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Pokémon X & Y In-game Tier List Discussion

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Its_A_Random, Oct 21, 2013.

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  1. kefkakrazy

    kefkakrazy

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    All "baby" Pokemon do this too, since they are in the no eggs group until they evolve. Not many of them can be caught wild, though; the best examples are Tyrogue and Riolu, both of which can be caught wild and which are unbreedable until they evolve. All wild Tyrogue and Riolu have 3 perfect IVs too.

    Why, exactly, Nidorina and Nidoqueen are still unbreedable is a completely different question.
  2. Azelph

    Azelph

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    Has anyone else used/considered cubone?

    It's available early-ish in glittering cave. You can find one holding its signature item "thick club" quite easily if you hunt with a compound eyes user such as vivillon packing thief (obtainable in camphier town, which is a bit of a treck...)

    I found a thick club on my fourth cubone while leading with my vivillon (I was catching them, as I didn't have thief). I ended up getting a naughty one, which is decent I guess.

    With thick club the cubone line ends up with one of the highest attack stats in the game. It also has decent(ish) defenses when it evolves at level 28 into Marowak: 60/110/80. It's hp sort of let's it down, but it's workable for in game.

    On top of a monstrous attack (assuming thick club) it gets bonemerang at an early level. This gives it a pseudo-earthquake at level 21, destroying almost anything at that point in the game (and breaking annoying Sturdy pokes I guess). It is however 90 accuracy, and one of cubone's only moves worth boasting about for a while. I guess it also gets rock tomb and lolthrash.

    My Marowak had rock head, which was fairly useless until it got double edge in the fourties. Even then I almost never used it.

    As soon as my cubone got bonemerang it easily became one of my top 2 in-game pokes, maybe behind or tied with a surprisingly useful flareon and (mega)Ampharos.

    Assuming you have thick club, I'd put cubone in B.

    I'd put it higher, but there's the time-cost of finding thick club (it took me about 8-10 minutes, which is tedious). In addition it doesn't have great coverage; I think I faced the E4 with bonemerang (I couldn't find earthquake I guess), double edge, rock tomb, and aerial ace... It is also painfully slow, and will almost always take a hit, though it should be fine on the physical side. I imagine cubone fairs similarly to cranidos in DPP.

    Any thoughts? I'm aware this isn't a proper tier proposition, but I'm a bit new to smogon (this is my second day!) and am on my phone. Perhaps I'll do a proper write up when I'm home. It also just occurred to me that Marowak would have likely benefited greatly in my run with payback considering its speed...

    TL;DR - cubone (thick club) for B
    - cubone ( no thick club ) for D/E
  3. Mulan15262

    Mulan15262

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    Pokemon are not ranked based on whether or not you can get a specific item (like the discussion on Pikachu earlier), or any other things of that sort (like Huge Power vs. Thuick Fat Azurill or Male vs. Female Combee). The only time a pokemon would be ranked twice in different scenarios is based on trading ability (i.e. trade vs. no trade Abra).
  4. sickweare

    sickweare

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    I used Cubone in-game and my feelings were that it has a fantastic mid-game. It takes on Tyrunt, Korinna, and Clemont extremely well. Later on, its usefulness in gym battles fade, but it is fantastic against Team Flare, with a combo of ground moves and rock tomb coming off insanely high attack with thick club.

    I will write a better analysis of my experiences with it, but I think C-tier sounds good for Cubone.
  5. Azelph

    Azelph

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    Gotcha. I'm new to tiering so I wasn't quite sure. Sowwie! Well then assuming somebody is willing to bother finding thick club cubone I'd propose B. But without it, it's definitely useless. How heavily do we weight a probably 10-15 minute hunting time? I imagine it would be similar to finding a pokemon with a 5% encounter rate perhaps? It took me much less time to get thick club than it did to evolve sylveon using Amie.
  6. sickweare

    sickweare

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    Well it's actually really easy if you have a pokemon with Compoundeyes at the head (I believe) of your party. Found my thick club cubone on my first encounter.
  7. MicfiJasan

    MicfiJasan

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    I don't feel like making specific write-ups for these guys, but I did test some super late-game guys. I don't know if they can be any higher than C due to the fact they come so late, but some of them are somewhat useful.

    Skarmory - D/E-Tier
    Not enough attack to be super useful, and limited to Fly for offense. No real advantages in Elite Four bar Gourgeist.

