Quagsire (Analysis)

#1
Finally done!
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Quagsire

[Overview]

<p>In a metagame dominated by boosting sweepers, a brave Pokemon stands out as one of the best counters to almost all of them: Quagsire. Dream World brought him the fantastic ability Unaware, and Quagsire can make excellent use of it, especially since there is very little competition in that area (Clefable has Magic Guard, and Bibarel and Swoobat are useless). Despite losing a Water-type immunity by forgoing Water Absorb for Unaware, he becomes one of the best checks to Swords Dance Excadrill, Shell Smash Cloyster, and Swords Dance Landorus in the game. However, if you think that Quagsire's only new trick is Unaware, think again. He also got Scald as a bonus in this generation, which allows him to cripple many physical sweepers thanks to its high burn chance (although Quagsire's Special Attack is admittedly substandard).</p>

<p>However, all is not sunshine for Quagsire. His fellow Water / Ground friend Gastrodon got an update to his Storm Drain ability, making him a better choice for walling opposing Water-type Pokemon. One of his best moves, Encore, was severely reduced in power, and with Ferrothorn completely shutting Quagsire down, it's hard to find room for Quagsire in your team. Quagsire is still mortally afraid of Grass-type moves and Taunt in general. However, do not be discouraged by these flaws, as Quagsire is still a good Pokemon to use, especially if you have a weakness to boosting sweepers.</p>

[SET]
name: Curse
move 1: Curse
move 2: Recover
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Waterfall / Stone Edge
item: Leftovers
ability: Unaware
nature: Careful
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

[Set comments]

<p>Quagsire can boost his mediocre Attack as well as his respectable Defense with Curse. There is one main reason to use Curse Quagsire over Gastrodon or Swampert: Unaware. This allows Quagsire to set up Curse in the face of sweepers that can't damage it much, since boosting alongside Quagsire will have no effect. As before, Recover is necessary to keep Quagsire alive for as long as possible. Earthquake is his main damaging move, and attains super effective coverage against Excadrill, Jirachi, Tyranitar, Heatran, Metagross, Magnezone, and others (just watch out for Air Balloon users). His last move should be chosen depending on whether you want another reliable STAB move (Waterfall) or the best coverage possible (Stone Edge).</p>

[Additional comments]

<p>Generally the best course of action for the EVs is to maximize HP and Special Defense, while the leftovers can go in Defense. There are other options for the last slot; Aqua Tail is stronger than Waterfall but has less accuracy, Body Slam can paralyze the foe with some luck, and Brick Break is a super effective move against Ferrothorn and stronger against Tyranitar, and also breaks screens. Ice Punch, while a good move, is unfortunately illegal with Unaware. Rest is also an option over Recover if status is annoying.</p>

<p>Grass-types are still an obstacle for this set. Status effects like poison and burn are also a pain for Quagsire. Celebi is thus a good partner for Quagsire, as it can remove status via Aromatherapy or Heal Bell while also resisting the Grass-type attacks that Quagsire hates. Forretress is also a good teammate, as it can spin away dangerous Toxic Spikes, and also resists Grass-type attacks. This set enjoys entry hazards because Quagsire's Attack is quite substandard; Forretress, mentioned above, can also set up all three entry hazards.</p>

[SET]
name: Specially Defensive
move 1: Scald
move 2: Recover
move 3: Yawn / Toxic
move 4: Earthquake
item: Leftovers
ability: Unaware
nature: Sassy
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

[Set comments]

<p>The goal of this set is to counter the potent special sweepers without Grass moves that also plague the metagame, such as Calm Mind Reuniclus, Calm Mind Latios, and Nasty Plot Lucario. Quagsire, while often seen as a physically defensive Pokemon, has enough bulk to pull off a specially defensive set. However, one must not forget that Quagsire's cousin Gastrodon can also pull off the same set with better Special Defense. However, Quagsire has something that Gastrodon doesn't (again): Unaware.</p>

<p>Scald is great with its high burn chance on this set, capable of potentially crippling most physical and even some mixed and special sweepers. Recover keeps Quagsire alive, and is a must on this set. Assuming the opponent isn't afflicted with a status condition yet, Yawn can either phaze or put the foe to sleep, while Toxic severely manhandles bulky walls such as Jellicent and Cresselia. Earthquake adds some coverage to Scald and is good to take out Nasty Plot Lucario and other fearsome Pokemon that are weak to Ground.</p>

[Additional comments]

<p>The EVs are focused on special walling. Basically, 252 EVs in HP and 252 EVs in Special Defense lets Quagsire sponge special hits quite well, considering Quagsire's base 65 Special Defense stat. The remaining EVs are put into Defense. Quagsire can run Ice Beam on this set to deal with Grass-types as specially inclined Dragon-types with an immunity to Ground-type moves, such as Latios and Hydreigon, but coming from 65 base Special Attack, Ice Beam won't hurt enough barring a 4x weakness.

