OU CCAT: Zoroark [See Post #663]

[theBEEZ KNEEZ]

Ninjask


Alright, hear me out on this.

Ninjask is something that no one is ever prepard for. It can just protect/sub until it accumulates enough speed boosts, and then baton pass to Haxorus. If you get lucky, you can even get a swords dance in. It is surprisinlgy easy to pull off, and a +2 Haxorus is something no one wants to face.

Ninjask@Leftovers
Trait: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP/236 Def/ 24 Spe
Impish (+Def, -Spa)

Swords Dance
Protect/Substitute
Baton Pass
Protect/X-Scissor

I like Substitute on this set because it blocks Taunt. I think Ninjask would be a great poke for this team because CCAT is all about trying out new and underused pokes and Ninjask certainly fits the bill.

 

[peng]

Also i suggest you move the 252 evs u have to HP and put them in Speed, since now you are outsped and killed by a bazillion of things you could outspeed and ohko before at +2

Both EV spreads have their merits I guess. Running the slower spread I listed lets you underspeed Skarmory so it can't Roost up safely fearing +2 Superpower; this just gives us another way to weaken Skarm for Haxorus because Zoroark isn't a guaranteed answer to it. HP is also useful for easier Swords Dances. I would have agreed with you about 252 Spd being the better EV Spread a few months ago, but with fast SDef Heatran being pretty popular I'm inclined to push the bulkier spread forward. I'm actually looking through the OU Speed Tiers now and I'm not really seeing anything notable outside of 8 Spd Heatran, Tangrowth and Gorebyss thats really worth throwing in so much speed for.

Jolly 252 Spd Scizor is a completely different story as it gets the jump on SDef Heatran and Timid Magnezone, but you really need Adamant for the power (for example, Jolly misses out on 2HKOs against Landorus and Salamence).

 

[alexwolf]

Both EV spreads have their merits I guess. Running the slower spread I listed lets you underspeed Skarmory so it can't Roost up safely fearing +2 Superpower; this just gives us another way to weaken Skarm for Haxorus because Zoroark isn't a guaranteed answer to it. HP is also useful for easier Swords Dances. I would have agreed with you about 252 Spd being the better EV Spread a few months ago, but with fast SDef Heatran being pretty popular I'm inclined to push the bulkier spread forward. I'm actually looking through the OU Speed Tiers now and I'm not really seeing anything notable outside of 8 Spd Heatran, Tangrowth and Gorebyss thats really worth throwing in so much speed for.

Jolly 252 Spd Scizor is a completely different story as it gets the jump on SDef Heatran and Timid Magnezone, but you really need Adamant for the power (for example, Jolly misses out on 2HKOs against Landorus and Salamence).

Of 'course i am talking about Jolly Scizor. You need to outspeed Zone, defensive Heatran, Defensive Toed, Breloom, Jirachi and Celebi before they have a chance to hit you.

 

[BowlArt64]

I'm kinda liking Mienshao. Zoroark can eliminate Ghosts and such pretty easily, making High Jump Kick a ton more spammable. Because revenging seems to be a focus of this stage, I'll nominate Scarf Mienshao:

Mienshao @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature (+Spe, -SpD)
- High Jump Kick
- U-turn
- Stone Edge / Me First
- Hidden Power (Ice) / Me First

Outspeeds a solid amount from the offensive threatlist Pocket posted, and HJK hits like a truck. U-turn is cool for momentum, Stone Edge covers some things that HJK and Zoroark can't deal with all that well, like Gyarados, and HP Ice lets it both KO Gliscor and revenge Dragon Dancers with one Dance and ScarfMence. Definitely one of the more powerful Scarfers for non-weather teams. Regenerator screws with any possibility of abusing Illusion more than once with it, but it appreciates the longevity. If we were to choose a Scarfer this early, it's definitely something to consider. Other sets like SD could work too, though.

Other than that, I'm also liking PenguinX's Lucario as a priority-based revenger. Bullet Punch is really cool to pair with Espeed, and it's probably best that the set is walled by stuff like Jellicent so Zoro can help out more. Another option to consider on it is Justified, since it's legal with SD / CC / ES / BP and is usually more useful than Inner Focus.

 

[Pocket]

I'm iffy about ScarfMie... it does provide a check to Dragon sweepers, chloro sweepers, Cloyster, and Gyarados, but it's Scizor / TTar / Ferro / Gastrodon bait. I know that the last two is also an issue for LO Starmie, but at least the latter has an important utility of removing hazards (and sand if we use Rain Dance).

LO Mamoswine, though, would be more in the spirit of the heavy offense theme of this team, with very few counters. It does compound our Scizor weakness, though.

Ninjask... I doubt it'll work. It's major set-up bait for offensive and defensive teams.

Scarf Mienshao is pretty cool. I'd slash Me First, since it would do a more solid job in finishing off Haxorus and Dragonite locked into Outrage than Hi Jump Kick / Stone-Edge (would Mienshao be locked into Outrage if it uses Me First?)

