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Rating Basics

Discussion in 'Rating Activities' started by Jimbon, Dec 15, 2011.

  1. Governess

    Governess A Beautiful Blossom Waiting to Bloom
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    I'm also starting to rate RMT's alongside making them. I always get intimidated to rate a team; mostly for the reason that my rate won't be helpful/useful to others. Here is my first rate:
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3480055

    I didn't do much, just scrape the basics. What could I improve on for rating?
  2. Cinco Diablo

    Cinco Diablo

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  3. Raiza.

    Raiza.

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  4. Governess

    Governess A Beautiful Blossom Waiting to Bloom
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  5. Jimbon

    Jimbon FAKE TRAIN
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    @ Shurtugal: Looking at this rate, I would agree with your Choice Scarf Jirachi suggestion. Even though the team is built specifically with Ditto in mind, I'd argue Ditto is incredibly situational and is not something that you can always rely on, especially when performing a role as crucial as a scarfer on such an offensive team. It provides him with a switch for Lati@s, while like you said, providing him with important momentum via U-Turn, which works great when paired with such a potent sweeper as Lucario as it can often bait switches and give the OP free setup opportunities.

    Your other suggestion was dropping Hidden Power [Fire] for Surf, just to have a chance to speed tie with opposing Lati@s. I'm not entirely sure that's a reliable way to deal with the Lati@s, and seems more of a last ditch effort and kind of a waste really, especially given the team's weakness to Swords Dance Scizor and Hidden Power [Fire] still offers him better overall coverage. Your final change was the EV spread change on Thundurus-T, which while it might serve a better purpose over his current Thundurus-T spread, you have failed to explain what the EV spread does. If you're going to suggest such an intricate EV spread that has special investment to kill / live / outspeed something, then you definitely should try to include that in your rate, otherwise it just looks like you've entered random investment that has no meaning.

    @ MCBarrett: Considering that you've just recently started rating, these rates are pretty good. In a lot of your rates, you're making solid and justified changes that do improve the team. I don't really have anything to say for the majority of your rates, but in some rates you don't really seem to be patching up the problems that you have identified. For example, in this rate you suggest a Rotom-W over Jellicent for Mamoswine, and then you go on to say...

    Rotom-W is not an answer for Mamoswine, especially not with the set you've listed. The standard Specially Defensive Rotom-W is 2HKO'd by Adamant Mamoswine, while Jolly sets put Rotom-W very low, to the point where you're not switching in again after Stealth Rock. Honestly, if you wanted a little more insurance for Mamoswine, then just make Jellicent physically defensive. It does a better job of beating Mamoswine than Rotom-W will ever do, while also helping him out greatly against Scizor and Terrakion aswell. Between Physically Defensive Jellicent, Scizor and Starmie, he shouldn't have any troubles with Mamoswine.

    Your rates are pretty good, but just be sure to backup your claims with damage calculations if you're not sure. Also if you want a quick fix to a problem, don't always try to change a team member in the progress. There may be other alternatives to changing a team member, that won't interrupt the function of the team. Rotom-W also opens up many more exploitable weaknesses that Jellicent covers, so think about what you're going to change before you suggest it. Don't be discouraged though, if you are new to rating you'll definitely improve in time -- it's how I started rating. Consider my advice when rating and you might find it a little easier, good luck rating!

    @ Governess: I only briefly looked over your first 4 or so rates you linked, and I'm not going to comment on those. Users posting teams such as these using stuff like Focus Sash Landorus and Hyper Beam Espeon are much better off being directed to Battling 101 for teambuilding help. It might sound rude but teams using these kind of sets aren't really worth your team, as everyone can point out that Hyper Beam is a bad move and suggest a change -- it doesn't show that you're a good team rater.

    As for the teams that weren't completely terrible [here and here], I think you should consider changing the way you're rating a team. From these rates, it seems like you're just looking for small nitpicks such as changing one move on a team and calling it a rate. I'd recommend trying to rate a team by identifying the threats to a team, and then trying to improve the team by eliminating those threats. If you're only changing an item or a single move on a Pokemon, your rate isn't actually going to improve the team a whole lot, which is more important considering you're rating teams that need a lot of help.

    But yeah, when you're rating you should be thinking "what actually gives this team trouble?", and "how can I remove those threats?". If you're new to rating then my best suggestion would be to look at a type synergy chart for reference to see what types in particular cause a team some problems, or even something more basic such as looking at a threat list and listing what is problematic for the team. It might be a little boring, but in time you'll definitely get better at rating, to the point when you won't need to use these for reference. Good luck rating!

