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Pokemon RBY In-game Tiers - Mark II

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Mekkah, Jul 21, 2012.

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  1. Naix

    Naix

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    [​IMG]
    -Vaporeon - High Tier
    -Availability: Given to you in Celadon City at level 25. You need a Water Stone to evolve Eevee into this.
    -Stats: Vaporeon has one of the best stat spreads for in-game use. While its Speed might seem mediocre, it's actually just enough for it to outspeed most of the in-game threats and OHKO them, thanks to its more than adequate Special. If it gets outsped, or if the opponent survives a hit, it won't be taking much damage thanks to its massive HP.
    -Movepool: BubbleBeam and Ice Beam (via TMs 11 and 13, respectively) are all it gets in terms of moves when you get it, but that's really all it needs. When you get to Fuchsia, you can teach it Surf as well, but it is recommended that keep Bubblebeam. It also learns Ice Beam by TM and Aurora Beam by level-up (note: it only learns Aurora Beam in Yellow), allowing you to deal with the Bird Keepers without wasting Bubblebeam's or Surf's PP. Keep in mind that BubbleBeam and Ice Beam are both exclusive TMs, and as such Vaporeon might have competition with your other team members. Another thing of note is it's bulky enough to utilize the Rest/Poke Flute combination for (somewhat) reliable recovery.
    -Power: From the moment you get it and teach it Bubblebeam, Vaporeon performs excellently against most of its adversaries. In fact, it can take out the Celadon Grunts by itself if you're willing to teach it Ice Beam and use a few Super Potions. After that, Vappy should be caught up with the rest of your team. Unfortunately, the Ghost-types of Lavender Tower are faster than Vaporeon, but it can still do adequately, provided you don't get confused and paralyzed at the same time. From then on, Vaporeon does quite well against most of the remaining trainers, save for the abundant Swimmers late-game.
    -Type: Unlike most other Water-types, Vaporeon doesn't have a second type or a move that hurts fellow Water-types effectively, meaning it can't really do much between Fuchsia and Cinnabar.
    -Match-ups: Generally, Vaporeon's high HP and Special allow it to perform adequately against the Gym Leaders and Elite Four.
    Lt. Surge: If you choose to fight him right after obtaining Vaporeon, don't expect a victory from it, as his Raichu does around half with Thunderbolt, and you have to defeat his Voltorb (which knows Sonicboom) and Pikachu before fighting it. In Yellow, Raichu is his only Pokemon, but its "possible 2HKO" gets bumped up to a "solid 2HKO". In other words, don't use Vaporeon against him, at least not without prior training.
    Erika: Her Victreebel/Weepinbell happens to know Razor Leaf, which is almost guaranteed to KO in one hit. However, it is also OHKOed by Ice Beam, so whether Vaporeon or Victreebel comes out alive depends on who's faster. Tangela is more easily beaten, regardless of which game you're playing. Vileplume/Gloom knows Petal Dance, and Vileplume in particular can stomach an Ice Beam. Did I forget to mention Tangela is the only Pokemon of hers that doesn't know Sleep Powder?
    Koga: Much more managable than above, thanks to the neutral type match-up, and the fact that his Pokemon have shabby Special. In Yellow, he has 3 Venonats and a Venomoth, all of which are at least level 44 and know status-inducing moves.
    Sabrina: Her Pokemon, for the most part, are faster than Vaporeon, but Vappy's great special bulk will allow it to take a few Psychics, along with high HP allowing it to take (seemingly) minimal damage from Psywave. Unfortunately, it can't do too much back, thanks to their high Special. It can still beat at least one of her Pokemon by itself.
    Blaine: Literally, the only thing on his team that's actually threatening is Rapidash, and that's only if it spams Fire Spin for about 25 turns.
    Giovanni: Provided Dugtrio doesn't spam Sand Attack, you're good to go. In Yellow, his Persian can leave a mark with Slash, and his Nidos know Thunder, but he's still not too threatening.
    Lorelei: Don't expect much to come from this fight, as they resist each other's STABs.
    Bruno: His Onix are merely speed bumps, and the Hitmons have seemingly no Special. Vaporeon also has enough bulk to take a Hi Jump Kick or Submission if need be, and if it does get hit by Submission, Machamp will lose a chunk of its HP on recoil alone.
    Agatha: About her Ghost-types: think of them similarly to Sabrina's Kadabra and Alakazam, except with the threat of status instead of STAB Psychic. Also, the first Gengar knows Mega Drain in Yellow. Aside from that, she's pretty mild.
    Lance: All of his Pokemon, barring Gyarados, are OHKOed by Ice Beam, and his Aerodactyl can even be dealt with by Bubblebeam. Vappy also has the bulk to take a non-crit Hyper Beam, but it can't do much to Gyara, and Dragonite knows Thunder (Yellow only) and outspeeds it. Another thing to watch out for is his second Dragonair, as it knows Thunderbolt.
    Blue: In Red and Blue, the only ones on his team Vappy shouldn't take on by itself would be Alakazam, Venusaur, and possibly Gyarados. In Yellow, it has a bit more trouble, as Ninetales and Cloyster can continuously trap it with Fire Spin and Clamp, respectively. Also, it is recommended not to have Vaporeon fight Magneton or Jolteon, for obvious reasons.
    -Additional comments: From the moment you get it, Vaporeon is a great Pokemon, thanks to its barely-high-enough Speed, high Special, and great endurance. It doesn't even need grinding, thanks to Team Rocket, and it only has 2 problems: While it's effective when fighting most of the Pokemon in the game, it can't really do much to other Water-types not named Gyarados. It's also greatly dependent on BubbleBeam in order to be useful before Fuschia.
  2. Mekkah