    Druddigon - C/B-Tier
    It's got a great attack stat with an amazing movepool. It's speed is the only thing holding it down. Can work with most of Siebold and Malva, can break through many of Wikstrom guys with coverage. Only kinda struggles with Drasna, and that's only if he can't take the Dragon hit, since he can usually OHKO back. Diantha isn't great.

    Hydreigon - C/B-Tier
    This guy also has huge coverage on the other side. A lot of what can be said with Druddigon can be said for Hydreigon. I guess I was lucky in that I got him while looking for Skarmory, he might be harder to find. Zweilous is probably much worse too.

    Ironically, these were all partners for a Wonder Traded Dratini, and I only really had problems with Gardevoir for what it's worth.
  8. Anty

    Anty Kiss-My-Anthia
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    Haunter w/ trade (+mega) >>> A Rank.

    Moves: You get haunter just after the 5th gym, (i know it is late). Its starting movepool sucks, but instantly you can teach it thunderbolt and venoshock, as well as in a couple levels it gets shadow ball. After that you should trade it. Once you get into the next city, you can immediately get the gengarite, with venoshock. Once you beat the faries, you can teach it dazzling gleam. You can bye focus blast before the psychic gym and sludge bomb is before the ice gym

    Gyms: it can destroy the fairy gym with venoshock (be aware of psychics).
    The psychic dies of to shadow ball (also be aware of psychic).
    Ice gets hit very hard with focus blast, but it is easier to burn them.

    Team flare: Dazzling gleam wrecks most of them at pokeball factory and even at lysandre cafe.
    Agaisnt lasyndre, focus blast ohko'd pyroar, can dent mienshao, dazzling gleam/t bolt can ohko honchcrow (mine had +spatk nature) mega gyara gets 2hko'd by focus blast (if you mega'd, eq hurts)

    The set should bet: Shadow Ball / Sludge Bomb / Focus Blast or Thunder Bolt or Dazzling gleam. (use focus blast if you get the tm, i prefer tbolt>dazzling gleam, but tbolt hits more SE)

    Dazzling gleam + tbolt did enough to weaken yvetal.

    League: cant do much to fire.
    If you still have tbolt, you hit waters.
    If you have dazzling gleam, you hurt dragons
    If you have focus blast, you wreck steels. Sword gets hurt by shadow ball.

    Dazzling gleam/ tbolt hits halwucha
    Shadow ball hits gourgeist
    Dazzling gleam wont do too much to goodra though
    Focus blast destroys both tyruntrum and aurorus.
    Gardevoir gets ohko'd by shadow ball, assuming you didnt miss 2 focus blasts on arorus and let it settup dual screens >:(.

    I would vote for more, but you get it mid/late game so...
  9. tzheihoh

    tzheihoh

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    Is it really that much harder to catch him up with the rest of the team compared to other pokemon in S(namely Charmander)? If all you need is to level up twice and then trade getting it late should not really keep him out of S? If I understand correctly(and if I dont, could you explain? :)) getting a pokemon late does not really matter that much if the pokemon is on par with the team at that point.
  10. BlazeStarter

    BlazeStarter

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    For unknown reasons, I often choose the fire-type starter, with the exception of Black (2)/White (2). That has always been the case for me.
    Anyways, I love to use Delphox, and, because I keep Exp. Share on, always, I can get it before I get to Korrina. This is my main set for it:
    Moves: Flamethrower/Mystical Fire (level up, Mystical Fire pops up twice, at evolution and at high levels), Shadow Ball (can be learned from Heart Scales), Grass Knot (TM from Ramos), and Psychic/Psyshock (both learned by leveling up, Psychock is considered if I have few Physical moves).
    EVs: Set as many as possible for Defense. It's very low, and, at my state, can take plenty of physical hits. Sp. Defense isn't necessary, as a Psychic type, they have high base Sp. Def. Sp. Attack should be raised for more brutal hits, and Speed is invested into for coverage against those faster targets.
    Tier: S-A if used properly
    Availability: Starter Pokemon, easy
    Type: Fire/Psychic Has number of weaknesses, but quite a few can be countered. Rock and Dark can't be hit effectively with my move set.
    Stats: 79/69/72/114/100/104, totaling 534.
    Movepool: Relatively low, unfortunately for one of my favorites.
    Major Battles: With enough Sp. Atk. EVs, I've one-shot Wikstrom's Aegislash in Shield form. In battles with others, I've yet to do that.
    Other: Not much, but, strangely, Rain Dance can be learned. If you're using Water, and not counting on Delphox's fire, it's a possibility.

