Project Mono-Type: Water

[marilli]

• Arguments such as "Water loses to X sweeper every time!" can be applied to almost every single type, and losing to Celebi is not as serious a problem, as, say, Dragonite, Scizor, or Terrakion.

Not really. See Gastrodon covering the Electric-weakness for the Water-monotype teams? It's kinda hard to get swept by an Electric-sweeper with a monotype water team, given that you have Gastrodon in your team. Similarly, mono-Electric teams would have Zapdos and Rotom-W to negate their shared ground-type weakness. If they have a bulky variant of Rotom-W, they're protecting themselves against a potential Landorus sweep or something like that. Steel-monotype has Heatran and Skarmory to cover the shared Fire or Ground-type weakness.

I know typing isn't everything, but it sure counts for a lot. Not all monotype teams have to get 6-0'd by a [Insert threat with a type advantage]. Well, I guess Celebi isn't *that* common, so you certainly can get up high in the ladder even with such a weakness. It's BW after all, and choosing to have a single, fatal, yet uncommon weakness might be viable if your team can compensate by matching up well against other mons.

 

[Suburvia]

Not really. See Gastrodon covering the Electric-weakness for the Water-monotype teams? It's kinda hard to get swept by an Electric-sweeper with a monotype water team, given that you have Gastrodon in your team. Similarly, mono-Electric teams would have Zapdos and Rotom-W to negate their shared ground-type weakness. If they have a bulky variant of Rotom-W, they're protecting themselves against a potential Landorus sweep or something like that. Steel-monotype has Heatran and Skarmory to cover the shared Fire or Ground-type weakness.

I know typing isn't everything, but it sure counts for a lot. Not all monotype teams have to get 6-0'd by a [Insert threat with a type advantage]. Well, I guess Celebi isn't *that* common, so you certainly can get up high in the ladder even with such a weakness. It's BW after all, and choosing to have a single, fatal, yet uncommon weakness might be viable if your team can compensate by matching up well against other mons.

I wasn't trying to imply with my comment that all monotype teams are easily swept by a single Pokemon that can abuse the team's weakness, merely that that is a weak argument here because it can be applied to any type, thereby not contributing anything to any side of any argument.

I know that every type has ways to get around its weaknesses, as you said. That is, in fact, one of the most important things you'll have to think about when building a monotype team.

 

[Quaily]

the best aspect of water is the lightning+grass combination that you would need to perfectly counter it is virtually unheard of.

psychic for example has jirachi+latios which perfectly cover each others weaknesses right? it would appear so, except volcorona can hit both of them for SE damage.

 

[Suburvia]

the best aspect of water is the lightning+grass combination that you would need to perfectly counter it is virtually unheard of.

psychic for example has jirachi+latios which perfectly cover each others weaknesses right? it would appear so, except volcorona can hit both of them for SE damage.

The second half of this post highlights another one of water's fantastic attributes: It is not inherently/particularly weak to any of the metagame's top sweepers, bar NP Celebi, now that Thundurus is gone. Meanwhile, Rock, Ice, and Dark are all weak to Fighting, which, with Terrakion in the picture, is a terrible weakness to have. Ground and Fire are both weak to Water, and though there's no single Water type sweeper in the vein of Thundurus, Volcarona, or Excadrill, this is obviously an atrocious weakness to have, with Politoed and Rotom-W among others running (floating?) around. Grass is ripped to shreds by Volcarona, being weak to both of its STABs.

Just another reason Water would be a better first choice; you don't have to constantly worry about a single top tier sweeper running through your team all the time. This makes both battling and team building easier, as you don't have to dedicate several teamslots to countering a specific sweeper or play mindgames just to preserve your only counter.

 

[M BLADE]

Man, i must suck. Because Mono Fire was one of the best monotypes i could ever use, grabbing lots of wins consecutively... without even using Ninetales at all!
And damn, my mono water sucked REALLY bad.
Of course, all that on UU...


I would say the easiest ones to work with are Psychic,Water (oh, the irony) and Ground. Poison, maybe.

