That's all well and good, but I was under the impression that the standard convention is that we have a proposal, it is then discussed in depth to evaluate both sides of the argument, and then a vote is held after the discussion has come to a reasonable eqillibrium so that people have had a chance to read up on the issue and think about it in depth. This is not a proposal, it is a poll, and it is presented in a blatantly misleading fashion. Such an important matter should not be left to something so hasty and I strongly believe the results of this poll are significantly affected by the presentation of the information in the OP. If you are so convinced level 50 is genuinely superior, why are you opposed to a impartially presented re-poll? Like I said, it would be important to have things looked over by both sides to ensure the new OP was an impartial as possible. If that skews things away from level 50 voting then clearly my point that voting is affected by the bias present in the OP must be true. If it does not, the vote will play out and the option smogon truly believes is the best, having considered all the facts, will be the winner.
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Poll for our default simulator tiering level
- Thread starter Aldaron
- Start date
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I second this. The meta games already have to be redone with the new generation, with the new Pokemon, stat changes, new moves, new mechanics, ect. It wouldn't be that difficult to create a tier system for lv 50 and lv 100. This lets the people who prefer to play on the 3DS build around the wifi meta-game, and the people who want to stick with tradition can do so.
I apologize if I sound rude, but brushing off the concerns of people who battle differently than you do (ie. on the 3DS rather than the simulator), makes you sound like an arrogant "stop having fun" person.
Sorry, I would have responded to this sooner, but I had to go outside and shoot a rabid raccoon.
If you want another example, I can give another one. I'll use Landorus-T as an example this time, one of the best Terrakion checks/counters in the game. The standard Landorus-T pivot set has exactly enough bulk to always avoid the 2HKO from Terrakion's CB Stone Edge after Stealth Rock and exactly enough speed to beat positive base 70s. At level 50, it is not only 2HKOd by Terrakion after Stealth Rock ~5.5% of the time, but it now only speed ties with positive base 70s. It now can no longer be as solid of a Terrakion check and still beat that important speed benchmark. This is an example not only of the power creep involved with lowering everything to level 50, but also of the changes to EV application and speed tiers that didn't exist before.
Voted 100
As far as I'm concerned, the point of a simulator is to simulate the mechanics of the game as closely as possible. Not necessarily the rule set. Things like tiers, clauses, and the various other things that we find on Smogon, simply do not exist in normal Wifi battles, unless previously arranged between two players. Level 50 is not the only option, so I think that sticking with the tradition of using the Pokemon "at their full potential" is a lot more interesting and fun than change for the sake of change.
Some people might argue that 5% is not a lot, but one needs to remember that some Pokemon survive 2HKOs or fail to survive simply by weather or not they have Leftovers. If a 6.25% difference is considered relevant, than I would say the 1-4% different in damage is. (Notably the higher end of the range.)
The OP might be a proposal, but it certainly does come across as quite misleading, and while it's true the responsibility is on the voter to be informed, this thread is huge, the average user isn't going to read it all, and many of them will just vote according to the OP rather than making an informed decision. It may be their responsibility, but it's not going to happen with an open vote like this.
As far as I'm concerned, the point of a simulator is to simulate the mechanics of the game as closely as possible. Not necessarily the rule set. Things like tiers, clauses, and the various other things that we find on Smogon, simply do not exist in normal Wifi battles, unless previously arranged between two players. Level 50 is not the only option, so I think that sticking with the tradition of using the Pokemon "at their full potential" is a lot more interesting and fun than change for the sake of change.
Some people might argue that 5% is not a lot, but one needs to remember that some Pokemon survive 2HKOs or fail to survive simply by weather or not they have Leftovers. If a 6.25% difference is considered relevant, than I would say the 1-4% different in damage is. (Notably the higher end of the range.)
The OP might be a proposal, but it certainly does come across as quite misleading, and while it's true the responsibility is on the voter to be informed, this thread is huge, the average user isn't going to read it all, and many of them will just vote according to the OP rather than making an informed decision. It may be their responsibility, but it's not going to happen with an open vote like this.
There is no winner. This poll decides nothing. The tiering staff will make a decision one way or another, and this is just to collect data. There are identical polls in other places on the site too. The discussion here is much more important than any poll, as it shows why people want what they want. Someone wanting 100 because they hate change will not be taken as seriously as someone wanting it for actual thought out reasons. Same thing for level 50. Actual numbers mean very little, since anyone smart knows people are change adverse, and what they say they want does not necessarily have any correlation to what is good for the community. Maybe you think the poll was presented unfairly, but that is completely irrelevant to the real intent of the thread.
Data is worthless if it's manipulated.
Is there any justification for not at least editing the offending parts out of the OP? Any at all?
The wifi meta game and smogon ARE THE SAME THING, at least as long as wifi has been around.
This would be the first time that they would be different.
