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Pokemon RBY In-game Tiers - Mark II
- Thread starter Mekkah
- Start date
- Status
Flareon only has a better physical movepool by level up and it's really just restricted to Normal moves (even with TMs). Machamp has a much more diverse TM movepool with stuff like Earthquake and Rock Slide and Dig, even though these are highly contested TMs.
Yeah, but Flareon came right before Erika at a high level of 25, where as Machamp came later at a lower level. So so far Flareon is performing better. But hey, I'm only half way through, we'll see how things turn out.
Edit: Just beat Koga, and Flareon fared better than Machamp because the Venonats had Psychic. Pikachu is just as useless, Butterfree is starting to lag, and Dugtrio is still holding strong.
Edit: Just beat Koga, and Flareon fared better than Machamp because the Venonats had Psychic. Pikachu is just as useless, Butterfree is starting to lag, and Dugtrio is still holding strong.
Did you try Submission Machamp? The accuracy is meh but it's definitely a decent power increase from Low Kick. It's only 3000 dollars at Celadon and you definitely should have the money to purchase it.
1.) I wasn't aware that I could get Submission at Celadon, I was waiting until Victory Road to get it, but now I will go to Celadon. That being said, Fighting isn't a good STAB to have in-game anyway.
2.) I have Strength, Dig, and Low Kick. I would give him Rock Slide but that already went to Dugtrio. I don't think Rock Slide would have that much of a difference.
2.) I have Strength, Dig, and Low Kick. I would give him Rock Slide but that already went to Dugtrio. I don't think Rock Slide would have that much of a difference.
Sorry to double post, but I just beat the Elite 4 with a team of Zapdos, Dugtrio, Omaster, Flareon, Machamp, and Butterfree. I agree with where Zapdos, Dugtrio, Omaster, and Butterfree are placed.
The first page says Machop is top in Yellow, which I HIGHLY disagree with. I'll go more detail with this tomorrow
Also, Flareon was surprisingly awesome when I got it. But after about the 7th gym, it really started to lose value. So maybe low tiers it is for him, but I'm still going to rewrite that analysis on there.
The first page says Machop is top in Yellow, which I HIGHLY disagree with. I'll go more detail with this tomorrow
Also, Flareon was surprisingly awesome when I got it. But after about the 7th gym, it really started to lose value. So maybe low tiers it is for him, but I'm still going to rewrite that analysis on there.
Ok so in an attempt to prevent this thread from dying out, I'll be doing a playthrough of Yellow with the following:
Pikachu (I may change to Magneton later)
Golbat
Charizard
Hitmonchan
Poliwrath
Mr. Mime
I'll post my thoughts (and probably full analyses) on them when I finish.
Pikachu (I may change to Magneton later)
Golbat
Charizard
Hitmonchan
Poliwrath
Mr. Mime
I'll post my thoughts (and probably full analyses) on them when I finish.
Okay, here is my controversial placement at Machamp.
Machamp: Low Tier
-Availability: Machamp is obtained through a traded Cubone, who is available at Pokemon Tower. So Mid-Game.
-Stats: Machamp has a huge Attack stat, but has rather average defenses and low Speed.
-Movepool: Mostly TM dependent, Rock Slide and Earthquake provide good coverage.
-Power: Due to his huge Attack stat, Machamp hits hard.
-Type: Fighting. In a game where Dark and Steel don't exist, and Poison types are omnipresent. Fighting isn't the best STAB to have.
-Matchups:
--Koga: His whole team packs Super Effective Psychic which takes Machamp down easily.
--Sabrina: Her Pokemon outspeed and pack Super Effective Psychic.
--Blaine: Machamp can hit his Pokemon hard with Dig or Earthquake, but keep in mind all of his Pokemon outspeed Machamp and Machamp doesn't enjoy taking Fire moves.
--Giovanni: Machamp can beat Persian due to fighting STAB, and Earthquake hits majority of his team for Super Effective damage.
--Lorelei: Fighting is Super Effective on Ice, but Submission is a bad STAB move due to accuracy and recoil issues. Meanwhile, Machamp is worn down by Special Attacks.
--Bruno: Fighting verse Fighting, Machamp breaks even here.
--Agatha: Earthquake hits her team for Super Effective, while Rock Slide deals with Golbat. However, keep in mind her Gengar is fast and the second one does have Psychic.
--Lance: While Rock Slide is Super Effective against half his Pokemon, Machamp wont enjoy taking Special Attacks or Hyper Beam. Not to mention Aerodactyl has Super Effective STAB Fly.
--Gary: Machamp can take on Sandslash, and Exeggutor has he doesn't pack Psychic. But that is it.
Additional Comments: Despite his strong power, Machamp is held back by his Speed and frailness.
I'll do Flareon soon.
Machamp: Low Tier
-Availability: Machamp is obtained through a traded Cubone, who is available at Pokemon Tower. So Mid-Game.
-Stats: Machamp has a huge Attack stat, but has rather average defenses and low Speed.
-Movepool: Mostly TM dependent, Rock Slide and Earthquake provide good coverage.
-Power: Due to his huge Attack stat, Machamp hits hard.
-Type: Fighting. In a game where Dark and Steel don't exist, and Poison types are omnipresent. Fighting isn't the best STAB to have.
-Matchups:
--Koga: His whole team packs Super Effective Psychic which takes Machamp down easily.
--Sabrina: Her Pokemon outspeed and pack Super Effective Psychic.
--Blaine: Machamp can hit his Pokemon hard with Dig or Earthquake, but keep in mind all of his Pokemon outspeed Machamp and Machamp doesn't enjoy taking Fire moves.
--Giovanni: Machamp can beat Persian due to fighting STAB, and Earthquake hits majority of his team for Super Effective damage.
--Lorelei: Fighting is Super Effective on Ice, but Submission is a bad STAB move due to accuracy and recoil issues. Meanwhile, Machamp is worn down by Special Attacks.
--Bruno: Fighting verse Fighting, Machamp breaks even here.
--Agatha: Earthquake hits her team for Super Effective, while Rock Slide deals with Golbat. However, keep in mind her Gengar is fast and the second one does have Psychic.
--Lance: While Rock Slide is Super Effective against half his Pokemon, Machamp wont enjoy taking Special Attacks or Hyper Beam. Not to mention Aerodactyl has Super Effective STAB Fly.
--Gary: Machamp can take on Sandslash, and Exeggutor has he doesn't pack Psychic. But that is it.
Additional Comments: Despite his strong power, Machamp is held back by his Speed and frailness.
I'll do Flareon soon.
I'm currently at Lavander Town with the following team:
Golbat
Charmeleon
Mr. Mime
Magnemite
These are my thoughts so far.
I think that Magnemite is going to be mid tier. I taught it Thunderbolt as soon as I got it and it packs incredible power, allowing me to pretty much OHKO most pokemon that don't resist it (and this is before it evolves mind you). However, Magnemite's movepool is horrible. Thunderbolt's PP gets drained fairly quickly since it's Magnemite's only good attack, and it gets walled by Ground types. Grass types are also bad match-ups, since they can survive Thunderbolt and hit me with an annoying status move. It requires support to be good, but if you are willing to give it then it is a great team member.
Mr. Mime has been awesome, and I can see it being high tier (I'll wait until I get Psychic on it before I actually state this however). It isn't quite top tier because Confusion often falls just short of a OHKO against many opponents (unlike Kadabra/Alakazam), and its level-up movepool is terrible, but the amount of experience this thing gains from being traded is incredible. I obtained it at level 13 and it took less than half an hour to get it to match my team.
Zubat/Golbat is clearly low tier. It isn't completely awful but it certainly isn't efficient. It starts out badly because Leech Life is so weak that Zubat can't kill anything beside other Zubat (unless it gets lucky with Supersonic). It does improve a bit when it gets Bite at level 15, and Confuse Ray + Bite (10% flinch rate) is so fun to toy with, but it slows things down. It's a shame that it doesn't get Mega Drain sooner, since it would have been so helpful against those Ground/Rock types that are common early game.
I know some people might find this a bit odd, but I actually think that Yellow Charmander could be high tier. I originally thought it would be mid, but the thing to keep in mind is that we currently have RB Charmander in top tier, and the only difference between RB Charmander and Yellow Charmander is availability. You get Yellow Charmander a bit later, and at a rather low level. However, there is a patch of grass right next to where you get Charmander containing Bellsprout, Oddish and Venonat. These are easily beaten by Charmander and give plenty of experience. In this playthrough, Charmander evolved after around 15 battles at most, and it took around 75 minutes to get it to match my team (level 21). Soon it got Dig and it simply played the same way as in RB.
75 minutes doesn't seem like that huge of a deal to me. Yes, it does slow you down for a moment, which is enough to prevent it being top tier, but I'm having trouble seeing how 75 minutes is enough to cause Charmander to drop TWO WHOLE TIERS!
Golbat
Charmeleon
Mr. Mime
Magnemite
These are my thoughts so far.
I think that Magnemite is going to be mid tier. I taught it Thunderbolt as soon as I got it and it packs incredible power, allowing me to pretty much OHKO most pokemon that don't resist it (and this is before it evolves mind you). However, Magnemite's movepool is horrible. Thunderbolt's PP gets drained fairly quickly since it's Magnemite's only good attack, and it gets walled by Ground types. Grass types are also bad match-ups, since they can survive Thunderbolt and hit me with an annoying status move. It requires support to be good, but if you are willing to give it then it is a great team member.
