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Pokemon RBY In-game Tiers - Mark II

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Mekkah, Jul 21, 2012.

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  1. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    One mistake I made:

    "-Giovanni: Razor Leaf destroys Rhyhorn/Rhydon/Dugtrio, and does well enough"

    Should say "...does well enough against Nidoking/Nidoqueen"
  2. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    -Tauros - Mid/Low(?) Tier
    -Availability: Tauros is available rather late in Fuchsia's Safari Zone, and is difficult to catch, having a low encounter rate and an equally low catch rate, which is quite a problem for Safari Zone. It's also slightly underlevelled when it's first available - a problem that can be fixed by having Tauros battle the Silph Co rockets for example - but Tauros's availability is a serious impediment to the player as, unless one gets lucky, Tauros costs more time than it could reasonably safe with its contributions. For what it's worth, Safari Zone is a location visiting which is compulsory for progressing the storyline, but blessed luck is still a must to catch Tauros in a timely manner.
    -Stats: Tauros is a monster offensively and defensively, capable of outspeeding a lot of the fastest Pokemon with a slight level lead, hitting hard with a high crit ratio of 21,5% and taking physical hits nicely with its high defence. Its special stat is only average on the other hand (the only gen where it has a good special attack), but it can count on its sheer offensive power to combat specialists before they are of any danger.
    -Movepool: Natural learnset is a problem for many Pokemon in the first generation and Tauros is no exception, probably packing only Tackle and Stomp when it first joins, and then learns Tail Whip, Leer (talk about redundant), Rage, Take Down. STAB Stomp should be more than enough to deal with most trainers you face, but you will have to give Tauros highly competed TMs such as Body Slam, Double-Edge and Earthquake. RBY is also the first and only generation where Tauros can deal decent damage with Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Blizzard or Thunderbolt, but there are better candidates for these moves. Doesn't get Surf in this gen, so it can't take a powerful special move for free, which is a shame. Also doesn't get Dig, surprisingly.
    -Power: Assuming a good investment in experience and TMs, Tauros boasts highly competent attack and speed letting it sweep through enemies without necessarily hitting effectively.
    -Type: Having a normal-type STAB and actually good offensive stats to go with it is invaluable, with Magnemites still being purely electric-type. Being normal-type also means being weak only to fighting-type moves, which are underrepresented in RBY. Needs Earthquake to hit ghosts, though. Doesn't resist anything besides Lick.
    -Match-ups:
    Erika (assuming you skipped her earlier) - Victreebel's Razor Leaf and Vileplume's Petal Dance hit hard and both are capable of sleeping and paralysing you. Given a high enough level, Tauros can OHKO with Body Slam, or it could get lucky with a crit, but it's nevertheless not the most reliable Pokemon for the task. RB Tangela runs only Bind and Constrict, so all she can do is waste your time a bit.
    Koga - Assuming you visited Silph Co first, Earthquake can take care of the Pokemon here. Tauros should take a Sludge or two just fine if it doesn't OHKO. Koffing family's high defence don't make Tauros an attractive choice without EQ however. In Yellow, Venonat and Venomoth aren't any threat at all; you could even Stomp them or something.
    Blaine - Fire Spin can be annoying if you don't OHKO. Earthquake is highly useful here, and in a match-up like Tauros vs. Arcanine, the levels and whether somebody gets a crit decide the winner.
    Sabrina - Tauros is a worthwhile investment as the opposition here consists of glass-cannons, so a high-levelled Tauros with Body Slam and/or Double-Edge can OHKO the frail specialists that otherwise hit quite hard. In RB, the strongest move Alakazam and Venomoth have is Psybeam though, Mr Mime having Confusion, leaving the Kadabra lead as the sole proud Psychic wielder. Hopefully you go first and OHKO him with Stomp.
    Giovanni - In RB, Giovanni forgot to give any decent STAB to all of his Pokemon besides Dugtrio. With Earthquake or Ice Beam/Blizzard, Tauros is a good choice for this gym. It's immune to Fissure/Horn Drill thanks to its high speed. In Yellow, nearly everything is given a good STAB move and the Nidofamily comes with Thunder, so Tauros is a little less safe if it fails to secure OHKOs.
    Lorelei - the water-types here have good bulk and the movesets are vastly different depending on the version. RB Slowbro can only attack with Water Gun, while the Yellow one runs Psychic and Surf in addition to Withdraw and Amnesia. Thunderbolt, if you taught it to Tauros, won't be too destructive unless you crit, so if you wanted to sweep the whole thing with Tauros, you'd probably take an X Attack when up against the trivial Dewgong lead, and sweep with Body Slam/Double-Edge from there. It's best if you leave it to your electric though and just let Tauros take out Jynx.
    Bruno - Watch out for Hi Jump Kick and Machamp's Submission in both versions. Hitmonlee is too frail and dies easily should you take him on with Tauros. The rest pose no offensive threat whatsoever, but you should abstain from facing Onix unless you have Ice Beam/Blizzard.
    Agatha - the Gengars are very annoying. Hopefully you outspeed and Earthquake them all. Use your Poke Flute if you get slept. Arbok and Golbat shouldn't be any problem to you.
    Lance - if you did teach Tauros Ice Beam/Blizzard or Thunderbolt, there are two 4x weaknesses to these here that you could exploit. Tauros takes Hyper Beams well, and could use its STAB for hitting everybody besides Aerodactyl neutrally if you didn't teach it any special moves.
    Rival - He doesn't kid around this time, with his starter, Pidgeot and Alakazam now running their strongest STAB. Pidgeot shouldn't be too much of a threat and hopefully you can outspeed Alakazam and KO it first. Rhydon, Arcanine and Exeggutor are a joke however, with laughable movesets, and it's safe to switch Tauros in against any of those. If playing Yellow, better avoid Sandslash and Vaporeon (good bulk and can really hit back) and focus on the fire/electric mons.
    Additional comments: Tauros takes a lot of time (real, not on cartridge) to catch and needs TMs to work, but if you're lucky with his capture and make the appropriate investment, he can really carry your team. Top tier combat impeded noticeably by hurting the efficiency of your run.
  3. Mekkah

