpass Baton Pass + Geomancy
When I said Metagrossite was the only Pokémon I wanted suspected, this is what I was referring to. In my honest opinion, Baton Pass + Geomancy is an absolutely cancerous, uncompetitive effect on the metagame when someone can get from 1000-1700 so mindlessly. This and Metagrossite are the only things I think needs banned right now unless I can be swayed on ST/Goth. Please suspect.

Retests:-

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Aegislash
MuhFugginMoose , Sochlo and Cloud_Nine987 have elaborated on this enough to the point I don't think I could add anything significant to what they've said, but I generally agree with all their points and do not want it retested. Do not retest.

Genesect
I'm honestly not understanding the arguments behind this at all. They seem to center around wanting another really good pivot aside from lando-t in the tier but it's stupidly strong so much so that it's even worse than Greninja...? Do not retest.

Deoxys-D
... I dunno. Shrug

 

[WebBowser]

I would say Landorus-T needs a suspect. Although it has a few counters (and I wouldn't really see it as being broken) it is still used ALOT in OU, and is relatively overcentralising in my eyes. The synergy it provides with teams is unparalled and it has quite a few roles, all of which it does really well.

Lando-T is pretty much the definition of "generic goodmon". It's not like you can't swap stuff into it. Stuff like Garchomp, Politoed, Mega Alteria, Opposing Lando-T, and any self respecting wall not named heatran get in for absolutely free. You could not say the same for Aegislash.

It's easy to check/counter, it just happens to check a lot of stuff itself. It's not like Gren where you had to sac half your team just to figure out what it's running. Being able to check stuff is not broken, just look at Mamoswine and Ditto.

 

[Kurona]

Although these things are good to be suspected I feel mega houndoom is a good check. It can easily KO M-Metagross and can stall break M-Sableye with taunt and set up with nasty plot. Not to mention mixed sets. These are all things I feel that can affect the M-Metagross & Sableye problems

I definitely agree on the Houndoom breaking Sableye part; but not on Metagross. You can't bring Houndoom safely in on Metagross unless you've already mega evolved, so it's very shaky.

 

[Acrological]

The reason Lando-T is used so much is because it is the perfect glue that fits on almost every team bar stall teams. Lando-T does not make the tier broken, but makes it balanced by stopping many stuff with things like Intimidate and U-Turn.

I would like to think of him as a basically all purpose physical check. He can out speed while lowering attacks by 1 stage. This makes him useful,but not in any way unstopable or so. Zapdos is a good check in my opinion.

I definitely agree on the Houndoom breaking Sableye part; but not on Metagross. You can't bring Houndoom safely in on Metagross unless you've already mega evolved, so it's very shaky.

True I do agree with that but when he is mega evolved it shouldnt be a problem :)

 

[MrAldo]

Using mega houndoom requires finesse against mega metagross (getting to mega evolve as soon as possible or predict normal metagross coming up on a latios and you double switch your houndoom or something) so it is pretty shaky as stated, and definitely shouldnt be your only answer.

Mega Houndoom does counter M-Sableye unless M-Sableye is at like +4 or something...

Regarding retests, will Aegislash and Genesect were pretty controversial I dont think they will bring anything healthy to this metagame which is reaching a desirable result. Aegislash will just sit there and wall 55% of the metagame and that isnt good.

 

[Tesung]

I think oras ou is a good meta at this point. its not perfect, but it isnt too hard to check most threats and nothing is really centralizing. There are only a couple mons I can see being suspected

Metagross: I don't think this should be banned. It seems inevitable that its gonna get a suspect. But the lack of raw power holds it back, it just doesnt ohko shit. It also has very strong checks like gliscor/lando t/starmie/hippo etc. Gk can beat those but has some opportunity cost. It definitely a threat and a suspect is reasonable, and while it always puts in work in games it rarely dominates.

Sableye: Lol plz no. The fact that this thing is still S is a joke. If u look at spl, it hasn't swept a single game. WHile in theory it sweeps a lot of shit, too much 2hkoes it, and the shit that beats it like zards/altaria/clefable switchin so easily its ridiuculous. It also doesnt do a great job of blocking spin or bouncing, as it loses to rocks tran/clefa and cant really stop exca/tenta from spinning very well. It also gets completely fucked by scald/plume burns. Its amazing on paper but in practice it just doesnt work nearly as well.

Lando I: I can't say its definitely broken, but I think a suspect is worth considering. Look at spl if you need proof, it has put in a ton of work in so many games. It threatens literally everything in the meta that isnt assault vest torn-t. It also has nice bulk, decent speed, rock polish, and works very well with pursuit. You can basically call any team without av torn lando weak, which is just kinda ridiculous.

