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Gen 1 OU for a reason.

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by poketrainerash, Dec 28, 2009.

  1. poketrainerash

    poketrainerash

    Joined:
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    Gengar
    Hypnosis
    Mega Drain
    Explosion
    Psychic

    Put opponents lead to sleep and switch out. Psychic and Mega Drain are there for coverage in the later game.



    Dragonite
    Wrap
    Agility
    Hyper Beam
    Fire Blast​

    Used to wrap the switch in from Hypnosis. After that, use Agility and try to sweep the other team.


    Alakazam
    Psychic
    Thunder Wave
    Seismic Toss
    Recover​

    Standard Alakazam. Thunder Wave if all other status inflictions are gone. Seismic Toss is for consistent damage and Recover is to last longer



    Starmie
    Thunderbolt
    Ice Beam
    Recover
    Surf​

    This Starmie is used for pure type coverage. The standard BoltBeam combo that is popular in 4th gen. In this team, he will follow Alakazam and clean up the pieces left behind



    Golem
    Earthquake​
    Rock Slide
    Selfdestruct
    Substitute​

    My physical wall. This set takes advantage of his nice defense and attack. Earthquake and Rock Slide are there for STAB. Substitute to last longer



    Tauros
    Body Slam​
    Blizzard
    Earthquake
    Hyper Beam​

    This set is meant to pick up the pieces. He will be able to go through a frail and weakened team to wipe them out. Hyper Beam ad Body Slam takes advantage of STAB and his huge attack.
  2. Altmer

    Altmer rid this world of human waste
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    fuck mega drain, splode on gar
  3. Borat

    Borat

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    -Surf +Hydro Pump.

    -Alakazam +Chansey
  4. poketrainerash

    poketrainerash

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    I don't know. Doesn't that take out a sweeper. The only upside of Chansey is his Health. However, he sacrifices a lot of speed to get it. Is it worth taking out a powerful sweeper for the health?
  5. moymoy

    moymoy

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    Unless your friends AREN'T playing OU, I would never consider Alakazam a sweeper. Psychic is by far the most prevalent type in OU (Starmie, Eggy, Slowbro, etc.), and so you won't be hitting things hard like you did when Alakzam swept in-game.

    Most of the time when you send Zam in, your opponent will just switch for Chansey, Starmie, or another Zam, which will just be a stalemate, and if you try to fight this stalemate, you are just going to get your Zam paralyzed. Sure, you can force SpDowns with Zam to get an edge, but by getting paralyzed, you lost the speed advantage, and you are left defenseless against any physical sweeper. At least Chansey has a lot more bulk, enjoys being paralyzed in these stalemates, and can hit everything in the game with boltbeam (remember that Chansey is actually a decent special attacker in RBY due to only one special stat)

    I like having Zam on my team to spread paralysis, and he's quite good at it. I never really considered him a special sweeper though... To use him OVER chansey imo is a grave mistake
  6. Smurf.

    Smurf.
    is a Past SPL Winner

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    For an offensive team such as this I would never take chansey over alakazam. One on One it will always, ALWAYS Come up with the goods. Your opponent thinks you're attempting to sweep, but rather you hit Starmie on the switch with Thunder Wave - which means its about as useful as a shit on a stick. And, if you run kinesis, it'll never get a hit on you.

    Also, you can run a similar anti-chansey play like i had in my r/b team. Very successful, and very potent to an unprepared chansey spammer. The first thing to do is to run Zapdos over Starmie. Use Zapdos as a lure for Golem/Rhydon, then take it out of the equation. Then the next time you're poised for a sweep, chansey will most likely come in expecting to wall a stab thunderbolt. Toxic it on the switch, then go to your dragonite. Wrap it to prevent it running and watch gleefully as toxic takes its toll.
  7. Borat

    Borat

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    All RBY teams can be classified as offensive, should you never run Chansey then?

    Pokemon is not one and one.

    You'll end up thunderwaving Chansey. What do you do next? Stay in and eat a paralysis, or switch out? If you switch out, then what plans do you have the next time Chansey comes in? Keep switching out?

    Telekinesis doesn't kill chansey in the least. And should you mispredict, or land an fp when a physical sweeper comes in, well that's too bad.

    Running an anti-chansey team acknowledges the fact that Chansey is superior is nearly every regard. Ever run anti-zam? How stupid does does anti-zam sound?
  8. Smurf.

