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Quagsire (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Don Honchkrorleone, Nov 8, 2010.

  1. Don Honchkrorleone

    Don Honchkrorleone

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    Finally done!
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    Quagsire

    [Overview]

    <p>In a metagame dominated by boosting sweepers, a brave Pokemon stands out as one of the best counters to almost all of them: Quagsire. Dream World brought him the fantastic ability Unaware, and Quagsire can make excellent use of it, especially since there is very little competition in that area (Clefable has Magic Guard, and Bibarel and Swoobat are useless). Despite losing a Water-type immunity by forgoing Water Absorb for Unaware, he becomes one of the best checks to Swords Dance Excadrill, Shell Smash Cloyster, and Swords Dance Landorus in the game. However, if you think that Quagsire's only new trick is Unaware, think again. He also got Scald as a bonus in this generation, which allows him to cripple many physical sweepers thanks to its high burn chance (although Quagsire's Special Attack is admittedly substandard).</p>

    <p>However, all is not sunshine for Quagsire. His fellow Water / Ground friend Gastrodon got an update to his Storm Drain ability, making him a better choice for walling opposing Water-type Pokemon. One of his best moves, Encore, was severely reduced in power, and with Ferrothorn completely shutting Quagsire down, it's hard to find room for Quagsire in your team. Quagsire is still mortally afraid of Grass-type moves and Taunt in general. However, do not be discouraged by these flaws, as Quagsire is still a good Pokemon to use, especially if you have a weakness to boosting sweepers.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Curse
    move 1: Curse
    move 2: Recover
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Waterfall / Stone Edge
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Unaware
    nature: Careful
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

    [Set comments]

    <p>Quagsire can boost his mediocre Attack as well as his respectable Defense with Curse. There is one main reason to use Curse Quagsire over Gastrodon or Swampert: Unaware. This allows Quagsire to set up Curse in the face of sweepers that can't damage it much, since boosting alongside Quagsire will have no effect. As before, Recover is necessary to keep Quagsire alive for as long as possible. Earthquake is his main damaging move, and attains super effective coverage against Excadrill, Jirachi, Tyranitar, Heatran, Metagross, Magnezone, and others (just watch out for Air Balloon users). His last move should be chosen depending on whether you want another reliable STAB move (Waterfall) or the best coverage possible (Stone Edge).</p>

    [Additional comments]

    <p>Generally the best course of action for the EVs is to maximize HP and Special Defense, while the leftovers can go in Defense. There are other options for the last slot; Aqua Tail is stronger than Waterfall but has less accuracy, Body Slam can paralyze the foe with some luck, and Brick Break is a super effective move against Ferrothorn and stronger against Tyranitar, and also breaks screens. Ice Punch, while a good move, is unfortunately illegal with Unaware. Rest is also an option over Recover if status is annoying.</p>

    <p>Grass-types are still an obstacle for this set. Status effects like poison and burn are also a pain for Quagsire. Celebi is thus a good partner for Quagsire, as it can remove status via Aromatherapy or Heal Bell while also resisting the Grass-type attacks that Quagsire hates. Forretress is also a good teammate, as it can spin away dangerous Toxic Spikes, and also resists Grass-type attacks. This set enjoys entry hazards because Quagsire's Attack is quite substandard; Forretress, mentioned above, can also set up all three entry hazards.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Specially Defensive
    move 1: Scald
    move 2: Recover
    move 3: Yawn / Toxic
    move 4: Earthquake
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Unaware
    nature: Sassy
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

    [Set comments]

    <p>The goal of this set is to counter the potent special sweepers without Grass moves that also plague the metagame, such as Calm Mind Reuniclus, Calm Mind Latios, and Nasty Plot Lucario. Quagsire, while often seen as a physically defensive Pokemon, has enough bulk to pull off a specially defensive set. However, one must not forget that Quagsire's cousin Gastrodon can also pull off the same set with better Special Defense. However, Quagsire has something that Gastrodon doesn't (again): Unaware.</p>

    <p>Scald is great with its high burn chance on this set, capable of potentially crippling most physical and even some mixed and special sweepers. Recover keeps Quagsire alive, and is a must on this set. Assuming the opponent isn't afflicted with a status condition yet, Yawn can either phaze or put the foe to sleep, while Toxic severely manhandles bulky walls such as Jellicent and Cresselia. Earthquake adds some coverage to Scald and is good to take out Nasty Plot Lucario and other fearsome Pokemon that are weak to Ground.</p>

    [Additional comments]

    <p>The EVs are focused on special walling. Basically, 252 EVs in HP and 252 EVs in Special Defense lets Quagsire sponge special hits quite well, considering Quagsire's base 65 Special Defense stat. The remaining EVs are put into Defense. Quagsire can run Ice Beam on this set to deal with Grass-types as specially inclined Dragon-types with an immunity to Ground-type moves, such as Latios and Hydreigon, but coming from 65 base Special Attack, Ice Beam won't hurt enough barring a 4x weakness.