    For many Pokemon, I like 4 attack moves, with Aegislash as an exception. This is my main setup:
    Moves: King's Shield (signature move), Night Slash, Sacred Sword (Heart Scales), Iron Head (Heart Scale).
    EVs: Everything goes in Defense, Special Defense, and HP. In Blade Form, Defense switches for Attack, and same goes for the Special side. Speed is not worth it, since you want them to attack you while still in Shield form. Strategy is simple: Attack with any move, then use King's Shield to guard.
    Tier: A-B, strategy is needed for effectiveness
    Availability: Fairly early, Route 7 tall grass around the area. Can be fairly stubborn to find. In one game, I found it immediately. In another, it took me a couple days.
    Type: Unique Ghost/Steel, but weak to Ghost, Dark, Fire, and Ground. Only Fire and Ground types will be the main problem using my moveset.
    Stats: (Shield Form used, as it's the starting position) 60/50/150/50/150/60, altogether as 520.
    Movepool: Fairly diverse, with a number of types to consider.
    Major Battles: Used correctly, it's easy to defeat other Aegislash. Major battles is something I have to test.
    Other: Ability can't be altered, just as a quick note.

    I'll look through the other Pokemon I use in my high-level team, and add them later.
  11. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    A Pokemon that joins late has a limited time to contribute to your run; that's all.

    Pokemon in the wild are at a competent enough level when caught in this game; the only exception being horde encounters. If you play with a team of six and don't use Exp Share/Lucky Egg, your team will actually be underlevelled in relation to the wild mons (Repels won't help avoid them) so from that perspective there's no problem at all.

    There's also the argument towards the opposite - a Pokemon joining late (like RBY Zapdos or DPPt Azelf) has an advantage over most others because keeping a spot open for them lets the early-joiners share more exp among each other. What I don't like about this argument is that according to this logic an empty space is superior to a very powerful Pokemon (a la Lucario solo).
  12. Raikaria

    Raikaria

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    It is also worth mentioning there is a complete lack of favorable match-ups for [Mega]Gengar. There are a few Psychics [Olympia and M.Gardevoir] but those will OHKO you if you fail to OHKO them; due to your Poison typing.

    Meanwhile; Gengar is bad against Team Flare's Dark Types; and Wilkstrom.

    Favorable matchups go a long way to securing OHKO's and minimizing grind.

    I'm actually more inclined to say B; simply because it comes later and has no real 'good' matchups. [It won't have Poison STAB worth it's salt for Valerie; and even then Mawile's immune and Mr.Mime is part Psychic.]
  13. Korlashh

    Korlashh

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    Um....I'm not certain Mega Gengar needs "real 'good' matchups" when he has 170 base SpA and 130 base speed and STAB shadowball. It should be able to destroy Mr. Mime and Sylveon with Shadowball / Venoshock, respectively. Depending on your level, M.Gengar should be OHKO'ing Olympia's team with Shadowball except maybe slowking.

    Gengar is bad against Team Flare's Dark-types? You mean the 4x fairy-weak scrafties, wussy liepards, and flying Honchcrow? Gengar will sweep them up with Dazzling Gleam / Thunderbolt. Houndoom is a concern, as focus blast is the only way to OHKO it. The only Dark type that I think Gengar shouldn't face is Mega Gyarados (except to revenge-kill it).

    And I see Gengar being able to help against every E4 member, including Wilkstrom. I'm not certain he'll be able to OHKO anything Wilkstrom has (although maybe Scizor and Aegislash in blade forme), but it's a possibility when you remember that Ghost isn't resisted by steel anymore. Protect can be used against Aegislash since it's most likely to switch form and attempt shadow claw.

    A-tier for coming late is how I see it.
    Anty likes this.
  14. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    I don't remember Mega Gyarados with a Dark move, so Gengar could Thunderbolt-it
  15. Tomy

    Tomy

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    It has Earthquake. Gengar is immune to it but Mega-gengar is not, so Mega-evolving vs Lysandre isn't a easy choice.

    But yeah, I'm fine with Haunter being A-tier.
  16. Korlashh

    Korlashh

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    I don't recall it having a Dark move either, but I think it's still likely that Mega Gyara will OHKO it with a stab water move, being lvl 53 and all. Outrage is selected pretty often in my experience though.