Those are the only questionable ones in my opinion, with keldeo not being too crazy; its not broken but there is kind of no reason not to use it on offense. I think bp ban is unnecessary (and I really don't want the move banned, it would take away creativity), and I think stag ban is ridiculous even if its cancer. ALso pleasssssee don't drop aegislash, its cancer, its not fun to play against, and it takes away the diversity of the meta. sect is fine but uneccessary

 

[Mencee]

ALso pleasssssee don't drop aegislash, its cancer, its not fun to play against, and it takes away the diversity of the meta. sect is fine but uneccessary

Just because something is not fun to play against isn't a reason to not drop for a retest. We could basically say this to a lot of Pokemon in current OU. I wouldn't mind a retest, not saying it'll pass but it's worth to see if Aegislash has changed from XY meta to ORAS meta. But first I think Mega Metagross and Mega Sableye (though I don't find M-Sab to be broken but w/e) need looked at before we jump to any retests.

 

[MrAldo]

Banning baton pass would be too controversial for its own good. In one hand we have cancerpass and on the other we have plenty of mons that could use this move legitimately like celebi and sylveon to either pass boosts, avoid pursuit trapping in celebi case and not being a momentum killer for sylveon with a choice specs set. Overall, plenty of moves enjoy using baton pass and banning the move will affect its viability a ton. Had this discussion with some people a while ago and it will be a pain to deal with the pros and cons regarding this.

Or we just could get rid of Smeargle...

Mega Metagross and Lando-I are probably the most worthy suspects at the moment, Lando-I if we consider its effectiveness in SPL. Mega Sableye looks like a close suspect test but I feel the metagame has adapted really well to its presence, most mons adapting to it with new adapted sets to deal with it and that isnt necessarily a bad thing. Not like we need to use obscure stuff to deal with it. Of course it is pretty centralizing, certainly suspect worthy but not ban worthy. Mega Metagross is pretty ridiculous though

 

[Kurona]

Banning baton pass would be too controversial for its own good. In one hand we have cancerpass and on the other we have plenty of mons that could use this move legitimately like celebi and sylveon to either pass boosts, avoid pursuit trapping in celebi case and not being a momentum killer for sylveon with a choice specs set. Overall, plenty of moves enjoy using baton pass and banning the move will affect its viability a ton. Had this discussion with some people a while ago and it will be a pain to deal with the pros and cons regarding this.

Or we just could get rid of Smeargle...

Honestly, I feel the best option here would be to ban Geomancy -- I feel it's the real core of the problem in all honesty and Baton Pass would at the very least stop being broken, and it's at no cost to anything unless you for some reason feel possessed to do a sweep with Smeargle. Regardless, I feel this thread is more or less to identify what needs a suspect rather than the form that suspect would take. I'd leave that up to the council.

 

[WebBowser]

Tesung Out of curiosity, what would you say to simply banning Scolipede and Smeargle? I argued for this several pages back and as far as I can tell, no huge controversy sprung from the suggestion(ofc, there's a lot of potential reasons for that). It'll definitely remove the two most powerful passers in the game while at the same time preserving things like BP mega-lop and celebi.

 

[Karxrida]

Fuck banning Geomancy, Smeargle can still do SmashPass and it's a complex ban since it's the only OU legal thing that gets it.

If people seriously want to keep the move around (I personally don't see why we should bother since we've already dealt with it twice; three strikes you're out imo), just ban passing positive stat boosts with it. You keep your DryPass while GeoPass and QuickPass dies.

No I don't care if it kills NastyPass, Celebi/Togekiss are still viable without it.

 

[heritage]

Sableye is not broken. At all. I don't even believe it should be S rank anymore. People are constantly saying that it's the biggest threat in the tier, but in reality, there are so many Pokémon that just shit on it and more. A lot of them being common threats like Char X, SD Talonflame, M-Gardevoir, Sylveon, Clefable, and Manaphy, as well as some less common threats like Houndoom, Volcorona, and Togekiss. There is literally no reason for it to be suspected when there are so many Pokémon in OU that check it or counter it, most being common threats. If you really have issues with it, run one of these Pokémon.

Mega Metagross pursues the bigger issue, as there are practically no switch ins outside of Arcanine. Metagross is starting to have the M-Salamence syndrome where people are trying to use sub par Pokémon just to check it. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad Arcanine finally has a ranking, but it's just there because Metagross exists. There are so few safe switch ins for it.

