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Pokémon BW2 In-game Tier List Mark II [See Post #840]

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by SuperJOCKE, Oct 8, 2012.

  1. IOS

    IOS

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    True, but you'd also be ignoring Darm's self-destructive nature. Notice how Darm can't even survive two of its own Flare Blitz's and one hit from the enemy Throh. That's pretty damn bad. Meanwhile, Scraggy has ridiculous bulk; the complete opposite of Darm.

    You also talk about murdering anything that doesn't resist Fire...that's four different types that its completely ineffective against. Scraggy on the other hand has perfect coverage.

    I really see it as a toss-up.
  2. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    Darmanitan does not have a 'self-destructive nature' - that's an attribute of one single move which it may or may not be using. Fire Punch has 146 base power factoring in Sheer Force and STAB and is sure to OHKO those "weaker Pokemon" you were talking about, and Darmanitan's advantage over Scrafty is that it outspeeds said weaker Pokemon. When neither OHKO with Fire Punch and Hi Jump Kick/Crunch respectively, Darmanitan can more often than not boast being able to secure a OHKO with Flare Blitz. Recoil damage is compensated by the fact the enemy goes down in one turn, which saves time and whatever could follow from the opposition having a chance to attack (which Scrafty will continue to permit during most of its existence).

    What I'm saying is, Flare Blitz is not Darmanitan's only toy. Fire Punch is probably its primary STAB easily OHKOing anything weak to fire and good for hitting things neutrally, there's also Superpower/Hammer Arm for employing hit and run tactics, Zen Headbutt via tutor, Dig, Rock Slide, normal-type moves like Headbutt and Return. Zen Headbutt, Bulldoze and Rock Slide get noticeably stronger due to Sheer Force too, as if Darmanitan's base attack was not good enough.

    Even in the example you cited, Darmanitan could opt to attack with Fire Punch/Zen Headbutt instead. It's not somehow locked to using Flare Blitz alone. And it just might never need healing when it outspeeds most things and doesn't let them do a thing. Assuming you run a team of Pokemon (which you probably should with 5th gen exp system and Lucky Egg existing), Scrafty loses to Darmanitan not only in power and speed but also needing to stay in to make those Moxie boost(-s) worth something, which may or may not be advantageous due to type match-ups. The average teamsize also appears to be precisely two.
  3. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    I honestly don't see why Scrafty would be roughly equal to Darmanitan in any way: If Darmanitan is starting off with the power of +2 Scrafty, and the relative rarity of trainers in Unova having more than two Pokemon, then Scrafty literally lacks any form of damage advantage over Darmanitan.

    As for four different types its completely ineffective against, Dragon-types are virtually non-existent outside of Drayden, his lackeys, and Iris (and Ghetsis's Hydreigon but who gives a shit). Opposing fire-types can be easily removed with Rock Slide/Dig, Darmanitan obviously loses to water as much as Scrafty loses to Fighting, while Rock types (and Deino) can be settled with Hammer Arm/Superpower. The base difference in Attack is just too big for Scrafty to overcome immediately.

    Basically, for Scrafty to beat Darm in offense, without taking type matchups into account, he'll have to be Hi Jump Kicking every turn. Crunch is literally too weak (STAB Crunch is 120 in power... and Superpower is 120). Efficiently speaking, Darmanitan is leaps and bounds better than Scrafty.
  4. The Cicada

    The Cicada

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    anyone who thinks Darmanitans recoil is a legit argument needs to consider that the recoil doesnt matter since you can just use a hyper potion after the battle, and with Scrafty, if you dont want it outpaced and killed, needs to be recovered during battle.
  5. IOS

    IOS

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    Again, in that example he killed himself just trying to finish off Throh. He's going to be dying before the battle even ends. This keeps being brushed off for some reason, but its a pretty serious detriment. You can't just hand-wave it with "just hyper potion after" because he's literally dying in battle if another Pokemon gets a hit in.

    Not to mention how ridiculously inefficient it is to Hyper Potion after every single battle.