    Mekkah OH yum-my sau-ces
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    Really sceptical on Tauros for Mid. Taking just one valuable TM for good combat is already enough to go from Top to High, usually, and that's for mons with good availability. Then in comes Tauros who joins underleveled and has absolutely no moves to speak of by himself, and he's being granted Ice Beam/Blizzard, Thunderbolt, Earthquake, and his favourite Normal moves? Why is this worth staying in the Safari Zone for ages for a luck-based catch?

    He's the best in competitive play, but I think he's pretty bad in-game. That 21% crit ratio is a nice bonus, but not reliable at all.

    Also any comments about GSC should be removed, they're just not relevant at all.
  4. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    Think it should be Low then? Its performance is really powerful even in-game compared to everything else in that tier, and if even if you absolutely insist that it doesn't get a single TM, it still does better than all of them (besides maybe Lapras) with just that Stomp it starts with. I really don't see why you'd deprive Tauros of Double-Edge if you do decide to use him.

    Difficulty of capture is a concern I sure, but aren't we being selective by picking on Tauros for using TMs? Its learnset is comparable to Zapdos (who lacks a decent, accurate electric STAB) and the Nidorans (who just have Thrash and Body Slam without STAB for it). You need to go quite a bit out of your way to catch Zapdos, too, though as long as you have that Master Ball in your pocket, it's at least reliable that you catch it in a few minutes. Still seems like Mid material to me personally, because the pay-off is big. It doesn't really require the special moves to work, but I don't see why it wouldn't get Double-Edge when it is capable of doing such great things with it, and you get both D-E and EQ later than you get Tauros so it's a great candidate for both.