 

[jc104]

Regenerator screws with any possibility of abusing Illusion more than once with it

This is completely untrue. In fact, Regenerator would do exactly the opposite; you could bring Mienshao in several times, fire off an attack, and even after some time the opponent would not be able to rule out it being a Zoroark. The main issue with illusion bluffing is the SR resistance.

Anyway, I really like the look of Scarf Mienshao. It greatly appreciates the removal of Ghost-types, some Psychic-types, and Skarmory by Zoroark, and provides our team with a very fast revenge killer, scout and late-game cleaner.

The only issue I have with it is its extreme frailty. Zoroark and Haxorus are already bad enough on their own. I'd worry that we'd have to put more defensive Pokemon into the rest of the team to make up for it.

 

[Katakiri]

I've been doing some testing, doing well, made it past 1337 ladder points, replays, etc.

Zoroark & Haxorus working together:
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Lemonwolf-vs-Katakiri--2012-04-25-private2079158480

Teammate options working with Zoroark & Haxorus:
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Katakiri-vs-CnMr--2012-04-25-private2017354481
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Katakiri-vs-Your-wish-come-true--2012-04-25-private1674153428

The full team is Zoroark, DubDance Lum Haxorus, LO DD Gyarados, Nasty Plot Toxicroak, TrickScarf Metagross, SD AcroBat Gliscor with Stealth Rock over Sub.

So after playing with this team, I'm definitely renominating DD Gyarados but making Double Edge the main option.

Gyarados @ Life Orb
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 8 Def / 248 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Double Edge
- Earthquake

During my test run on the ladder, the MVPs were either Gyarados, my Nasty Plot Toxicroak (usually against Rain teams), or Double Dance Haxorus. You can probably tell from the 2nd replay that without Gyarados, that team would fail as he pulls probably more than his fair share of the weight.

Everything I said earlier stays true about Gyarados. He covers Zoroark's weaknesses, he's great on offense, hits on the opposite side of the spectrum as Zoroark, & he's known for using Substitute. BUT anything doing with Zoroark's Illusion is purely bonus as that is not at all why I chose him. It's about Gyarados' typing & coverage being really good in this metagame.

Intimidate is a godsend. Lowering the Attack of a Dragon trying to set-up or one that has already set up is a great asset in this metagame. Of course, Gyarados also stop Fighting-types minus Terrakion, Volcarona, Scizor, & some Sun sweepers in their tracks; Pokemon that Zoroark tends to draw in.

And again,
252 +1 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Double-Edge vs 128 HP /0 Def Rotom-W: 94.14% - 110.62% [62.5% chance to OHKO]
252 +1 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Double-Edge vs 4 HP/0 Def Hydreigon: 91.1% - 107.06% [43.75% chance to OHKO]
252 +1 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Double-Edge vs 4 HP/0 Def Politoed: 107.14% - 126.09% [100% chance to OHKO]

Double Edge is really good. No accuracy problems like Stone Edge, 120 Base Power, and lets Gyarados get past Starmie, Rotom-W, Politoed, and Dragon-types.

Gyarados also gives Zoroark a good disguise for drawing out Ferrothorn against Rain teams, but that's strictly secondary to everything else Gyarados does.

 

[Woodchuck]

This team is going to have trouble with Tornadus and Scizor already revenges both threats on the team easily. To deal with this, I'm nominating my own variant (edit: with alexwolf's superior EVs) of Specially Defensive Zapdos.

@ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 236 SpD / 24 Spe
edit: 248 HP / 64 SpA / 180 SpD / 16 Spe is better
Modest Nature (+SpA, -Atk)
- Discharge / Volt Switch
- Roost
- Heat Wave
- Drill Peck

This EV spread is a little weird but the Speed EVs allow it to outspeed most Scizor and uninvested Roserade.

With 248 HP evs and 180 SpD evs, you avoid the 2hko from Specs Tornauds after SR. Also there is no need to run a -Spe nature, as even with Timid, Drill Peck ohkoes Virizion (114.81 - 137.03%), ohkoes offensive Volcarona after SR, or simply 2hkoes, just as before, and against bulky variants you were losing anyway, and finally still 2hkoes Breloom, even at +1.

So i suggest that you use 248 HP / 64 SpA / 180 SpD / 16 Spe with a Modest nature. The speed evs are to ensure that you are able to outspeed and ohko most Politoed, including Modest Specs Politoed, which ohkoes after (88.51 - 104.43%). We could put enough Speed to outrun Timid SpecsToed, which still ohkoes after SR, but it is pretty rare so i don't think it is worth it...

Discharge always ohkoes Tornadus and Starmie and helps spread paralysis, Roost is recovery, Heat Wave ohkoes Scizor outside of rain (and you're beating pretty much all Scizor one-on-one) and 2hkoes Ferrothorn outside of rain. (But we can use Zoroark to weaken Ferrothorn).

Drill Peck, however, is the coolest move on the set. It KOes all but the bulkiest Volcarona, but more importantly OHKOes Virizion, which would be a pain in the ass for this team, as well as KOing Roserade before it can set up Toxic Spikes and ruin Haxorus's Lum Berry or whatever it tries to hold. With potentially multiple Substitute users, this is helpful.