The clear path is to cap at 50 and stay on that track. People are hiding behind tradition as an excuse to be different for the sake of it.
Its not sims vs wifi, FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES THESE ARE THE SAME THING.
If you go online/battle finder and get someones fc its understood you're specifying a tier and if the person wants to be a spedster and bring 6 mewtwos you power button and tell them not to be a retard.
This has turned into a war between sims and wifi talking about whos better than the other, which is.laughable.
Wifi and Showdown metas are the same thing, showdown is just a quicker painless means of access with a rating ladder.
The term "local battle" as a sims goL has been thrown around, thats synonomous with wifi now, this isnt 1998 .
This would be the first time that they would be different.
The clear path is to cap at 50 and stay on that track. People are hiding behind tradition as an excuse to be different for the sake of it.
Its not sims vs wifi, FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES THESE ARE THE SAME THING.
If you go online/battle finder and get someones fc its understood you're specifying a tier and if the person wants to be a spedster and bring 6 mewtwos you power button and tell them not to be a retard.
This has turned into a war between sims and wifi talking about whos better than the other, which is.laughable.
Wifi and Showdown metas are the same thing, showdown is just a quicker painless means of access with a rating ladder.
The term "local battle" as a sims goL has been thrown around, thats synonomous with wifi now, this isnt 1998 .
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1. WOW, that is the first time i think i have EVER heard someone say/type that, thats different O.o. Did it use the rage attack or thrash?
2. That is actually a decent point, but speed tiers are changing anyway thanks to new pokemon and many older pokemon getting a boost.
The Smogon metagame has clauses, and tiers, and all sorts of things that the wifi metagame doesn't have. Also, the Smogon metagames have been established for far longer than wifi has even been a thing.
You're wrong.
The only thing that is the same is that they both were set at level 100.
"Anybody who doesn't agree with me hates change," is really getting old.
You're wrong.
The only thing that is the same is that they both were set at level 100.
"Anybody who doesn't agree with me hates change," is really getting old.
I'm not invested in either side but "opinions" like this derail the whole argument.
Level 50 caps do not prevent the use of any Pokemon or moves. The LEvel 50 cap is not a hard limit; Pokemon above that, like a Level 55 Dragonite or a Level 70 whatever with X move is scaled down to level 50, not banned entirely.
This poll is functionally useless because some people don't actually understand what's being proposed. Meanwhile the arguments in the thread are going around in circles...
This thread really isn't achieving anything.
They are talking about random Wi-fi, where Smogon's rules and tiers are not enforced (or cared about by many of the people) at all. Not even the Sleep clause or Double Team Clause, both of which are used as common courtesy by most competitive battlers, Smogon or no, are used.
The Stuff on the forums here are generally accepted to be basically the same thing and you CAN use level 100(or whatever you like) there since it is a challenge, not random
I am considering proposing to Aldaron via IRC that an alternative discussion thread be created for the proposal of having two separate metagames, one at level 50 and one at level 100, with level 100 remaining smogon's primary focus and level 50 adhering to the bans and format of global link. I am convinced this is superior to either single option by a large degree, because even if level 50 makes it easier for wifiers to adapt to the smogon metagame, our wildly different banlist and tiering system is still going to impede the transition of knowledge from wifi->smogon. However, given the overall irrelevance of this poll, perhaps the subject has been debated plenty already. I would appreciate some alternative opinions on this matter.
The Rotom-appliances, Shaymin-S, and Giratina-O could not be used on wifi back in generation 4. That was a much bigger gap between the wifi and simulator metagames than this proposal, and from what I can tell (I only lurked, both now and then) the decision to allow them on simulators met with widespread approval, wifi non-complicance be damned.
So no, wifi and Smogon have not always been the same thing.
No more than in Gen 5. And just like then, just like always (except Sleep Clause), Smogon's ruleset is not enforced by the cartridge but is feasible to run on cartridge at will.
I realised that was dumb after I posted it but everyone ignored it so I didn't bother editing. I'll go fix it now. There are other reasons I'd prefer Lv100 but there's not much point parroting everyone else, that's what the poll is for.
Actually, it just sat there and stared at me. Raccoons usually run away, but a rabid raccoon often will not, so that's what made it so creepy.
Speed tiers will obviously change to accommodate new Pokemon by default, but that's not the only point of the example. Heck, even if Landorus-T could still beat positive base 70s at level 50, the main point would still stand. With the power creep at level 50, Pokemon like Landorus-T will have to invest more in bulk just to keep checking the same Pokemon that they used to handle just fine. More bulk investment takes away from other stats, which could include a certain damage or speed benchmark (as in the case of Landorus-T). Even if the standard pivot set still outsped positive base 70s at level 50, it would still have to take away from that just to escape the 2HKO from CB Terrakion after Stealth Rock, and so it would lose that important advantage.