<p>Even with full investment in his Special Defense, STAB Grass-type moves will severely hurt, if not OHKO Quagsire. With that in mind, any Pokemon that have a super effective move against Grass-types and resist their STAB moves are good partners for Quagsire. Volcarona gets a special mention because it can come in on Grass-type moves aimed at Quagsire, while Quagsire can take the Rock-type moves that Volcarona hates. Pokemon that can set up entry hazards, especially those with a Fire-type weakness such as Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Forretress, also pair well with Quagsire because of his natural ability to force switches.</p>

[SET]
name: Physically Defensive
move 1: Scald
move 2: Recover
move 3: Yawn / Toxic
move 4: Earthquake
item: Leftovers
ability: Unaware
nature: Relaxed
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

[Set comments]

<p>With Unaware, Quagsire becomes one of the best counters to some of the most dangerous physical sweepers in the OU metagame, such as Cloyster, Excadrill, Scrafty, and Landorus. Scald is a staple on this set, due to its high 30% chance of burning the foe, and with Quagsire's moderately high Defense stat, it will take physical hits easily if the foe is burned. Recover is another great move for reliable recovery, lengthening Quagsire's lifespan. In the third slot, Yawn can force some switches, while Toxic can cripple bulky Pokemon such as Jellicent, while also threatening the special attackers that do not mind being burned. Finally, in the last slot, Earthquake is a good secondary STAB move that adds some coverage.</p>

[Additional comments]

<p>There are several alternative moves that can fill the last slot. Safeguard protects Quagsire and its comrades against status. Ice Beam helps against Gliscor, Landorus, and a variety of Dragon- and Grass-types, but again, it won't hurt much coming from Quagsire's mediocre Special Attack. Stone Edge hurts Volcarona more than Scald. Finally, Stockpile can turn Quagsire into an unbreakable wall if the foe doesn't have a Grass-type move. </p>

<p>The EVs listed give Quagsire maximum physical bulk, while the remaining 4 EVs are put in Special Defense. Alternatively, you can move these EVs to Quagsire's Attack or Special Attack for more power, or to his Speed to Speed tie with Reuniclus with a neutral nature. This also allows Quagsire to outspeed opposing Quagsire that do not do the same.</p>

<p>Grass types that don't fear status, like Celebi, Shaymin, and Roserade, are also excellent counters. Again, Volcarona is a good partner for Quagsire, as it resists Quagsire's sole weakness to Grass-type attacks while Quagsire resists Volcarona's weakness to Rock-type attacks. Thus, Volcarona can switch into Grass-type attacks aimed at Quagsire and then either proceed to kill the Grass-types with its powerful atttacks or set up with Quiver Dance. Generally speaking, a Pokemon that benefits from Quagsire's resistances and immunities also pairs well with him, like Skarmory, who can survive the Grass-type moves that plague Quagsire, and in return, Quagsire can switch in on the Fire- and Electric-type attacks aimed at Skarmory. If Yawn is selected, entry hazards are welcome since Yawn will force many switches.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>On the Curse set, Quagsire can also invest in his Defense by using a 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def spread with an Impish nature, which allows him to take on physical threats more easily. Quagsire has some interesting options under his belt. Counter works because Quagsire can take a physical hit and then heal off the damage taken with Recover. Safeguard can protect Quagsire and his teammates against random status. While Haze resets all stat changes, it is redundant with Unaware. Mist prevents the foe from lowering one of Quagsire's or the rest of the team's stats, but is very situational. Rest + Sleep Talk is good if you are worried about status. Encore, formerly a good option, got nerfed to last only three turns, and is no longer viable. Stockpile can make Quagsire an unbreakable wall if the opponent lacks a Grass-type move.</p>

<p>Acid Spray lowers the foe's Special Defense by 2 stages, but should only be used with Water Absorb since Unaware ignores that drop. Quagsire also has Surf, Ice Beam and Earth Power, but with his mediocre 65 Special Attack, the only special move that should really be used is Scald. Ice Punch is great against Dragon and Grass-types, but is illegal with Unaware. Water Absorb is a good ability, but Quagsire is outclassed by Gastrodon at absorbing Water-type moves. Finally, Lum Berry cures Quagsire of harmful status, but the loss of Leftovers is significant. </p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Grass-type Pokemon are a thorn in Quagsire's foot, in particular those that have Poison as their secondary type, such as Roserade, Amoonguss and Venusaur who are immune to Toxic. Grass-types like Lilligant, Shaymin, Nasty Plot Shiftry, and Celebi, that don't fear the burn from Scald, are also great counters. Physical Grass-types such as Breloom, Leafeon, Abomasnow and Ferrothorn can smack Quagsire with a powerful Seed Bomb, Leaf Blade, Wood Hammer, or Power Whip respectively, but they can’t switch into Scald due to its high burn rate (Breloom is an exception if it's already poisoned by Toxic Orb). Other Pokemon that often use Grass-type moves also fare well against Quagsire. Haxorus is the only non Grass-type physical sweeper that Quagsire hates because Mold Breaker can bypass Unaware, but it can't switch into Scald. Quagsire will often use status moves more than attacking moves, so if a Pokemon can use Taunt and isn’t weak to Scald or Earthquake, it can be considered as a Quagsire check. Good examples include Whimsicott, Azelf, Tornadus, and Thundurus.</p>
 
#4
Nice skeleton.

• Encore punishes pokémon that try to set up on him like Skarmory, Forretress and Vaporeon.
This statement could do with some rephrasing or removal. Skarmory and Forretress tend to set up Spikes almost all the time and encoring them doesn't really harm them in any way, yes? They will keep spiking till they get all the layers up and switch. As for Vaporeon all it sets up is wish, HP electric and Surf are both its most common attacks and Quagsire is immune to both so there is no reason why Vaporeon would stay to attack or do a different move other than Wish.

Good work nevertheless!!
 
#5
This statement could do with some rephrasing or removal. Skarmory and Forretress tend to set up Spikes almost all the time and encoring them doesn't really harm them in any way, yes? They will keep spiking till they get all the layers up and switch. As for Vaporeon all it sets up is wish, HP electric and Surf are both its most common attacks and Quagsire is immune to both so there is no reason why Vaporeon would stay to attack or do a different move other than Wish.