    Interesting you guys brought up Fire Punch. Against that Throh, Darmanitan does 75-88 damage. Barely doing better than +0 Scrafty. Since he's not OHKOing anything, he's going to get demolished with those terrible defenses. And of course Scrafty becomes the much better option after a kill.
  6. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    ...dafaq

    i'm sorry, but as far as I'm seeing it, nothing is absolutely stopping Darm from finishing off Throh with some other random move like strength or thrash or hammer arm

    Besides, notice how Throh is barely alive after eating a Flare Blitz. Anything frailer would actually save Darmanitan HP because he will not have to eat a counter attack, and this is actually quite probable because Throh is one of the bulkier Pokemon in Unova, with 120/85 physical bulk. Something frailer, like say, Gurdurr, would make a bigger difference.

    Lv40 Gurdurr (15 IV, 0 EV): 124 HP, 95 Atk, 79 Def, 43 Spd
    Lv40 Darmanitan (15 IVs, 30 EVs): 142 HP, 125 Atk, 57 Def, 89 Spd
    Lv40 Scrafty (15 IVs, 30 EVs): 110 HP, 85 Atk, 105 Def, 60 Spd

    Fire Punch Darm VS. Gurdurr: 74-87, clean 2hko, even with Charcoal
    Flare Blitz Darm VS. Gurdurr: 116-137, >50% chance of OHKO, 38-41 recoil, definite OHKO with Charcoal
    HJK Scrafty vs. Gurdurr: 66-78, clean 2hko
    WU Slap Gurdurr VS. Scrafty: 54-64, 2HKO with a small chance of 3HKO
    Rock Slide Gurdurr VS. Darm: 79-94, 2HKO with a small chance of 3HKO

    This is where we see the other element of Darmanitan's advantage over Scrafty: Darmanitan has access to Charcoal, Scrafty does not have access to Black Belt except for a random 5% nab off wild Sawk/Throh, neither of which exist until just before Victory Road. Scrafty will never be able to boost his best STAB, while Darmanitan can just repeatedly nuke the opponent with Flare Blitzes until dawn. In this case, Flare Blitz only eats up roughly 27% of his HP, so he only needs healing after three battles of Flare Blitz (and he could have been doing something else like say abusing Thrash or Hammer Arm or Zen Headbutt or whatever the hell he does).

    Darm > Scrafty. Very badly.
  7. IOS

    IOS

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    Alright, you've convinced me.

    So Darmanitan is good enough for top tier clearly, with Excadrill there as well (great move coverage as it is, and one Swords Dance results in a OHKO against literally everything in the game) but is it wrong for me to now question Magnezone's position in top now? He certainly doesn't have the offense to be OHKOing things left and right.
  8. ChaoticaMortis

    ChaoticaMortis

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    Magnezone has ridiculously high SpAtk, tons of useful resistances, is available almost at the start, solos a few of the gyms, and has Sturdy to always get at least one free hit in. It's easily a top-tier Pokemon.

    I also agree with Scrafty being top; by no means is it as good as Darm or Exca, but nonetheless it's still going to be plowing through most of the game.
  9. The Cicada

    The Cicada

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    Magnezone solos pretty much every gym other than Clay
  10. Scorpio

    Scorpio

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    So, what's anyone's opinion on Pidove? I'm planning to have it one one of my teams.
  11. Diatom

    Diatom An enigma
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    Here's a question: how on earth is Scraggy top when Sandile is in high? Let's list the pros of each:

    Sandile:
    Higher attack
    Higher speed
    Gets two 80 BP move (both Dig and Crunch) earlier than Scraggy gets one
    Better offensive typing
    Earlier evolution (to Krokorok)
    Better availability

    Scraggy
    Better defensive typing
    Better bulk

    Now, let's see how they do in major battles:
    Elesa: Sandile wins, Scraggy loses
    Clay: Krokorok beats 2/3 of his team, Scraggy beats 1/3
    Skyla: Krokorok wins, Scraggy loses
    Drayden: Krookodile wins, Scrafty loses due to low speed
    Marlon: Krookodile loses, Scrafty has an even matchup
    Colress: Krookodile and Scrafty both win
    Ghetsis: Both can take down some of his pokés, but lose to some others. Krookodile may sweep if it gets enough moxie boosts
    Shauntal: Krookodile wins, Scrafty loses due to speed issues
    Grimsley: Krookodile sweeps, Scrafty loses to opposing Krookodidle
    Caitlin: You both win
    Iris: Both can take down some pokés, but lose to others, Krookodile beating more than Scrafty

    I'm not exactly sure what Scraggy is doing in top while Sandile is in high. The two should be switched, IMO.
  12. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    Scraggy can't plow through the most of the game given that his initial offense without moxie is just barely mediocre. Team Plasma also has slightly better team diversity that doesn't scream "just murder me with HJK already" (although it still does).