    Mekkah watashi wa kirai every single one of you kisamas
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    I'll update with all these write-ups when I get home from work today. From what I see though, a few nitpicks:

    Mr. Mime: "Be careful" is not good advice. How do you need to be careful? "Ha" is not a good way to describe a match-up. "Tier: High; if you can't trade Abra, you might as well use this." is confusing because Mr. Mime is obtained in a trade. Make it "if you can't evolve your Kadabra through trading, you might as well use this". Also pay attention to the format in the OP. "Stats that are really good" is also not very descriptive.

    Grimer: looks good, it kind of reads like you didn't really use it since it has a lot of stat theory crafting, but I imagine it's somewhat accurate. Would still like to see it tested.

    Caterpie: Can be a candidate for Mid, I think? Sleep Powder and Psychic attacks are really nice, but then again it does have a bit of a rough start.

    Rattata: Absolutely needs mentioning of the Water Gun and Bubblebeam TMs. They let Rattata pick on Hikers and Cubones and everything, it's really nice. I also think this thing is Mid tier, STAB Hyper Fang lets it contribute all game long even if it's just taking on generics. It's a step above Butterfree, imo.

    Vaporeon seems fine.
  3. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    I once used Caterpie in-game and had a solid experience with it. My Butterfree even surprisingly stayed relevant in the Elite 4. Swept Bruno (Psychic moves for the fighters, Mega Drain for Onix) and swept Agatha (she kept on switching when I kept hitting her with Psychic moves).

    Actually, I think I will use Caterpie in my current Yellow run.
  4. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

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    Yeah this I why I said it was somewhat borderline in its tier placement, but I had to assign just one tier and I chose low. Butterfree definitely has attributes and it does ok against many regular trainers I guess (most of the pokemon have awful movepools), but I have used it several times in Yellow and... I'm just not convinced. I just never find myself thinking everytime I used it: 'gee I'm sure glad I have this on my team' and I just don't find the things it brings to the table as things that are absolutely essential to beating the game efficiently. Sure I could put that pokemon to sleep, but why bother when I can just send in a teammate and kill it more quickly? Sleep will help with catching pokemon, but it isn't something that I feel is needed to complete the game quickly and the fact that it is weak to all 3 legendary birds is such a turn off to using it as a sleeper for the purposes of making them easier to catch (obviously it helps a bit with catching regular pokemon too but it's not like most of those pokemon have such low catch rates that sleep is even needed to catch them).

    However, I'm ok for it to go mid if everyone else disagrees. I'll admit some of those match-ups are a bit 'theorymon' because I usually preferred to use a team mate (because, you know, it's faster) so I honestly don't know for sure how it will go. Also, screw Agatha she never seems to switch against me :(

    But yeah Hemp Man, give it a go and see what you think. I'm probably being a bit harsh on Butterfree but I guess I was trying to be conservative.
  5. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    I'm thinking Weedle/Beedrill could go up. Bug-type moves are super-effective against poisons in this gen, so that's 4x effective against the common grass/poisons and nearly everything in Erika's gym.