    Smurf.
    is a Past SPL Winner

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    Who in their right mind would para a chansey... herrdurr

    Kinesis isnt for chansey, it is for alakazam "counters" such as starmie

    And no, i'm not acknowleding chansey is superior, rather i'm simply pointing out how simple it is to play around Chansey's "walling" while keeping offensive momentum. Have you ever run anti-zam? of course you have, thats why you have CHANSEY. So how stupid do you sound, saying -Alakazam +Chansey ?
  9. Borat

    Borat

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    So you're suggesting to never Thunderwave with Alakazam?

    No one needs specific Alakazam counters. Once he's paralyzed, most physical sweepers don't really give a damn about him.

    Retrospect is covering up. Chansey is definitely up there, along with Tauros, as the top two most influential pokemon in RBY. Chansey single handedly shut down special sweepers. Regardless, Chansey is not anti-zam as much as it is anti-STARMIE. Look it up.
  10. Smurf.

    Smurf.
    is a Past SPL Winner

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    Ah as i suspected, an utterly nonsensical response, construing utter shit out of simple wording. Standard, predictable, players such as yourself who have teams featuring eggie, chansey and tauros are exactly the sorts who get shredded and dont know how to respond against innovative, unorthodox teams and styles.

    And so, to Poketrainerash, nice team but never fall into to trap of standardization. Try some innovative sets and styles. Contrary to moronic opinion, it is not a purely offensive metagame. A team that can quickly switch to semi-stall can win you a great many battles.

    Good luck with the team and all the best.
    :)

    Smurf.
  11. Borat

    Borat

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    Ironic. Anyway, hypocrisy doesn't lead you anywhere. You're saying you don't use Tauros? That's handicapping yourself in a world of delusional creativity. And attacking me will get you nowhere as far as reasoning goes. And I'm sure my reasoning is quite simple to understand:

    Alakazam active, opponent will switch to Chansey. What do you do? Psychic and switch? Thunderwave? But you would never thunderwave a chansey. Kinesis? Recover? It's not a matter of predictability as it is helplessness. If there's one thing you need to learn about the game is that at times, prediction is worthless. Prediction without improving your position to win is little more than a mere flaunt of skill, shit talking via prediction if you will, it matters none. And as far as running Alakazam goes, Chansey will fit the bill better 9 times out of 10. It's one thing to run Alakazam as a secondary Chansey, but another thing to replace Chansey with Alakazam. This is along the same lines as running Persian alongside Tauros versus Persian over Tauros.

    But you're totally right though, innovation is awesome. Alakazam is new and exciting and totally not standard at all.

    EDIT: The 1 time out of 10 revolving around your team benefiting from an active Chansey. Even then, you already have Starmie. I guess you could say Chansey is better than Alakazam 9 times out of 10, and the remaining 1 Starmie is better than Alakazam.
  12. Blitzkrieg7

    Blitzkrieg7

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    Alright, imma wade in on this debate chansey v alakazam, but am going to maintain a completely objective view.

    Chansey is just asking for trouble. Yeah Borat, despite your very apparant fetish for chansey and disdain for alakazam, face facts. Smurf. certainly has a point, and looking at his previous R/B/Y rmt, its is a perfect example of how chansey is predictable to the point of disbelief, and how others can easily fill the void of a sponge. OP you may wanna go there and take a look. Borat, you seem to be hypocritical, slamming Zam's use of T-Wave when chansey does the exact same. Zam can function extremely similarly to chansey, bar the obvious lack of hp. In addition, you propose to counter zam by paralyzing it with starmie - which in turn if paralysed is useless. You vastly underestimate the ability of alakazam as a dummy sweeper and lure.

    Smurf. despite this, i believe that you must conceed that some people would rather use a dedicated wall rather than one or two pseudo walls. I mean yeah, you can use mimic lapras to steal amnesia or recover, but that is rather situational on both the opposition's team as well as luck of the draw (while you can choose the move stolen in-game you cannot in competitive battles)
  13. Borat

    Borat

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    Hello, Chansey is indeed a sexual fiend in my eyes. You caught me. Pixelation masturbation is the new fad.

    Chansey is predictable, perhaps, but isn't Alakazam? Sure he can run counter/stoss, but can't Chansey? But chansey can also run Sing, can Alakazam?

    "Slamming Zam's use of T-Wave" conincides with the only real advantage Alakazam has over Chansey, speed. Hypocrisy? Not in the very least. Chansey doesn't need that speed [or have it for that matter]. But of course I realize you're talking about spreading paralysis, which I addressed over and over. In order for Alakazam to paralyze anything other than Chansey (which is doing her a favor really), he needs to accept being paralyzed in turn. And once that happens, he's not only giving up whatever "sweeping" potential he may have had, but you lose a lot of reliability in spreading said paralysis. Again, with a paralyzed zam, you're relying on 2-3 spc downs, along with a proper twave prediction, and avoiding an FP. Either way, odds are greatly against you. I'm just saying anything Alakazam can do, Chansey does better.