    Mag is fine in Top imo: he has only 4 non-resists, 3 of which can be solved by just putting a water-type on your team, giving you great defensive synergy (Fighting and Ground aren't resisted by a Magnezone + Samurott/Azumarill core, though the latter may as well be a free win for the water-type). Coming very early, with a move that guarantees 2HKOs left and right, in an era without boosting crap like Swords Dance or strong shit like Flare Blitz. Gets two gyms to annihilate (Roxie, Skyla), Charge Beam to boost his excellent 130 SpA and act as a pseudo-Moxie for SpA, Thunder for excellent late-game offense and decent bulk too. The only bad spot in his level-up movepool is between ThunderShock and Electro Ball, and you get the Volt Switch TM to help cover it up. He can win battles that Scrafty cannot because of the resistances AND the good initial SpA, neither of which Scrafty possesses.
  13. rocky505

    rocky505

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    Um scraggy beats 2/3 of clay and krokorok only has the advantage of 1/3
  14. Phexar

    Phexar

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    I'm using it now, and I'd say it's probably Mid. It getting to start with STAB Frustration/Return in BW2 helps it immensely. Hits things pretty hard early on and things haven't changed for me, even up to to Opelucid City. Seems to reliably 2HKO things that aren't Rock, Steel or Ghost. It's bulk is average, and Roost helps keep it going. Unfezant is also reliably quick (slightly slower than Darmanitan).

    They're rare in Floccesy Ranch (5%) but much more plentiful in the outside area of Virbank Complex (35%) which is still quite early and gets plenty of time to build up Return to max power. It's a good idea to go for a Super Luck one and put a Scope Lens on it from Castelia City to improve the rate of those crits up to a 25% chance. It's problems are that it's movepool mostly consists of Return and Fly, but despite this I've found it to be quite a reliable bird and I'm enjoying it a lot, much more than when I used it in BW1. I can see it having issues with Marshal though, unless it spammed Featherdance/Roost or something.
  15. The Cicada

    The Cicada

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    gonna have to agree with this.
  16. IOS

    IOS

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    Diatom, that analysis was pretty much worthless, please put some effort into it next time because it is full of errors and thoughtless assumptions.
  17. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    I'm not exactly sure how you came up with this flawed list that is entirely biased for Sandile and against Scrafty. You obviously have not Scrafty at all, and for whatever reason, decided to hop on the "I hate Scrafty" train (which doesn't exactly exist). Scrafty has little trouble against Elesa and laughs at Clay and his Krook and Excadrill.
  18. Hollywood

    Hollywood time to pay!
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    Other Metas Leader

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    Everything said above. Krook is good. Scrafty is better. Plus you speak as though Shuckle would beat Scraggy in a footrace. His speed is not dreadful.
  19. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    Scrafty's speed is quite meh in BW2. 58 lets him outrun only rock/steel types and some other 'slow' Pokemon such as Muk, Cofagrigus and Ampharos. Give or take some speed EVs, he's pretty much going to outrun... uh... i dunno, Clefable?

    I won't deny that Scrafty is able to smash the opposition by itself, but the time he's going to do so with his 90 attack (compared to other stuff like Heracross who has much better speed, attack and combat options) makes it extremely inefficient. High is the best pantz can do :/
  20. Diatom

    Diatom An enigma
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    My Scrafty was outsped by a wild Garbodor. That's how bad his speed is. Note that I have indeed used Scrafty, and that it was, well, good but not great. Now, onto the gym leaders again.