Mr. Mime has been awesome, and I can see it being high tier (I'll wait until I get Psychic on it before I actually state this however). It isn't quite top tier because Confusion often falls just short of a OHKO against many opponents (unlike Kadabra/Alakazam), and its level-up movepool is terrible, but the amount of experience this thing gains from being traded is incredible. I obtained it at level 13 and it took less than half an hour to get it to match my team.
Zubat/Golbat is clearly low tier. It isn't completely awful but it certainly isn't efficient. It starts out badly because Leech Life is so weak that Zubat can't kill anything beside other Zubat (unless it gets lucky with Supersonic). It does improve a bit when it gets Bite at level 15, and Confuse Ray + Bite (10% flinch rate) is so fun to toy with, but it slows things down. It's a shame that it doesn't get Mega Drain sooner, since it would have been so helpful against those Ground/Rock types that are common early game.
I know some people might find this a bit odd, but I actually think that Yellow Charmander could be high tier. I originally thought it would be mid, but the thing to keep in mind is that we currently have RB Charmander in top tier, and the only difference between RB Charmander and Yellow Charmander is availability. You get Yellow Charmander a bit later, and at a rather low level. However, there is a patch of grass right next to where you get Charmander containing Bellsprout, Oddish and Venonat. These are easily beaten by Charmander and give plenty of experience. In this playthrough, Charmander evolved after around 15 battles at most, and it took around 75 minutes to get it to match my team (level 21). Soon it got Dig and it simply played the same way as in RB.
75 minutes doesn't seem like that huge of a deal to me. Yes, it does slow you down for a moment, which is enough to prevent it being top tier, but I'm having trouble seeing how 75 minutes is enough to cause Charmander to drop TWO WHOLE TIERS!
I've followed this thread for a while, so prepare for a long post about a few thoughts I had regarding some comments people made recently.
I do see a few issues he might have that could keep him from one of the higher tiers, and counterarguments in dark red to debunk them:
- Fire is a lousy type in Kanto. There are a grand total of FIVE Fire attacks in this game. Charmander can learn four of them (he can't learn Fire Punch), but Flamethrower and Fire Spin come at horribly late levels, and Fire Blast comes as a unique TM that you get late-game. That means that he's stuck with Ember for STAB for most of the game. This might be okay if we had Steel-types in this game, but the only edge Fire moves would have over Flying moves is fighting Ice Pokemon, which will be separate from Water on exactly TWO occasions: Articuno and Lorelei's Jynx. However, Slash and Dig are a near-perfect combination (Lance's Aerodactyl is the only exception I recall) in this game, and Charmander can learn both, so he only seriously needs Fire attacks until he learns Slash, which does about 1.16x more damage to Grass Pokemon than Ember.
- Low level compared to your party. Like I said, I had two other Pokemon when I got Charmander, and they were about Level 18 - 20 or so. But you're at a point of the game where you can still level up Charmander easily without going too far out of your way. He actually stands a strong chance against nearby opponents. It's nowhere near as awkward to level him up as it might be to level up, say, Squirtle in Yellow.
- Diglett. Diglett also gets the Slash / Dig combo. He learns Dig very early by level (you don't have to waste a TM), and he gets STAB on it. He also learns Slash a mere two levels later than Charmeleon (two levels sooner if he stays a Diglett until then). In that regard, Diglett might outclass Charmander. You do get Charmander a bit sooner than Diglett, and he might be close to Diglett's level if not a little higher, but I'm not sure if that's enough to make Charmander better.
- Dependency on Dig. Dig is one of the most valuable TMs in these games, but you only get one copy. If you intend to raise a Geodude or a Sandshrew (or maybe something like a Rattata), they would appreciate having a Ground move. This is probably the most legitimate point you can make for keeping Charmander down. That said, people hold Zapdos in very high esteem, but doesn't he kind of need Thunderbolt to go from great to incredible? Might there be something else that appreciates Thunderbolt, such as Magneton or Electrode? Or Jolteon?
Honestly, I'm not sure if Charmander really needs a separate analysis for Yellow. Out of the Kanto starters, Charmander's situation seems to change the least from Red / Blue to Yellow. He's not missing much he would've liked to encounter, and he's not far enough behind your team to really drag it down. I'd see it as High tier, maybe even Top.
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On an unrelated note, looking at Hemp Man's analysis of Machamp, I have to wonder why people thought it would be so much better in Yellow anyway. I'm guessing it's because it's a powerful Pokemon you normally have to trade with another game to obtain, and because of the Exp boost. But the difference between this Machamp and the Dewgong you can trade for in Cinnabar is that Dewgong comes at a great time if you need her, and Machamp doesn't. Dewgong comes at a point where you encounter a lot of Fire and Ground Pokemon (or monsters with low Special) to fight, so I can see her potential shining right away. When you get this Machamp, though, no matter where you go right after that (Celadon Gym, Fuchsia Gym, Silph Co, Saffron Gym, back in the Pokemon Tower if you left to trade before finishing that), you're going to face a lot of foes that just laugh at Fighting Pokemon. Sure, some things will be hit hard by Submission, but there's still a lot of Poison and a lot of Psychic powers (and maybe a few dangerous beaks, too) that Machamp will have to deal with.
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On a different unrelated note, should the Zapdos and Articuno analyses include match-ups against Blaine and Sabrina? It might not be much of a difference, but you can get both birds before fighting either Gym Leader, and the power difference shouldn't be as crushing for them as it might be for Surge or Erika (in Zapdos's case).
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tl;dr Charmander's awesome; Machamp isn't, even with in-game trades; maybe Articuno should fight Blaine and see how that goes. :P
Not sure who would find this odd, because I agree with this. Pretty much totally. I played through Yellow with Charmander about a month ago. He was about 8-10 levels lower than my Pikachu and Nidoqueen at the time. I only had him fighting enough plants and Venonat to get him to Level 12, then after that, I switched him around a little in battles with Trainers, and he even fought a few of them. He evolved into a Charmeleon about one trainer battle before I made it to Bill. Once he learned Dig, Charmeleon was basically my MVP of the run, since there are so many Pokemon weak to Ground moves throughout the game. He gets Slash, too, pretty much netting him super-effective damage on anything that isn't a Rock or a Ghost (both of which are hit for super-effective damage by Dig in this game) due to how critical hits work. I don't consider myself a Charizard fanboy, but I have to admit, Charizard is actually a badass in this game (probably even more than most kids thought he was :P ).
I do see a few issues he might have that could keep him from one of the higher tiers, and counterarguments in dark red to debunk them:
- Fire is a lousy type in Kanto. There are a grand total of FIVE Fire attacks in this game. Charmander can learn four of them (he can't learn Fire Punch), but Flamethrower and Fire Spin come at horribly late levels, and Fire Blast comes as a unique TM that you get late-game. That means that he's stuck with Ember for STAB for most of the game. This might be okay if we had Steel-types in this game, but the only edge Fire moves would have over Flying moves is fighting Ice Pokemon, which will be separate from Water on exactly TWO occasions: Articuno and Lorelei's Jynx. However, Slash and Dig are a near-perfect combination (Lance's Aerodactyl is the only exception I recall) in this game, and Charmander can learn both, so he only seriously needs Fire attacks until he learns Slash, which does about 1.16x more damage to Grass Pokemon than Ember.
- Low level compared to your party. Like I said, I had two other Pokemon when I got Charmander, and they were about Level 18 - 20 or so. But you're at a point of the game where you can still level up Charmander easily without going too far out of your way. He actually stands a strong chance against nearby opponents. It's nowhere near as awkward to level him up as it might be to level up, say, Squirtle in Yellow.
- Diglett. Diglett also gets the Slash / Dig combo. He learns Dig very early by level (you don't have to waste a TM), and he gets STAB on it. He also learns Slash a mere two levels later than Charmeleon (two levels sooner if he stays a Diglett until then). In that regard, Diglett might outclass Charmander. You do get Charmander a bit sooner than Diglett, and he might be close to Diglett's level if not a little higher, but I'm not sure if that's enough to make Charmander better.
- Dependency on Dig. Dig is one of the most valuable TMs in these games, but you only get one copy. If you intend to raise a Geodude or a Sandshrew (or maybe something like a Rattata), they would appreciate having a Ground move. This is probably the most legitimate point you can make for keeping Charmander down. That said, people hold Zapdos in very high esteem, but doesn't he kind of need Thunderbolt to go from great to incredible? Might there be something else that appreciates Thunderbolt, such as Magneton or Electrode? Or Jolteon?
Honestly, I'm not sure if Charmander really needs a separate analysis for Yellow. Out of the Kanto starters, Charmander's situation seems to change the least from Red / Blue to Yellow. He's not missing much he would've liked to encounter, and he's not far enough behind your team to really drag it down. I'd see it as High tier, maybe even Top.