Good work nevertheless!!
Thanks for calling my attention about that. I'll replace with Blissey, Bronzong and Manaphy.
 
#6
As DW Quagsire is obtainable, I'd slash in Unaware onto the Curse set, or even make it the first choice. Unaware lets you set up on opposing set-up sweepers like Cloyster, BU Rohbushin, DD Gyarados, and Butterfly Dance Ulgamoth (watch out for Sp. Def drop from Bug Buzz though). It also makes point 7 on the overview moot (in fact, it becomes pretty much the opposite), and gives it another advantage over Swampert.

Keep in mind that Unaware ignores opponents' stat drops, too, meaning it can't beat Draco Meteor users such as Sazandra by recovering and waiting for their Sp. Atk to become harmless, unlike other specially bulky Pokémon.

Personally, I've found toxic poison is much more damaging than a burn for Quagsire; Burn damage can be recovered off, and even with the Attack drop, it can still dish out decent damage if it gets to +6 (not too hard to do once you've eliminated Grass types and heavy hitters that don't need to set up).
 
#8
You might want to mention that entry hazard support is very useful if you are running Yawn, since it forces switches a lot. Yawn is also viable on the Curse set, though that leaves you with only one attacking move, which is not advisable.

There are also several spelling mistakes, and grammatical errors(though undoubtedly it is none of my business to corrct them, as it will be taken care of by our GP Team). Corect them, and you will have a very well written analysis on your hands.
 
#9
You might want to mention that entry hazard support is very useful if you are running Yawn, since it forces switches a lot. Yawn is also viable on the Curse set, though that leaves you with only one attacking move, which is not advisable.

There are also several spelling mistakes, and grammatical errors(though undoubtedly it is none of my business to corrct them, as it will be taken care of by our GP Team). Corect them, and you will have a very well written analysis on your hands.
Adding that.

And about the mistakes, I'll correct. English isn't my first language, so it's rather difficult (curse you, Portugal).
 

AccidentalGreed

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#10
It should be noted that on the Curse set, using Waterfall can help you break Trick Room teams so you don't rely on an 80% accurate move to sweep. It should also be noted that Waterfall has perfect accuracy and doesn't leave you completely walled by Gliscor if you don't have Stone Edge PP or Rest to recover off Toxic damage. You're also less screwed by Hippowdon, Heatran, and Doryuuzu.

Make Waterfall the primary option, at least. It has many things going for it.
 
#11
It should be noted that on the Curse set, using Waterfall can help you break Trick Room teams so you don't rely on an 80% accurate move to sweep. It should also be noted that Waterfall has perfect accuracy and doesn't leave you completely walled by Gliscor if you don't have Stone Edge PP or Rest to recover off Toxic damage. You're also less screwed by Hippowdon, Heatran, and Doryuuzu.

Make Waterfall the primary option, at least. It has many things going for it.
Thanks. Now Waterfall > Stone Edge.
 

locopoke

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#12
I think you should get rid of both the Specially Defensive set and the Curse set. You mention Shandera as one of the Pokemon that the Specially Defensive set walls when it's hardly seen at all in OU. Rankurusu isn't walled by Quagsire either. Magic Guard makes it so that it doesn't take Poison damage so it will either get Yawned or attack you until it lands a crit. While NP Lucario is walled by Quagsire, it's not nearly common enough to give people a reason to use Quagsire.

The Curse set is really just a worse Swampert / Gastrodon, and even those two aren't very good in this metagame. The Physically Defensive set is the only Quagsire I see being useful.

I suggest removing Encore from the Physically Defensive set. Because of the fact that it only lasts 3 turns, it's pretty useless in most cases.
 
#13
I think you should get rid of both the Specially Defensive set and the Curse set. You mention Shandera as one of the Pokemon that the Specially Defensive set walls when it's hardly seen at all in OU. Rankurusu isn't walled by Quagsire either. Magic Guard makes it so that it doesn't take Poison damage so it will either get Yawned or attack you until it lands a crit. While NP Lucario is walled by Quagsire, it's not nearly common enough to give people a reason to use Quagsire.

The Curse set is really just a worse Swampert / Gastrodon, and even those two aren't very good in this metagame. The Physically Defensive set is the only Quagsire I see being useful.

I suggest removing Encore from the Physically Defensive set. Because of the fact that it only lasts 3 turns, it's pretty useless in most cases.
  • Got rid of the Specially defensive set.
  • Added Curse to OC, mentioning that it's outclassed by both Swampert and Gastrodon.
  • Took out Encore and put it in the OC.
Anything else?
 
#14
The Curse set has a decent niche: Unaware prevent opposing, more powerful stat-boosters from beating him through set-up. I agree with the rest of loco's post, though.
 