 

[Suburvia]

Man, i must suck. Because Mono Fire was one of the best monotypes i could ever use, grabbing lots of wins consecutively... without even using Ninetales at all!
And damn, my mono water sucked REALLY bad.
Of course, all that on UU...


I would say the easiest ones to work with are Psychic,Water (oh, the irony) and Ground. Poison.

Psychic has serious issues with Tyranitar and Scizor, both in the top 5 of usage stats. Poison has to worry about everything with Earthquake, which is a ton of stuff, not to mention the now prominent Psychic types (Latis, Alakazam, Reuniclus, Jirachi, etc.).

Ground vs. Water is more debatable, and some of the arguments have been outlined already.

 

[typon77]

My best monotype team was bug........ jk..
I ran i pretty successful mono-steel team in Gen 4. Theres a lot of diversity for steel types in OU, as theres offensive and defensive, and physically based and specially based. I found that Heatran and Skarmory basically had to be on them. Lucario works well, as its unpredictable and can attack on either side of the spectrum. Agility Metagross was on it I think, but that was in Gen 4 when Metagross was really good..... RIP Metagross... Magnezone is good too...

For Steel, theres at least one poke that can handle each of steels weaknesses.

Water also seems good. Lots of options plus rain to help it out

Mono-dragon is great offensively.... Dragonite is the most defensive though and no hazards hurts. Starmie with Ice Beam rapes dragons.....

Poison... nuff said

I'm also curious as to how mono-normal would work out. Anybody every tried that??

 

[M BLADE]

Psychic is easy to cover though. It's typing is paired with nearly everything, you have a large amount of pokes to work with, some having extreme stats (Doexys-S for speed, Cresselia for defenses, Medicham, Alakazam, Latios, Reuniclus for attack... Assist Power... )

Besides, i said easy to make, which it is.

 

[Mygavolt]

My best monotype team was bug........ jk..
I ran i pretty successful mono-steel team in Gen 4. Theres a lot of diversity for steel types in OU, as theres offensive and defensive, and physically based and specially based. I found that Heatran and Skarmory basically had to be on them. Lucario works well, as its unpredictable and can attack on either side of the spectrum. Agility Metagross was on it I think, but that was in Gen 4 when Metagross was really good..... RIP Metagross... Magnezone is good too...

For Steel, theres at least one poke that can handle each of steels weaknesses.

Water also seems good. Lots of options plus rain to help it out

Mono-dragon is great offensively.... Dragonite is the most defensive though and no hazards hurts. Starmie with Ice Beam rapes dragons.....

Poison... nuff said

I'm also curious as to how mono-normal would work out. Anybody every tried that??

I have. It was a rather half-baked team, though, featuring Braviary, Miltank, Sawsbuck, Smeargle, Swellow, and Ursaring. Basically, a purely physical team with utility in Smeargle, who is the only Rapid Spinner you'd want to use (I mean, who uses Spinda?) If you want a special sweeper, though, I'd recommend Porygon-Z. Try Chansey/Blissey or Porygon2 for walls. Miltank can be a wall too, and gets Heal Bell. Mine wasn't, though...

 

[Dan Dan]

Flying is another decent choice, heavy offense being the easiest playstyle for it to adapt to. I'm pretty sure you could get away with a couple, maybe 3 CB Brave Bird kamikaze mons on a flying-mono just because your opponent's defense won't be able to keep up with the damage output. The likes of Crobat, Staraptor, Swellow, Dodrio etc can do this for you and all can learn U-turn for keeping the momentum (except Dodrio :(). This is completely ignoring those Dragon/Flying types and the beast that is Gyarados, all of whom can slot in and beast through entire teams.

Obviously things that'll shut it down are hazards/Sandstorm, boltbeam (ice shard esp.) and teams packing multiple bulky steels...that said, only Skarmory and possible Jirachi will be able to recover off anything against you. You can't run a rapid spinner since no flying types learn it (unless you play old school '1 wildcard' mono-teams), but there is Xatu to bounce back predicted hazards, and Sigilyph with Magic Guard. You'll probably need some defensive pivots, Gliscor, Skarmory and Zapdos all have good bulk to use Roost well or phaze.