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On an unrelated note, looking at Hemp Man's analysis of Machamp, I have to wonder why people thought it would be so much better in Yellow anyway. I'm guessing it's because it's a powerful Pokemon you normally have to trade with another game to obtain, and because of the Exp boost. But the difference between this Machamp and the Dewgong you can trade for in Cinnabar is that Dewgong comes at a great time if you need her, and Machamp doesn't. Dewgong comes at a point where you encounter a lot of Fire and Ground Pokemon (or monsters with low Special) to fight, so I can see her potential shining right away. When you get this Machamp, though, no matter where you go right after that (Celadon Gym, Fuchsia Gym, Silph Co, Saffron Gym, back in the Pokemon Tower if you left to trade before finishing that), you're going to face a lot of foes that just laugh at Fighting Pokemon. Sure, some things will be hit hard by Submission, but there's still a lot of Poison and a lot of Psychic powers (and maybe a few dangerous beaks, too) that Machamp will have to deal with.
-----
On a different unrelated note, should the Zapdos and Articuno analyses include match-ups against Blaine and Sabrina? It might not be much of a difference, but you can get both birds before fighting either Gym Leader, and the power difference shouldn't be as crushing for them as it might be for Surge or Erika (in Zapdos's case).
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tl;dr Charmander's awesome; Machamp isn't, even with in-game trades; maybe Articuno should fight Blaine and see how that goes. :P
Just an update, Mr. Mime is now truely amazing since I detoured to Saffron for the Psychic TM. This is high for sure. I also got Hitmonchan there. I haven't used it much but it could easily go to mid tier. It comes at level 30 which was pretty much what my team was at, so no grinding required. I gave it Body Slam and has been KOing plenty of things. I think its horrible movepool is far too crippling for high though. No fighting moves for most of the game is lame and it sucks that its Special is so bad in this game. Fire Punch has been truely useless.
Everything I said in my last post still applies basically.
Everything I said in my last post still applies basically.
The reason why I said it might be considered odd was because I assumed that everyone thought it would turn out mid. I actually claimed that all of the starters in yellow would be mid in the old thread, and no-one really disagreed (Mekkah even agreed with me). I was so sure of it that I almost considered not using it for my playthrough, but I'm glad I did now.
I would actually be ok with this, though I'd rather stick it in high over top. For now, I'll just do a yellow entry when I'm done and we can just merge them later if required (I would like more opinions before we do something like that).
Flareon: Low Tier
-Availability: Celadon City at Level 25, Mid-Game.
-Stats: Flareon has a great Attack and Special, but everything else is average.
-Movepool: Through Level-Up Flareon can use Bite as his Physical Attack, Quick Attack to Finish off weakened foes, and Fire Spin for STAB and trapping. Flareon also gets Body Slam and Fire Blast as TM's. If you're using Flareon as your Fire type, he's probably going to get Fire Blast, but Body Slam is a TM in high demand.
-Power: With great Attack and Special comes hard hitting.
-Type: Fire. Not the best type, weak to common Water, Rock, and Ground moves and doesn't get STAB off his best start.
-Matchups:
--Erika: Has no Fire STAB here, but Quick Attack beats up a lot of Pokemon that trainers use in her gym, and Flareon resists Grass moves. Erika does have a Tangela whose high Physical Defense will allow it tank Quick Attacks, but Tangela can't do much to Flareon.
--Koga: Flareon is faster than the Venonats and can use Fire Spin to trap them, but Venomoth might provide trouble. Also, Antidotes might be needed for Toxic.
--Sabrina: Abra has no attacking moves, so he is irrelevant. Flareon has good Special, so he can take Kadabra/Alakazam's Psychics and use his high Attack to attack their frailness. However, due to Critical Hits or Special Falls, Flareon cannot guarantee sweep.
--Blaine: Pretty even here. Flareon wont enjoy taking Physical Hits from Rapidash and Arcanine, but they wont enjoy taking hits from Flareon. Keep in mind they do have the Speed Advantage here. Also, after this battle Flareon gets Fire Blast TM.
--Giovanni: Earthquake is omnipresent here, don't even bother.
--Lorelei: Can take out Jynx with Fire Blast, but that is it.
--Bruno: Don't bother. His fighting types hit Flareon on his weak Physical Defense, and there are much easier ways to dispose of Onix than spamming Fire Blast.
--Agatha: Her ghosts resist Flareon's Physical Moves and can take Fire Blast due to their high Special.
--Lance: Hyper Beam ruins Flareon, and Gyarados has Hydro Pump to add insult to injury.
--Gary: Flareon beats Exeggutor 1-1, but loses to Sandslash and Cloyster. With some luck with how poorly the AI battles Flareon can actually take on Jolteon, Alakazam, and Ninetails, but it is not guaranteed Flareon will win.
Additional Comments: Flareon starts off really strong, but as the game reaches its final act, his valueless starts to decrease as their isn't much desire for a Fire type.
Oh and Zapdos takes out Sabrina easily. Just spam Drill Peck.
-Availability: Celadon City at Level 25, Mid-Game.
-Stats: Flareon has a great Attack and Special, but everything else is average.
-Movepool: Through Level-Up Flareon can use Bite as his Physical Attack, Quick Attack to Finish off weakened foes, and Fire Spin for STAB and trapping. Flareon also gets Body Slam and Fire Blast as TM's. If you're using Flareon as your Fire type, he's probably going to get Fire Blast, but Body Slam is a TM in high demand.
-Power: With great Attack and Special comes hard hitting.
-Type: Fire. Not the best type, weak to common Water, Rock, and Ground moves and doesn't get STAB off his best start.
-Matchups:
--Erika: Has no Fire STAB here, but Quick Attack beats up a lot of Pokemon that trainers use in her gym, and Flareon resists Grass moves. Erika does have a Tangela whose high Physical Defense will allow it tank Quick Attacks, but Tangela can't do much to Flareon.
--Koga: Flareon is faster than the Venonats and can use Fire Spin to trap them, but Venomoth might provide trouble. Also, Antidotes might be needed for Toxic.
--Sabrina: Abra has no attacking moves, so he is irrelevant. Flareon has good Special, so he can take Kadabra/Alakazam's Psychics and use his high Attack to attack their frailness. However, due to Critical Hits or Special Falls, Flareon cannot guarantee sweep.
--Blaine: Pretty even here. Flareon wont enjoy taking Physical Hits from Rapidash and Arcanine, but they wont enjoy taking hits from Flareon. Keep in mind they do have the Speed Advantage here. Also, after this battle Flareon gets Fire Blast TM.
--Giovanni: Earthquake is omnipresent here, don't even bother.
--Lorelei: Can take out Jynx with Fire Blast, but that is it.
--Bruno: Don't bother. His fighting types hit Flareon on his weak Physical Defense, and there are much easier ways to dispose of Onix than spamming Fire Blast.
--Agatha: Her ghosts resist Flareon's Physical Moves and can take Fire Blast due to their high Special.
--Lance: Hyper Beam ruins Flareon, and Gyarados has Hydro Pump to add insult to injury.
--Gary: Flareon beats Exeggutor 1-1, but loses to Sandslash and Cloyster. With some luck with how poorly the AI battles Flareon can actually take on Jolteon, Alakazam, and Ninetails, but it is not guaranteed Flareon will win.
Additional Comments: Flareon starts off really strong, but as the game reaches its final act, his valueless starts to decrease as their isn't much desire for a Fire type.
Well, Fire does have one thing over Flying. Most Rock Pokemon have good defense but poor Special, so Fire does better against Rock types than Flying moves (nobody uses Omaster and Kabutops ingame, so they dont count).
Thank you, and on the Submission part - it has imperfect accuracy, AND it has recoil. :/ Not the best STAB
Actually Articuno might do well there. Articuno has massive Special for bulk and his STAB Blizzard is insanely strong, keep in mind Fire doesn't resist Ice in RBY.
Oh and Zapdos takes out Sabrina easily. Just spam Drill Peck.
I think these two points are the best arguments against Charmander's status in Yellow. On the Diglett note though, you can get Dugtrio around the same time at a much higher level, and he's immune to Electric STAB attacks, he gets most of the moves he needs through level up and is available after Misty. His stats are also much better than Charmander's, meaning he can Critical more with Dig (Slash is 99% crit rate anyway), and he gets STAB on Dig as well making it much stronger. So Charmander is well outclassed in this regard unfortunately. In addition, the comparison between the Dig and Thunderbolt TMs is silly, they are both two different moves with different distributions. Far less Pokemon can actually use Thunderbolt anyway, and most of those are Electric types, so if you haven't used it on your Nidoking/Magneton, it's free game for your Zapdos which you would use instead. Dig however has a huge distribution and an absolute plethora of Pokemon that benefit from it, making it much more contested and far more important. It is arguably the most contested TM in the game.
With that being said however, Charmander is pretty beasty with Dig/Slash.
I'd argue otherwise for most of the points in the above post. You can get through the game well enough without dig really. The nidos don't even need it to thrash surge, as Body Slam / Thrash plus electric- immune are more than enough to beat even yellow raichu. Geodude (Graveler/golem?) obviously kills surge without Dig too. After that, there are barely any electric type- enemies until the scientists in Saffron (same place you get Earthquake...), all the poison enemies are pretty weak and easily beat by anything with a psychic attack (you have LOTS of top tier options to pick-- even shit ones like butterfree...), and all the rock enemies are much more easily dealth with using one of the plethora or water / grass / ice attack users available basically... everywhere in the game. In retrospect, I can't think of something particularly good I'd use dig on, as Dugtrio has it, the Nidos can't learn it and all those other options you mentioned kind of suck besides Charmander.