    I never said anything about countering alakazam with starmie. I've only mentioned starmie twice:

    1.
    Him: Chansey's purpose is to counter zam.
    Me: Chansey originally gained popularity as the only thing that could reliably stop Starmie, not Alakazam.

    2. The one thing alakazam does well is luring out Chansey. But as a result of point #1, Starmie is as good of a Chansey lure as Alakazam is, if not better.

    EDIT: And don't get me wrong, I'm totally open to your opinions. RBY isn't exactly my strong point as much as GSC is, but I do know the ins and outs of it. What I'm expressing are my own views on the topic of Alakazam, regardless of what has been previously thought by others. I draw the so called "Chansey > Alakazam" conclusion from my own experience, so it's totally up for debate.

    Creativity is not a valid argument, especially in the realms of OU. I'm all for creativity and being different, but when you're being creative for the sake of being creative (and that term used very loosely, using Alakazam isn't exactly being creative in RBY), not for the sake of being effective, that's limiting yourself unnecessarily. Different sets/pokemon that serve different purposes are awesome, but with Alakazam/Chansey, they serve essentially the same purpose. And Chansey is just better at accomplishing said purpose.
  14. SHUCKLE MAN

    SHUCKLE MAN

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    But Chansey can just switch out. Wrap in RBY, doesn't prevent the Pokemon from being able to switch. And to make matters worse, Toxic poison becomes normal poison if you switch out a Pokemon, as the game doesn't 'remember' that the poison was inflicted by Toxic, it just remembers that the Chansey is poisoned. And it gets more annoying when you've realized that you've essentially given Chansey a safeguard, as it now can't be put to sleep, paralyzed or frozen.

    Also, Chansey is by no means 'weak' offensively, having stronger attacks in the special spectrum than the likes of Venusaur, Mew and Starmie.
  15. poketrainerash

    poketrainerash

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    OK I'll weigh in my opinion. Borat, I agree with you that people tend to delude themselves with supposedly creative and innovative teams/ideas. It is like your article about GSC when people ran Curse-Ursaring.

    Putting Chansey in a RBY tournament is actually a good idea because of the huge usage of Alakazam. My only problem using Chansey in this team is that duplicating items (including TMs) is against the rules. As the common Chansey set includes Boltbeam which is already on Starmie, I can't really use him. The only moveset I can really put on him is...

    Chansey
    Counter
    Seismic Toss
    Softboiled
    Thunderwave

    This moveset doesn't take any advantage of Chansey's Special so I don't really want to use it. If anyone can come up with a better Chansey moveset without duplicating TMs, I would use Chansey.
  16. SHUCKLE MAN

    SHUCKLE MAN

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    Well, you could give Bllizzard to Starmie, and Ice Beam to Chansey. I believe that Blizzard has a higher accuracy in RBY, and also, freezing is very cool, as you never defrost, unless you get hit by a Fire-type attack, and nobody should be using Fire-types in RBY anyway, as you don't want to burn your opponents.
  17. poketrainerash

    poketrainerash

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    blizzard is already on Tauros unfortunately
  18. SHUCKLE MAN

    SHUCKLE MAN

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    Oh. Well I don't really have any other ideas. You should probably stick with Counter then, unless you want to try Mimic or something. You might be able to abuse that whole Counter/Hyper Beam thing.

    Also, you've duplicated Thunderbolt on Gengar and Starmie.
  19. poketrainerash

    poketrainerash

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    oh wow thanks for pointing that one out. I'll have to rearrange Gengar. Well thanks for the help
  20. waterwizard

    waterwizard

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    Firstly, Chansey should be present on every competitive OU team in RBY. She and Tauros are the most important players on the team, with Eggy being a close third.

    It is very common for players to attempt revenge kills with Starmie, but Chansey completely nullifies this. I laugh every time someone sends Starmie to do a Tauros' job. Chansey also completely walls Alakazam in early game, and forces non-DE Eggy to explode. Chansey also does at stalling Slowbro, or at least putting him in revenge kill range.

    Personally, my Chansey is even more important than Tauros. She faithfully fulfills her role as giant special sponge, and even takes down Tauros and Snorlax when needed. :)

    As for Alakazam, one is gravely mistaken if he doesn't consider Zam a sweeper. Naturally, this crazy, recovering, psychic pokemon is not always used as a sweeper; he has many uses. He is a) an anti lead, b) a special wall/stall, and c) a sweeper. Anyone who says Alakazam is not a sweeper has not played against Teh Icy, RedStorm, or SamTheDigital (aka StickyTopic).