#16
Proof Read


Done, I think. Waiting QC approval.
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Quagsire

[Overview]

<p>In a metagame dominated by boosting moves such as Swords Dance, Dragon Dance and Calm Mind, a brave (Removed Part) Pokémon stands out as one of the best counters to most boosting sweepers: Quagsire. Dream World brought him the holy ability Unaware, and turned (he's not really a fish) Quagsire the most trustable user of that (Clefable has Magic Guard, and Kokoromori and Bibarel are useless anyway). With Unaware, although he loses his Water-type immunity since Quagsire has to opt between it and Water Absorb, he becomes one of the best Swords Dance Doryuuzu, Shell Break Cloyster and Swords Dance Randorosu checks in the game! If you think that Quagsire only got it, think twice. He got Boiling Water as a bonus in this Generation, being able to cripple many physical sweepers because of its high Burn chance.</p>

<p>However, not everything is good (DONT CALL QUAGSIRE WATER FISH) for Quagsire His fellow Water / Ground Gastrodon got an update in his ability, making a better choice if the job is walling Water pokémon. One of his best moves, Encore, got nerfed, and with Nattorei walking around taking little from everything that Quagsire has, it's hard to call that Quagsire is worth to a slot in a team. And Quagsire still is very afraid of Grass moves and Taunt. However, do not be discouraged by the aforementioned flaws, sice Quagsire is still a good pokémon to use, especially if you have wekness to boosting sweepers.</p>

[SET]
name: Physically defensive.
move 1: Boiling Water
move 2: Recover
move 3: Yawn / Toxic
move 4: Earthquake
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Nature: Relaxed
Evs.: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

[Set comments]

</p>With Unaware, Quagsire can become one of the best counters to some of the most dangerous physical sweepers that are threatenning the new metagame such as Cloyster, Doryuuzu, Scizor, Randorosu and many others. Boiling Water is the staple of this set with its high 30% chance of burning the foe, and with Quagsire's moderately high Defense stat, it will dish out physical hits easily if the foe is burned. Recover's purpose is keeping him alive. In the third slot, Yawn can force some switches, while Toxic kills special pokémon with a recovery move and that are unaffected by the burn from Boiling Water (of course, Quagsire won't use any of them if the foe is burned from Boiling Water). Finally, in the last slot, Earthquake adds some coverage ith Boiling Water.</p>

[Additional comments]

<p>A few more options can go in the last slot. Safeguard protects Quagsire and its comrades against status. Ice Beam helps against Drago- and Grass-Types.Stone Edge scaries Urugamosu more than Boiling Water. Finally, Stockpile can turn Quagsire into an unbreakable wall if the foe doesn't have a Grass move. The EVs give maximum physical bulk with the remaining Evs in SpD. Of course, you can move that Evs to his Atk or SpA for more power.</p>

</p>Erufuun can use eiher Taunt or a Grass STAB to destroy (UGH, not a fish)Quagsire. Other Grass Types that don’t fear neither Toxic nor burn from Boiling Water too much like Celebi, Shaymin and Roserade are also excellent counters. Urugamosu is a good partner to Quagsire, as it resists Quagsire’s weakness to Grass and Quagsire resists Urugamosu's weakness to Rock. Urugamosu can switch into Grass attacks aimed to Quagsire and then either proceeding to kill the Grass types with its STAB fire move of choice or settting up Butterfly Dance. A pokémon that benefits from Quagsire’s resistances and immunities also pair well with him, like Skarmory, who (It sounds like Skarm is using the moves) can survive the Grass moves that pursue Quagsire and in return Quagsirecan wall the Fire and Electric attacks aimed at Skarmory. If Yawn is selected, entry hazards are welcome since Yawn will force many switches.</p>

[SET]
name: Curse
move 1: Curse
move 2: Recover
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Waterfall / Stone Edge
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Nature: Careful
Evs.: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD

[Set comments]

<p> Quagsire can boost his mediocre Attack as well his respectable Defense with Curse, yet Swampert and Gastrodon also can. But there is one main reason to use this Cursing Quagsire over Gastrodon and Swampert: Unaware, which allows Quagsire set up Curse in the face of some sweepers that can't damageit much.(Usless Sentance) Recover keeps Quagsire alive. Earthquake is his main damaging move, being super effective against Doryuuzu, Jirachi, Tyranitar, Heatran, Metagross, Magnezone and others (watch out for Balloon). His last move is if you want another reliable STAB move (Waterfall) or the best coverage possible (Stone Edge).</p>

[Additional comments]

<p>252 HP Evs give Quagsire maximum bulk. Max SpD gives makes him against most non-Grass special attacks. Remaining Evs go to attack, but you can move the Evs' leftover(Removed the S)to Quagsire's Defense to make it more bulky. There are other options for the last slot. Aqua Tail is stronger than Waterfallbut has less Accuracy. Body Slam can paralyze the foe with some luck, and Brick Break is a super effective move against Nattorei. Ice Punch, while a good move, is unfortunately illegal with Unaware.</p>

<p>Grass Typesare still an obstacle for the success of this set. Status like Poison and Burn are also a pain for the Quagsire. Celebi is a good partner for this set, as it can remove status with Aromatherapy (Aromatherapy>Heal Bell,while also resisting the Grass and Poison (Quagsire does not hate poison and Celebi is weak to it attacks that Quagsire hate. Forretress is also good as it can spin away the dangerous Toxic Spikes. It also resists Grass. This set enjoys entry hazards because Quagsire's Attack is bit low. Forretress, mentioned above because of its ability of spinning Toxic Spikes that ruins this set, can also set up all three entry hazards.</p>

[Team Options]

<p>Ouagsire is outgoing, meaning that a lot of pokémon can benefit from his typing and ability of countering many sweepers. One good partner that follows the aforementioned characteristics is Heatran, who can be used at his best after Doryuuzu and Randorsu fall. Heatran can come into the Grass moves aimed to Quagsire. Another good partner is Celebi, who can use Aromatherapy to heal Quagsire from nasty status and takes the Grass attacks that plagues the water fish while Quagsire takes the Poison and Fire moves that the pixie hates, as well as beat Tyranitar (remember the old CeleTranPert? Works the same way with Quagsire it worked with Swampert). Also, pokémon with the ability Herbivore such as Baffuron and Mebukijika pairs well with Quagsire, gaining a +1 Atk bonus when switching in the Grass moves that target Quagsire.</p>