Meanwhile, Thunderbolt is a hugely useful STAB/coverage move for a number of mid-/high tier options (RB Pikachu, Nidos, Gyarados, Magneton, Jolteon, Gengar, Starmie, Zapdos, being the main ones), that has fantasically useful coverage-- it's the best move in the game for dealing with ALL the water types in the later half of the game, and is great for hitting the many flying types (read: bird trainers) hanging around as well. Frankly, I can't even see at all how dig would be more contended than thunderbolt.
Meanwhile, Thunderbolt is a hugely useful STAB/coverage move for a number of mid-/high tier options (RB Pikachu, Nidos, Gyarados, Magneton, Jolteon, Gengar, Starmie, Zapdos, being the main ones), that has fantasically useful coverage-- it's the best move in the game for dealing with ALL the water types in the later half of the game, and is great for hitting the many flying types (read: bird trainers) hanging around as well. Frankly, I can't even see at all how dig would be more contended than thunderbolt.
I would greatly appreciate if you guy could go through some/all of these and comment. This was my first time using some of these so if I'm completely wrong about something then feel free to say something.
For now I've kept Yellow Charmander in a separate tier from RB Charmander. If we decide to marge them then it is easy to do (pretty much all the info is the same except availability).
Here we go:
-Zubat - Low Tier
-Availability: You can get it before the second badge in Mt. Moon. Zubat’s relative weakness does mean that you’ll need to grind it though, regardless of the level you catch it (it can be as high as level 11), which is a pain since it can only beat opposing Zubat at this point. It is a tedious task, made worse by Leech Life’s low PP forcing you to run back and forth between Mt. Moon and the Pokémon centre outside.
-Stats: Golbat’s stats are not particularly great but they aren’t completely horrible either. It is quite quick, and 75 HP, 80 Attack, 70 Defence and 75 Special are ok given how early you evolve (they aren’t all that good late game though).
-Movepool: Its level-up movepool is unbelievably bad. Bite at level 15 is its strongest attack by level up. This is fine early on and the flinches it provides are helpful but the lack of power shows later on. Its TM movepool isn’t much better. Mega Drain, Double-Edge and Take Down are all you’re getting (it doesn’t even get Fly). Don’t be surprised if your moveset ends up being (Bite or Double-Edge)/Mega Drain/Leech Life/Wing Attack or something weird like that.
-Power: Bite can 2HKO some of the weaker Pokémon but during important battles, and later on in general, you will take more and more turns to kill things, so it can’t really power through routes.
-Type: Wing Attack is its only STAB and it is too weak to be of much use. From a defensive point of view, Poison/Flying (besides being unique) has some useful resistances (Ground/Fighting/Grass/Poison) and provides immunity to Poison but also provides weaknesses to Electric/Ice/Rock/Psychic, all of which are used in some important battles.
-Match-ups: Misty – Not that helpful. It can beat Staryu but it isn’t guaranteed to be faster and may take damage, and it will lose to Starmie
Lt. Surge – Thunderbolt will kill you.
Erika – Tangela is somewhat annoying due to physical bulk but can’t do much back, and Weepinbel and Gloom are at least 3HKOed by Leech Life (watch for Sleep Powder).
Koga – Depends on your level. Poison immunity is good and RB Koga shouldn't be that hard, though it doesn't exactly take everything down in one hit either. Psychic is super-effective but Golbat can take 1 or 2 from Venonat before going down.
Sabrina – Bite and Leech Life ok damage but Psychic OHKOs.
Blaine – Depends on level; Ninetales’s Flamethrower does a lot of damage, as does Arcanine’s Flamethrower and Fire Blast. Rapidash can Fire Spin trap you. Not really that good here, though RB Blaine is significantly easier.
Giovanni – Beats Dugtrio, Persian’s Double Team is annoying thanks to its inability to kill it quickly, Nidoqueen and Nidoking have Thunder and Rhydon has Rock Slide (Mega Drain is good here though).
Lorelei – So many Ice attacks! Golbat isn’t good here.
Bruno – Mega Drain kills Onix. The 4x Fighting resistance is useful and Hitmonchan’s elemental punches are too weak to be that big of a concern (any damage can be recovered back from Mega Draining his second Onix). The Normal attacks are a bit more concerning, but overall Golbat is ok here.
Agatha – It won’t enjoy Dream Eater (easily dealt with using the Pokeflute) or Psychic, but Mega Drain and Poison resistance is handy. This battle is often down to luck with Confuse Ray and how much Agatha switches against you.
Lance – It does significantly worse in Yellow due to Ice Beam, Blizzard and Thunderbolt. Otherwise it will probably depend on level (you’ll need to be quite over-levelled to win alone though).
Blue – In RB you should do ok against Rhydon, Exeggutor, Venusaur, Pidgeot, and Arcanine with a bit of “Take Down missed” luck. In Yellow your best match-ups are Sandslash, Exeggutor, Ninetales and Flareon.
-Additional Comments: Zubat isn’t as bad as it first seems. Bite is acceptable for a little while, and Mega Drain and Leech Life have niche uses and recover HP simultaneously, which is handy. However, the fact is that Golbat is simply not an efficient battler, taking multiple turns to KO most opponents, and unlike other weak Flying types like Farfetch’d it doesn’t even provide any utility by learning Fly! There is just little justification for using this in an efficient run, making it low tier.
-Charmander (Yellow) - High Tier
-Availability: You get it at around the second gym at level 10. It comes under-levelled, but there is a patch of grass nearby containing Bellsprout, Oddish and Venonat, all of which Charmander can beat and all of which give plenty of experience. It does slow your playthrough a bit but it does not take Charmander too long to catch up and it’s worth it in the long run.
-Stats: Charizard’s stats are reasonably balanced. It’s fast, hits hard and can take a hit or two, making it a solid battler.
-Movepool: Its level up movepool is not that great early on. Charmeleon needs Dig. Without it, Charmeleon is quite mediocre until it gets Slash at level 33. This is issue since Dig is a valuable TM, but Charizard is a great user of Dig so don’t think of it as a waste. Charizard only needs Dig and Slash to dominate, and Fly and Flamethrower are mere bonuses.
-Power: Charizard is one of the best in-game Pokémon, powering through opponents with ease. Charmeleon is not quite as powerful which is awkward since it evolves at level 36, but it does well enough to justify waiting for it to evolve.
-Type: It learns Fly and Flamethrower, but Charizard doesn’t even NEED them because Slash and Dig cover everything anyway. Defensively, it has a niche as a Fire type that is immune to Ground. Water, Rock, Ice and Electric weaknesses aren’t helpful but in most battles they are irrelevant because Charizard will kill opponents before they move.
-Match-ups: Lt. Surge – If you have Dig and are at an acceptable level, you will do well here. Without Dig Raichu will simply be too good.
Erika – The sad thing is that Ember is not that powerful despite the type advantage, but the grass resistance should be enough for you to do well.
Koga – Venonat is weak so it shouldn’t be an issue. Fly is super-effective against his whole team and Psychic doesn’t exactly take Charizard down instantly.
Sabrina – Slash deals plenty of damage on her Pokémon’s lower defence stat. AS long as you are at a reasonable level you should be fine.
Blaine – You win with Dig. If Arcanine uses Reflect then use Slash to ignore it!
Giovanni – You beat Dugtrio, as well as Persian due to strength alone. Dig is super-effective against Nidoqueen, Nidoking and Rhydon but you have to be careful around Thunder and Rock Slide.
Lorelei – Charizard is actually weak to Ice in RBY (plus Water obviously) so this isn’t a good match-up. Slash should beat Jynx though.
Bruno – Dig for Onix, but they have Rock Slide. Fighting resistance is helpful for Hitmonlee and Machamp.
Agatha – Dig is great against everything except Golbat, who isn’t that strong anyway. You do well here.
Lance – Its weaknesses to Ice, Electric and Water hurt it, and Aerodactyl is the only Pokémon in the game to resist all of Charizard’s main moves. This isn’t a great match-up for Charizard.
Blue – You should be fine to take on Sandslash, Exeggutor, Ninetales and Flareon, and Alakazam is perfectly beatable thanks to Slash.
-Additional Comments: The main thing that prevents Charmander being Top tier in Yellow is its availability. However, this flaw is made up for by Charizard’s incredible power, making it an excellent choice for an efficient run through Yellow.
-Mr. Mime - High Tier
-Availability: Obtained from a trade (Abra in RB and Clefairy in Yellow). Its level depends on the level of the Pokémon you are trading. Chances are it will be underleveled unless you happen to level up the Pokémon you are going to trade away as you are going. However, the boosted experience allows Mr. Mime to gain levels very quickly and it will catch up to the rest of your team in a flash.
-Stats: Mr. Mime has good Speed and Special, giving it strong battling capabilities. The HP and Defence are low but it isn’t a crippling problem because most opponents will fold before they strike.
-Movepool: Sadly, Mr. Mime has a poor level-up movepool. Confusion is its only decent attack. On the plus side, it can learn Psychic through TM, which is pretty much all it needs. It also gets Thunderbolt, but it isn’t something that Mr. Mime particularly benefits from (although it is its best option against other Psychics).
