Other OU CCAT - Team Complete (Revisions and Edits Stage)

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The last two slots especially are pretty key (not a pun) since if we do them very separately in a "this is what the team needs, so lets add that" fashion, we can end up getting to a point where we've just added the sixth Pokemon and we're still in a "this is what the team needs, and... now we're stuck" mode, or we'll be left relying on a last glue Pokemon to try and fill all the gaps we haven't already covered, which is a lot of work for a single 'mon to do. It can be done, but not always, as we are all aware :| If it wasn't for the fact that it puts a lot of work on each individual suggester, I'd nearly put forward that we should have the option of suggesting two Pokemon at once for the 5th and 6th slots, to remove some of the pressure on the 6th Pokemon.

Question about the"step 2" of this thread. Are we supposed to end up with a fully functioning team after choosing the 6th 'mon and then we more or less call it finished (and then evaluating its success + fine tuning), with the premise that via the *impressive voice* POWER OF DEMOCRACY we should have a team that is already workable and not in need of big changes, or will we end up having 6 'mons initially selected (Team v.1.0) and then we iteratively make small-to-serious changes to it, INCLUDING changes to the Pokemon species in each slot and/or playstyle, until we have a team that works really well (which is how teambuilding works for individual players)? If it's not the latter, then we sort of have to play the 5th and 6th slots pretty carefully, right? Because we want to get it right first-time without backtracking (and only requiring minor revisions, e.g. EVs, Items, or Move choices).
tl;dr do we expect to get this mostly right first time around, or is everything up for changing later?
 

boltsandbombers

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Alright, the winner of Round 4 is Klefki n-n

Just as before, you are all free to discuss what exactly the team needs next before and during making nominations, although I won't have a separate stage in the process just for discussion.
The way I see it, the only thing /really/ set in stone is Mega Absol, because that is what the team was built around. After the team is completed, its totally cool and suggested to come back with suggestions after play testing, as just using the team is the best way to find its flaws.

With that said, begin the discussion and nominations for Round 5!

Our team so far:
Absol-Mega @ Absolite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Play Rough / Superpower

Dragalge @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Sludge Wave
- Hidden Power Fire
- Focus Blast

Landorus-Therian @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 8 SpD / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Stone Edge

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful / Calm Nature
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
- Play Rough / Foul Play
- Magnet Rise
 
Ok so right now we're totally screwed by mega swampert rain offense. We need something to deal with that.


Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split

Rotom-w can deal with rain offense, while also forming a volt turn core with lando-t. It's slow volt switch can also bring in dragalge or mega absol.
 
Ok so right now we're totally screwed by mega swampert rain offense. We need something to deal with that.

Therefore

I am reserving rotom-w
Uhh was going to suggest ferrothorn to check rain but yours seems way better as a nom. We still need something for mega altaria and lopu and even maybe mega gallade (kinda checked by lando tho). Hazard remover i think maybe starmie is the better choice as exca just adds another groung weakness. Or scizor but thats extra fire weakness and leaves the team weak to charY
 
Ferro actually isn't a really good check to rain since mega swampert can 2HKO with low kick, while if power whip misses ferro is screwed. We already have two decent checks to mixed altaria in klefki and absol, while rotom-w is a decent check to physical variants. Also, we don't scizor as our defogger since this is a spikes stacking team, and that defeats the purpose.
 
Yeah, rain is looking just yukE and no solid Keldeo switch-ins adds poison to the pudding. Nominating what Fourth Inversion nominated and that is the king, Slowking.


Slowking @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 176 Def / 84 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Thunder Wave
- Psyshock / Grass Knot
- Slack Off

Yep, this mon seems like a really good addition to the team, taking on Mega Metagross, M-Lop, rain to an extent if it runs GK, Keldeo, and paralyzing faster threats, be it scarfers or what have you, which lets Dragalge and Absol literally nuke something. Well Dragalge mainly, heh. Unlike Fourth Inversion, I'm not nomming an AV set because I believe the Leftovers recovery help + Thunder Wave works well with the team.