    <p>Even with full investment in his Special Defense, STAB Grass-type moves will severely hurt, if not OHKO Quagsire. With that in mind, any Pokemon that have a super effective move against Grass-types and resist their STAB moves are good partners for Quagsire. Volcarona gets a special mention because it can come in on Grass-type moves aimed at Quagsire, while Quagsire can take the Rock-type moves that Volcarona hates. Pokemon that can set up entry hazards, especially those with a Fire-type weakness such as Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Forretress, also pair well with Quagsire because of his natural ability to force switches.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Physically Defensive
    move 1: Scald
    move 2: Recover
    move 3: Yawn / Toxic
    move 4: Earthquake
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Unaware
    nature: Relaxed
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

    [Set comments]

    <p>With Unaware, Quagsire becomes one of the best counters to some of the most dangerous physical sweepers in the OU metagame, such as Cloyster, Excadrill, Scrafty, and Landorus. Scald is a staple on this set, due to its high 30% chance of burning the foe, and with Quagsire's moderately high Defense stat, it will take physical hits easily if the foe is burned. Recover is another great move for reliable recovery, lengthening Quagsire's lifespan. In the third slot, Yawn can force some switches, while Toxic can cripple bulky Pokemon such as Jellicent, while also threatening the special attackers that do not mind being burned. Finally, in the last slot, Earthquake is a good secondary STAB move that adds some coverage.</p>

    [Additional comments]

    <p>There are several alternative moves that can fill the last slot. Safeguard protects Quagsire and its comrades against status. Ice Beam helps against Gliscor, Landorus, and a variety of Dragon- and Grass-types, but again, it won't hurt much coming from Quagsire's mediocre Special Attack. Stone Edge hurts Volcarona more than Scald. Finally, Stockpile can turn Quagsire into an unbreakable wall if the foe doesn't have a Grass-type move. </p>

    <p>The EVs listed give Quagsire maximum physical bulk, while the remaining 4 EVs are put in Special Defense. Alternatively, you can move these EVs to Quagsire's Attack or Special Attack for more power, or to his Speed to Speed tie with Reuniclus with a neutral nature. This also allows Quagsire to outspeed opposing Quagsire that do not do the same.</p>

    <p>Grass types that don't fear status, like Celebi, Shaymin, and Roserade, are also excellent counters. Again, Volcarona is a good partner for Quagsire, as it resists Quagsire's sole weakness to Grass-type attacks while Quagsire resists Volcarona's weakness to Rock-type attacks. Thus, Volcarona can switch into Grass-type attacks aimed at Quagsire and then either proceed to kill the Grass-types with its powerful atttacks or set up with Quiver Dance. Generally speaking, a Pokemon that benefits from Quagsire's resistances and immunities also pairs well with him, like Skarmory, who can survive the Grass-type moves that plague Quagsire, and in return, Quagsire can switch in on the Fire- and Electric-type attacks aimed at Skarmory. If Yawn is selected, entry hazards are welcome since Yawn will force many switches.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>On the Curse set, Quagsire can also invest in his Defense by using a 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def spread with an Impish nature, which allows him to take on physical threats more easily. Quagsire has some interesting options under his belt. Counter works because Quagsire can take a physical hit and then heal off the damage taken with Recover. Safeguard can protect Quagsire and his teammates against random status. While Haze resets all stat changes, it is redundant with Unaware. Mist prevents the foe from lowering one of Quagsire's or the rest of the team's stats, but is very situational. Rest + Sleep Talk is good if you are worried about status. Encore, formerly a good option, got nerfed to last only three turns, and is no longer viable. Stockpile can make Quagsire an unbreakable wall if the opponent lacks a Grass-type move.</p>