Anyways, Zapdos covers a lot of threats on this team and is overall a nice pivot to go to in general. It also helps with a lot of fighting types and spreading paralysis can help give the other Pokemon chances to sweep. If anything, having a Pokemon that defeats all variants of Scizor with impunity is always nice with Scizor at like 40% usage.

edit: Thanks, alexwolf, Volt Switch is definitely viable over Discharge. The question is, which do we value more? Paralysis or momentum?

 

[ginganinja]

love the replays Katakiri, well done!

I actually don't have a problem with Gyarados this round, since I fully argee that Intimidate is great in this metagame, and Gyarados being one of the best offensive Scizor checks out there only strengthens its case. That said, if Gyarados DID get selected, I personally, would really push for using a Spinner since I just think that LO + SR + Double Edge recoil kills it too fast for my liking.

Also man Trick Scarf Metagross looks so boss

Personally, excluding the biggest threats we have to beat with this team, I still am highlighting Scizor as one of the toughest. It has massive usage, so its going to see use on a high percentage of teams that we face. 2 of our members are Priority weak, and ideally I would prefer we not run something like Mienshao, since it has no bulk to speak of, and only makes us more vulnerable to Scizor. So yea, atm I am very much supporting Gyarados even tho I have reservations about LO + Double Edge + SR residual damage piling up

EDIT

Shit Zapdos looks so good as well, fuck what do I pick

 

[Woodchuck]

This team is going to have trouble with Tornadus and Scizor already revenges both threats on the team easily. To deal with this, I'm nominating my own variant of Specially Defensive Zapdos.

@ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 236 SpD / 24 Spe
edit: 248 HP / 64 SpA / 180 SpD / 16 Spe is better
Modest Nature (+SpA, -Atk)
- Discharge / Volt Switch
- Roost
- Heat Wave
- Drill Peck

This EV spread is a little weird but the Speed EVs allow it to outspeed most Scizor and uninvested Roserade.

With 248 HP evs and 180 SpD evs, you avoid the 2hko from Specs Tornauds after SR. Also there is no need to run a -Spe nature, as even with Timid, Drill Peck ohkoes Virizion (114.81 - 137.03%), ohkoes offensive Volcarona after SR, or simply 2hkoes, just as before, and against bulky variants you were losing anyway, and finally still 2hkoes Breloom, even at +1.

So i suggest that you use 248 HP / 64 SpA / 180 SpD / 16 Spe with a Modest nature. The speed evs are to ensure that you are able to outspeed and ohko most Politoed, including Modest Specs Politoed, which ohkoes after (88.51 - 104.43%). We could put enough Speed to outrun Timid SpecsToed, which still ohkoes after SR, but it is pretty rare so i don't think it is worth it...

Discharge always ohkoes Tornadus and Starmie and helps spread paralysis, Roost is recovery, Heat Wave ohkoes Scizor outside of rain (and you're beating pretty much all Scizor one-on-one) and 2hkoes Ferrothorn outside of rain. (But we can use Zoroark to weaken Ferrothorn).

Drill Peck, however, is the coolest move on the set. It KOes all but the bulkiest Volcarona, but more importantly OHKOes Virizion, which would be a pain in the ass for this team, as well as KOing Roserade before it can set up Toxic Spikes and ruin Haxorus's Lum Berry or whatever it tries to hold. With potentially multiple Substitute users, this is helpful.

Anyways, Zapdos covers a lot of threats on this team and is overall a nice pivot to go to in general. It also helps with a lot of fighting types and spreading paralysis can help give the other Pokemon chances to sweep. If anything, having a Pokemon that defeats all variants of Scizor with impunity is always nice with Scizor at like 40% usage.

edit: Thanks, alexwolf, Volt Switch is definitely viable over Discharge. The question is, which do we value more? Paralysis or momentum?

To assist Zapdos I'm going to nominate another Pokemon as a partner to it -- Swords Dance Virizion.

@ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Naive Nature (+Spe, -Def)
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Leaf Blade
- Hidden Power Ice

While Specially Defensive Zapdos is cool, it has difficulties with strong rain boosted Water-type attacks and it is pretty much helpless against Landorus. Virizion patches up these weaknesses. Even with a Naive nature, Scarf Rotom-W's rain-boosted Hydro Pump never 2HKOes Virizion. Tornadus -- a huge threat to Virizion -- is covered by Zapdos. Zapdos also can beat non-Fire Blast Volcarona, which sets up on Virizion. Virizion, in return, destroys Landorus and also weakens physical walls such as Skarmory to allow the rest of the team to clean up. +2 Close Combat also always OHKOes Scizor. Hidden Power Ice helps Virizion kill Gliscor to open the way up for Haxorus.

We don't necessarily have to use SD Virizion. I chose it because it weakens physical walls, which would certainly help Haxorus out. Also, I like having Close Combat as opposed to Focus Blast. However, CM Virizion has the advantages of greater longevity and not caring about burns.