    --

    I'm pretty sure I missed some people out, so I'll try to get round to you guys at some point if no other TRs do.
  6. Governess

    Governess A Beautiful Blossom Waiting to Bloom
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    Thank you for the helpful advice. I've been working on finding the main threat of a team, and fix/improve the team over the past two weeks. Here is another round of rates I've done; the oldest ones at the bottom, and gradually coming to the present to the top:

    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3480907
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3480704
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3480824
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3480721
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4620141
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3480527

    Have I shown any improvement from the last time I've presented my rates? What are more ways to improve? Thank you in advance. =)
  7. Livio

    Livio
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  8. VN.

    VN. im african and you know i got hyenus
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    First rate definitely improved the team, though I'm not seeing how Latias really beats RP Landorus-T, I'd have probably just run HP Ice Forry and replaced Xatu instead with the Heatran and Latias.

    Second rate is good too, you made the necessary changes to a team that really didn't need to many. An overlooked aspect in team rating is that a simple rate that truly improves the team is better than one that just makes it 'less weak' to threats while changing it up drastically.

    Keep up the good work ;)
  9. Cinco Diablo

    Cinco Diablo

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    So, I've been getting back into Rating and was wondering on how I am doing. Here are my last few rates.

    First Rate

    Second Rate
  10. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude Different breed imo
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    @ Dr Ciel with your first rate you did mention some nice changes but my main concern with the rate was that you didn't identidy the teams severe hazard weakness. Kyurem-B and Thunderous-T are both Stealth Rock weak, hazards + Life Orb will wear out Sharpedo very quickly and Politoed will also be damagd quite a bit from hazards because it will have to constantly switch in and out for two reasons. 1) to change the weather back to drizzle if versing weather teams and 2) because Politoed is choiced so it will have to switch a lot to avoid staying locked into one move. Ferrothorn can also set up hazards quite easily on Politoed locked into anything but Focus Blast, Jirachi in some cases and Sharpedo. I am not really too familiar with Toxicroak so I won't comment on your ev spread suggestion however I think just a standard Swords Dance Toxicroak would be better than a Bulk Up one as a sweeper. The team you rated also doesn't carry Stealth Rock so fitting that on the team would be quite important. Tbh I don't really think it was a well built team so rating it would of been a little difficult so props on giving it a go!

    In your second rate you did a good job of identifying Dragonite as a threat. Although Dragonite would have a hard time setting up on Terrakion and Latios especially if stealth rock is up. Honestly though the only real change I think needed to happen was Choice Band Scizor>Choice Scarf Because it gives Dragonite a much harder time switching in and it allows you to revenge kill it. Skarmory>Magnezone isn't really needed although Skarmory does help with Dragonite, between CB Scizor, Latios and Terrakion, Dragonite honestly won't be able to get too +2. You should only change in a rate what you have to, to make the team more efficient. Your suggestion of Ice Beam>Shadow Ball was good on Jellicent but you could of also mentioned how Shadow Ball is not essential because ttar can trap Starmie. I guess you could of recommended a Calm Mind Latias>Latios because it does the job better but that would probably be changing too much and it isn't really needed.

    to sum this up these rates were pretty decent so keep working on them! Your rates also have a little bit of fluff in them that isn't needed like how you say stuff like "hopefully this rate will help you iron out some flaws in your team" since you are rating a team, the team builder is already assuming that you will try and iron out flaws In his/her team. However I do understand that everyone rates differently and basically all this means is if you are feeling your rates are too long you can cut down on doing this but its not like its a bad thing or anything ^.^
  11. Organization Member XIV

    Organization Member XIV

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    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3481874 I've tried to start getting into rating, but I don't really want to try and start with really complicated rates, just want to get a feel for rating really. If I could get any feedback it would be greatly appreciated.
  12. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene ᴜияᴇᴄᴏɢиɪsαβʟᴇ
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    @ Organization Member XIV: For someone just starting to get into the rating trade, I think you're doing a pretty decent job at it. I'll start with giving you some props. You were dead accurate in identifying a weakness to Keldeo (but I would've gone further and said that rain overall is a problem for him), and your recommended change from Skarmory to Specially Defensive Jellicent is what his team needed. In regars to the moves selected, I would normally recommend Night Shade over Ice Beam, which doesn't really cover much. Meanwhile, Night Shade covers all variants of Keldeo rather reliably, thanks to the constant damage it deals. In addition, changing up his Metagross for a Ferrothorn is something I myself would've recommended, if only to further keep rain teams at bay. In a sense, these two changes also help mitigate his Gyarados weakness, but only if he plays his cards right.