 

[UncleFinger]

Technically, you could run Delibird for spinning. Of course, you probably would lose for using Delibird in the first place.

 

[Birkal]

I'm going to refer to Ice Typing since it hasn't been brought up yet. Methinks a very effective team could be made if given lots of thought.

Weaknesses

• Weak to Stealth Rock
• Weak to Fire, Rock, Fighting, and Steel (four common attacking types)
• Only resistant to one attack type: Ice
• Not very diverse secondary typing

Solutions/Advantages

• Play off weaknesses using secondary typing. Walrein and Kyurem put a stop to Fire-type attacks while Froslass won't take any damage from Fighting-type attacks. Mamoswine doesn't have as many problems switching in due to taking only neutral damage from Stealth Rock, while Rotom-F can tank Bullet Punches from Scizor. Cyrogonal learns Rapid Spin and has significant Special bulk.
• Use resistances wisely. Abomasnow, Rotom-F, and Kyurem arguably have the best resistances, but that is up for debate.
• Hail is an awesome weather type that is really anti-metagame. Mamoswine and Froslass can abuse Snow Cloak, while hard hitters like Rotom-F and Kyurem can decimate opponents with 100% Blizzard. Stallrein can Toxic stall a variety of opponents.
• Ice is a fantastic offensive type and hits hard from both sides of the spectrum. Mamoswine, Weavile, and Abomasnow can hit hard physically while Kyurem, Rotom-F, and Cyrogonal take care of the special side.

Ice-type teams can take on lots of unique attributes to help them gain an edge to victory. They are a weak defensive type, but their offensive power is one of the best. They get plenty of toys to play with (Spikes, Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, Will-O-Wisp, the list goes on) to play some interesting mind games. I'll be interested to see how that team develops!


As a side note, I really wish this topic was a community actually BUILDING the team. It could help us learn a lot about the metagame since we all have a variety of perspectives to take. I'm sure that many users would be on board with creating all seventeen teams together. I hope that's the direction this topic takes, but I s'pose it's at the topic creator's discretion.

 

[mamoswineFTW]

There are also other options for Stealth Rock-weak teams, one that I actually use in a number of my teams: stop it from coming on the field at all, via Magic Coat.

The distribution of this move is varied, and only available to Gen IV pokemon. Here's a list:

Ice Type: Jynx
Flying Type: Drifblim, Noctowl, Togekiss, Xatu (ability)
Fire Type: Infernape
Bug Type: None, but spinners are available

I've bolded those I think may be somewhat useful, though apart from Xatu the users must be on the field before the opponent attempts to use SR. However, with Team Preview it should be somewhat simple to predict when their hazard setter will do so. However, one also has to justify the use of a moveslot for Magic Coat.

Still, this is just a suggestion as to one possibility.

 

[Showsni]

There are also other options for Stealth Rock-weak teams, one that I actually use in a number of my teams: stop it from coming on the field at all, via Magic Coat.

The distribution of this move is varied, and only available to Gen IV pokemon. Here's a list:

Ice Type: Jynx
Flying Type: Drifblim, Noctowl, Togekiss, Xatu (ability)
Fire Type: Infernape
Bug Type: None, but spinners are available

I've bolded those I think may be somewhat useful, though apart from Xatu the users must be on the field before the opponent attempts to use SR. However, with Team Preview it should be somewhat simple to predict when their hazard setter will do so. However, one also has to justify the use of a moveslot for Magic Coat.

Still, this is just a suggestion as to one possibility.

Of course, you can also just use Taunt to stop Rocks going up, and it has a wider distribution than Magic Coat.

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

Personally steels are my favorite type, and I think they would be fantastic.