    How could the pokemon with the best special attack and the best speed (barring BL Dugtrio & Jolteon) not be considered a sweeper? He can 2HKO Tauros, Golem, Rhydon, and Persian. He can sometimes 1HKO Gengar. Let's also consider his gigantic Critical Hit potential. With some luck, he can 1HKO the 5 above mentioned pokemon.

    It's wise not to forget that this guy can use reflect! Once he has that up, kiss your Tauros/Snorlax/Golem goodbye.

    Verily, with the proper mid-game prep (which is required for any pokemon to "sweep"), an unparalyzed Alakazam is one of the top three late game sweepers.
  21. SubSmokeX

    SubSmokeX

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    ^ You can use Alakazam instead of Chansey as your special wall. I agree you need one of them though.
  22. Borat

    Borat

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    What's with all the bumping of the old topics?

    An "unparalyzed" Alakazam late-game? Excuse me?

    We've already established that Alakazam must run at the sight of Chansey, a move which you can use to your advantage. However, let's consider one move before that. How would YOU get Alakazam active in the first place? Certainly, you wouldn't switch it into a physical attacker, so clearly a special attacker would be the answer. Now let's take a look at the top 6 special attackers: Chansey, Exeggutor, Starmie, Alakazam, Zapdos, Slowbro. Yep, all 6 pack paralysis.

    So unless Alakazam is to be absent for the entire battle, it's very unlikely that he'll remain unparalyzed throughout the match.

    Top three is definitely a stretch. Tauros is a unanimous winner. But then you have the likes of Rhydon, Dodrio, Persian, Snorlax, etc. And as far as late-game sweeping goes, wouldn't Starmie fall into the same, if not better boat should Chansey fall?
  23. waterwizard

    waterwizard

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    Well, one doesn't normally send out a late-game sweeper during mid-game (Zapdos!). That would be foolish. If you absolutely can't be patient, you can send out Alakazam after any of Gengar/Eggy/Golem die mid-game, and then revenge kill or bait Chansey.

    Alakazam is right up there with Persian and Starmie as top late-game sweepers. Persian is walled by Gengar, and defeated by Eggy, Zam, Tauros, Snorlax, surfing Starmie, and counter Chansey. She is also extremely fragile. I would say Alakazam edges it out for 3rd place sweeper as he is faster and stronger. Starmie would probably be called #2.

    It must be said that Alakazam is resisted by the other psychics in OU, limiting his sweeping potential slightly. But with the proper prep (again, necessary for anyone to sweep), he is nearly unstoppable late-game.

    Incidentally, I'm playing a sort of devil's advocate here, as I personally never use Alakazam (or Starmie, for that matter).
  24. Borat

    Borat

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    So none of what you said actually disputed my claim: Alakazam is an inferior Chansey/Starmie. A weaker alternative if you will.

    Persian doesn't lose to the any aforementioned (except maybe Gengar) under ideal conditions, the very same conditions Alakazam needs fulfilled. Your argument can ultimately be summed up as: Alakazam is an unstoppable sweeper when all opponents are low HP, Chansey/Starmie/Alakazam dead, all psychics low HP/dead, Alakazam himself isn't paralyzed.

    Okay, and? Replace "Alakazam" with "Butterfree" and you have a similarly true statement.
  25. waterwizard

    waterwizard

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    First, I did dispute your claim. I pointed out that Alakazam has better speed and special than Chansey/Starmie, making him a better sweeper. I've always agreed that Starmie and Chansey are better special walls.

    Next, Persian does lose to all the pokes I listed. Eggy, Snorlax, Tauros, and Alakazam all 2HKO her. She can't 2HKO them (except Zam, who outspeeds her). They win. And it's laughable that you say Persian is "maybe" beaten by Gengar. Persian can't do a thing except tickle Gengar with a couple weak Thunderbolts before she is KOd by his 358 special attacks. Your arguments look better if you don't make wild claims such as that Gengar isn't a total Persian wall.

    Finally, Alakazam doesn't need his opponents to have low HP to sweep. His stabbed 368 psychics do the trick (2HKOing many pokes, as aforementioned). Yes, you have to remove the special wall, but then, any sweeper needs someone removed first (Zappy -> Golem, Tauros -> Eggy, Persian -> Gengar, Starmie -> Chansey).

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