-Power: Mr. Mime is actually the weakest fully evolved pure-Psychic type, but this is more of a reflection of the quality of the other Psychics rather than Mr. Mime itself. It doesn’t quite OHKO everything with Confusion like Kadabra/Alakazam can but it is still a powerful Pokémon, and when it gets Psychic before Erika it becomes a killing machine.
-Type: Psychic is highly regarded as the best type in RBY. Psychic is super-effective against Fighting and Poison, allowing it to blast through Team Rocket grunt, and it is only resisted by itself.
-Match-ups: Lt. Surge – Unfortunately, Confusion isn’t enough in Yellow. Mega Kick and Mega Punch will kill Mr. Mime too quickly. In RB you should do ok with Voltorb and Pikachu at least.
Erika – Psychic destroys pretty much everything in this whole gym. Tangela can take it better than Gloom/Vileplume and Weepinbell/Victreebel but it can’t do much back.
Koga – Psychic is super-effective against everything and it resists the Psychic attacks being fired back at it in Yellow. It should do great here.
Sabrina – Pretty much a mirror match. The outcome depends on level but Recover gives Kadabra and Alakazam a bit of an edge. You should beat Venomoth in RB easily though.
Blaine – This also depends on level but Mr. Mime’s high special helps it take Flamethrower/Fire Blast. It doesn’t dominate but it can contribute.
Giovanni – Psychic makes short work of Nidoqueen and Nidoking. His other Pokémon have poor Special stats so it is a good choice for this battle.
Lorelei – A neutral match-up overall, although Slowbro and Jynx resist Psychic so they are tricky to take down (note that Slowbro has Amnesia).
Bruno – You win easily here. His fighting Pokémon are doomed to fail and Onix is frail on the special side.
Agatha – Psychic is super-effective against everything. You win unless you get unlucky with confusion damage or something.
Lance – There isn’t really an advantage or a disadvantage type wise. Mr. Mime won’t want to take Hyper Beam too much, but it can take special attacks which is handy in Yellow.
Blue – None of his Pokémon are actually weak to Psychic except Venusaur, so this will come down to stats. You should be able to at least beat (efficiently) Pidgeot, Rhydon, Venusaur, Magneton, Ninetales, Flareon and Vaporeon, though honestly it all depends on level.
-Additional Comments: Technically this is just a worse Alakazam, but it is still a great battler and the massive amount of experience this gains from battling makes it a great choice. Not only does this allow Mr. Mime to grow quickly, it also give more opportunities for its teammates to jump into battle and gain experience too!
-Magnemite - Mid Tier
-Availability: In RB, you can find it in the Power Plant. Wild Magnemite are at a rather low level, but Magneton can be caught at a higher level and require less catch-up time. In Yellow it is obtained sooner just outside the entrance to Rock Tunnel. It will require a bit of grinding but not so much as to completely slow down your playthrough.
-Stats: Magnemite evolves quite quickly into Magneton, who has an impressive 120 Special and is fairly bulky overall. It isn’t the fastest Pokémon around but as long as you are at a good level you will be going first most of the time.
-Movepool: Magneton has a terrible level-up movepool. In fact, you absolutely NEED to give this Thunderbolt for it to be worthwhile. If not, you’ll be using Thundershock for a while until you get the unreliable Thunder. Thankfully, Thunderbolt covers a lot of Pokémon by itself.
-Power: Magneton’s Thunderbolt allows it to OHKO almost anything that doesn’t resist it. Magneton will power through many trainers with ease. However, due to mono-Electric coverage it struggles against Ground types (particularly Rock/Ground types), Grass types and opposing Electric types (the latter 2 groups can survive Thunderbolt and hit back with paralysis).
-Type: Electric gives plenty of coverage, and is particularly powerful against the Water types that appear late game, although the things that resist it appear frequently throughout the game too, lowering its power a bit. Electric isn’t particularly useful defensively. Flying resistance is unnecessary because all the birds are OHKOed, and Electric resistance isn’t helpful because opposing Electric types resist your main attack anyway.
-Match-ups: Erika – You don’t do well here. Her Pokémon take Thunderbolt and hit back with whatever they want.
Koga – RB Koga is a joke. Thunderbolt is strong enough to sweep him. In Yellow, Magneton really benefits from having a high Special, which allows it to take Psychic.
Sabrina – This is basically a battle of the Special stats. If you can paralyse with Thunder Wave or something then this will make this battle a bit easier.
Blaine – No type advantage, but you can win if you have a sufficient level. This is notably easier in RB due to the worse team he has there.
Giovanni – You are quite hopeless here. In Yellow you can at least beat Persian, but everything else walls you (although in RB Rhydon is the only thing with a Ground move so I guess that’s something... or not).
Lorelei – Thunderbolt eats most of her team alive. It is evenly matched with Jynx but watch out for Lovely Kiss in Yellow.
Bruno – You should beat his fighting types, but you should use something else for Onix.
Agatha – Golbat and Arbok should not be a problem to beat. Gengar and Haunter may outspeed and try to confuse and sleep you though.
Lance – You beat Gyarados and Aerodactyl. Dragonair resist Thunderbolt though you may be able to beat them just because they suck so much. Dragonite is beatable unless you have been weakened.
Blue – You beat Pidgeot, Gyarados, Charizard, Blastoise, Cloyster and Vaporeon, and you should be able to take on Alakazam, Arcanine and Ninetales too.
-Additional Comments: Magneton packs incredible power. However, it is severely let down by its necessity for Thunderbolt. If you have it reserved for something else then Magneton is less useful. It also requires support to get around anything that resists Thunderbolt, lowering its killing potential. If you can get around these issues then it is a good choice that will contribute to beating the game efficiently.
-Hitmonchan - Low Tier
-Availability: You can get this as soon as you get to Celadon by heading to Saffron straight away and fighting through the Dojo. This isn’t particularly hard, and Hitmonchan comes at level 30, which should be around what your team is at.
-Stats: 105 Attack is pretty good and it has a decent enough speed for in-game purposes. Its Special is horrible though, which is a shame given its movepool.
-Movepool: Hitmonchan is a case of a Pokémon who has a movepool that doesn’t match its stats. It is the only Pokémon with all 3 elemental punches, but 35 Special makes these completely useless. It has no STAB moves by level up. It absolutely needs TM support to work. Submission is obtained from Celadon, and it gets Body Slam, Mega Punch and Double-Edge to pick from, all of which are powerful enough for that point in the game. Body Slam is the best choice for reliability but it may not be available. It gets Strength later though which is a reasonable substitute.
-Power: Initially it can actually power through weaker opponents using stats alone. As the game goes on, Submission's recoil begins to become a issue and its lack of STAB outside of Submission begins to show. It becomes less useful as a result.
-Type: Submission is its only real STAB and be obtained by TM as soon as you get Hitmonchan, and although it has great power it is inaccurate and deals recoil (which is bad for Hitmonchan’s poor HP stat). Fighting is a bad defensive type overall. Flying and Psychic attacks are common in this game are fairly common, which hurts Hitmonchan as a viable choice.
-Match-ups: Erika – Neutral overall, but it isn’t particularly useful. Her Pokémon can take hits and can strike back with a status move, or just hit hard with a special attack.
Koga – In RB, his Pokémon are bulky and can poison you, but otherwise this isn’t a particularly bad match-up (a full solo might be a bit much though). In Yellow he gets screwed over by Psychic, though he might take down a Venonat!
Sabrina – I shouldn’t have to explain why this is a bad match-up. Hitmonchan just dies here and is completely useless.
Blaine – Hitmonchan is crippled by its poor Special. Flamethrower and Fire Blast do tons of damage to it, making it a mediocre choice at best for this battle.
Giovanni – Dugtrio and Persian can be beaten due to frailty. Nidoqueen and Nidoking are tougher, particularly in Yellow where they have Thunder. Rhyhorn and Rhydon are weak to Submission. It doesn’t flat out lose here like in other gyms but it isn’t particularly great either.
Lorelei – Well you should have Submission now, but it still doesn’t do that well. Submission is so risky and those Ice and Water attacks will hurt.
Bruno – Mirror Match, except for his Onix who you can beat with Submission. Beating everthing else depends on level really.
Agatha – Holy crap you are awful here. Gengar and Haunter are IMMUNE TO ALL OF YOUR PHYSICAL MOVES! None of the elemental punches are going to help you win. Arbok and Golbat resist fighting but can be beaten with whatever normal move you have. You will probably get statused though.
Lance – You might beat Aerodactyl, Dragonair or Dragonite because their movesets suck, but Gyarados has Hydro Pump. In Yellow things are tough because everything except Aerodactyl has special attacks, but Aerodactyl has Fly anyway.
Blue – You stand a chance against Rhydon, Exeggutor and Sandslash, but everything else is a risky match-up due to special/super-effective moves within their movesets.
-Additional Comments: Hitmonchan started off decently thanks to its high starting level and above average attack, but it became quite poor in the long run. Its horrible movepool, lack of RELIABLE STAB, terrible match-ups during key battles and that awful Special really work against Hitmonchan and I just can’t see why anyone would use this for an efficient run.