    Its base level is 26-28 in Safari Zone in R/B iirc (in Yellow it comes at a lower level but is seen more common in the wild), not such a disaster at all, and with Stomp it's perfectly capable to fight for itself against the rockets and the trainers around that point of the game, getting itself in good form for the gym leaders. Though it's not the same Tauros it is in competitive play, it's no Lilina either.

    And I removed the mention of GSC. Should I avoid mentioning what is peculiar of gen 1 Tauros in particular too?
  5. Naix

    Naix

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    Hey guys, I'm going to play through Yellow, so if there's anything you'd like me to use and give my opinion on, go on ahead and suggest them. I know that I'll use Nidoran (F), Oddish, and Machamp, leaving 3 spots open for suggestions. My only request is that you don't suggest anything that's obviously bad (Kangaskhan, Paras) or anything that would cause a severe type redundancy. Thank you.
    EDIT: Keep in mind that I'm probably only going to make a few notes on how the Pokemon I used did and suggest where they would be tiered. I'm not necessarily going to do any submissions on what I used. With the likely exception of Machamp.
  6. chicobo329

    chicobo329

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    I haven't really seen Pidgey, Spearow, or Kabuto done yet. Kabuto would be interesting in Yellow since it oddly adds several TMs to its learnset, some of which might be useful (Submission, Seismic Toss, Swords Dance, etc.).
  7. Not Jacky

    Not Jacky

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    Spearow's done, and it's at the bottom of high tier. Anyone who wants to do the Pidgey analysis (it's really surprising that it's not done yet, actually) needs to keep in mind that Wing Attack is at a paltry 35 base power in RBY.
  8. chicobo329

    chicobo329

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    My apologies, I forgot to look up Spearow. I could do a playthrough myself, but I wouldn't be able to start right away (maybe this or next weekend at the earliest). But yes, Wing Attack sucks in Gen I! Thankfully Fly is around to fix that.
  9. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    I just used a Pidgey (through Pidgeott) through my entire Blue Nuzlocke (beat it last night) so I can give a good RB based analysis. I won't bother with Yellow match-ups, seeing as I lost my Yellow many years ago and remember shit about it.

    I'm writing it up right now so no one ninja me got it?