    <p>Acid Spray lowers the foe's Special Defense by 2 stages, but should only be used with Water Absorb since Unaware ignores that drop. Quagsire also has Surf, Ice Beam and Earth Power, but with his mediocre 65 Special Attack, the only special move that should really be used is Scald. Ice Punch is great against Dragon and Grass-types, but is illegal with Unaware. Water Absorb is a good ability, but Quagsire is outclassed by Gastrodon at absorbing Water-type moves. Finally, Lum Berry cures Quagsire of harmful status, but the loss of Leftovers is significant. </p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Grass-type Pokemon are a thorn in Quagsire's foot, in particular those that have Poison as their secondary type, such as Roserade, Amoonguss and Venusaur who are immune to Toxic. Grass-types like Lilligant, Shaymin, Nasty Plot Shiftry, and Celebi, that don't fear the burn from Scald, are also great counters. Physical Grass-types such as Breloom, Leafeon, Abomasnow and Ferrothorn can smack Quagsire with a powerful Seed Bomb, Leaf Blade, Wood Hammer, or Power Whip respectively, but they can’t switch into Scald due to its high burn rate (Breloom is an exception if it's already poisoned by Toxic Orb). Other Pokemon that often use Grass-type moves also fare well against Quagsire. Haxorus is the only non Grass-type physical sweeper that Quagsire hates because Mold Breaker can bypass Unaware, but it can't switch into Scald. Quagsire will often use status moves more than attacking moves, so if a Pokemon can use Taunt and isn’t weak to Scald or Earthquake, it can be considered as a Quagsire check. Good examples include Whimsicott, Azelf, Tornadus, and Thundurus.</p>
  2. Don Honchkrorleone

    Don Honchkrorleone

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    Feedbacks, (constructive) criticism and suggestions will be happily appreciated.
  3. Plusle

    Plusle

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  4. SOMALIA

    SOMALIA Fuck Ass Noob
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    Nice skeleton.

    This statement could do with some rephrasing or removal. Skarmory and Forretress tend to set up Spikes almost all the time and encoring them doesn't really harm them in any way, yes? They will keep spiking till they get all the layers up and switch. As for Vaporeon all it sets up is wish, HP electric and Surf are both its most common attacks and Quagsire is immune to both so there is no reason why Vaporeon would stay to attack or do a different move other than Wish.

    Good work nevertheless!!
  5. Don Honchkrorleone

    Don Honchkrorleone

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    Thanks for calling my attention about that. I'll replace with Blissey, Bronzong and Manaphy.
  6. Wichu

    Wichu ACUPRESSURE
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    As DW Quagsire is obtainable, I'd slash in Unaware onto the Curse set, or even make it the first choice. Unaware lets you set up on opposing set-up sweepers like Cloyster, BU Rohbushin, DD Gyarados, and Butterfly Dance Ulgamoth (watch out for Sp. Def drop from Bug Buzz though). It also makes point 7 on the overview moot (in fact, it becomes pretty much the opposite), and gives it another advantage over Swampert.

    Keep in mind that Unaware ignores opponents' stat drops, too, meaning it can't beat Draco Meteor users such as Sazandra by recovering and waiting for their Sp. Atk to become harmless, unlike other specially bulky Pokémon.

    Personally, I've found toxic poison is much more damaging than a burn for Quagsire; Burn damage can be recovered off, and even with the Attack drop, it can still dish out decent damage if it gets to +6 (not too hard to do once you've eliminated Grass types and heavy hitters that don't need to set up).
  7. Don Honchkrorleone

    Don Honchkrorleone

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    Done. Need feedback.
  8. Calm Pokemaster

    Calm Pokemaster
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    You might want to mention that entry hazard support is very useful if you are running Yawn, since it forces switches a lot. Yawn is also viable on the Curse set, though that leaves you with only one attacking move, which is not advisable.

    There are also several spelling mistakes, and grammatical errors(though undoubtedly it is none of my business to corrct them, as it will be taken care of by our GP Team). Corect them, and you will have a very well written analysis on your hands.
  9. Don Honchkrorleone

    Don Honchkrorleone

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    Adding that.

    And about the mistakes, I'll correct. English isn't my first language, so it's rather difficult (curse you, Portugal).
  10. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    It should be noted that on the Curse set, using Waterfall can help you break Trick Room teams so you don't rely on an 80% accurate move to sweep. It should also be noted that Waterfall has perfect accuracy and doesn't leave you completely walled by Gliscor if you don't have Stone Edge PP or Rest to recover off Toxic damage. You're also less screwed by Hippowdon, Heatran, and Doryuuzu.