-Poliwag - Mid Tier
-Availability: You can catch this as a Poliwag or a Poliwhirl with a rod. You need to beat Pokémon Tower to get the rods, so you can get it mid-game at the earliest. In RB its highest level is in the mid 20s, but in Yellow you can catch it as high as level 40 (you need 4 badges to reach the water on route 23 though). You can then evolve it straight away (or level it up for Body Slam)
-Stats: Poliwrath is basically a middleman. All of its stats are decent without being particularly outstanding. This allows it to be a solid Pokémon on the battlefield.
-Movepool: Poliwrath has a great movepool. It is notable that it has Body Slam in its movepool, which means it can learn Body Slam without using up the TM. It learns BubbleBeam/Surf, Ice Beam/Blizzard, Psychic, Earthquake and Submission from TM/HM, allowing it to gain excellent coverage. It also has Amnesia if you don’t mind boosting.
-Power: Poliwrath just doesn’t have the stats to power through absolutely everything, but the awesome coverage allows it to be useful during many parts of the game. It will always contribute, though it won’t do anything amazing.
-Type: Water is a great STAB, and although Poliwrath’s Special isn’t as high as it could be, Surf should be sufficient to gain at least a 2HKO on most things. Its typing is unique, but to be honest the Fighting type hurts it more than it helps it, adding Psychic and Flying weaknesses in addition to the Electric and Grass ones.
-Match-ups: Koga – You should be fine in RB, especially if you gave it Psychic, but in Yellow you have a Psychic weakness to deal with.
Sabrina – You’re a Fighting type. This is a Psychic gym. It won’t end well.
Blaine – You do great here. Surf will deal with his Pokémon nicely.
Giovanni – Basically the same as Blaine, but you have to watch for Thunder from Nidoqueen and Nidoking. You should be able to take at least 1 though.
Lorelei – An even match. If you have Submission you can hit her Ice types harder than they can hit back. Watch for Psychic from Slowbro in Yellow.
Bruno – Onix dies to Surf and the Hitmons have horrible Specials. This should be easy.
Agatha – Being weak to Psychic isn’t helpful, particularly in Yellow (one of her Gengar has Psychic in Yellow). It’s more manageable in RB as long as you don’t stay asleep for too long. If you have Earthquake then it should be effective here, and Golbat is weak to Ice Beam.
Lance – Ice Beam is a huge help against the Dragons and Aerodactyl, though there are better choices are Gyarados. Yellow is harder thanks to Fly and Thunderbolt.
Blue – You can actually take on anything except Alakazam (and perhaps Venusaur) in RB, particularly Pidgeot, Rhydon, Exeggutor, Charizard and Arcanine. In Yellow, you should be fine against everything except Jolteon, Magneton and Alakazam.
-Additional Comments: It just doesn’t have enough power for high tier, and it suffers a bit in RB for availability, but regardless it is a decent choice that sets itself apart from other water types with its impressive movepool. It provides a Surfer that can also battle well, and it has great match-ups against important trainers towards the end of the game.
For now I've kept Yellow Charmander in a separate tier from RB Charmander. If we decide to marge them then it is easy to do (pretty much all the info is the same except availability).
Here we go:
-Zubat - Low Tier
-Availability: You can get it before the second badge in Mt. Moon. Zubat’s relative weakness does mean that you’ll need to grind it though, regardless of the level you catch it (it can be as high as level 11), which is a pain since it can only beat opposing Zubat at this point. It is a tedious task, made worse by Leech Life’s low PP forcing you to run back and forth between Mt. Moon and the Pokémon centre outside.
-Stats: Golbat’s stats are not particularly great but they aren’t completely horrible either. It is quite quick, and 75 HP, 80 Attack, 70 Defence and 75 Special are ok given how early you evolve (they aren’t all that good late game though).
-Movepool: Its level-up movepool is unbelievably bad. Bite at level 15 is its strongest attack by level up. This is fine early on and the flinches it provides are helpful but the lack of power shows later on. Its TM movepool isn’t much better. Mega Drain, Double-Edge and Take Down are all you’re getting (it doesn’t even get Fly). Don’t be surprised if your moveset ends up being (Bite or Double-Edge)/Mega Drain/Leech Life/Wing Attack or something weird like that.
-Power: Bite can 2HKO some of the weaker Pokémon but during important battles, and later on in general, you will take more and more turns to kill things, so it can’t really power through routes.
-Type: Wing Attack is its only STAB and it is too weak to be of much use. From a defensive point of view, Poison/Flying (besides being unique) has some useful resistances (Ground/Fighting/Grass/Poison) and provides immunity to Poison but also provides weaknesses to Electric/Ice/Rock/Psychic, all of which are used in some important battles.
-Match-ups: Misty – Not that helpful. It can beat Staryu but it isn’t guaranteed to be faster and may take damage, and it will lose to Starmie
Lt. Surge – Thunderbolt will kill you.
Erika – Tangela is somewhat annoying due to physical bulk but can’t do much back, and Weepinbel and Gloom are at least 3HKOed by Leech Life (watch for Sleep Powder).
Koga – Depends on your level. Poison immunity is good and RB Koga shouldn't be that hard, though it doesn't exactly take everything down in one hit either. Psychic is super-effective but Golbat can take 1 or 2 from Venonat before going down.
Sabrina – Bite and Leech Life ok damage but Psychic OHKOs.
Blaine – Depends on level; Ninetales’s Flamethrower does a lot of damage, as does Arcanine’s Flamethrower and Fire Blast. Rapidash can Fire Spin trap you. Not really that good here, though RB Blaine is significantly easier.
Giovanni – Beats Dugtrio, Persian’s Double Team is annoying thanks to its inability to kill it quickly, Nidoqueen and Nidoking have Thunder and Rhydon has Rock Slide (Mega Drain is good here though).
Lorelei – So many Ice attacks! Golbat isn’t good here.
Bruno – Mega Drain kills Onix. The 4x Fighting resistance is useful and Hitmonchan’s elemental punches are too weak to be that big of a concern (any damage can be recovered back from Mega Draining his second Onix). The Normal attacks are a bit more concerning, but overall Golbat is ok here.
Agatha – It won’t enjoy Dream Eater (easily dealt with using the Pokeflute) or Psychic, but Mega Drain and Poison resistance is handy. This battle is often down to luck with Confuse Ray and how much Agatha switches against you.
Lance – It does significantly worse in Yellow due to Ice Beam, Blizzard and Thunderbolt. Otherwise it will probably depend on level (you’ll need to be quite over-levelled to win alone though).
Blue – In RB you should do ok against Rhydon, Exeggutor, Venusaur, Pidgeot, and Arcanine with a bit of “Take Down missed” luck. In Yellow your best match-ups are Sandslash, Exeggutor, Ninetales and Flareon.
-Additional Comments: Zubat isn’t as bad as it first seems. Bite is acceptable for a little while, and Mega Drain and Leech Life have niche uses and recover HP simultaneously, which is handy. However, the fact is that Golbat is simply not an efficient battler, taking multiple turns to KO most opponents, and unlike other weak Flying types like Farfetch’d it doesn’t even provide any utility by learning Fly! There is just little justification for using this in an efficient run, making it low tier.
-Charmander (Yellow) - High Tier
-Availability: You get it at around the second gym at level 10. It comes under-levelled, but there is a patch of grass nearby containing Bellsprout, Oddish and Venonat, all of which Charmander can beat and all of which give plenty of experience. It does slow your playthrough a bit but it does not take Charmander too long to catch up and it’s worth it in the long run.
-Stats: Charizard’s stats are reasonably balanced. It’s fast, hits hard and can take a hit or two, making it a solid battler.
-Movepool: Its level up movepool is not that great early on. Charmeleon needs Dig. Without it, Charmeleon is quite mediocre until it gets Slash at level 33. This is issue since Dig is a valuable TM, but Charizard is a great user of Dig so don’t think of it as a waste. Charizard only needs Dig and Slash to dominate, and Fly and Flamethrower are mere bonuses.
-Power: Charizard is one of the best in-game Pokémon, powering through opponents with ease. Charmeleon is not quite as powerful which is awkward since it evolves at level 36, but it does well enough to justify waiting for it to evolve.
-Type: It learns Fly and Flamethrower, but Charizard doesn’t even NEED them because Slash and Dig cover everything anyway. Defensively, it has a niche as a Fire type that is immune to Ground. Water, Rock, Ice and Electric weaknesses aren’t helpful but in most battles they are irrelevant because Charizard will kill opponents before they move.
-Match-ups: Lt. Surge – If you have Dig and are at an acceptable level, you will do well here. Without Dig Raichu will simply be too good.
Erika – The sad thing is that Ember is not that powerful despite the type advantage, but the grass resistance should be enough for you to do well.
Koga – Venonat is weak so it shouldn’t be an issue. Fly is super-effective against his whole team and Psychic doesn’t exactly take Charizard down instantly.
Sabrina – Slash deals plenty of damage on her Pokémon’s lower defence stat. AS long as you are at a reasonable level you should be fine.
Blaine – You win with Dig. If Arcanine uses Reflect then use Slash to ignore it!
Giovanni – You beat Dugtrio, as well as Persian due to strength alone. Dig is super-effective against Nidoqueen, Nidoking and Rhydon but you have to be careful around Thunder and Rock Slide.
Lorelei – Charizard is actually weak to Ice in RBY (plus Water obviously) so this isn’t a good match-up. Slash should beat Jynx though.