    -Pidgey - Low Tier
    -Availability: Immediately available as soon as you can catch Pokemon on the very first route, and is very easy to catch. Likely will be among the very first Pokemon you obtain.
    -Stats: The Pidgeot line is an example of extreme mediocrity when it comes to stats All of them are middle of the road with speed being slightly higher than average and Special being slight lower.
    -Movepool: Pidgeot's level-up movepool is sorely lacking in powerful attacks, and requires TM and HM support to become useful, and even then remains quite limited, with only Normal and Flying type moves available. Worse, no Flying type STAB move is available until either HM 02 Fly is obtained (recommended) or Wing Attack is learned at level 31 (not recommended since it really blows in generation I). This is due to Gust being Normal Type in Generation I. However, most of the most beneficial TMs for Pidgeot such as Take Down, Reflect, and Fly are easily obtainable once the player reaches Celadon City.
    -Power: Pidgeot is quite average in both attacking and defensive strengths. The length of time one must wait for a Flying Type STAB greatly reduces Pidgeot's effectiveness early game however. Once the moves are obtained though Pidgeot can hold its own against most foes.
    -Type: Flying Type is quite useful early game... shame Pidgey doesn't get any flying moves until Celadon City, rendering this advantage moot. Once you do get Fly though, Pidgeot makes a rather effective substitute for a Fire type, since the selection available is quite slim unless you chose Charmander as a starter.
    -Match-ups:
    Brock - Very little chance, though if you're in a real bind Pidgey can use Sand Attack to increase your chances of success
    Misty - Staryu won't provide Pidgeotto with any challenge, but Starmie will prove a very great challenge due to its much higher special and Bubblebeam
    Lt. Surge - Since his Voltorb has no electric moves Pidgeotto can handle it, but Pikachu and Raichu will probably destroy you.
    Erika - Status is annoying, but if you can keep Pidgeotto alive and have taught it Fly before the fight, Pidgeotto should absolutely demolish Erika.
    Koga - Due to the high defensive stats of Koga's Pokemon Pidgeot isn't a very good choice for this battle, and is all to likely to get taken out by Self-Destruct
    Sabrina - Hitting quickly and fairly hard on the physical side, Pidgeot can actually stand a fair chance here. Does not take their attacks particularly well though, but better than some at least.
    Blaine - Average at best, and must look out for random burns. While not a terrible choice, you probably have better Pokemon for the job at this point.
    Giovanni - Matches fairly well against his Pokemon without Rock Typing, but very poorly against those that do.
    Lorelei - They all carry Ice type attacks except for Slowbro and are too bulky for Pidgeot to OHKO, with the possibel exception of Jynx. Best to stay out of this one.
    Bruno - Matches up very well against his fighting types, but very poorly against his Onix. Don't worry too much about Ice and Thunder punch from Hitmonchan; coming off his special they're laughably weak.
    Agatha - Fares as well as anything does that doesn't hit them super-effectively. Simply be on top of any status inflicted on Pidgeot and you should be fine, though the battle will be longer than if you used a psychic or ground type.
    Lance - Matches up pretty poorly against most of his team, though might stand up to his Dragonair should it be required.
    Rival - Works well against Exeggutor and Venusaur, but distinctly less well against the rest of his team, who all hit too hard and are not OHKO'd by Pidgeot.
    Additional comments: Not sure on the tier to be mid or low. While Pidgeot is quite severely outclassed by Fearow, it's not a bad Pokemon and I have brought it to the end of the game several times without regrets. It just doesn't stand out.
  10. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    Pidgey should be low in my opinion. Its stats aren't completely horrible but that level-up movepool is just atrocious (Quick Attack is literally its best attack - note that Wing Attack is as strong as Tackle in gen 1 for those who are unaware what Jimera0 meant by saying that Wing Attack blows). Its whole movepool will be Fly and a normal attack (Double-Edge probably). Both of its best moves have drawbacks (Fly takes up more time by being a two-turn attack plus it can miss, and Double-Edge and Take Down both cause recoil which means more time-consuming trips to the Pokemon Centre). It has no real utility moves in its movepool besides Fly. Pidgey is an acceptible choice for normal runs but Pidgey is honestly only good as a Fly slave for efficient runs. Make it low.
  11. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    Tauros doesn't HAVE to take a TM for STAB... you can teach it Strength if you're desperate.
  12. Dre89

    Dre89

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    Pidgey should be mid in my opinion. It's good early game due to its availability, and normal stab is good ealy game despite Brock being the first gym leader. Mid to late game it starts to fade, but sand-attack is useful for troublesome match ups. Fly's two turn nature isn't really a problem in-game since the opponent is unlikely to switch out. It's only really a problem if pidgey has a damaging status like poison or burn.
  13. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    No, you misunderstood what I meant about Fly taking 2 turns to execute. The reason that it is an issue is simply because it takes more time to use. If it misses (and it will occasionally), that becomes 4 turns. You might think that it is too unlikely to miss to worry about, but Pidgeot will be using Fly quite a bit because its other STAB moves deal recoil making them too risky to spam repeatedly (go ahead and try, but off you go back to the pokemon centre if you do). It will happen eventually, and it is an annoying waste of time.

    Don't even start with Sand Attack. That is not an efficient way to play this game, just as the Toxic + Leech Seed combo wasn't when it was bought up in the last thread. Just kill the pokemon and stop fooling around with silly accuracy reductions.

    Pidgey is good early game, but so is pretty much everything else that you can get early game. Therefore, for an early game pokemon to be worthwhile it needs to have something else that will differentiate it from the other stuff it is competing for a team slot with (and early STAB Normal moves aren't doing this). Pidgey does not have anything. Spearow has more power and Drill Peck, the Nidos are simply amazing, the starters are all more useful and for longer, and even Rattata is better because of early Hyper Fang and its wider movepool in general.