<p>Quagsire has problems with status such as Poison and Burn. Forretress can use Rapid Spin to blow away those pesky Toxic Spikes. Forretress can also set up its own Toxic Spikes, as well as Spikes and Stealth Rock. In case of burn, Shandera pairs well with Quagsire because it can absorb (removed a bit) Will-O-Wisps, Lava Plumes, or any other Fire-type moves that can burn with Flash Fire and then proceed(Removed ING)to either set up Calm Mind, Substitute, or just killing with its scary 145 base SpA. Likewise, Heatran can come in the aforementioned moves and doing whatever it has to do. Boiling Water, a non Fire move that can burn, can be absorbed by Guts users like Roobushin and Heracross. Safeguard is also good for preventing status. Some good users of Safeguard include Latias and Wobbuffet.</p>

[Optional Changes]

<p>Quagsire has some interesting options under his belt. Counter works because Quagsire can take a physical hit and then Recover. Safeguard can protect Quagsire and his teammates against status. Haze can reset the field, but Unaware outclasses it. Mist prevents the foe from lowering one of Quagsire's or the rest of the team's stats, but is situational. Rest + Sleep Talk is good if you are worried about status. Encore, formerly a good option, got nerfed and isn't a good option anymore. Finally, Stockpile can make Quagsire an unbreakable wall.</p>

Maybe Lum Berry?
<p>Choice Band is possible, but 85 base Attack won’t hurt enough. Choice Specs is in the same boat as Choice Band, doing even less damage because of his bad 65 base Special Attack. Acid Bomb lowers the foe's Special Defense by 2 stages and can force switches. Ice Punch is great against Dragons and Grasses, but is illegal with Unaware. Water Absorb is a good ability, but Quagsire is outclassed by Gastrodon.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Grass-type pokémon are a thorn in Quagsire's foot, in particular the ones that have Poison as their secondary type as they're immune to Toxic, such as Roserade, Morobareru and Venusaur. Grasses that don't fear the burn from Boiling Water are other kind of counters, like Doredia, Shaymin (S), Marakacchi, Nasty Plot Shiftry, Celebi and so more. Physical Grass Types such as Breloom, Leafeon, Abomasnow and Nattorei can smack Quagsire with a powerful Seed Bomb, Leaf Blade, Wood Hammer or Power Whip respectively, but they can’t switch in Boiling Water due its high burn rate. Other pokémon that often uses Grass moves also fare well against Quagsire. Quagsire will use support and status moves more than attacking moves, so if itcan use Taunt and isn’t weak to Boiling Water or Earthquake, it can be considered as a Quagsire check. Good examples include Erufuun, Azelf, Torunerosu and Borutorosu.</p>

[Dream World]

<p>Unaware Quagire had already been released and discussed above. It's a great ability that puts him apart his Water / Ground cousins Swampert and Gastrodon. Unfortunately, Dream World also brought drough Ninetales, that, while not a direct counter to Quagsire, her ability to set up automatic an infinite Sunny Day brings a lot of Grasses that have Clorophyl such as Victreebel and Shiftry the chance of being overused.</p>
 
#18
I have played myself a lot with Curse Quagsire (and have achieved suspect voting rating with it in my team) and IMO 252HP, 252 Def, 4 Att Impish is much better spread. First some damage calculations for backing up my claim:

Impish (252,252,0):

ScizorChoiceband Damage: 43.7 -51.5 , av. Damage: 47.3
DoryuuzuSwordsdance Damage: 44.9 -52.8 , av. Damage: 48.5
RoobushinBulkup Damage: 28.9 -34.3 , av. Damage: 31.3
UrugamosuButterflysweeper Damage: 71.1 -84.0 , av. Damage: 77.2
Gengar Life Orb Damage: 61.7 -72.6 , av. Damage: 66.7
Tyranitar Choice Scarf Damage: 27.4 -32.2 , av. Damage: 29.5
Tyranitar Choice Band Damage: 44.9 -52.8 , av. Damage: 48.5
Latios Choice Specs Damage: 100.0-100.0, av. Damage: 100.0
Heatran Substitute Damage: 35.5 -41.9 , av. Damage: 38.4
Starmie Life Orb Damage: 76.4 -90.1 , av. Damage: 82.8
Starmie Rapid Spin Damage: 36.8 -43.7 , av. Damage: 40.1

Careful (252,0,252)

ScizorChoiceband Damage: 62.7 -73.9 , av. Damage: 67.9
DoryuuzuSwordsdance Damage: 63.5 -74.9 , av. Damage: 68.8
RoobushinBulkup Damage: 41.4 -49.0 , av. Damage: 45.0
UrugamosuButterflysweeper Damage: 47.2 -55.6 , av. Damage: 51.0
Gengar Life Orb Damage: 40.6 -48.2 , av. Damage: 44.3
Tyranitar Choice Scarf Damage: 38.8 -45.9 , av. Damage: 42.2
Tyranitar Choice Band Damage: 64.2 -75.6 , av. Damage: 69.6
Latios Choice Specs Damage: 81.7 -96.7, av. Damage: 89.2
Heatran Substitute Damage: 23.6 -27.9 , av. Damage: 25.6
Starmie Life Orb Damage: 51.0 -60.2 , av. Damage: 55.1
Starmie Rapid Spin Damage: 24.6 -29.2 , av. Damage: 26.7