Overall, Zapdos + Virizion would be a neat core. I'm not sure how I should go about nominating this, as, while they work well together, they both would be good on the team apart from one another. If Zapdos and Virizion both end up winning that would be great, but... well, I don't like having to choose one. Zapdos is probably best standalone as it covers Tornadus, which is definitely a big potential threat to a HO team. Zappy can also take a hit from Venusaur in a pinch and KO with Heat Wave.

Also, Katakiri's Gyarados + my Virizion working together would provide power and bulk to help muscle through the enemy team, so Gyarados + Virizion is just as good as Zapdos + Virizion in my book. Virizion and Zapdos both share an Ice weakness with Haxorus... Zapdos is better against Tornadus though, which could prove to be crucial. Most Ice-type attack users aren't beating Virizion one-on-one anyways (hello, Mamoswine being ohkoed). Zapdos also doesn't hate residual damage as much as Gyarados as less stuff forces Zapdos out than Gyarados, and Zappy gets Lefties and Roost.

also, now I really want to make a team with a Zapdos + Virizion core :X

 

[alexwolf]

Because ginjaninja mentioned Scizor, i also have to say that Roost Scizor is a great check to CB Scizor, as it can take it's attacks and Roost of the damage, so it gives us a solid switch in against him. Of 'course it shouldn't be our main answer, since the Scizor switch-in would be very predictable, and our own Scizor would get worn by SR + U-turn a lot, since it will be forced out by their counter/check. But the move that worries our 2 team members the most as of now, is BP, and Scizor is perfectly capable of absorbing it itself and healing with Roost. So another nice plus of Roost Scizor i guess.

I like Zapdos, although i am not sure about the evs and the moves, since we are using a very offensive team here. The most obvious change we could make is to at least put Volt Change, so that we can keep momentum.

EDIT: You said that Tornadus is a big problem and that's one of the main reasons you nominated Zapdos. Why use all this SpD evs though? With 248 HP evs and 180 SpD evs, you avoid the 2hko from Specs Tornadus after SR, so the rest can be put to SpA along with a Modest nature, to hit stuff harder, or in speed.

Finally about Drill Peck. +1 offensive Rona ohkoes SpDefensive Zapdos after SR with Fire Blast, and defensive Rona loses 49% max from Drill Peck, so even if you don't get burned before Morning Sun's pps are finished, Volcarona will have gotten enough boosts to muscle through you. So Drill Peck is only a way to prevent offensive Volcarona from setting up on Zapdos, and nothing more (in the case of Rona).

Obviously it is good for Virizion and BU Breloom in rain (why do you keep mentioning Roserade, it is not such a relevant threat in OU).

 

[Woodchuck]

Yeah, Drill Peck is mostly for Breloom and Virizion. Still, avoiding becoming Volcarona setup fodder is always good.

Dropping the Special Defense EVs sounds like a good idea as well. A good new spread for Zapdos would be:

Sassy 248 HP / 60 SpA / 176 SpD / 24 Spe so many ev spread changes

176 SpD hits the extra point in Special Defense and still avoids a 2HKO from Specs Tornadus after SR. There is not really anything significant between 217 Speed (24 Speed EVs) and 231 Speed (84 Speed EVs) that Zapdos should outrun, so the rest goes into Special Attack to ensure a 2HKO on Jellicent, Jirachi, Gengar and Tentacruel even without SR up. Putting the EVs into Attack for Drill Peck honestly doesn't help as much -- it doesn't turn that many 2HKOes into OHKOes or 3HKOes into 2HKOes from what I can see using Honko's calc.

The 60 SpA EVs also nearly ensure that Ferrothorn switching into Discharge gets OHKOed by Heat Wave on the follow-up provided SR is up.

Anyways, good point, alexwolf.

EDIT: Ok. I like the idea of running Modest. 248 HP / 64 SpA / 180 SpD / 16 Spe with Modest it is.

 

[Bad Ass]

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Double Edge
- Taunt

the best gyarados set. double edge + waterfall gives you all the coverage that you need, especially since we have all of the ferrothorn / jelli baiting power in the world. if SR isn't up, zoroark just obliterates gyarados' counters. he also has great longevity and eats bullet punches and fire blasts for breakfast while not sitting around. double edge is crazy strong! try it out and you will see

 

[alexwolf]

Yeah, Drill Peck is mostly for Breloom and Virizion. Still, avoiding becoming Volcarona setup fodder is always good.

Dropping the Special Defense EVs sounds like a good idea as well. A good new spread for Zapdos would be:

Sassy 248 HP / 60 SpA / 176 SpD / 24 Spe

176 SpD hits the extra point in Special Defense and still avoids a 2HKO from Specs Tornadus after SR. There is not really anything significant between 217 Speed (24 Speed EVs) and 231 Speed (84 Speed EVs) that Zapdos should outrun, so the rest goes into Special Attack to ensure a 2HKO on Jellicent, Jirachi, Gengar and Tentacruel even without SR up. Putting the EVs into Attack for Drill Peck honestly doesn't help as much -- it doesn't turn that many 2HKOes into OHKOes or 3HKOes into 2HKOes from what I can see using Honko's calc.