    It also learns Agility and Swords Dance. When up against Sabrina in Yellow, use Agility once then tear through everything with Twineedle. Far more reliable than most others strats you can think of.

    You're also agreeing upon Psychic-type's exceptional value, which I assume has more to do with the poison-type being everywhere than 30% likely special falls or absence of dark/steel types and ghost moves.
  6. Garud

    Garud

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    But that's exactly the point. Psychic gives amazing coverage. Nothing in the game resists it aside from other Psychics. So help you if you are weak to it as well, as most of the pokemon that pack Psychic are dangerous (Alakazam, Exeggutor, Starmie). Psychic-types are so broken in RBY that being one is an outright advantage. Of the 2 moves in the game that they are weak to, one is on Beedrill, and the other is on Jolteon. And it's worth noting that they aren't exactly accurate reliable moves.

    And Beedrill is definitely low. It has some good points, but aside from Rocks and Waters what doesn't beat Erika? And also, it does not beat Sabrina just because it has STAB Supereffective twin-needle. You have to remember, all of her pokemon carry Psychic-type moves (3 of which have STAB on it). The pokemon you would need to use Agility on would be Kadabra who has STAB Psybeam and Psychic (and will use it because the computer is programmed to use Supereffective moves). Let me put it this way, Kadabra will be faster than Beedrill. Remembering Beedrill's Special is terrible, and Kadabra's is awesome, and knowing Kadabra is likely to crit, at what opportunity will Beedrill get to use Agility? For this to work, Beedrill has to be significantly overlevelled.

    You have to remember that Beedrill is weak to so many types. Flying, Fire, Rock, Psychic, and these types are everywhere. He is only resistant to Grass (who isn't?) and Fighting (no offensive presence). Keeping that in mind, his frailty combined with his lack of any decent moves means that even if he is getting an Agility off, he won't be doing much but poking whatever comes his way.
  7. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    Something like Kadabra can't be completely safe when a slight breeze does heavy damage to it. It's still got good special bulk in this generation, but physical moves are something it doesn't want to see in its direction. It's true that not being hit super-effectively ever (or almost anyway) is a pro, but you're still taking damaging if you fail to OHKO, and pure Psychics don't have the best coverage to always guarantee OHKOs. Does Kadabra want to face Lapras or Dragonite for example? Not really. I think Abra's at the top of the highest tier due to it being organised alphabetically though, I do doubt it would stand before all others otherwise.

    Gary's Exeggutor never knows Psychic in any version of the game, I believe, and without it, the best it can do is spam Hypnosis or Sleep Powder. Still tough to take down, but it just sits there, really.

    Sabrina leads with Abra (no offensive moves) in the Yellow version of the game, which I did cite in my post as an occasional where Beedrill could shine. Grab the Swords Dance TM in Silph Co, learn Agility at lv. 35 (more than realistic for Sabrina) and use each once while Abra's trying to Teleport or use Flash or whatever. Twineedle is super-effective against Venomoth (another Pokemon Sabrina uses in Yellow), too. Sabrina is a hard enough gym leader (hardest I'd argue) making Beedrill's contribution there pretty significant.

    Sure, you won't be using Beedrill against Blaine's fire-types (the Psychic-types it does outspeed it should OHKO) but you needn't use every single Pokemon against everything, and if you are doing that, then you should be sufficiently overlevelled to not care about type disadvantages any longer. The rock-types barely have STABs in this game, but those who do can be taken out with Mega Drain (which shouldn't be competed for too stiffly). Again, not that you're require to fight everything with Beedrill. A contribution against Sabrina is significant in that it has to be the single most difficult gym leader in the game, and what Beedrill offers there is something very few can replicate. I'd argue that much is worth being in the mid tier with other mediocrities.