Since there's no usage statistics (afaik) on smogon server I'm using PO servers usage statistics. First lets compare how these Pokemons do against most common physical threats (Tyranitar, Scizor, Doryuuzu, Roobushin, Garchomp):

Against all these Pokemons (that are in top 7 on PO server) physical spread is much better. It allows you to set up against doryuuzu and garchomp which can't be done with special spread (and to lesser extend CB Ttar). It can also switch much easier to Roobushin, Doryuuzu and Scizor. Also from my own experience many more uncommon Pokemons like Terrakion, Rankurusu, Lucario, Blaziken (and basically any other high Attack fighter), Cloyster are capable of doing around same damage as Doryuuzu meaning without Criticals and Hazards Physically defensive Quagsire can switch to them (except Rankurusu) and can set up on them against 1 vs 1 (except LO/CB Rankurusu) which are all not possibly with specially defensive spread.

Now looking some most common special threats:

5) Gengar

As seen from damage calculations although the special defensive spread can take on Gengar much better, it still can't switch on it easily and setting curses against it won't probably work because of SpD drop happening eventually.

8) Heatran

Physically defensive gets only 3HKOed making it already pretty solid against Heatran. Specially defensive set is on the other hand pretty solid counter.

9, 10, 21) Burungeru, Politoed and Vaporeon

All of these carry very often Toxic ruining Quagsire no matter what spread.

12) Starmie

LO wins both sets and specially defensive set doesn't do much better against rapid spinner since it cannot stop it from spinning.

18, 23) Sazandora/Latios:

As seen from damage calculations not even max SpD investment let you beat these, especially since Unaware ignores Draco Meteors SpA drop. Also because they resist both STABs and are not weak to Stone Edge these are very common Quagsire switch-ins from my experience.

Urugamosu:

Physically defensive is 2HKOed and specially defensive 2HKOed sometimes. Specially defensive can't counter or set up curses against this and thus is not a big improvement from physical spread.

Skymin:

Both loses to it.

Darkrai:

Wins both with Dark Void usually.

Deoxys-A:

Naive LO Psycho Boost does 90.9% - 107.4% to specially defensive spread making it hardly better against this than the physical spread.

Summary:

Physical:
+ Much better against physical threats which all very common (Ttar, Doryuuzu, Garchomp)
+ Also the defense boost compared to specially defensive is very critical against very many less common physical attackers such as Blaziken, Lucario, Terrakion, Rankurusu, Cloyster, Physical Dragons, etc.
- More easily revenge killed by special side (Gengar, Starmie, etc)

Special:
- Can't switch to physical attacks very well
- Still revenged easily by many very strong and common special attackers (Specs Dragons, Skymin + other grass Pokemons, Deoxys-A)
- Still has problems with special attacking walls because of Toxic (Burungery, Politoed, Vaporeon, Blissey)
+ Can counter Heatran pretty nicely
+ Can take some weaker special attacks (LO Gengar, Darkrai) better (but usually not that well that it can counter these or set curses against these Pokemons).
 
#19
There are a few things that Plustle didn't catch, so I'll also proofread this... I'll do more later but right now I have to focus on my own analysis' :3 also i should probably wait until this gets QC approved
Deletions
Additions
Comments

Done, I think. Waiting QC approval.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Quagsire

[Overview]

<p>In a metagame dominated by boosting moves such as Swords Dance, Dragon Dance and Calm Mind, a brave Pokémon stands out as one of the best counters to most boosting sweepers: Quagsire. Dream World brought him the holy ability Unaware, and turned Quagsire into the most user of that Quagsire is the best user of it the way you worded sounded a bit weird (Clefable has Magic Guard, and Kokoromori and Bibarel are useless anyway). With Unaware, although he loses despite losing his a Water-type immunity since Quagsire has to opt between it and Water Absorb would give him, he becomes one of the best Swords Dance Doryuuzu, Shell Break Cloyster and Swords Dance Randorosu checks in the game! If you think that Quagsire only got it Unawere, think twice. He got Boiling Water as a bonus in this Generation, being able to cripple many physical sweepers because of its high Burn chance. There's nothing wrong with this, but keep in mind that Quagsire's Special Attack is ass</p>

<p>However, not everything is good for Quagsire. His fellow Water / Ground competitor it doesn't matter what word you use here, but you have to use something, even "friend" would work Gastrodon got an update in his ability, making him a better choice if the job is for walling Water pokémon Pokemon "Pokemon" should alawys start with a capital "P" and we don't use the apostrophe above the "e". One of his best moves, Encore, got nerfed, and with Nattorei walking around taking little damage from everything that Quagsire has, it's hard to call that Quagsire is worth to a slot in a team find room for Quagsire on your team., And and Quagsire is still very afraid of Grass moves and Taunt. However, do not be discouraged by the aforementioned flaws, sice Quagsire is still a good pokémon Pokemon to use, especially if "especially if" isn't wrong but in my opinion it's inaccurate, I would only use Quagsire if I had a problem with a boosting sweeper, but feel free to leave it that way you have weakness to boosting sweepers.</p>

[SET]
name: Physically defensive.
move 1: Boiling Water
move 2: Recover
move 3: Yawn / Toxic
move 4: Earthquake
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Nature: Relaxed
Evs.: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

[Set comments]