The 60 SpA EVs also nearly ensure that Ferrothorn switching into Discharge gets OHKOed by Heat Wave on the follow-up provided SR is up.

Anyways, good point, alexwolf.

Still why Sassy nature? With 248 HP evs and 180 SpD evs, you avoid the 2hko from Specs Tornauds after SR. Also there is no need to run a -Spe nature, as even with Timid, Drill Peck ohkoes Virizion (114.81 - 137.03%), ohkoes offensive Volcarona after SR, or simply 2hkoes, just as before, and against bulky variants you were losing anyway, and finally still 2hkoes Breloom, even at +1.

So i suggest that you use 248 HP / 64 SpA / 180 SpD / 16 Spe with a Modest nature. The speed evs are to ensure that you are able to outspeed and ohko most Politoed, including Modest Specs Politoed, which ohkoes after SR(88.51 - 104.43%). We could put enough Speed to outrun Timid SpecsToed, which still ohkoes after SR, but it is pretty rare so i don't think it is worth it...

 

[Katakiri]

Woodchuck, you should give Hidden Power Flying Zapdos a shot. It hits Volca harder than Drill Peck and flat-out ends Breloom & Virizion, while being a great STAB move to smack Celebi, Gliscor, & Conkeldurr with.

I ran an Zapdos on a previous Zoroark team I made (Zoro's always been my go-to "fun" Pokemon) for a lot of the same reasons as you listed and I can vouch that Zapdos works just as well as Gyarados, for different reasons of course.


My only problem with the set you posted is the Defensive nature of the set, well just the EVs, the move-choice is fine. With Heavy Offense, I'm assuming we're building a team of (decently) heavy hitters around Zoroark, so having Zapdos be slower than Pokemon like Dragonite & SubHydreigon with no way to significantly damage them seems out of place if not a bit counter-productive.

Offensive Zapdos can still take down Virizion, Breloom, Scizor, & Ferrothorn with HP Flying & Heat Wave, and in fact OHKOing Virizion through it's Calm Mind boost. Zapdos can take at least one Specs Hurricane from Tornadus even after SR, a guaranteed revenge KO bar Confusion hax, and it can take a HP Ice from +1 Virizion. You miss out on Volcarona & Starmie (assuming Volca is already at +1, otherwise HP Flying maims it), but we still have 3 more team slots to fill so we don't have to try to stretch Pokemon so thin this early in team building.

 

[Woodchuck]

My problem is that if Zapdos gets taken down to like 40% from Tornadus before it KOes it, it's pretty much dead weight for the rest of the match as even with max speed Timid it's often too slow to get a Roost in.
Basically, I'm not sure if offensive Zapdos is worth it. It seems just a little slow to my taste to be run as a offensive set -- I wanted to try and give the team a defensive pivot that still offered some power and covered enough threats to allow the other slots of the team more freedom to be heavy hitters.

I'd like to add that Modest 64 SpA Zapdos still hits 331 Special Attack (for comparison, 252 SpA Timid Zapdos hits 349) so, while it doesn't quite hit as hard (especially without Life Orb) it's still got decent power. (Better than max neutral SpA Starmie or Celebi). However, it trades loss of power and speed in return for durability and being able to actually switch into Tornadus -- I just hate the idea of sacrificing something to Tornadus every time it comes out. Especially because Zapdos is SR weak, so Tornadus can just come in, nuke something with Hurricane, then switch to something that can force Zapdos out, like Heatran or Gastrodon, until Zapdos is too weak to even withstand one Hurricane.

Also, HP Flying from the bulky Zapdos spread breaks Hydreigon's Substitutes most of the time, so that's something. Hidden Power Flying is way better than Drill Peck in pretty much every scenario, except that the bulky spread 248 HP / 64 SpA / 180 SpD / 16 Spe OHKOes +1 Virizion with Drill Peck and not Hidden Power Flying. This doesn't really matter as Zapdos is beating any CM Virizion one on one with HP Flying regardless.

Actually, here's a thought: is Life Orb a viable item over Leftovers on the Specially Defensive Zapdos? It would make it a pretty potent offensive threat at this point, so it may be the best of both worlds between Max / Max Timid and a fully defensive Zapdos. We would just need to be careful to keep SR off the field.

 

[Pocket]

I personally feel that defensive mons like that Zapdos would make our team more vulnerable to offensive threats that can set up on Zapdos (ie DD Dragonite, CM Latios, RP Terrakion in sand). However, it does pack enough punch to not completely forfeit offensive momentum. Roar or Volt Switch is probably better on the Roost slot. Roar thwarts any attempt at setting up in front of Zapdos, while racking residual damage and gaining turns for Leftovers recovery. Volt Switch is just good for switch opportunities. On an offensive team such as ours, I doubt Zapdos would really need to live long enough to Roost.

I can see the merit in using Gyarados. It not only provides Bullet Punch resistance like Zapdos, but can also pull off a sweep. Gyarados's Intimidate is also a handy ability for this team that cannot afford to pack much defenses. The only troubling factors that I can think of is that it's troubled by Scarf Rotom-W, which can annoy this team with its Volt Turn shenanigans.