    And it's great against all the rockets with their poison-types and Drowzees/Hypnos of course.
  8. 2sly4u

    2sly4u

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    I tested him out, I just like to back up what I'm saying with stats. I'll clean up the analysis later if it sounds too much like thoerymon.
  9. Garud

    Garud

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    I was speaking in response to your comment about Beedrill, this has nothing to do with Lapras or Dragonite. I know they are frail and the like, but Beedrill still can't take them because he will be immediately hit with a SE move. In Yellow? He's got more of a chance, yes, but it's still not great. Simply put, the accuracy drops from Flash will mean that his already inaccurate Twin-needle/Pin Missile will have around a 60% chance to hit (and that's assuming 1 Flash, it could go lower if you Agility/SD one more time). This means that when it comes time to take on Kadabra/Alakazam, you are very unlikely to hit, and will be hit with Psychic in response. Even worse for Beedrill is that they are all level 50, meaning they are bulkier and more likely to survive. So in RB he has no chance, and in Yellow he has a slight chance.

    Abra is the top of the Top-tiers both alphabetically and in actuality. The only pokemon you get earlier is Squirtle and the Nidorans, and each of them have small points in the game where they are troubled. Abra, once he gets around to being Alakazam at around level 20, begins to wreck other gyms. He's far more powerful than others, and while he gets type advantage in some circumstances, he's one of the very few that need it.

    The order of the top Tier is Abra, Squirtle, Nidorans, Diglett, Zapdos, Articuno. All of them top and deserving of their positions, but Abra edges them out over slight issues.
  10. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    Rewriting Omanyte
    aka the lololol entry

    Omanyte - High Tier
    Availability:
    Technically available as soon as Surf is obtained, which is after Koga is beaten. However, Erika/Koga/Sabrina/Blaine can be beaten in any order (the only condition being Koga beaten before Blaine because Surf). Generally though, it is obtained before Blaine.
    Stats: Monstrous Defense and Special, bad Speed, average HP and irrelevant Atk. Omanyte has higher Special than Blastoise, serving to show how amazing it is.
    Movepool: Gets Surf instantly, Blizzard (which is great in RBY due to 90% accuracy) is found in Pokemon Mansion. Those two can literally carry Omanyte throughout the game.
    Power: Possesses great bulk on both ends of the spectrum and really is only let down by bad speed.
    Type: His weaknesses aren't really relevant when you get him except for Ground (Giovanni), Fighting (limited to... Bruno's Hitmonlee, Machamp is outsped and killed) and Venusaur/Exeggutor (Champion). He doesn't learn any Rock attacks but it's not really relevant because Blizzard destroys flying types, Surf destroys Fire types and Omastar doesn't have any business to be out against Lorelei.
    Matchups:
    Erika: While you most likely will not have Omanyte before facing her, it is still possible. Anyway, Omanyte even with Blizzard has no business in this gym.
    Sabrina: While you most likely will not have Omanyte before facing her, it is still possible. Omanyte doesn't hit anything hard here and Alakazam's crit hit rate may destroy it.
    Blaine: Surf virtually OHKOes everything.
    Giovanni: Surf OHKOs everything except Persian in Yellow who can't do anything back. Nidos in Yellow possess Thunder/Earthquake/Double Kick, while Dugtrio outruns, has a monstrous crit rate and hence may OHKO with EQ.
    Lorelei: Omastar doesn't really have business facing her. He can't really deal decent damage.
    Bruno: Omastar destroys his Onixes and Hitmonchan, but Hitmonlee and Machamp may outrun/survive a Surf and attack back.
    Agatha: Her lead Gengar in RB has Mega Drain, but aside from that not really much of a threat.
    Lance: Take care of Thunderbolt Dragonair and Thunder Dragonite in Yellow, and Gyarados in both, and Omastar has a field day here. RB Lance is basically trivialised thanks to Omastar resisting everything.
    Blue: Only RB Venusaur/Yellow Jolteon is even a threat. Exeggutor mysteriously doesn't carry even Mega Drain.
    AC: Omanyte hits hard from the get-go and has immediate access to useful moves. He also gets a gym to destroy, if anything.
  11. Dre89

    Dre89

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    Having more special than blastoise isn't anything of note seeing as blastoise's special isn't that good. In fact half of the waters have more special than him, and the ones that don't have higher attack apart from slowbro, but slowbro is a much better pokemon than blastoise anyway.

    Also, kadabra is still better than mr.mime. Both are frail, so hitting harder and being faster outweighs the extra bulk that mime has. The only other thing mime has over bra is tbolt, but it's not worth wasting it on mime.