    Mega-evolving can probably happen first turn since no one would expect the AI to use Earthquake while they see standard Gengar (maybe I'm wrong), but I'm pretty sure Mega-Gyarados can tank any hit from [mega] Gengar at least once.
  17. Its_A_Random

    Its_A_Random The imitated
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    I fail to see why a STAB Shadow Ball off a (usually) astronomical Sp. Attack will fail to OHKO any one of them tbh. You have a lot of speed, but I would not say that Psychics will cream it...

    I will probably propose some tierings for some mons within the next week at least... I have just been busy... -.-'
  18. cant say

    cant say no really I cant
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    All tiering is done assuming the exp share is turned off, otherwise all pokemon seem better than what they actually are...

    that was random...

    So I saw that Aegislash is in limbo at the moment. I've gotta say that it shouldn't be S at all, so A it is. Sure it's probably the best 'mon competitively at the moment, that doesn't translate into it's in-game performance. It's too slow and requires too much set up to be a top tier 'mon for me. You really only have swords dance + ghost move for most of the game. I tried gyro ball but it didn't hit hard enough and didn't have enough pp. If you want it's best moves then you have to either hold out until level 51 or dish out some heart scales. Aegislash's playstyle doesn't suit an efficient run through either. King's Sheild + Swords Dance/Weakness Policy works sweet on the Battle Spot but not running between towns / taking down criminals.. He's slow so he's taking damage pretty often, if that happens to be in blade form then its probably a ko. If you wanna kill stuff before they kill you either need swords dance + shadow sneak, but you probably want his signature move as well so that means you only have 1 other attack. Autotomize + 3 attacks I found was the better option for in-game, but even with 150 base attack, un-boosted moves sometimes fell short and Aegis would quickly fall due to his 60-50-50 bulk.. So anyway Aegis needs to get healed pretty often (read: after every battle) to stay effective. He also doesn't really sweep any gyms. He can wall Korrina and sweep Olympia but that's it really. Doesn't contribute much in the E4 either. So overall he is a solid pokemon but doesn't clean out the game like an S rank mon should.

    tl;dr: Aegislash is good but not S-rank good. A Tier for me
  19. DHR-107

    DHR-107 Robot from the Future
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    Would you agree that Doublade is different enough to warrant a different tier? I never evolved mine and I am very glad I didn't, Aegis would of annoyed the hell out of me. Doublade is still A regardless of Aegis imo. Eviolite just blocked everything, yes youre slow but you just wreck stuff.

    It's definitely one of the best Pokemon in the game to use in my opinion.

    I'm just outside of Yveltals room on my current game (Where I have had to put XP share back on), but even so my Mons are barely even with the opponents and sort of struggling. Chesnaught is... Okay? B/C I guess, solid but not outstanding. His movepool is decent (Ive had to teach him Low Sweep) but he just seems kinda meh. Butterfree isnt as good as Vivillon, still OK but just not as good (C maybe). Malamar is kinda meh too...C/D for that thing, contrary superpower is hilarious, but it takes a looooong time to get there to actually be able to use it. Blastoise with mega isnt even as strong as I'd like, defensively its excellent, but it lacks sheer ooomph I'd expect from a mega. Dodrio is still wrecking face, I'd probably say high B/A tier imo. He's ridiculously strong.

    I think there seems to only be a select few who are S/A and most are sort of B/C area imo. Which I think is fine, with so many Pokemon available its going to be a vert fat tier list :O
  20. cant say

    cant say no really I cant
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    DHR-107 yeah I have to agree that Doublade is better than Aegis in-game, but not so much that it should be S tier. I held onto Doublade until about Wulfric (first playthrough was blind so didn't pick up the Dusk Stone) and regretted pretty quickly. Doublade is super bulky with eviolite which I loved! And can also run 3 attacks + boosting move of choice. But yeah at the same time it's mega slow and only really has the physical defence to survive, while Aegi has both (if only in shield form). Aegis can also go mixed if you want.. You also get hit every time by everything because of No Guard (such a pointless ability on him). So yeah it's kinda weird, they both play very differently but I see them both in A (no way is Aegis going down to B) so may as well combine the entries..