What do you guys think of Moxie ScarfMence? It doubles up as not only as a revenge killer, but also as a late-game sweeper. It has similar counters to Haxorus, so it can possibly clean up late-game after Zoroark and Haxorus weaken ScarfMence's counters. ScarfMence has been used successfully in a few RMTs, such as Accidental Greed's Dark Horse Team, bubbly's Rain Offense, and of course ginganinja's Nuclear Warfare.

Anybody with experience wielding this beast - do you think Moxie ScarfMence would work on this team? Do you think Dragonite is better than MoxieMence for checking offensive threats and sweeping? I can certainly see Dragonite faring better against Sun teams.

 

[ginganinja]

lol I had this whole post typed up and then my fucking computer froze the moment I finished it just to troll me and I lost it all -_-

Anyway, Im replying to Pocket cos he threw my name around in people that have used Scarf Mence so I reckon I should weigh in. Basically, Scarf Mence is very good at revenging. It is however, pretty poor at late game sweeping (personally) as it does lack that punch to KO, get a Moxie Boost, and sweep. Trust me, having used a team that ran Specs Heatran to dominate steels in tandem with CB Nite to dent the steels not named Skarmory who decided to stay in... Scarf Mence didn't see too much use as a late game sweeper. maybe this was due to the fact that I ran Intimidate for so long, idk, but I know that initially, Dragon Claw was fucking weak (I swear it failed to OHKO a haxorus or something and I was floored at how weak it was), but yea, id didn't end up late sweeping. More to the point, I feel like it doesn't address too many of our problems. To start with, if Stealth Rock is up, its going to take a beating which forces us to run a spinner, lets say, Starmie. Scarf Mence does not really beat Scarf Terrakion, or Scarf Landorus, which outspeed and nail with Stone Edge, and (iirc) it needs Stone Edge to beat Volcarona as well, while you risk getting burnt thanks to flame body. It also, makes us REALLY weak to Scizor. Last CCAT, our ENTIRE team was basically 6-0ed by CB Scizor (or basically any Scizor really) and it took a fair bit of reworking to fix this. Adding Scarf Salamence, with the likelihood of a Starmie later on, I feel just makes us so Scizor weak and quite frankly, I rate Scizor as a higher threat to this team, rather than Rotom W which haxorus can tank a hit from and set up a Dragon Dance on, and Gyarados can dent a Rotom W with Double Edge so its not toooooooo tricky.

Do you think Dragonite is better than MoxieMence for checking offensive threats and sweeping?

Hard to say. I think that having used CB Nite a LOT its a very effective check to shit like Volcarona, Reuniclus, and just randomly KOing shit, while having a powerful Extreme Speed to kill frailer shit that's weakened. I think comparing Dragonite and Moxie Mence is a mistake since both really do different things. I don't consider Scarf Mence a sweeper, more of a revenge killer, while Dragonite checks a lot of things if its Multi Scale is up, however unless its CB its hard for it to revenge things, but it does sweep better. Perhaps if you clarified what you were asking for Pocket, I would be able to give a better answer as im not sure what you want lol.

tl:dr: I think Scizor is a bigger threat and I really want that thing checked FIRST since its an exceptionally common pokemon, and currently fucks our team up. Maybe im paranoid but I don't want to have to change half the team again for the CCAT final product lol.

 

[Shurtugal]

Hello Smogon!

I foremost want to apologize for not being so active on these CCAT's, as we are a community and I feel I should be more active (and hopefully I will.)

As for our possible new members for the team, I feel as though Scizor is a necessity to the team. I was skimming over our threat lists that Pocket conveniently provided for us and lets see how Bulky SD Scizor checks / counters them.

@

Trait: Technician
Nature: Adamant
EV's: 252 Hp / 40 Atk / 216 SDef

~ Swords Dance
~ Roost
~ Bullet Punch
~ Bug Bite

Threats:

What Scizor counters​

SubDisable Gengar: With special defense investment, and roost, Scizor can set up on this all day fearing only a critical hit. Can play mind games with disable but jumping between Bug Bite and Bullet Punch. Easily paves a path to sweep afterwards unless major counters for Scizor are still alive so Gengar is countered quite well (as we can switch into FB fine with Special Defense bulk.)

MoxieScarf Mence: A bit annoying, as Outrage will do a lot of it has gathered enough Moxie boosts, but if we come in early we can ultimately check it between Bullet Punch and Swords Dance. +0 Outrage is 3-4 KO'ing Scizor, so we can easily set up if we come in on an Outrage, and +2 Bullet Punch's are a 12.5% chance of a OHKO, so Scizor makes a great counter to mence as well.

DD Haxorus: With resistance to his Dragon STABs, we can continually set up to around +4 and pretty much go from there with Bullet Punches. We can tank his Outrage's fairly well and with roost to back Scizor up, Haxorus is countered by Scizor.

Sub Landorus: Bullet Punch and SD pretty much weaken this thing, it needs a sub before Scizor comes in to even safely hit it, and since it usually fears banded, getting a SD boost is easy. Even if the set is known, we do a decent job tanking its hits and revenging it that it is safely coutnered by Scizor.