Well, it's good you realised. I'm willing to bet there are are plenty of silent voters who cast their vote on this precise logic though, so I feel like clarification is important.
As people have said, a simulator is to simulate pokemon battles, but avoids the time it would take to train them to that point. Now, the question is, can I battle someone without picking the auto-level option? I can? Then that is what we'll go with.
Smogons metagame isn't there to reflect wifi, or the vgc, it is for singles, 6 pokemon battles, and while in-game you'd have to spend the time to breed perfect IVs, EV train and level to 100, with a simulator you don't, so just because it's "difficult" to get 6 to level 100 for a cartridge battle with auto-leveling disabled, doesn't matter in the slightest.
Now, if it was impossible to battle someone using level 100 pokemon, then I wouldn't oppose a switch, even if I didn't like that it effects speed tiers and the EV breakpoints.
Smogons metagame isn't there to reflect wifi, or the vgc, it is for singles, 6 pokemon battles, and while in-game you'd have to spend the time to breed perfect IVs, EV train and level to 100, with a simulator you don't, so just because it's "difficult" to get 6 to level 100 for a cartridge battle with auto-leveling disabled, doesn't matter in the slightest.
Now, if it was impossible to battle someone using level 100 pokemon, then I wouldn't oppose a switch, even if I didn't like that it effects speed tiers and the EV breakpoints.
Me - and I'm sure many others - would like to just have one tier, I mean would it really be nessecary to split every tier for a vote that was leaning towards keeping it how it's been? I don't think so.
IMHO we should stick with lv 100. I have only been playing since the start of gen V so tradition really isn't an argument that concerns me. I'm mostly interested in the math and logistics.
1. As many people have already stated there is a slight power creep, thereby slightly reducing the viability of stall by making certain 2KHOs into OHKOs and so on.
2. EVs become less consistent and generally much more difficult to figure out, at lv 100 it's EV/4 at lv 50 I have been told by other posts in this thread that it depends on base stats
3. While I don't think that you can argue that it will change the metagame due to the metagame not yet being established for gen VI I do think that it is important to note that Smogon has a lot of resources that are extremely dependent on the metagame being at lv 100. These resources may not take an extremely long time to recreate, but it is important to note the extra effort involved.
4. While this argument is not mathematical or logistical I think that it's just more fun to play with pokemon at their full potential power.
Tl;Dr:
Slight power creep, more complicated EVs, slight logistical issues in transfer, LV 100 is more fun.
1. As many people have already stated there is a slight power creep, thereby slightly reducing the viability of stall by making certain 2KHOs into OHKOs and so on.
2. EVs become less consistent and generally much more difficult to figure out, at lv 100 it's EV/4 at lv 50 I have been told by other posts in this thread that it depends on base stats
3. While I don't think that you can argue that it will change the metagame due to the metagame not yet being established for gen VI I do think that it is important to note that Smogon has a lot of resources that are extremely dependent on the metagame being at lv 100. These resources may not take an extremely long time to recreate, but it is important to note the extra effort involved.
4. While this argument is not mathematical or logistical I think that it's just more fun to play with pokemon at their full potential power.
Tl;Dr:
Slight power creep, more complicated EVs, slight logistical issues in transfer, LV 100 is more fun.
Shroomisaur
Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.
I strongly agree with this. There's plenty of arguing in this thread, and it was a pain to read through because it really had nothing to do with how Smogon simulates battles. Rules that we're all familiar with, Evasion Clause for example, aren't in the standard game rules, but Smogon implements them anyway to make the best competitive Pokemon experience possible.
So if a simulator's purpose is to make the most competitive battles, and lv100 is the best place for it, then that's all that needs to be said. I guess the biggest problem was just how the question was posed to begin with.
Smogon's purpose has always been to simulate local battles. We allowed Rotom-A / Giratina-O / Shaymin-S in Gen IV (though the last two were ubers.)
The fact that wi-fi battles have an option to be scaled to level 50 shouldn't mean we're forced to play at level 50. Besides, scaling to level 50 prevents level 1 movesets from being used, and I'm a strong proponent that everything available to the player should be usable bar stuff we specifically block to avoid imbalance.
The fact that wi-fi battles have an option to be scaled to level 50 shouldn't mean we're forced to play at level 50. Besides, scaling to level 50 prevents level 1 movesets from being used, and I'm a strong proponent that everything available to the player should be usable bar stuff we specifically block to avoid imbalance.
I wouldn't mind keeping the standard Lv100 battles while having an option for Lv50 battles. Why does it only have to be 1 or the other? doubles, VGC, 50, 100, random 1v1... Let all of them be options and whichever is naturally used the most will do so
Please, everyone be aware that these rules would not change level 1 move sets. Options exist in game to level every Pokemon above level 50 down and keep all others under level 50 at their level. This would be the option we'd be using.
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