Steels are well known for being among the best defensively inclined beasts in the game, with numerous resistances and high defenses. They are also quite offensively powerful, with their only downside being speed. There is lots of variety in steel, from psychic-metagross to water-empoleon and grass-ferrothorn. Steels are weak to fire, fighting, ground, and magnezone. However, most steels have attacks to completely destroy magnezone with (fire heatran to metagross earthquake). Heatran and empoleon are magnificent special walls that fire isn't a bane to. Metagross shrugs off fighting attacks, skarmory and bronzong laugh at ground. They can all hit hard, with empoleon even being able to tank a thunderbolt from magnezone and do over 50% damage back with Torrent boosted scald. The secondary types are also great for variety. Water is a common neutral answer to kill steels with, but empoleon and ferrothorn laugh at waters. Steels can even be speedy if tank's aren't your thing, from Agiligross to Scarftran.

I <3 steel.

 

[cornYBird]

Well I love to run a mono-dragon team, especially with all the new toys we got this gen with haxorus, hydreigon, kyurem etc.

Pros:
Only one resist: Steel
High BST
Resist FWG core
Strong in both physical and special

Cons:
Weakness to dragons and ice
Common dragon/flying typing gives stealth rock weakness
Overall bad defensive pairings (ei ice/dragon flying/dragon)
Bad support movepool (no entry hazards)

Mono dragon is a great hyper offence team. Also access to some of the most powerful stab moves in the game is a plus as well. In fact I got to rank 210 with just a team full of cb outrage abusers. Dragons true bane is its weakness to itself and neutrality to all forms of priority. O and dragon says FU to all those weather teams out there, except for sand. Although with exadrill gone sand is much less threatening.

 

[Little Battler]

Mono Bug is pretty decent actually. They have great walls in the form of bug/steel types, which only has one (albeit crippling) weakness, much akin to the annoying water/ground types. With the advent of 5th gen, they also gain massive offensive presence in Volcarona, arguably Galvantula as well, and Genesect when it gets released. That's not even mentioning old mons like Scizor and Heracross. For support, it has the tested and proven Forretress which can provide rapid spin support, very much appreciated since most bug types are weak to rocks. Perhaps the one most crippling weakness of a mono-bug team is the lack of a fire resist, and that its defenses gets utterly raped by any decent fire types, being 4x weak to that type. It also has no way to reliably counter fire types, lacking pokemon of the right type combination to fight fires (Armaldo? come on...). A rain dance team with HP water on a few members can be quite viable, as the team itself works without rain, only much more vulnerable to fire.

 

[doublel]

Can't shuckle help stall some fire attacks?

 

[UncleFinger]

The main problem with Shuckle is that it gets worn down over time very easily if you use it to sponge random hits from Fire and other types your other guys can't handle, since it has no recovery other than Rest. If it uses Rest, it becomes setup fodder for random things, and if you switch out, its sleep timer is reset and your opponent still gets a free turn to do whatever.

If it only had Recover and maybe some actual offenses without Power Split, really.

 

[Husky]

I really loved using Mono-Psychic type team ever since 4th gen. With so many damn hard hitting Pokes in there, it's quite easy to put the opponent under pressure quickly.
I wonder, everyone's complaining about "omg, they'll f***ing lose to TTar and Scizor".. Guys, they're both too damn slow to be an imminent danger for a team full of fast and hard-hitting Psychics (except for Scizor's Bullet Punch, but one can work around that quite easily). You know what almost any Psychic type can learn? Focus Blast! ..Eat this, Godzilla! You now, what Psychic types have access to? Steel dualtypes (Jirachi, Bronzong, and Metagross), Starmie and Victini. I guess Scizor just failed once more..
Technically, even Slowbro would work against it, but in contrast to most other Psychics, it lacks the speed to get its Flamethrower / Fire Blast off before it's eaten by a Bug Bite (yup, +2 Bug Bite OHKOs it...). Now that I pointed out some disadvantages, no one can say I think to straight xD
Then again, Psychics naturally have access to various "Room" moves, most notably Trick Room, to invert the attack order in the same priority bracket. Yet another great field effect besides (auto-)weather. With it, offensive teams, running frail but fast sweepers including some Scarfers are rendered kind of helpless against it.
Also it's possible to mix these strategies to maximize their effect to its full potential (see: your spoiler text in OP ^.^). Like, you lead with TR + SR + filler (screens?) Zong, set up and then force the opponent to probably struggle with your bulkiest Pokes like Metagross, Reuniclus and in some matter even Beheeyem. Once the battle reaches mid or late game and you have no TR anymore, You can pull off some sweep attempts with the likes of Jirachi, Latios and Deoxys-S.
In fact, Psychic is extremely versatile and I haven't even scratched the surface with this.. I'd be honored, when I can contribute my work for your team, once we're in the Psychic-type round =)