Variants of Terrakion: Unless for some odd reason it gets up a substitute (since can only be done safely when fighting stall) Scizot threatens and kills this thing all day everyday, as Bullet Punch nabs OHKO after CC defense drops. It can tank a CC on the switch as well, making a nice counter to Terrakion 1v1.

Scarf Kyreum: Easily tank hits, set up everywhere, and we continue to nab the sweep with super effective Bullet Punches.

CB Scizor: We can easily tank even Superpower and roost + SD up with our own Scizor, which helps with our Scizor problem.

What Scizor Checks:​

Choice Specs / LO Tornadus: If we have a SD boosts before it comes in, we can easily OHKO with +2 Bullet Punch. However, we cannot safely switch into 2HKO Hurricane, as its risky. We can switch in after something dies, set up a SD, and revenge it with BP. Makes a nice check.

LO Starmie: This thing in rain is dealing massive damage, but we can ultimately counter it after switching in or predicting it to come in and going for Bug Bite.

Offensive Venusaur: Switching into a HP [Fire] is not cool, but Vena is 56% OHKO'ed by +2 Bullet Punch, thus making it a risky check.


I would like to say that Zapdos is a great addition if we got with Scizor, as it helps counter all of those nasty rain threats that Scizor can't (e.g. DD Gyara, CS Torn, LO Torn, Sharpedo, ect.) Also, I would go for roar, because it phazes baton pass and substitute. Whereas Volt-Switch isn't as great without a U-turner and Scizor and Zoroark are not turning (although the team blufs Volt-Turn really well if we make the changes.) So I am also going to nominate Offensive Zapdos as Scizor's partner.

@

Trait: Pressure
Nature: Modest
EV's: 248 HP / 64 SpA / 180 SpD / 16 Spe

~ Discharge / Volt Switch
~ Roar
~ Heat Wave
~ Hidden Power [Flying]

Credits go to Woodchuck

What Zapdos Counters​

SD Virizion: We can easily switch into any set, even CM, as we can phaze the CM set and hit SD hard with a Life Orb powered HP Flying. Be warned that if it gets +2 up, Stone Edge will be dealing massive damage to Zapdos (not sure if it OHKOs and I have to go soon so typing fast.)

SD Scizor: We have Heat Wave + Immunity to Bullet Punch. With the lack of HP [Ice], we should be wary of a u-turn to Landorus, but other than that, we can easily take a, even +6, Bullet Punch / Bug Bite and return with the OHKO.

Venusaur: HP Flying and Heat Wave shut it down, and we can easily take +0 HP [Ice]. Sleep Powder, although rare, is a thorn, so that is to be warned of. But with low acc., low usage of the move, and sleep clause, I think Zapdos makes a nice counter.

Tornadus: OHKO with Discharge and wall it completely.

Gyarados: See above.

What Zapdos Checks​

LO Infernape: With Flare Blitz and sun around, we can only hope to predict the CC right. We can hit it on the switch, but if it is in sun, we can't hope to touch it. I'm being nice saying that it is a check to ape though.

SS Cloyster: We can hope it doesn't have sash and discharge, hope for paralysis, but if it has sash or has +2 before we come in it can OHKO us with Icicle Spear.



These are my nominations and opinion of now. I know I repeated what some other users said, but I thought I would make myself useful and map out how they benefit the team. These two work great togethor with our current team, so I would like to see them in action.


Pros: Checks / Counters many of our threat list.
Cons: It seems like we are playing bulky offense.

 

[ginganinja]

Sub Landorus: Bullet Punch and SD pretty much weaken this thing, it needs a sub before Scizor comes in to even safely hit it, and since it usually fears banded, getting a SD boost is easy. Even if the set is known, we do a decent job tanking its hits and revenging it that it is safely coutnered by Scizor.

Scarf Landorus can hit you for around 70% Max with Sand Force Earthquake while a +0 Bullet Punch maxes out at 48%. You don't counter this really as you cannot switch in.

DD Haxorus: With resistance to his Dragon STABs, we can continually set up to around +4 and pretty much go from there with Bullet Punches. We can tank his Outrage's fairly well and with roost to back Scizor up, Haxorus is countered by Scizor.

Nitpicking but you cannot get to +4 on Haxorus. Haxorus gets a DD as you switch in, Earthquakes as you SD taking you to under 50%, and then you Bullet Punch or die.

EDIT @ Scarf Ape

Scizor (CB) Bullet Punch: 119-141 (40.61 - 48.12%) -- 98.44% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather or 62.11% after Stealth Rock. I hate being nitpicky but can we pls try and get something that can actually take a few Bullet Punchs x_x

EDIT 2 nvm fucking natures x_x

 

[Pocket]

Thanks for the feedback, ginganinja! I was comparing Moxie ScarfMence versus Dragonite, because I thought either of them could pair up well with SD Scizor to check a multitude of threats.