I figured physically defensive would be the most optimal set for this specific Slowking, customizing it to avoid the 2HKO from Lopunny-Mega's return after rocks. Idk, if yall see a better spread, please bring it to the table. Scizor could prove to be troublesome for the team with this addition, however, so there's that. Aaand that's my nom.

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Slowking: 154-183 (39.1 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Slowking: 93-109 (23.6 - 27.7%) -- 10.5% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Slowking: 114-135 (29 - 34.3%) -- 4.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Slowking: 136-162 (34.6 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
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SparksBlade

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ArchPhantom js but why not slowbro?
ye i was thinking as well that we're threatened by keldeo(Dragalge might be able to switch in, but no recovery+he's the offensive mon), and obv rotom and slowbro come to mind., and the recovery that slowbro(/king) possesses is what makes it better than rotom. And besides rain, we're also weak to sand offense bar lando cos nothing else switches in to excadrill in sand. Also Gliscor kind of walls our team cos nothing on our team except Dragalge threatens it. So ye we need something for those+recovery.
I kind of built it on the spot, so pls point out any flaws if you see them
Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 64 SpD / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Giga Drain
- Recover
- Heal Bell / Baton Pass / U-Turn
0 SpA Celebi Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 220-260 (62.1 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
0 Atk Gliscor Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Celebi: 86-104 (21.2 - 25.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Celebi: 174-206 (43 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 176-210 (54.4 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Celebi: 170-200 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Celebi: 124-146 (30.6 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Celebi: 148-175 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
HP Ice is there specifically to threaten Gliscor, and can be removed if our 6th mon checks it.
 
ArchPhantom js but why not slowbro?
ye i was thinking as well that we're threatened by keldeo(Dragalge might be able to switch in, but no recovery+he's the offensive mon), and obv rotom and slowbro come to mind., and the recovery that slowbro(/king) possesses is what makes it better than rotom. And besides rain, we're also weak to sand offense bar lando cos nothing else switches in to excadrill in sand. Also Gliscor kind of walls our team cos nothing on our team except Dragalge threatens it. So ye we need something for those+recovery.
I kind of built it on the spot, so pls point out any flaws if you see them
Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 64 SpD / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Giga Drain
- Recover
- Heal Bell / Baton Pass / U-Turn
0 SpA Celebi Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 220-260 (62.1 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
0 Atk Gliscor Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Celebi: 86-104 (21.2 - 25.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Celebi: 174-206 (43 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 176-210 (54.4 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Celebi: 170-200 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Celebi: 124-146 (30.6 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Celebi: 148-175 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
HP Ice is there specifically to threaten Gliscor, and can be removed if our 6th mon checks it.
Only reason why I chose King over Bro is because it's a better Metagross check, not getting 2hko'd by Grass Knot, which is kinda huge. I kind wanted to fit in a gross + Keldeo + lop check all in one, and that's what Slowking does. (bro can too if you really want but it needs SDef) Someone, nominate Slowbro. Hmm as for Celebi, it could be a nice answer to rain and Keldeo and can t wave the things like our friend Slowking. Gliscor is looking really annoying; you're right about that, so maybe Celebi could work. (Tho SD Knock Off Roost Gliscor might actually setup on and beat Celebi :/)
Uh, Celebi, imo, should outspeed Jolly Bisharp. And Bisharp is also a troublesome fiend for the team. Why do I suddenly feel like crying..
 