    Make Waterfall the primary option, at least. It has many things going for it.
  11. Don Honchkrorleone

    Don Honchkrorleone

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    Thanks. Now Waterfall > Stone Edge.
  12. locopoke

    locopoke indulges in unsavory behavior
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    I think you should get rid of both the Specially Defensive set and the Curse set. You mention Shandera as one of the Pokemon that the Specially Defensive set walls when it's hardly seen at all in OU. Rankurusu isn't walled by Quagsire either. Magic Guard makes it so that it doesn't take Poison damage so it will either get Yawned or attack you until it lands a crit. While NP Lucario is walled by Quagsire, it's not nearly common enough to give people a reason to use Quagsire.

    The Curse set is really just a worse Swampert / Gastrodon, and even those two aren't very good in this metagame. The Physically Defensive set is the only Quagsire I see being useful.

    I suggest removing Encore from the Physically Defensive set. Because of the fact that it only lasts 3 turns, it's pretty useless in most cases.
  13. Don Honchkrorleone

    Don Honchkrorleone

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    • Got rid of the Specially defensive set.
    • Added Curse to OC, mentioning that it's outclassed by both Swampert and Gastrodon.
    • Took out Encore and put it in the OC.
    Anything else?
  14. Eo Ut Mortus

    Eo Ut Mortus Elodin Smells
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    The Curse set has a decent niche: Unaware prevent opposing, more powerful stat-boosters from beating him through set-up. I agree with the rest of loco's post, though.
  15. Don Honchkrorleone

    Don Honchkrorleone

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    Reposted the Curse set (don't ask me how). Anything else?
  16. Plusle

    Plusle

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    Proof Read


  17. Don Honchkrorleone

    Don Honchkrorleone

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    Thanks, Plusle. Edited. (And I call Quagsire as water fish since it's his species, the water fish pokémon).

    Anything else?
  18. Pokemonniac

    Pokemonniac

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    I have played myself a lot with Curse Quagsire (and have achieved suspect voting rating with it in my team) and IMO 252HP, 252 Def, 4 Att Impish is much better spread. First some damage calculations for backing up my claim:

    Impish (252,252,0):

    ScizorChoiceband Damage: 43.7 -51.5 , av. Damage: 47.3
    DoryuuzuSwordsdance Damage: 44.9 -52.8 , av. Damage: 48.5
    RoobushinBulkup Damage: 28.9 -34.3 , av. Damage: 31.3
    UrugamosuButterflysweeper Damage: 71.1 -84.0 , av. Damage: 77.2
    Gengar Life Orb Damage: 61.7 -72.6 , av. Damage: 66.7
    Tyranitar Choice Scarf Damage: 27.4 -32.2 , av. Damage: 29.5
    Tyranitar Choice Band Damage: 44.9 -52.8 , av. Damage: 48.5
    Latios Choice Specs Damage: 100.0-100.0, av. Damage: 100.0
    Heatran Substitute Damage: 35.5 -41.9 , av. Damage: 38.4
    Starmie Life Orb Damage: 76.4 -90.1 , av. Damage: 82.8
    Starmie Rapid Spin Damage: 36.8 -43.7 , av. Damage: 40.1

    Careful (252,0,252)

    ScizorChoiceband Damage: 62.7 -73.9 , av. Damage: 67.9
    DoryuuzuSwordsdance Damage: 63.5 -74.9 , av. Damage: 68.8
    RoobushinBulkup Damage: 41.4 -49.0 , av. Damage: 45.0
    UrugamosuButterflysweeper Damage: 47.2 -55.6 , av. Damage: 51.0
    Gengar Life Orb Damage: 40.6 -48.2 , av. Damage: 44.3
    Tyranitar Choice Scarf Damage: 38.8 -45.9 , av. Damage: 42.2
    Tyranitar Choice Band Damage: 64.2 -75.6 , av. Damage: 69.6
    Latios Choice Specs Damage: 81.7 -96.7, av. Damage: 89.2
    Heatran Substitute Damage: 23.6 -27.9 , av. Damage: 25.6
    Starmie Life Orb Damage: 51.0 -60.2 , av. Damage: 55.1
    Starmie Rapid Spin Damage: 24.6 -29.2 , av. Damage: 26.7

    Since there's no usage statistics (afaik) on smogon server I'm using PO servers usage statistics. First lets compare how these Pokemons do against most common physical threats (Tyranitar, Scizor, Doryuuzu, Roobushin, Garchomp):

    Against all these Pokemons (that are in top 7 on PO server) physical spread is much better. It allows you to set up against doryuuzu and garchomp which can't be done with special spread (and to lesser extend CB Ttar). It can also switch much easier to Roobushin, Doryuuzu and Scizor. Also from my own experience many more uncommon Pokemons like Terrakion, Rankurusu, Lucario, Blaziken (and basically any other high Attack fighter), Cloyster are capable of doing around same damage as Doryuuzu meaning without Criticals and Hazards Physically defensive Quagsire can switch to them (except Rankurusu) and can set up on them against 1 vs 1 (except LO/CB Rankurusu) which are all not possibly with specially defensive spread.