    Elesa: Zebstrika 2HKOs you and is faster, while you only 3HKO back
    Clay: Excadrill outspeeds and 2HKOs, while you 2HKO in return. You won't be 2HKOing Sandslash anytime either without a moxie boost, which you will not get due to Krokorok's intimidate.
    Skyla: Scraggy or Scrafty and cannot break through Skarmory even with moxie boosts, and Swanna can only be beaten with moxie boosts, which you won't get due to Skarmory.
    Drayden: Scrafty loses to the lead Druddigon with Revenge OHKOing. Flygon just phases Scrafty with Dragon Tail, and Haxorus can do the same, while also doing a lot of damage.
    Marlon: Ok, Scrafty does sweep here, but so many things sweep Marlon that it doesn't really matter.
    Colress: You sweep here, I'll give Scrafty that, but so does pretty much any fire- or ground-type.
    Ghetsis: Cofagrigus has such high defense that even with Crunch you only 2HKO, and you're liable to get toxiced here, which severely limits your lifespan, especially when Eelektross (the only poke you outspeed besides the aforementioned coffin) isn't even OHKOd with a moxie boost. Bear in mind that the only poke you can OHKO without a moxie boost is Hydreigon, who will take a giant chunk out of your HP first. I don't see Scrafty winning here anytime soon, especially when Seismitoad and Toxicroak can hit you super-effectively.
    Shauntal: It may seem counterintuitive, but Scrafty does actually lose here. Cofagrigus isn't OHKOd and will just will-o-wisp you, not to mention mummy disables moxie. Drifblim outspeeds and OHKOs with Acrobatics, and Chandelure just outspeeds and either takes a giant chunk out of your HP or OHKOs, depending on your EVs, IVs, and level.
    Grimsley: Liepard is a joke, so I don't even count it as being beaten, as I can't think of a poke that doesn't. Anyways, Krookodile outspeeds and takes a huge chunk out of Scrafty's HP, not to mention that it has Intimidate.
    Caitlin: You can't OHKO Musharna, and it simply uses Yawn, forcing you out and losing that moxie boost. Without moxie, you don't OHKO Reuniclus, which OHKOs back with Focus Blast, and Sigilyph will destroy you no matter what.
    Marshal: Haha, don't even try.
    Iris: Hydreigon does huge damage before getting OHKOd, and Archeops simply OHKOs you. Haxorus can DD once in your face due to Focus Sash and proceed to sweep your entire team after OHKOing you unless you have something like Crobat. Druddigon also has Focus Blast to ruin your day if you don't have any moxie boosts.

    Let's also not forget that Scrafty has to rely on HJK, which will hurt you 1 out of 10 times if you aren't holding a Zoom Lens or Wide Lens, which makes it impossible to run a more useful item such as Blackglasses. Against regular trainers, Scrafty (and Scraggy of course) will find itself getting outsped quite often, and it doesn't do well against the poison-types of Team Plasma either.

    In short, I don't see how on earth this thing is in top.
  21. IOS

    IOS

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    Your assertions are like...all wrong dude.

    Lvl 29 Scraggy (15 IVs, 15 EVs, Docile): 73 HP, 53 Atk, 50 SpDef
    Lvl 30 Zebstrika (15 IVs, Docile): 89 HP, 57 Spatk, 47 Def

    Scraggy goes last, and therefore does 57-67 damage with Payback after one kill and 76-90 damage after two kills. At worst its a 2HKO.

    Zebstrika with Volt Switch does 30-36 damage. 3HKO. Even worse if it doesn't use Volt Switch.

    Lvl 32 Scraggy with HJK OHKOs Excadrill after one Moxie boost (132-156 damage vs 117 HP)

    Etc.

    I mean, I could go on, but it'd be pretty pointless. Moral of the story: trying to guess at how a Pokemon will do in a battle doesn't add anything to the discussion.
  22. inanimate blob

    inanimate blob

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    In my in-game run, Pidove proved itself to be quite the badass a few times. It's fast, and in this game, gets a strong Normal type move early on in Fristration/Return. The flying coverage does come a bit later, yes, but for me Pidove was able to evolve at about the right pace to keep up with my team without overpowering and being an Exp drain. It's also fast enough to outspeed and able to take one or two hits.
  23. The Cicada

    The Cicada

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    there seems to be too many people opposed to Scarfty being top tho. Everybody was in agreement with the others like magnemite and drilbur being there, without any arguments like we have with Scraggy
  24. IOS

    IOS

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    Yeah I conceded he's high, just didn't like that particular argument
  25. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    top mag was agreed on in the previous thread: sonicboom is very legit for offense early on that helps mag score cheap 2hkos on everything, thunder wave support helps other slower guys on your teams to win things easier (samurott, scrafty all don't really mind the support), slow volt switches can help bring in frail things easily (darm), and mag also has the offense to back up his support. also the obvious free wins against roxie and skyla

    p.s. op needs to be updated with mistralton cave :X

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