...However, since Psychic isn't in the voting list for the first round, I'd vote for Water, for all the reasons stated above already xDD

 

[Aleva]

You also forget though, Mono-Ice needs to worry about Stealth Rock. Froslass can't harm fighting types very effectively while they use Payback, Stone Edge, Fire Blast .etc on her and kill.

Oh and, to whoever said that the Electric/Grass combo doesn't exist, Rotom-C wants a word with you.

 

[Xephyr]

I'd just like to say that Celebi does NOT decimate mono water as easily as you think. Specially defensive Empoleon is common on BW mono water teams since he's the best stealth rocker and he has little trouble with Celebis that don't have Earth Power. Also, bulky Gyarados (another common mono water sweeper for his neutrality to grass) sets up and bounces on Celebi. Ludicolo also cares very little and hits back with a hard Ice beam.

Mono teams don't use standard sets and standard Pokemon. A good mono water team might very well just have all three Pokemon I listed up there, and all three of them can take on Celebi.

 

[Spork]

what NP Celebi lack Earth Power?

A specially defensive Azumarill set with Sap Sipper - sounds silly in the context of BW OU, but remember that this is monotype, and pokemon often have to take on odd roles - walls Celebi fairly thoroughly, but generally fails at doing anything in return - He can't use Encore and Ice Punch on the same set, for example, and Celebi couldn't care less if he was Toxic'ed. Encore does allow an immune partner to set up on an Earth Power / Psychic however, and allows anyone to set up on a Nasty Plot, and a +1 Return with no attack investment does do some damage, as does Ice Beam, though not enough to defeat Celebi generally.

Something like 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 SpA Sassy is a decent set for walling grass types, since they rarely carry physical attacks (and those that do mostly run mixed sets where the grass attack is the main physical attack, such as Venusaur or Tangrowth). Choosing moves is somewhat difficult though - Toxic seems important for consistent damage, and Encore is pretty central. Ice Beam helps to beat a lot of grass types, and Waterfall and Return can take advantage of the Sap Sipper attack boosts somewhat. Then there's always Protect.

 

[Run]

Thanks to everyone for the activity. It seems that water is getting the most attention, positive and negative, so it looks like a great place to start! I will be creating a Project Mono-Type: Water topic shortly so we can begin the process of examining the water type and building a competitive team.

For those posting the "X beats team Y" arguments: I've found that you only need 1-2 reliable ways to shut down X in order to mitigate the damage to your team considerably. It takes playing proactively, and thinking ahead.

Please keep up the posts!

 

[Run]

It's been decided! The first type we will be exploring for Project Mono-Type is Water!

To re-iterate: The purpose of Project Mono-Type is to help the community learn more about team creation through the exercise of restricting team creation to mono-type teams. This forces the player to shape and mold their pokemon in such a way as to cover some of the large obvious holes that mono-type teams inherently have.

The criteria for our first mono-type team was to pick a team that can utilize weather (a current metagame staple), and was also relatively easy to create. Water was easily the most discussed type and I couldn't be happier!

Water is a fantastic type with a VAST array of available pokemon to choose from, giving the community a LOT of options for optimization. On top of that, Water pokemon are well-known and it will take less brain-scratching to come up with viable mons.

We are currently in phase 1:
Discuss the water type, in general. Discuss primary strengths, weaknesses, and possible ideas to work around those weaknesses. Talk about individual pokemon as they relate to these criteria. We are not looking for a lineup yet! That's next!