 

[astroboy]

sorry if this is sloppy but my computers broken so im on mobile

when talking about retesting genesect and aegislash, "the vote was so close and controversial" is a poor argument, as peoples opinions do change over time. many people (like myself) who thought slash wasnt broken at the time, have seen what a negative effect it has on the meta. it doesnt matter how a mon affected the meta, but it matters how it impacts it now.
genesect is basically a free momentum button, and slash is probably the most influential pokemon in ou history.
dont retest slash or gene

on the other hand, im totally for retesting deod (and meta, but im really all for deod) deod is probably the most underwhelming uber atm, and its gotten worse in the transition to oras. i dont really get the argument of "it has skill swap to get past magic bounce", as its sacrificing valuable coverage (i think this was covered before, but basically itd rather have something like twave and taunt so its not total set up fodder), and i think its definitely worth another shot in ou.

i think people still dont get that retesting isnt the same as unbanning. if we retest aegislash, then were not unbanning it, were just seeing how it does in a changed meta

 

[Toljik]

Mega Sableye, Mega Meatgross and Landorus-i strike me as potential suspects.

Mega Sableye simply does too much, it spams burns pre mega with prankster, it blocks spins, it stops hazards outright after the mega and in general is fat as shit with amazing typing. As if that wasn't enough it also has the potential to sweep entire teams with the CM set.

I think that while Mega Sableye is amazing, it's not quite on the level of Aegislash or Deoxys-D as a "support Uber".

Like regular Sableye, Mega Sableye is vulnerable to powerful special attacks, and there's plenty of those in OU. Mega Altaria, both Mega Charizards, Mega Gardevoir, CroPhy, Calm Mind Keldeo and Nasty Plot Thundurus can take on Sableye even after a Calm Mind boost. Unaware Clefable can always 2HKO Sableye even with no Special Attack investment.

On the physical side...Taunt Mega Gyarados and Mega Lopunny can both beat Mega Sableye, but will get burned if they try facing Sableye before it Mega Evolves.

sorry if this is sloppy but my computers broken so im on mobile

when talking about retesting genesect and aegislash, "the vote was so close and controversial" is a poor argument, as peoples opinions do change over time. many people (like myself) who thought slash wasnt broken at the time, have seen what a negative effect it has on the meta. it doesnt matter how a mon affected the meta, but it matters how it impacts it now.
genesect is basically a free momentum button, and slash is probably the most influential pokemon in ou history.
dont retest slash or gene

on the other hand, im totally for retesting deod (and meta, but im really all for deod) deod is probably the most underwhelming uber atm, and its gotten worse in the transition to oras. i dont really get the argument of "it has skill swap to get past magic bounce", as its sacrificing valuable coverage (i think this was covered before, but basically itd rather have something like twave and taunt so its not total set up fodder), and i think its definitely worth another shot in ou.

i think people still dont get that retesting isnt the same as unbanning. if we retest aegislash, then were not unbanning it, were just seeing how it does in a changed meta

I'm still terrified of Deosharp, but maybe with 2 common Magic Bounce users running all over OU, things will change.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Fuck banning Geomancy, Smeargle can still do SmashPass and it's a complex ban since it's the only OU legal thing that gets it.

If people seriously want to keep the move around (I personally don't see why we should bother since we've already dealt with it twice; three strikes you're out imo), just ban passing positive stat boosts with it. You keep your DryPass while GeoPass and QuickPass dies.

No I don't care if it kills NastyPass, Celebi/Togekiss are still viable without it.

Why not just ban Smeargle if that is a problem, that way not only does that remove GeoPass and SmashPass, but it lts Nasty Pass stay

 

[WebBowser]

Fuck banning Geomancy, Smeargle can still do SmashPass and it's a complex ban since it's the only OU legal thing that gets it.

If people seriously want to keep the move around (I personally don't see why we should bother since we've already dealt with it twice; three strikes you're out imo), just ban passing positive stat boosts with it. You keep your DryPass while GeoPass and QuickPass dies.

No I don't care if it kills NastyPass, Celebi/Togekiss are still viable without it.

Sooo let me get this straight, you are against the "complex ban" of geomancy and replace it with... yet another complex ban?

Sorry, but that's not a boat I want to jump on. If geopass is broken, ban Smeargle. If Scolipede's ID pass shenanigans are broken, ban Scolipede. Simple as that.

*edit*

ninjask'd

 

[Karxrida]

Sooo let me get this straight, you are against the "complex ban" of geomancy and replace it with... yet another complex ban?

Sorry, but that's not a boat I want to jump on. If geopass is broken, ban Smeargle. If Scolipede's ID pass shenanigans are broken, ban Scolipede. Simple as that.