Only reason why I chose King over Bro is because it's a better Metagross check, not getting 2hko'd by Grass Knot, which is kinda huge. I kind wanted to fit in a gross + Keldeo + lop check all in one, and that's what Slowking does. (bro can too if you really want but it needs SDef) Someone, nominate Slowbro. Hmm as for Celebi, it could be a nice answer to rain and Keldeo and can t wave the things like our friend Slowking. Gliscor is looking really annoying; you're right about that, so maybe Celebi could work. (Tho SD Knock Off Roost Gliscor might actually setup on and beat Celebi :/)
Uh, Celebi, imo, should outspeed Jolly Bisharp. And Bisharp is also a troublesome fiend for the team. Why do I suddenly feel like crying..
I brought tissues :]
 
I've been going down the OU Viability list from the top and identifying pokemon that give us issues. Although we can paralyse certain Mega Pokemon with Klefki to stop them from sweeping, I'll leave the ones on that our team still has trouble handling even after they've been paralysed.

S Rank: Mega Lopunny
A+ Rank: Belly Drum Azumarill (+6 Aqua Jet OHKOes Klefki), Bisharp, Gengar (no switchins), Keldeo, Landorus (no switchins), Mega Scizor
A Rank: Mega Charizard Y, Mega Diancie (Magic Bounce stops Klefki from paralysing it, so Dragalge has to check it), Ferrothorn (Dragalge can't OHKO it, and even then, it has to lock into a non-STAB move), Gliscor, Mega Manectric
A- Rank: Diggersby, Mamoswine, Politoed (rain in general)
and so on.

Before we nominated Klefki, I would have said that Slowbro or Slowking would have suited our team, but Klefki kind of forces our hand in a different and more offensive direction. Klefki does four main things for our team.

1. Paralyses sweepers
2. Sets up Spikes
3. Trolls some Ground types, particularly Landorus-T
4. Switches into certain pokemon, with its amazing typing, particularly Dragons

1., 3. and 4. are useful, but at present, our team doesn't really abuse 2. Note that Klefki can't do much outside of this, and will likely die in the process of trying to stop Mega Gyarados/Mega Metagross etc., or else will eventually be worn down by strong hits. At present, our only reliable win condition is a Mega Absol sweep, as Klefki and Landorus-T are being used in support roles, and with only Leftovers for recovery, will get worn down over the course of the game, and Specs Dragalge is a pure wallbreaker.

What our team does have are strong matchups against pokemon like Lati@s. Our team is likely to be fairly slow, and as such, we can benefit from additional priority. It's also worth noting that a lot of the pokemon that our team struggles with are fairly frail and/or have a weakness to Water, and our team could do with a Water type.


Azumarill @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Knock Off

This set was previously nominated by ArchPhantom (kind of odd how we're reverse nominating each others' Pokemon). Azumarill covers a lot of our team's weaknesses, and importantly, gives us a strong additional victory condition and another source of priority. In addition to pokemon that die to a +6 Aqua Jet, Azumarill can take on Keldeo, Kingdra in Rain and and +6 Rain boosted Aqua Jet puts a lot of pressure on Rain teams, as you can now pokemon like OHKO Mega Swampert in Rain. Now, our team also has an additional use for Spikes, because calculations like
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 223-264 (74 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO and
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 237-280 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
start to look a whole lot better once some Spikes are set up.
 

SparksBlade

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Fourth Inversion said:
thing is, it is really pressurised by hazards itself, cos it needs to stay at good health to set up, and most of its checks need to be gone. This is more of a late-game scenario, and till then we need to preserve azu so we're forced to play with 5 1/2 mons. Ofc depending on the matchup we might not need to set up azu at all, but in those cases we might miss the AV.
firehusky said:
Also, we don't scizor as our defogger since this is a spikes stacking team, and that defeats the purpose.
this applies to other hazard removers as well(Rapid Spin is a bit unlikely to come on our team), and as you yourself pointed out for klefki
will likely die in the process of trying to stop Mega Gyarados/Mega Metagross etc., or else will eventually be worn down by strong hits.
Since we won't have so many chances to set spikes, we can't afford to get rid of the hazards we set for Azu.
 

Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- Reflect Type

Truth be told all entries so far seem to really be beneficial to our team, Celebi, rotom-w, azumarill, slowking and my above nom all seem to fit well.