    As I said, Pidgey can work for normal playthroughs, but for efficient playthroughs it is a terrible choice that is good for nothing else except as a Fly slave, and even then you are better off with Spearow, Doduo, Zapdos, Articuno, Moltres (maybe) and even RB Fartfetch'd (who has worse stats but doubles as a Cut slave). All of those pokemon provide something else along with Fly, but Pidgey doesn't (besides early availability over all flyers except Spearow but that isn't enough). Pidgey is low.
  14. Dre89

    Dre89

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    I only mentioned sand attack for troublesome match ups. Sand attack can help when you don't have a level or type advantage (and not just for pidgey, it can make switching in another pokemon easier).

    Yeah ok there are other pokemon better than pidgey that are available at the same time, but then if the tier list is considering comparisons to other pokemon then in RB bulbasaur is top tier and everything else is low. Soloing the game with saur is the most efficient way to run through the game, and stopping to do anything else other than catch HM slaves is comprimising efficiency.

    That would also make nidoqueen one of the least efficient pokemon in the game. Queen is outclassed by king, and has the same availability, so there would be no reason to use queen at all. There's no species clause either, so if you wanted more than one nido, you can just catch more kings. In reality queen is a good pokemon, but when you're comparing its efficiency with other options, it is made completely redundant, which drastically alters its position on the tier list.
  15. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    Nidoqueen learns Body Slam, not Nidoking ! She's different ;) and Pidgey is really low, that's all. No good stab attacked until Celadon is bad. Really bad. When it become less horrible (around Celadon), you should already have a Fearow, or capture a Doduo ... Even Farfetch'd is better with Cut ...
  16. Progeusz

    Progeusz

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    Ok, let's get this clear. Is being outclassed by something else important for tier? What are your opinions on this matter?
    IMO it should have no value as an argument.
  17. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    I should probably clarify that I don't think Pidgey is Low because it is worse than other things (although I can see how you may have interpreted it the other way given what I said so sorry). I think it is Low because it has only one reason for usage (in my opinion): Fly. As a battler it isn't efficient at all (as I said, mediocre stats, poor level-up movepool and TM/HM moves that have significant drawbacks that harm efficiency).

    The only reason I bought up other pokemon was because I was just trying to demonstrate that Pidgey's niches are not particularly special, and that simply being available early and having Fly does not instantly make you a good efficient choice for a playthrough, but I agree that pokemon should probably be looked at on their own merits (which in my opinion still leaves it in Low).

    Also, Dre89 that Nidoqueen example isn't particularly good. Nidoqueen would still be one of the most efficient choices in the game even with comparisons (even if it is worse than Nidoking it is still better than almost everything else). What if you find Female Nidoran first through luck? I would just stick with it because the advantages of using Nidoking aren't even worth looking for longer for a Male Nidoran (if I did that would compromise efficiency). Even with comparisons, Nidoqueen doesn't become instantly useless as you seem to think it would.

    EDIT: I think I should add that although I believe that we should ultimately tier things based on their own attributes, I still think that comparing pokemon to each other can still help decide cases where it could go either way. Jimera0 could not decide between mid and low for Pidgey, so I think asking ourselves the question "does this pokemon have attributes that would put it at a similar level to pokemon that are considered mid tier?" is helpful in borderline cases like this. If we decide it doesn't, then surely that says something about its prospects about getting into mid tier itself, doesn't it? Currently we have Clefairy, Drowzee, Electabuzz, Geodude, Meowth, Magikarp, Oddish, Pikachu, Rattata and Tentacool in mid. Is Pidgey as useful as these pokemon as editions to a team when it comes to completing the game efficiently? Normally this should be irrelevent but as I said, Pidgey is a borderline pokemon so...
  18. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    I believe Mekkah stated that everything faces competition from everything, so it's not only Nidoqueen that takes 'King's Moon Stone and the early TMs, but the other way around too. We can't just assume you're using Nidoking period, and all the options have to be weighed up for their own worth.