    Also, butterfree isn't that good mid-late game aside from catching pokemon. Sleep is all it has, and sleepers don't justify party slots unless they can hit very hard or boost stats, neither of which free can do (unless you give it double-team, which comes late in the game).
  12. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    Hypno is very good. I have never traded Kadabra, so I won't talk about Alakazam, but Kadabra and Hypno looks the same except than one is bulkier, one is faster. Hypno has Hypnosis and Kadabra has Psybeam.

    Bulk or Speed(&Crit). It's your choice.

    (And Abra is a pain to train, not Drowzee, but that's no so revelant).

    Suggesting Hypno as High at least.



    I've tested Machamp (but I didn't find any Cubone in the Tower ... So I've waited Safari zone ...), and he's very good with Karate Chop, Low Kick & Dig (last move was useless). Machamp levels fasts, does nice damage, but low speed and special hurt ... and he was kind of useless in the Elite 4 against all TR battles and Koga, Sabrina, Erika ... :( So, it stays in his tier ....

    I played on Emulator with 8x speed, I hope it doesn't matter ... ?
  13. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Koga has Venomoth in Yellow. Sabrina has Abra / Kadabra / Alakazam.

    I wonder why Gamefreak just didn't make it Mr. Mime/Hypno/Alakazam as her team?

    Here's the biggest problem with your theory though: Beedrill isn't in Yellow.
  14. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    Rosters in yellow are really weird :)

    Koga having 4 veno with 1 evolved :(
  15. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    Yeah, good job spotting that... No Beedrill facing Sabrina possible then. Still good for rockets, Erika and Koga.

    I wouldn't be so quick to assume that at all. Kadabra has only one single powerful move (with just 10 PP), it doesn't take hits too well, it's absent for a little while until the third gym or so, it even has a first tier form when it can't fight for itself at all. There's a whole lot of fields where Kadabra simply doesn't exceed the rest of the tier.

    That's true enough, only Seaking and Kingler and a couple others are behind Blastoise in special. Blastoise definitely beats Slowbro though, being available much earlier and not going second every battle.

    And I'd say Mr. Mime is one of the best candidates for Thunderbolt if you do train him, though it is true that the competition for that one is high.
  16. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    Ok I'm fine with moving Rattata to Mid tier (though admitedly somewhat low mid tier). It is surprisingly effective with that speedy Hyper Fang. However I can say from experience that Water Gun is underwhelming, and you'll usually want to save Bubblebeam for something with an actual special stat. Hyper Fang will outdamage Fire and Ground types, with only rock types being even worth considering using it against, and after Rock Tunnel said Pokemon become really uncommon. Still I will mention them. I've also just rediscovered that Raticate can learn dig (guess I never taught it mine simply because that TM is in such high demand) which greatly improves its usefulness.

    Updated additon (open)