Bruno – Dig for Onix, but they have Rock Slide. Fighting resistance is helpful for Hitmonlee and Machamp.
Agatha – Dig is great against everything except Golbat, who isn’t that strong anyway. You do well here.
Lance – Its weaknesses to Ice, Electric and Water hurt it, and Aerodactyl is the only Pokémon in the game to resist all of Charizard’s main moves. This isn’t a great match-up for Charizard.
Blue – You should be fine to take on Sandslash, Exeggutor, Ninetales and Flareon, and Alakazam is perfectly beatable thanks to Slash.
-Additional Comments: The main thing that prevents Charmander being Top tier in Yellow is its availability. However, this flaw is made up for by Charizard’s incredible power, making it an excellent choice for an efficient run through Yellow.
-Mr. Mime - High Tier
-Availability: Obtained from a trade (Abra in RB and Clefairy in Yellow). Its level depends on the level of the Pokémon you are trading. Chances are it will be underleveled unless you happen to level up the Pokémon you are going to trade away as you are going. However, the boosted experience allows Mr. Mime to gain levels very quickly and it will catch up to the rest of your team in a flash.
-Stats: Mr. Mime has good Speed and Special, giving it strong battling capabilities. The HP and Defence are low but it isn’t a crippling problem because most opponents will fold before they strike.
-Movepool: Sadly, Mr. Mime has a poor level-up movepool. Confusion is its only decent attack. On the plus side, it can learn Psychic through TM, which is pretty much all it needs. It also gets Thunderbolt, but it isn’t something that Mr. Mime particularly benefits from (although it is its best option against other Psychics).
-Power: Mr. Mime is actually the weakest fully evolved pure-Psychic type, but this is more of a reflection of the quality of the other Psychics rather than Mr. Mime itself. It doesn’t quite OHKO everything with Confusion like Kadabra/Alakazam can but it is still a powerful Pokémon, and when it gets Psychic before Erika it becomes a killing machine.
-Type: Psychic is highly regarded as the best type in RBY. Psychic is super-effective against Fighting and Poison, allowing it to blast through Team Rocket grunt, and it is only resisted by itself.
-Match-ups: Lt. Surge – Unfortunately, Confusion isn’t enough in Yellow. Mega Kick and Mega Punch will kill Mr. Mime too quickly. In RB you should do ok with Voltorb and Pikachu at least.
Erika – Psychic destroys pretty much everything in this whole gym. Tangela can take it better than Gloom/Vileplume and Weepinbell/Victreebel but it can’t do much back.
Koga – Psychic is super-effective against everything and it resists the Psychic attacks being fired back at it in Yellow. It should do great here.
Sabrina – Pretty much a mirror match. The outcome depends on level but Recover gives Kadabra and Alakazam a bit of an edge. You should beat Venomoth in RB easily though.
Blaine – This also depends on level but Mr. Mime’s high special helps it take Flamethrower/Fire Blast. It doesn’t dominate but it can contribute.
Giovanni – Psychic makes short work of Nidoqueen and Nidoking. His other Pokémon have poor Special stats so it is a good choice for this battle.
Lorelei – A neutral match-up overall, although Slowbro and Jynx resist Psychic so they are tricky to take down (note that Slowbro has Amnesia).
Bruno – You win easily here. His fighting Pokémon are doomed to fail and Onix is frail on the special side.
Agatha – Psychic is super-effective against everything. You win unless you get unlucky with confusion damage or something.
Lance – There isn’t really an advantage or a disadvantage type wise. Mr. Mime won’t want to take Hyper Beam too much, but it can take special attacks which is handy in Yellow.
Blue – None of his Pokémon are actually weak to Psychic except Venusaur, so this will come down to stats. You should be able to at least beat (efficiently) Pidgeot, Rhydon, Venusaur, Magneton, Ninetales, Flareon and Vaporeon, though honestly it all depends on level.
-Additional Comments: Technically this is just a worse Alakazam, but it is still a great battler and the massive amount of experience this gains from battling makes it a great choice. Not only does this allow Mr. Mime to grow quickly, it also give more opportunities for its teammates to jump into battle and gain experience too!
-Magnemite - Mid Tier
-Availability: In RB, you can find it in the Power Plant. Wild Magnemite are at a rather low level, but Magneton can be caught at a higher level and require less catch-up time. In Yellow it is obtained sooner just outside the entrance to Rock Tunnel. It will require a bit of grinding but not so much as to completely slow down your playthrough.
-Stats: Magnemite evolves quite quickly into Magneton, who has an impressive 120 Special and is fairly bulky overall. It isn’t the fastest Pokémon around but as long as you are at a good level you will be going first most of the time.
-Movepool: Magneton has a terrible level-up movepool. In fact, you absolutely NEED to give this Thunderbolt for it to be worthwhile. If not, you’ll be using Thundershock for a while until you get the unreliable Thunder. Thankfully, Thunderbolt covers a lot of Pokémon by itself.
-Power: Magneton’s Thunderbolt allows it to OHKO almost anything that doesn’t resist it. Magneton will power through many trainers with ease. However, due to mono-Electric coverage it struggles against Ground types (particularly Rock/Ground types), Grass types and opposing Electric types (the latter 2 groups can survive Thunderbolt and hit back with paralysis).
-Type: Electric gives plenty of coverage, and is particularly powerful against the Water types that appear late game, although the things that resist it appear frequently throughout the game too, lowering its power a bit. Electric isn’t particularly useful defensively. Flying resistance is unnecessary because all the birds are OHKOed, and Electric resistance isn’t helpful because opposing Electric types resist your main attack anyway.
-Match-ups: Erika – You don’t do well here. Her Pokémon take Thunderbolt and hit back with whatever they want.
Koga – RB Koga is a joke. Thunderbolt is strong enough to sweep him. In Yellow, Magneton really benefits from having a high Special, which allows it to take Psychic.
Sabrina – This is basically a battle of the Special stats. If you can paralyse with Thunder Wave or something then this will make this battle a bit easier.
Blaine – No type advantage, but you can win if you have a sufficient level. This is notably easier in RB due to the worse team he has there.
Giovanni – You are quite hopeless here. In Yellow you can at least beat Persian, but everything else walls you (although in RB Rhydon is the only thing with a Ground move so I guess that’s something... or not).
Lorelei – Thunderbolt eats most of her team alive. It is evenly matched with Jynx but watch out for Lovely Kiss in Yellow.
Bruno – You should beat his fighting types, but you should use something else for Onix.
Agatha – Golbat and Arbok should not be a problem to beat. Gengar and Haunter may outspeed and try to confuse and sleep you though.
Lance – You beat Gyarados and Aerodactyl. Dragonair resist Thunderbolt though you may be able to beat them just because they suck so much. Dragonite is beatable unless you have been weakened.
Blue – You beat Pidgeot, Gyarados, Charizard, Blastoise, Cloyster and Vaporeon, and you should be able to take on Alakazam, Arcanine and Ninetales too.
-Additional Comments: Magneton packs incredible power. However, it is severely let down by its necessity for Thunderbolt. If you have it reserved for something else then Magneton is less useful. It also requires support to get around anything that resists Thunderbolt, lowering its killing potential. If you can get around these issues then it is a good choice that will contribute to beating the game efficiently.
-Hitmonchan - Low Tier
-Availability: You can get this as soon as you get to Celadon by heading to Saffron straight away and fighting through the Dojo. This isn’t particularly hard, and Hitmonchan comes at level 30, which should be around what your team is at.
-Stats: 105 Attack is pretty good and it has a decent enough speed for in-game purposes. Its Special is horrible though, which is a shame given its movepool.
-Movepool: Hitmonchan is a case of a Pokémon who has a movepool that doesn’t match its stats. It is the only Pokémon with all 3 elemental punches, but 35 Special makes these completely useless. It has no STAB moves by level up. It absolutely needs TM support to work. Submission is obtained from Celadon, and it gets Body Slam, Mega Punch and Double-Edge to pick from, all of which are powerful enough for that point in the game. Body Slam is the best choice for reliability but it may not be available. It gets Strength later though which is a reasonable substitute.
-Power: Initially it can actually power through weaker opponents using stats alone. As the game goes on, Submission's recoil begins to become a issue and its lack of STAB outside of Submission begins to show. It becomes less useful as a result.
-Type: Submission is its only real STAB and be obtained by TM as soon as you get Hitmonchan, and although it has great power it is inaccurate and deals recoil (which is bad for Hitmonchan’s poor HP stat). Fighting is a bad defensive type overall. Flying and Psychic attacks are common in this game are fairly common, which hurts Hitmonchan as a viable choice.
-Match-ups: Erika – Neutral overall, but it isn’t particularly useful. Her Pokémon can take hits and can strike back with a status move, or just hit hard with a special attack.
Koga – In RB, his Pokémon are bulky and can poison you, but otherwise this isn’t a particularly bad match-up (a full solo might be a bit much though). In Yellow he gets screwed over by Psychic, though he might take down a Venonat!
Sabrina – I shouldn’t have to explain why this is a bad match-up. Hitmonchan just dies here and is completely useless.
Blaine – Hitmonchan is crippled by its poor Special. Flamethrower and Fire Blast do tons of damage to it, making it a mediocre choice at best for this battle.