    EDIT: gotta agree on what you said about M-Blastoise. I had to over-level mine just to do enough damage. His end-game was great but everything before that stunk. I'm torn between B/C
    DHR-107 likes this.
  21. cinderkitteh

    cinderkitteh

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    Clauncher/Clawitzer: - C Tier (X only)

    upload_2014-1-28_10-38-20.jpeg



    Availability: X Exclusive. Can be found by fishing with Good Rod in Ambrette Town, Route 8, and Cyllage City. Easily hooked by rod. However, the Good Rod is located in Coumarine City, so one has to backtrack to the places it is found to catch it.
    Stats: Clauncher has lackluster stats, but when it evolves it gets a fantastic base 120 Special Attack to use. Its evolution also has decent Defenses. Its speed, however, is slow at less than base 60.
    Typing: Water typing is great for team Flare and it only has two weaknesses in Electric and Grass.
    Movepool: Amazing movepool by level up. Clawitzer gets Water Pulse, Aura Sphere, Dark Pulse, and Dragon Pulse to use with its ability powering them up further. Also learns Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, Sludge Bomb, and Flash Cannon by TM. Great Special movepool with the SpA to use it. However, to obtain a lot of these moves at an optimum time in the game, the move reminder is needed.
    Major Battles: Clauncher/Clawitzer's flaws are very apparent here. It comes after the 3rd gym, since the Good Rod is only obtained in Coumarine City.

    Ramos: It is destroyed by every single one of his pokemon. Do not use.

    Clemont: If you're very lucky, you could have a Clawitzer by now, but it is still destroyed in this gym.

    Valerie: Should be a Clawitzer by now. You still have a shallow movepool since there's not access to the move reminder yet, but water hits all her pokemon neutral so it should cause some damage. However, Mr. Mime and Sylveon have pretty high Special Defense so they sponge your attacks most of the time.

    Olympia: You should have access to the move reminder now, so Clawitzer can do great in this gym with Dark Pulse. Slowking is kind of tanky, but it can go down after a few Dark Pulses.

    Wulfric: It can use Aura Sphere here to some extent, but it will get hurt badly if Abomasnow hits it with Grass moves. This gym is generally handled better by other pokes.

    Malva: Super effective STAB, super effective STAB everywhere... Clawitzer eats her team alive.

    Drasna: If Clawitzer has Dragon Pulse or Ice Beam, it can be of some help here, otherwise it's not that great.

    Wikstrom: It does okay here with Aura Sphere, but it will have to take a lot of hits.

    Siebold: Neutral hits, bar Aura Sphere on Barbaracle and Dark Pulse on Starmie, make Clawitzer pretty lackluster here.

    Diantha: Destroys her Aurorus with Aura Sphere, Tyrantrum and Gourgeist can be taken out with the right coverage move, but Goodra is a royal pain and Mega Gardevoir isn't much more fun. Hawlucha is neutral.

    Lysandre: Pyroar is taken out pretty easily. Honchkrow and Gyarados can be taken out if you have the right coverage moves (Ice Beam and Aura Sphere respectively).


    Additional Comments: LATE evolution at level 37 and it is in the slow experience group. Despite its amazing movepool and SpA, I found its performance to be pretty bad until later in the game, so it should be a C tiered mon.
  22. Eievui-Nymphia

    Eievui-Nymphia

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    Player Lv 50 Gengar vs level 53 Mega Gyarados. 15 IV for the two opponents, neutral nature, no EVs for Lysandre, 40 EV for the player and the result is
    0 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 40 HP / 40 Def Gengar: 180-214 (136.3 - 162.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  23. Jesterhead

    Jesterhead

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    Just finished my run-through and will be sharing thoughts on Jolteon and Gengar in more detail, but long story short, Gengar is A, Jolteon is C/D. I'm gonna do one more run-through with Delphox/Vaporeon/Aerodactyl/Lucario/Venesaur/Garchomp and see how that goes. I predict Vaporeon will be B/C, Aerodactyl will be S, and Garchomp will be A/B.
  24. cant say

    cant say no really I cant
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    Jesterhead I haven't used it yet but I really don't think Aerodactyl will be S.. Just from looking at his movepool and matchups it just doesn't look like he'd clean out the game enought to be included with the best. I'm trying to figure out who I want to use on my next run through so I might go with him so I can actually weigh in properly..
  25. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    Aerodactyl does have some of the best matchups from my experience playing with him. He also has the strongest STAB Fly in his mega form, making him the safest way to battle the countless battle belts who are consistently the toughest opponents around from gym 2 until the end of the game.

    My main concern about Aero going to S-tier is the difficulty of finding Old Amber.
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