</p>With Unaware, Quagsire can become one of the best counters to some of the most dangerous physical sweepers that are threatenning the in the new metagame, such as Cloyster, Doryuuzu, Scizor, and Randorosu. and many others when you say "such as," you're giving example so you don't need to put "and many others.". Boiling Water is the a staple of on this set, with its high 30% chance of burning the foe, and with Quagsire's moderately high Defense stat, it will dish out take physical hits easily if the foe is burned dish out means "distribute," not "take.". Recover's purpose is to keeping him alive. In the third slot, Yawn can force some switches, while Toxic kills special pokémon Pokemon with a recovery move, and that are unaffected by the burn from Boiling Water (of course, Quagsire won't use any of them if the foe is burned from Boiling Water). you had a compound sentence there, so you need a comma before "and" Finally, in the last slot, Earthquake adds some coverage ith Boiling Water.</p>

[Additional comments]

<p>A few more options moves can go in the last slot. Safeguard protects Quagsire and its comrades against status. Ice Beam helps against Dragons and Grasses-types. Stone Edge scares hurts Urugamosu more than Boiling Water. you can't really scare it before you use the attack since it doesn't know you have the attack Finally, Stockpile can turn Quagsire into an unbreakable wall if the foe doesn't have a Grass move. The Evs give maximum physical bulk with the remaining Evs are put in Special Defense. Of course, you can move that Evs to his Attack or Special Attack for more power. we generally don't use abreviations for stats in a formal analysis</p>

Is this supposed to be a counters sections?

</p>Erufuun can use either Taunt or use a Grass STAB to move on Quagsire. Other Grass-types that don’t fear neither Toxic nor burn from Boiling Water, too much like Celebi, Shaymin and Roserade are also excellent counters You should actually consider removing the "or don't fear..." part because all three of these have Natural Cure, and Roserade with Technician still can't be poisoned. Urugamosu is a good partner to for Quagsire, as it resists Quagsire’s weakness to Grass, and Quagsire resists Urugamosu's weakness to Rock hey it gets Water Absorb too! Also, comma again for a compoud sentence. Urugamosu can switch into Grass attacks aimed to Quagsire and then either proceeding to kill the Grasses-types with its STAB fire Fire should be capitalized move of choice or settting up with Butterfly Dance. A pokémon Pokemon that benefits from Quagsire’s resistances and immunities also pair well with him, like Skarmory, who can survive the Grass moves that pursue Quagsire, and in return, Quagsire can wall switch in on the Fire and Electric-type attacks aimed at Skarmory. If Yawn is selected, entry hazards are welcome since Yawn will force many switches.</p>

[SET]
name: Curse
move 1: Curse
move 2: Recover
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Waterfall / Stone Edge
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Nature: Impish
Evs.: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def

[Set comments]

<p>Quagsire can boost his mediocre Attack, as well as his respectable Defense with Curse, yet Swampert and Gastrodon also can. But capitalize -> there is one main reason to use this Cursing Curse Quagsire over Gastrodon and Swampert: Unaware, which. Unaware allows Quagsire to set up Curse in the face of some sweepers that can't damage it much. Curse was already discussed above. Recover keeps Quagsire alive. Earthquake is his main damaging move, being super effective against Doryuuzu, Jirachi, Tyranitar, Heatran, Metagross, Magnezone and others (watch out for Balloon). His last move is if you want another reliable STAB move (Waterfall) or the best coverage possible (Stone Edge). Also mention how Swampert doesn't get Recover.</p>

[Additional comments]

<p>252 HP Evs give Quagsire maximum bulk. Max Defense gives makes him almost resistant to What are you trying to say here?. Remaining Evs go to attack, but you can move the remaining Evs' leftover to Quagsire's Special Defense to make it more specially bulkyier. There are other options for the last slot.; I think a semi-colon would fit better here because the two sentences are related, but a period still works Aqua Tail is stronger than Waterfall, but has less accuracy. Body Slam can paralyze the foe with some luck, and Brick Break is a super effective move against Nattorei I guess this more on content, but Brick Break doesn't deserve a mention IMO, as STAB Earthquake is just as strong, and hits Rock-types and Steel-types harder. If you're going to use it however, you should mention that it hits Tyranitar harder and breaks screens. Ice Punch, while a good move, is unfortunately illegal with Unaware.</p>

<p>Grass-tyopes are still an obstacle for the success of this set. Status, like Poison and Burn, are also a pain for Quagsire. Celebi is a good partner for this set Quagsire this is under additional comments of a Curse set, so one can assume refering to Quagsire is refering to it using this set. , as it can remove status via Aromatheraphy or Heal Bell, while also resisting the Grass attacks that Quagsire hates I guess the plural form of "Quagsire" might be "Quagsire" so if you're refering to the Pokemon in general, you don't need the "s". Forretress is also a good teammate, as it can spin away the dangerous Toxic Spikes., and Iit also resists Grass. This set Quagsire enjoys entry hazards because Quagsire's Attack is bit low.; Forretress, mentioned above, is a good partner because of its ability of to spinning away Toxic Spikes, that which ruins this set, and can also set up all three types of entry hazards.</p>

[Team Options]