Giovanni – Dugtrio and Persian can be beaten due to frailty. Nidoqueen and Nidoking are tougher, particularly in Yellow where they have Thunder. Rhyhorn and Rhydon are weak to Submission. It doesn’t flat out lose here like in other gyms but it isn’t particularly great either.
Lorelei – Well you should have Submission now, but it still doesn’t do that well. Submission is so risky and those Ice and Water attacks will hurt.
Bruno – Mirror Match, except for his Onix who you can beat with Submission. Beating everthing else depends on level really.
Agatha – Holy crap you are awful here. Gengar and Haunter are IMMUNE TO ALL OF YOUR PHYSICAL MOVES! None of the elemental punches are going to help you win. Arbok and Golbat resist fighting but can be beaten with whatever normal move you have. You will probably get statused though.
Lance – You might beat Aerodactyl, Dragonair or Dragonite because their movesets suck, but Gyarados has Hydro Pump. In Yellow things are tough because everything except Aerodactyl has special attacks, but Aerodactyl has Fly anyway.
Blue – You stand a chance against Rhydon, Exeggutor and Sandslash, but everything else is a risky match-up due to special/super-effective moves within their movesets.
-Additional Comments: Hitmonchan started off decently thanks to its high starting level and above average attack, but it became quite poor in the long run. Its horrible movepool, lack of RELIABLE STAB, terrible match-ups during key battles and that awful Special really work against Hitmonchan and I just can’t see why anyone would use this for an efficient run.
-Poliwag - Mid Tier
-Availability: You can catch this as a Poliwag or a Poliwhirl with a rod. You need to beat Pokémon Tower to get the rods, so you can get it mid-game at the earliest. In RB its highest level is in the mid 20s, but in Yellow you can catch it as high as level 40 (you need 4 badges to reach the water on route 23 though). You can then evolve it straight away (or level it up for Body Slam)
-Stats: Poliwrath is basically a middleman. All of its stats are decent without being particularly outstanding. This allows it to be a solid Pokémon on the battlefield.
-Movepool: Poliwrath has a great movepool. It is notable that it has Body Slam in its movepool, which means it can learn Body Slam without using up the TM. It learns BubbleBeam/Surf, Ice Beam/Blizzard, Psychic, Earthquake and Submission from TM/HM, allowing it to gain excellent coverage. It also has Amnesia if you don’t mind boosting.
-Power: Poliwrath just doesn’t have the stats to power through absolutely everything, but the awesome coverage allows it to be useful during many parts of the game. It will always contribute, though it won’t do anything amazing.
-Type: Water is a great STAB, and although Poliwrath’s Special isn’t as high as it could be, Surf should be sufficient to gain at least a 2HKO on most things. Its typing is unique, but to be honest the Fighting type hurts it more than it helps it, adding Psychic and Flying weaknesses in addition to the Electric and Grass ones.
-Match-ups: Koga – You should be fine in RB, especially if you gave it Psychic, but in Yellow you have a Psychic weakness to deal with.
Sabrina – You’re a Fighting type. This is a Psychic gym. It won’t end well.
Blaine – You do great here. Surf will deal with his Pokémon nicely.
Giovanni – Basically the same as Blaine, but you have to watch for Thunder from Nidoqueen and Nidoking. You should be able to take at least 1 though.
Lorelei – An even match. If you have Submission you can hit her Ice types harder than they can hit back. Watch for Psychic from Slowbro in Yellow.
Bruno – Onix dies to Surf and the Hitmons have horrible Specials. This should be easy.
Agatha – Being weak to Psychic isn’t helpful, particularly in Yellow (one of her Gengar has Psychic in Yellow). It’s more manageable in RB as long as you don’t stay asleep for too long. If you have Earthquake then it should be effective here, and Golbat is weak to Ice Beam.
Lance – Ice Beam is a huge help against the Dragons and Aerodactyl, though there are better choices are Gyarados. Yellow is harder thanks to Fly and Thunderbolt.
Blue – You can actually take on anything except Alakazam (and perhaps Venusaur) in RB, particularly Pidgeot, Rhydon, Exeggutor, Charizard and Arcanine. In Yellow, you should be fine against everything except Jolteon, Magneton and Alakazam.
-Additional Comments: It just doesn’t have enough power for high tier, and it suffers a bit in RB for availability, but regardless it is a decent choice that sets itself apart from other water types with its impressive movepool. It provides a Surfer that can also battle well, and it has great match-ups against important trainers towards the end of the game.
@hitmonchan: Submission is actually available long before Hitmonchan is obtained, as you can buy it for $3000 at the Celadon Department Store. it's still pretty bad though, since Fighting is generally bad in-game.
Dig isn't a move that you should be using most of the time because of the 2-turn execution, really. If you have a faster way of disposing of the enemy, do it.
I do agree that Thunderbolt is generally better, though neutral moves off a decent stat should have no trouble dealing with waters and bird trainers (come on, bird trainers are pathetic, especially when you have a level advantage). It starts to really shine in the E4 though, letting you nail Lorelei's mons, Gyarados and rival's Pidgeot. Earthquake/Ice Beam/Psychic are generally more useful than electric moves there, though.
I do agree that Thunderbolt is generally better, though neutral moves off a decent stat should have no trouble dealing with waters and bird trainers (come on, bird trainers are pathetic, especially when you have a level advantage). It starts to really shine in the E4 though, letting you nail Lorelei's mons, Gyarados and rival's Pidgeot. Earthquake/Ice Beam/Psychic are generally more useful than electric moves there, though.
The Earthquake TM is available for beating the 8th gym as opposed to Cerulean with Dig, you won't be getting that for a long while. Until that happens, unless you have a Pokemon that learns Earthquake naturally (or is named Marowak which has all the other Ground attacks in the game pfft), you'll have to settle for using Dig as a Ground attack/STAB. It may be a two-turn attack, but in Gen I this is an acceptable proposition given the fewer amount of attacks available in the game. And considering that Dig has a fantastic distribution, it is one of the more in-demand TMs in the game.
You're thinking of the remakes here. In RBY, Giovanni gives you the Fissure TM, and you find the Earthquake TM somewhere in Silph Co.
I just checked this in my game and you're right. God dammit I wish I'd known that before. That would have made my Hitmonchan more powerful ugh. I don't think it changes its tier placement at all though. Hitmonchan just can't afford to risk using it repeatedly (nothing can really). In regards to match-ups it only really improves things against Giovanni and Blaine since the other gym leaders it will face are resistant to Fighting.
Anyway I've had to reword parts of Hitmonchan's analysis to account for this so hopefully it's ok now.
yeah fighting is kind of shit. the best fighting type in the game is probably either Poliwrath (because his movepool is actually kind of good due to being Water) or Hitmonlee (due to having Meditate and getting Jump Kick and later HJK which is a lot better)
Also while Dig is 2-turn it also has 100 BP, and that power for earlygame is really helpful since even 2 Scratches won't outdamage Dig. Dig is also not that 'highly contested' when literally only 18 fully-evolved Pokemon get it, and for when you get it only 8 pokemon you can get up to that point can learn it (Charmeleon, Wartortle, Paras, Geodude, Kadabra, Sandshrew, Ekans and Mankey), of which Charmeleon is probably the best choice for it.
Also while Dig is 2-turn it also has 100 BP, and that power for earlygame is really helpful since even 2 Scratches won't outdamage Dig. Dig is also not that 'highly contested' when literally only 18 fully-evolved Pokemon get it, and for when you get it only 8 pokemon you can get up to that point can learn it (Charmeleon, Wartortle, Paras, Geodude, Kadabra, Sandshrew, Ekans and Mankey), of which Charmeleon is probably the best choice for it.
Ok a few things to note.
Early game Bulbasaur is basically early game Venasaur, simply because is evolves so early. This thing levels insanely quick and destroys most of the trainers up until Lt Surge with Tackle and Razor Leaf (it isn't too reliant on Body Slam yet). I will keep reporting how it's going, but so far so good.
Another thing worth noting is that once you beat Lt Surge, Voltorb becomes pretty beasty. He's definitely not Top because he can barely touch Ground types, and it is completely screwed against Rock/Ground types too. Grass types also give it major problems as they status like anyone's business. Still, anything that it hits neutrally with the Thunderbolt TM, it hits hard and fast.
About to get Horsea and Hitmonlee, stay tuned.
Edit: At level 32, Electrode completely sweeps the Fighting Gym with Thunderbolt. Critical hits all over the place. And if you don't think that's much, the lowest level in the gym is level 31, and the highest is 37.
Early game Bulbasaur is basically early game Venasaur, simply because is evolves so early. This thing levels insanely quick and destroys most of the trainers up until Lt Surge with Tackle and Razor Leaf (it isn't too reliant on Body Slam yet). I will keep reporting how it's going, but so far so good.
Another thing worth noting is that once you beat Lt Surge, Voltorb becomes pretty beasty. He's definitely not Top because he can barely touch Ground types, and it is completely screwed against Rock/Ground types too. Grass types also give it major problems as they status like anyone's business. Still, anything that it hits neutrally with the Thunderbolt TM, it hits hard and fast.
About to get Horsea and Hitmonlee, stay tuned.
Edit: At level 32, Electrode completely sweeps the Fighting Gym with Thunderbolt. Critical hits all over the place. And if you don't think that's much, the lowest level in the gym is level 31, and the highest is 37.
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