I ran some calcs and Salamence does KO Haxorus for the most part (97-115% to 36 HP Haxorus; 100% OHKO against min HP Haxorus) and OHKOs Latios with ease. It does need to rely on Outrage or super-effective coverage moves to take out neutral targets, such as Starmie, or Tornadus, however. Stone Edge is actually not a bad choice to have on a ScarfMence imo.

The flaw in Dragonite is that it must rely on ExtremeSpeed to check mons. ScarfMence can more often than not utilize harder hitting moves for its revenge kill. However, DDNite does offer more flexibility, and it offers less chance for Scizor to ruin our team.

Thus, I will nominate DD Nite and SD Scizor for our revenge-killing needs. I am nominating them together - which makes this submission different from PenguinX's. The set I propose is also slightly different, too.

Scizor @ Metal Coat
Trait: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Swords Dance
- Superpower

Unlike the LO SD set, this has U-turn to provide the switch advantage when it is not ready to sweep. This comes in handy for switching Zoroark or any of our other Sweepers safely into say a Jellicent or Heatran that attempts to wall Scizor. Metal Coat preserves Scizor's usable bulk while boosting Bullet Punch's power. It also helps to bluff this set as a choiced set.

Dragonite @ Life Orb / Lum Berry
Trait: MultiScale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -Spe)
- Outrage
- ExtremeSpeed
- Dragon Dance
- Fire Punch

I am suggesting Life Orb > Lum Berry (although both are still available as options), since it provides significant power to not only Dragonite's ExtremeSpeed, but towards his other moves as well. After a DD, +1 LO Outrage will 2HKO max HP Heatran and Jirachi. Skarmory loses 61-71% from +1 Fire Punch, a solid 2HKO. I just think it's more conducive for checking threats with ExtremeSpeed. It can still make use of MultiScale to pull off the free DD.

 

[Tomahawk]

Infernape @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Blaze
EVs: 108 Atk / 148 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Close Combat
- Fire Blast / Flare Blitz
- Stone Edge / Hidden Power Ice
- U-turn

Why not use Infernape for a Scarfer? Infernape isn't that easily walled with its dual STAB moves, and it has U-turn as well. It's also fast enough to outspeed Salamence and Dragonite, resists Bullet Punch from Scizor, and resists both STAB moves from Volcarona (though with its low defenses it isn't tanking them easily). It takes on most of the Pokemon on the list pretty well, and Scizor and Volcarona as well for ginganinja. The choice between Stone Edge and Hidden Power Ice also depends on the choice of Fire Blast or Flare Blitz. When using Fire Blast, Stone Edge is necessary to KO Volcarona. When using Flare Blitz, however, Hidden Power Ice is a good option since Flare Blitz in the sun KOes Volcarona. Hidden Power Ice can be useful for hitting Salamence, Dragonite, and Landorus harder than either Stone Edge or Fire Blast respectively.

Edit: 252 Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Infernape: 36,52% - 43%, 3 hits to KO

 

[Pocket]

Yea, I was also considering Scarf Nape - thanks for bringing it up, Tomahawk! ScarfNape may actually be a better scarfer of choice than say a Terrakion, as it does not compound our weakness to Bullet Punch, and it has access to U-turn.

I'd go with Stone Edge regardless of the Fire STAB, since otherwise Gyarados would be a bitch. Flare Blitz's recoil sucks, but it does a better job at checking mons like Virizion and CM Jirachi.

 

[bubbly]

What do you guys think of Moxie ScarfMence? It doubles up as not only as a revenge killer, but also as a late-game sweeper. It has similar counters to Haxorus, so it can possibly clean up late-game after Zoroark and Haxorus weaken ScarfMence's counters. ScarfMence has been used successfully in a few RMTs, such as Accidental Greed's Dark Horse Team, bubbly's Rain Offense, and of course ginganinja's Nuclear Warfare.

Anybody with experience wielding this beast - do you think Moxie ScarfMence would work on this team? Do you think Dragonite is better than MoxieMence for checking offensive threats and sweeping? I can certainly see Dragonite faring better against Sun teams.

That's the first time anyone with a badge has mentioned one of my teams outside the RMT forum so I had to answer =P Offensively Moxie Mence fits perfectly on what we have already, and most people I've used it against or have used it tell me that it's one of the best sweepers they've seen. From my own perspective, its an absolute juggernaut if you weaken Steels because it can literally start a sweep against most stuff in the metagame at any time. The big benefit to this is that it doesn't just check offensive threats, it turns them into setup fodder. The other reason I'd like ScarfMence is that we already completely crush common defensive cores with the current members, but lack a speedy cleaner to take advantage of that.

What people have been saying about the Scizor / Jirachi weakness is true though. I'm agreeing with the other comments in saying the next member chosen should be something like Gyarados which sets up on them, and maybe the member after that too, before we commit to selecting Mence.

Hope that helps :)

 

[Tomahawk]

Gyarados @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang

Last nomination I swear. Anyways, if you're in doubt between using Gyarados and Scarf MoxieMence, why not try a mix between the two? Scarf MoxieDos is also a good late-game cleaner, as Waterfall also has good coverage by itself. Unfortunately it isn't quite as good as Outrage, but it comes with a bonus of a better defensive typing.