<p>OQuagsire is outgoing, meaning that a lot of pokémon Pokemon can benefit from his typing and ability of to countering many sweepers more on content, but I think he's more of a check than a counter; sweepers still hurt him. One good partner that follows the aforementioned characteristics is Heatran, who can be used at his best after Doryuuzu and Randorosu fall. Heatran can also come into the Grass moves aimed to Quagsire. Another good partner is Celebi, who can use Aromatherapy to heal Quagsire from nasty status and takes the Grass attacks that plagues the water fish while Quagsire takes the Poison and Fire moves that the pixie hates, as well as beat Tyranitar (remember the old CeleTranPert? Works the same way with Quagsire it worked with Swampert) I don't think you should be asking questions here. Also, pokémon Pokemon with the ability Herbivore, such as Baffuron and Mebukijika, pairs well with Quagsire, gaining a +1 Attack bonus when switching into the Grass moves that target Quagsire.</p>

<p>Quagsire has problems with status such as Poison and Burn. Forretress can use Rapid Spin to blow away those pesky Toxic Spikes. Forretress can also set up its own Toxic Spikes, as well as Spikes and Stealth Rock. In case of burn, Shandera pairs well with Quagsire because it can absorb Will-O-Wisps, Lava Plumes or any Fire-type move that can burn with Flash Fire and then proceed to either set up Calm Mind, Substitute, or just killing with its scary 145 base SpA. Likewise, Heatran can come in the aforementioned moves and doing whatever it has to do. Boiling Water, a non Fire move that can burn, can be absorbed by Guts users like Roobushin and Heracross. Safeguard is also good for preventing status. Some good users of Safeguard include Latias and Wobbuffet.</p>

[Optional Changes]

<p>Quagsire has some interesting options under his belt. Counter works because Quagsire can take a physical hit and then Recover. Safeguard can protect Quagsire and his teammates against random status. Haze can reset the field, but Unaware outclasses it. Mist prevents the foe from lowering one of Quagsire's or the rest of the team's stats, but is situational. Rest + Sleep Talk is good if you are worried about status. Encore, formerly a good option, got nerfed and isn't a good option anymore. Finally, Stockpile can make Quagsire an unbreakable wall.</p>

<p>Choice Band is possible, but 85 base Attack won’t hurt enough. Choice Specs is in the same boat as Choice Band, doing even less damage because of his bad 65 base Special Attack. Lum Berry cures Quagsire from harmful status, but the Leftovers' loss is significant. Acid Bomb lowers the foe's Special Defense by 2 stages and can force switches. Ice Punch is great against Dragons and Grasses, but is illegal with Unaware. Water Absorb is a good ability, but Quagsire is outclassed by Gastrodon.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Grass-type pokémon are a thorn in Quagsire's foot, in particular the ones that have Poison as their secondary type as they're immune to Toxic, such as Roserade, Morobareru and Venusaur. Grasses that don't fear the burn from Boiling Water are other kind of counters, like Doredia, Shaymin (S), Marakacchi, Nasty Plot Shiftry, Celebi and so more. Physical Grass types such as Breloom, Leafeon, Abomasnow and Nattorei can smack Quagsire with a powerful Seed Bomb, Leaf Blade, Wood Hammer of Power Whip respectively, but they can’t switch in Boiling Water due its high Burn rate. Other pokémon that often uses Grass moves also fare well against Quagsire. Quagsire will often use support and status moves more than attacking moves, so if a pokémon can use Taunt and isn’t weak to Boiling Water or Earthquake, it can be considered as a Quagsire check. Good examples include Erufuun, Azelf, Torunerosu and Borutorosu.</p>

[Dream World]

<p>Unaware Quagire had already been released and discussed above. It's a great ability that puts him apart his Water / Ground cousins Swampert and Gastrodon. Unfortunately, Dream World also brought drough Ninetales, that, while not a direct counter to Quagsire, her ability to set up automatic an infinite Sunny Day brings a lot of Grasses that have Clorophyl such as Victreebel and Shiftry the chance of being overused.</p>
EDIT: Also, you should change the status to "Written; awaiting QC approval" or something. Done means QC approved, GP checked, and ready to be posted on-sight.
 

panamaxis

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#21
I disagree with locopoke, Curse Quagsire is actually quite good with unaware. Not that it matters a huge deal but wouldn't we be better off putting the last 4 evs into speed for the physically defensive set?

Anyway, this looks good.

Quality Control Approved 1/2
 
#22
I disagree with locopoke, Curse Quagsire is actually quite good with unaware. Not that it matters a huge deal but wouldn't we be better off putting the last 4 evs into speed for the physically defensive set?

Anyway, this looks good.

Quality Control Approved 1/2
Thanks Panamaxis, but that 4 Spe Evs seems confusing with a Relaxed Nature. Thanks, anyway (added that).
 

panamaxis

how many seconds in eternity?
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion
#23
yeah but 4 Special Defense EVs are likely to not do anything really, at least with 4 speed you have a chance to tie with other quagsires and potentially get a recover off if you're on low health or finish them off if they're on low health. Again, doesn't matter too much but thought I'd mention it.
 
#24
yeah but 4 Special Defense EVs are likely to not do anything really, at least with 4 speed you have a chance to tie with other quagsires and potentially get a recover off if you're on low health or finish them off if they're on low health. Again, doesn't matter too much but thought I'd mention it.
I see. Added in AC.

Only one more QC and then my terrible Grammar/Spelling will cause Nightmare in the poor GP checkers.
 
#25
I agree with Eo, Curse Quagsire has a pretty nice niche with all the stat boosters like Roobushin floating aorund. It proved itself when I tested it on my joke team (ironically) and Lady Bug swears by it, so I agree that it deserves a place on the analysis. Shouldn't it be maxed out in Special Defense though? It seems kind of strange to have all the Defense only to be boosting it further with Curse.

QC Approved 2/2