    Now looking some most common special threats:

    5) Gengar

    As seen from damage calculations although the special defensive spread can take on Gengar much better, it still can't switch on it easily and setting curses against it won't probably work because of SpD drop happening eventually.

    8) Heatran

    Physically defensive gets only 3HKOed making it already pretty solid against Heatran. Specially defensive set is on the other hand pretty solid counter.

    9, 10, 21) Burungeru, Politoed and Vaporeon

    All of these carry very often Toxic ruining Quagsire no matter what spread.

    12) Starmie

    LO wins both sets and specially defensive set doesn't do much better against rapid spinner since it cannot stop it from spinning.

    18, 23) Sazandora/Latios:

    As seen from damage calculations not even max SpD investment let you beat these, especially since Unaware ignores Draco Meteors SpA drop. Also because they resist both STABs and are not weak to Stone Edge these are very common Quagsire switch-ins from my experience.

    Urugamosu:

    Physically defensive is 2HKOed and specially defensive 2HKOed sometimes. Specially defensive can't counter or set up curses against this and thus is not a big improvement from physical spread.

    Skymin:

    Both loses to it.

    Darkrai:

    Wins both with Dark Void usually.

    Deoxys-A:

    Naive LO Psycho Boost does 90.9% - 107.4% to specially defensive spread making it hardly better against this than the physical spread.

    Summary:

    Physical:
    + Much better against physical threats which all very common (Ttar, Doryuuzu, Garchomp)
    + Also the defense boost compared to specially defensive is very critical against very many less common physical attackers such as Blaziken, Lucario, Terrakion, Rankurusu, Cloyster, Physical Dragons, etc.
    - More easily revenge killed by special side (Gengar, Starmie, etc)

    Special:
    - Can't switch to physical attacks very well
    - Still revenged easily by many very strong and common special attackers (Specs Dragons, Skymin + other grass Pokemons, Deoxys-A)
    - Still has problems with special attacking walls because of Toxic (Burungery, Politoed, Vaporeon, Blissey)
    + Can counter Heatran pretty nicely
    + Can take some weaker special attacks (LO Gengar, Darkrai) better (but usually not that well that it can counter these or set curses against these Pokemons).
  19. Charmander

    Charmander mfw i have a mane and am actually the sun
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    There are a few things that Plustle didn't catch, so I'll also proofread this... I'll do more later but right now I have to focus on my own analysis' :3 also i should probably wait until this gets QC approved
    Deletions
    Additions
    Comments

    click me (open)


    EDIT: Also, you should change the status to "Written; awaiting QC approval" or something. Done means QC approved, GP checked, and ready to be posted on-sight.
  20. Don Honchkrorleone

    Don Honchkrorleone

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    Thanks, Charmander. This thing hasn't been QC approved yet, but every help is needed. Thanks again.
  21. panamaxis

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    I disagree with locopoke, Curse Quagsire is actually quite good with unaware. Not that it matters a huge deal but wouldn't we be better off putting the last 4 evs into speed for the physically defensive set?

    Anyway, this looks good.

    Quality Control Approved 1/2
  22. Don Honchkrorleone

    Don Honchkrorleone

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    Thanks Panamaxis, but that 4 Spe Evs seems confusing with a Relaxed Nature. Thanks, anyway (added that).
  23. panamaxis

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    yeah but 4 Special Defense EVs are likely to not do anything really, at least with 4 speed you have a chance to tie with other quagsires and potentially get a recover off if you're on low health or finish them off if they're on low health. Again, doesn't matter too much but thought I'd mention it.
  24. Don Honchkrorleone

    Don Honchkrorleone

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    I see. Added in AC.

    Only one more QC and then my terrible Grammar/Spelling will cause Nightmare in the poor GP checkers.
  25. Iconic

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    I agree with Eo, Curse Quagsire has a pretty nice niche with all the stat boosters like Roobushin floating aorund. It proved itself when I tested it on my joke team (ironically) and Lady Bug swears by it, so I agree that it deserves a place on the analysis. Shouldn't it be maxed out in Special Defense though? It seems kind of strange to have all the Defense only to be boosting it further with Curse.

    QC Approved 2/2

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