    King might be preferable to Queen due to a slightly better stat distribution (and running out of PP less quickly thanks to Thrash), but the difference isn't huge (fixed by a few levels), and who knows, maybe somebody has a specific example where Nidoqueen's extra bulk keeps her alive where Nidoking would be going down.
  19. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    I suspect pretty strongly that my Nidoqueen would've died at two points during my Nuzlocke had it been a Nidoqueen due to her bulk, so there you go.

    Anyway, I think I've decided that Pidgey is Low tier, the arguments for it are more convincing than the ones against. Pidgey isn't a bad Pokemon but it is extremely inefficient, I agree. The fact that Pidgeot is one of my old favorites doesn't change that, so Low it is.

    EDIT: Oh and I'm still saying Hypno is High tier, nothing has changed my mind about THAT
  20. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    There are 2 Moon Stones in the Mt Moon, so no competition between King/Queen .. And you can split among them the TM :)
  21. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    You could say they're still competing for the 2nd Moon Stone with Clefairy (or God forbid, Jigglypuff).

    And I'd say Pidgey is efficient enough (available early, caught easily etc.) but just doesn't pay off. Compared to folks like Porygon, Aerodactyl, Chansey (probably also Tauros for whom I wrote up an entry yesterday) who are impeded by the effort to either catch them or get them into good shape, Pidgey just doesn't have a good shape.
  22. Garud

    Garud

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    Agree with Jimera0 about both Hypno and Pidgey. Hypno is great, it just suffers from poor stat spread and outclassing.

    Also, I know people are saying that we shouldn't be considering other Pokemon in each of their analysis but we really should. In fact, by definition Pokemon is a relational game, a Pokemon is useful based on how it stacks up against other Pokemon. Why is Jolteon better than Raichu? Why is Gyarados better than Seaking? Why is Nidoking better than Arbok? Sure, some Pokemon all do well at various areas because they all share a type advantage, but those things that they have in common are because they have an advantageous relationship over other Pokemon. So it is important to note that if there are better alternatives to be used, a Pokemon should be aligned in a tier according to those alternatives.

    Remember, these pokemon don't exist in a vacuum, they all have different attributes, arrive at different times and do very different things.
  23. dinosaurdan

    dinosaurdan

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    doing a playthrough with Blue, using Seel definitely, any other suggestions?
  24. Naix

    Naix

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    How about Nidoran (F) and Meowth?
  25. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    Ok this will be my last word on Pidgey, since I don't want to drag this out any further, but I wanted to explain some of my philosophy behind how I decide tiers.

    Firstly, I'm of the opinion that early availability doesn't mean anything unless the pokemon is worth something in the long run. This is the case in pretty much every pokemon game. For example, in DP both Starly and Bidoof are high tier because not only are they available early, they contribute something meaningful to your team that aids efficiency greatly. Starly has a great movepool and stats, making it a great battler that also doubles as a Fly slave (and Defog I guess but you don't need that). Bidoof is a poor battler but it evolves into one of the best HM slaves in the game. Compare that to something like BW Patrat, who is available very early but is mostly worthless in the end, making it Low tier. Liekwise, RBY Pidgey, for reasons I've already given, just isn't a worthwhile choice in the long run if you are playing for efficiency, hence making it Low in my eyes.

    Secondly, I think we can all agree that this game is incredibly easy. It is very possible to simply pick 1 pokemon and solo the entire game with it. In the end, pretty much everything in the game can be ay least 'decent' if you willing to train them, with the possible exception of Ditto. Therefore, I think that when we decide tiers then we need to make our standards a bit higher than we might if we are playing a different game. If we are willing to put things like Pidgey into Mid, then you might as well just have Ditto in Low and everything else at least Mid, which would make our list look simply stupid.

    So yeah, those 2 things might give an insight into why I went with Low for Pidgey in the first place. In the end it's Mekkah's call though.
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