Would like to here discussion on why one is better than the other
 
So we've pretty much come to the conclusion that a bulky water is helpful for our team?
I said that 2 rounds ago lol we needed a bulky water to patch ice' water and fire weaknessess all over the team and Azu covers 2/3 absols weaknessess. Im always ignored ;_; tbh BD Azum needs setup, id rather use CB or AV so it doesnt care about being worn down and ccan act as a pseudo glue mon

EDIT : rotom+azum seem like a decent addition to the team imo
 
I'd say add Rotom-W just because it's neutral to Bisharp and though it doesn't check Keldeo too well, it can maintain offensive momentum for the team thanks to Volt Switch. Another reason to add it is because its Rotom-W. A close second would prolly be Azu. Im not voting or anything with this post, I'm just saying a water type would do the team well. :]]]
 
Does Rotom-W (or any of the options at this point) leave us with any gaping weaknesses that can't be patched with a 6th slot? (If that 6th slot is also a scarfer/spinner in Rotom's case.) Right now mostly everything looks good, but if any of the suggestions don't have a positive answer to that question, I'm scratching them off my "maybes" list entirely.

my thought process right now is somewhere along the lines of "Starmie spins, but doesn't do a whole lot else. Rotom-W does everything. Except it doesn't spin." And then I get distracted by the idea of a sentient washing machine doing manic 360s. wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
 

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- Reflect Type

Truth be told all entries so far seem to really be beneficial to our team, Celebi, rotom-w, azumarill, slowking and my above nom all seem to fit well.

Would like to here discussion on why one is better than the other
Going to stop you right there. I have no qualms with Starmie as a pokemon, but reflect type is terrible in this meta. It literally screams for Sub CM Keldeo to setup on it. Sure, we have Dragalge, but as others have said it gets worn down pretty quickly. Psyshock is always the way to go, having a Starmie that loses to Keldeo is awful.
 
The consensus seems to be leaning towards a bulky water or grass type in our 5th slot. If we go down this path, I think we need to ensure that our 6th slot offers some form of alternative victory condition. If Mega Absol falls, or is up against a team with pokemon like Scarfed Landorus-T and Mega Lopunny, then we'll be left with a bulky support/wallbreaking core, but without any sort of priority, reliable recovery or status removal, making us vulnerable to both stall teams + stuff like regenerator cores that can outlast us. Against hyper-offense, it may be difficult to safely mega evolve Mega Absol unless we do so on a Sucker Punch against a Dark-weak pokemon, and we risk being run over by fast hyper-offensive teams, especially the double genie core or Mega Diancie, none of which Klefki can Thunder Wave.
 

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 88 HP / 192 Atk / 4 Def / 224 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Bounce

So nice Keldeo check if it aint packing hp electric, also nice setup sweeper and win con. Sub+bounce+lefties is power. Biggest con is its weak to those damn ass rocks. Posting to have a bigger spectrum of choices but tbh rotom seems like a spot on nom.
 
Just noticed a problem. By packing a bulky water, we make our team really weak to bolt-beam coverage. Especially stuff like mega man, which can easily switch out of mons like dragalge and absol and wait until they're weakened to finish this off. Klefki can't t-wave it either. I'm thinking maybe clefable or sylveon is a good replacement for our bulky water. Clefable acts as a decent check to most electric types, while sylveon can be our cleric.


Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
Calm Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled
- Flamethrower

Takes care of mega man and can acts as a decent wincon.


Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 SpD
Bold Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell

Decent special wall and cleric, acts as a decent check to thund and mega man.
 

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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Time to vote n-n

Rotom-W
Slowking
Celebi
Azumarill
Starmie
Gyarados
Clefable
Sylveon

Most of these Pokemon have a few different sets they can run, so I'm not specifying the set in the voting; just vote for the Pokemon you feel would fit the team best.

Go!
 
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