*edit*

ninjask'd

Yes and no; I'd rather have the move banned flat-out since it's clearly an issue. A Geomancy ban doesn't do anything about SmashPass (which still works with the same team strategy) or Scolipede but for some reason people don't seem to want Scolipede or Smeargle tested, and I only brought it up since someone else proposed it in that other thread. I just want something done about it at this point that actually sticks.

 

[Ary]

Sableye is not broken. At all. I don't even believe it should be S rank anymore. People are constantly saying that it's the biggest threat in the tier, but in reality, there are so many Pokémon that just shit on it and more. A lot of them being common threats like Char X, SD Talonflame, M-Gardevoir, Sylveon, Clefable, and Manaphy, as well as some less common threats like Houndoom, Volcorona, and Togekiss. There is literally no reason for it to be suspected when there are so many Pokémon in OU that check it or counter it, most being common threats. If you really have issues with it, run one of these Pokémon.

Mega Metagross pursues the bigger issue, as there are practically no switch ins outside of Arcanine. Metagross is starting to have the M-Salamence syndrome where people are trying to use sub par Pokémon just to check it. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad Arcanine finally has a ranking, but it's just there because Metagross exists. There are so few safe switch ins for it.

I'm confused as to why you believe people are using pokemon that have no other function except as a gross check/counter. There's quite a few offensive checks and defensive mons that can handle it(with varying degrees of reliability). ScarfLand,Bisharp,The Zards,Heatran,excadrill,gengar,gyara,mew,rotom-w,sciz,skarm,slowbro,msable.

 

[Frogifier]

Yes and no; I'd rather have the move banned flat-out since it's clearly an issue. A Geomancy ban doesn't do anything about SmashPass (which still works with the same team strategy) or Scolipede but for some reason people don't seem to want Scolipede or Smeargle tested, and I only brought it up since someone else proposed it in that other thread. I just want something done about it at this point that actually sticks.

People don't want scolipede and smeargle tested because they serve other purposes besides their baton passing sets.
Scolipede can serve as a late game cleaner and fairy check with its Offensive LO set. That set definitely has some issues, and is definitely not metagame defining, but it is still there and reasonably effective.
Idk about smeargle though, hazard setting sets are stupid, i mean i guess dark void/spore is good but hazard stacking is still ass.

 

[hey yal]

I'm confused as to why you believe people are using pokemon that have no other function except as a gross check/counter. There's quite a few offensive checks and defensive mons that can handle it(with varying degrees of reliability) : ScarfLand,Bisharp,The Zards,Heatran,excadrill,gengar,gyara,mew,rotom-w,sciz,skarm,slowbro,msable.

Recreant clearly said Megagross has no switchins, not has no checks/counters. For example most of the things you mentioned die to specific coverage moves.
Gengar, Zard Y and Rotom-W die to or take hefty damage from Zen Headbutt, Earthquake hits zard x, tran and non-balloon exca etc. Even bro gets 2hko'd by grass knot. Regardless, I think Meta is worthy of a suspect but i'm truly on the fence if it should be banned or not.

 

[tigers jaw]

People don't want scolipede and smeargle tested because they serve other purposes besides their baton passing sets.
Scolipede can serve as a late game cleaner and fairy check with its Offensive LO set. That set definitely has some issues, and is definitely not metagame defining, but it is still there and reasonably effective.
Idk about smeargle though, hazard setting sets are stupid, i mean i guess dark void/spore is good but hazard stacking is still ass.

except for the part where nobody uses offensive scoli and lead smeargle is absolutely terrible and never used outside of elo hell
you can argue all you want about them serving different roles but at the end of the day, they are really only used for bp

 

[Ary]

Recreant clearly said Megagross has no switchins, not has no checks/counters. For example most of the things you mentioned die to specific coverage moves.
Gengar, Zard Y and Rotom-W die to or take hefty damage from Zen Headbutt, Earthquake hits zard x, tran and non-balloon exca etc. Even bro gets 2hko'd by grass knot. Regardless, I think Meta is worthy of a suspect but i'm truly on the fence if it should be banned or not.

Mega Metagross pursues the bigger issue, as there are practically no switch ins outside of Arcanine. Metagross is starting to have the M-Salamence syndrome where people are trying to use sub par Pokémon just to check it. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad Arcanine finally has a ranking, but it's just there because Metagross exists. There are so few safe switch ins for it.

These are coverage moves that gross can't afford to run most of the time. If you run eq and knot you have to forego either dual stab or the ability to hit things like lando-t and ferrothorn which are usually more important.