    -Rattata - Mid Tier
    -Availability: Obtainable on the very first route in all versions and is exceedingly common and easy to catch. Will likely be one of the first two Pokemon you catch.
    -Stats: Only Speed is above average, with the others ranging from average (Attack) to outright terrible (Special).
    -Movepool: Get's all sorts of cool TMs but since they're almost all Special attacks they're pretty much useless. Hyper Fang is accessed at a very low level though and is very powerful at that point in the game. STAB Quick attack is very useful for picking off weakened foes. Gets STAB on Double-Edge if you want more power, but the recoil will hurt. Water Gun and Bubblebeam have some utility against Rock types, but are frequently better spent on other Pokemon since Raticate has piss poor special. But then again, what else are you going to teach Raticate? Raticate can make good use of Dig too, assuming you can spare it.
    -Power: Rattata starts off strong, becomes a liability before evolving, get's strong again after evolving before slowly petering off. However, Raticate's decent Attack and High speed can actually prove surprisingly effective late game, making Raticate a good choice for quickly striking fast but frail threats such as Kadabra and Jynx.
    -Type: It's a Normal-Type, what more is there to say? Complete lack of coverage outside of normal type moves bites.
    -Match-ups:
    Brock- Will be out-damaged even if you try Tail Whip shenanigans.
    Misty- Can handle Staryu fine but Starmie creams just about everything at that level unless it has a resistance and Rattata is no exception.
    Lt. Surge - His weaker Pokemon are actually beaten fairly handily, but Raichu will eat Raticate for breakfast. Give him Dig and it's another story though.
    Erika - Raticate's low special means he'll probably get his ass handed to him, especially if he gets paralyzed.
    Sabrina - Surprisingly actually one of the best options for her, able to move faster and hit hard enough to KO her weaker Pokemon. Can't take a hit from them though, so if it doesn't OHKO it'll probably go down.
    Koga - His Pokemon are just too bulky and Raticate is just too frail. Even with Dig something else is probably a better option, though with it Raticate will do in a pinch
    Blaine - Fares very well if you give it Dig, but less well if you don't have it. Will take lots of damage from Fire Blast, beware.
    Giovanni - Might stand a chance against Dugtrio and Persian, but the others have too much bulk for Raticate to beat reliably. Again, having Dig gives Raticate a much bigger chance against them.
    Lorelei - Might handle Jynx, but low Special and the bulk of her Pokemon means he won't last long.
    Bruno - Oh god no. Don't even think of it. I suppose you could Bubblebeam his Onix?
    Agatha - Well Arbok and Golbat shouldn't be too rough. Raticate can't really scratch her ghost types without Dig, but with it might actually be a good choice.
    Lance - Same issue as Lorelei, too much bulk on their side and not enough on Raticate's.
    Blue - Might be able to beat Pidgeot and MAYBE Alakazam, but the rest are all risky propositions due to their bulk and power. Again, Dig will give it more usefulness against some such as Jolteon and Arcanine, but remember Raticate likely won't survive the counter-attack.
  17. breh

    breh
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    Ok, I've edited the description for Mr. Mime a bit.

    Show Hide
  18. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Honestly I think at this point Yellow should just have a different list than RB at this point.
  19. Not Jacky

    Not Jacky

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    A nitpick: The Squirtle analysis suggests to beat Misty's Staryu and lose to her Starmie to get enough experience to beat Starmie, but as long as Wartortle has Bite it beats Starmie as it can only use Tackle or Bubblebeam and doesn't have Recover.

    I also agree that Hypno should be High or even Top tier, as it has a combination of a good typing, stats, availability, and level-up movepool.

    Also, Pikachu is much worse in Yellow than in RB, because it can't evolve.
  20. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    Wartortle having Bite is insignificant because Bite is normal type in RBY so its not SE on Starmie.
  21. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados

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    "Not super effective" is very different from "not very effective." Bite is still a very powerful early-game attack that can easily deal with Misty's Starmie. It is definitely not insignificant.
  22. Garud

    Garud

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    I guess they made it that way because in the Anime, Sabrina only had Abra (which just kept evolving throughout the episode).
  23. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    I remember that, those two were my favourite episodes as a kid.

    So, I gotta ask, what exactly decides the difference between High and Top Tier? I'm assuming Mid Tier is something that is Hit and Miss throughout the game, where as Low Tier is something that is mostly Miss throughout the game. But what deviates Top and High Tier?
  24. Naix

    Naix

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    I'm not exactly sure, but I think it goes something like "Top is for those who singlehandedly crush every trainer in their path, with very few moments where they don't. High is for those who are lacking in a few areas, but are still quite good otherwise. Middle is for those who do okay, but not amazingly. Low is for those who are either severely outclassed by the Top/High/Middle tiered Pokes, or just aren't good to begin with." Again, I'm not entirely sure, so please don't quote me on that.

    On a different note, I think I'll play through Yellow again, so if any of you guys have any ideas of who to use, I'll most likely use it. I've already decided that I'll be using Nidoran (F), Oddish, and (probably) Machamp. My only request is that you don't suggest anything that isn't being/hasn't been tested in this thread.
  25. Mekkah

    Mekkah watashi wa kirai every single one of you kisamas
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    Updated up to this point, including Hemp Man's redos of Charmander and Bulbasaur. They weren't the most detailed, but at least they didn't claim Razor Leaf was NVE on Gyarados.

    For those of you wanting a seperate Yellow tier list, that would mean every single comment about Yellow in the current entries needs to be filtered out, and a new tier list would have to be made with new entries even for Pokemon that really don't change at all (eg Rattata). That sounds like an awful lot of work to me that I really don't feel like doing.
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