    Now, for the slops. You didn't really help the OP deal with a small Blissey weakness, and a larger Breloom weakness. To deal with the Blissey weakness, I would've recommended using a CBTar (moves: Crunch | Pursuit | Stone Edge | Superpower) over his current Tyranitar set, which seems just like an inferior CBTar, based on the moves it has. Combined with the hazard-setting core of Mamoswine, Jellicent, and Ferrothorn, CBTar would've been able to close out any Blissey problems. To deal with Breloom, which can practically sweep his team 6-0, I would've recommended moving his Mamoswine's HP EVs to Speed and giving it a Jolly nature. This gives him a solid answer for all variants of Techniloom, and a pretty solid answer for Poison Heal variants. Also I would have recommended using a bulky Starmie over his Alakazam. Hazards are a problem, as is Keldeo, and Starmie is a pretty solid answer to both of them, courtesy of access to Rapid Spin to eliminate the former and Psyshock to eliminate the latter. Starmie also gives his team a tertiary Water resist, which should always be handy.

    Anyways, keep at it. Good luck in the rating business.
  13. Governess

    Governess A Beautiful Blossom Waiting to Bloom
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  14. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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  15. Jimbon

    Jimbon FAKE TRAIN
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    @ Governess: Nice to see that you have continued to rate, so hopefully I will try and help you out. The team you rated was using some pretty interesting sets, but not necessarily the most effective [Choice Scarf Starmie, ResTalk Tyranitar], so it was good that you identified these as inefficient and suggested better replacements. I fully agree with those replacements, as Salamence provides him with a much better late game sweeper while Starmie helps out a lot with his weakness to Keldeo.

    As for your other changes, namely the Jellicent suggestion, I was kind of torn on this. While it does help him out against Keldeo, it doesn't really help him against Sun Teams, which I'd argue are much more threatening to this team than Keldeo. I don't think you really covered the Sun weakness that he mentioned -- a way to go about this could've been to make Jellicent physically defensive with Night Shade + Will-O-Wisp > Scald + Toxic and make Zapdos specially defensive. Night Shade means that Jellicent can sustain consistent damage on its common switch-ins, which I'd argue is more reliable than Scald. These changes also mean you still beat Keldeo 100% of the time, while you gain an extra check against stuff like Rock Polish Landorus, Chlorophyll sweepers, SD Scizor and so on.

    The other change you made was the Scizor EV spread change, I should probably mention that the 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe spread for Scizor is for getting an extra switch into Stealth Rock, however I think this guy should be running considerable speed investment if he is running Swords Dance Scizor without Roost. On the topic on EV spreads, I do think that some of yours that you suggested were slightly inefficient -- namely the Jellicent spread, who definitely wants more speed if you want to stop Skarmory and burn Choice Band Tyranitar, who can Pursuit Jellicent easily and open up a path for Keldeo / Landorus.

    In general though, it seems like you're definitely improving since the last time I looked over your rates. In some of your suggestions though it does seem like you are attributing a generic solution to a problem you may see on multiple teams [suggesting Jellicent to beat Keldeo, always changing the Scarf Dragon on a team to Salamence]. I haven't looked over your other recent rates so I'm probably wrong, but this is a mindset that you should try to avoid -- the best way to do this is to try not to change any Pokemon on a team when rating it to fix a problem, but rather through move changes or EV spread alterations. Just my two cents though, you seem to be more comfortable with rating since your last post here. Hope I helped, good luck rating!

    --

    @ The Unlucky one: Going to attempt to give you some advice on all of these teams, so bear with me. Looking over your first rate, this is a solid rate. The first change you made was the Heracross > Salamence suggestion, which was really interesting to me as not a lot of raters would suggest Heracross in that spot. However Salamence and Heracross do perform very similar roles, they are both late game sweepers with Moxie as their ability and Heracross does patch up his Mamoswine problem to an extent.

    Your other changes in this rate were the move changes, which I liked a lot because you made a move change as a result of changing a move to fix that problem, meaning you didn't leave any problems left after making the change. This is something that you should always be sure to do after making a change, so it's great to see you've implemented this within your rate. The only thing I didn't really like about this rate was how you pretty much revamped his team to your liking at the end with the importable. While it may be tempting to change a team to your preferences, you have to remember that you're not trying to perfect a team, but moreso make it function better. Within that importable there were a considerable number of unexplained changes, that leave the OP clueless as to why they should make that change.

    Moving onto your second rate, I was kind of torn on your suggestions. While Life Orb Latias does help out against the Pokemon he listed as threats, it also does open up some pretty big problems. It leaves his team without a Physical Attacker, meaning he's going to have an even harder time against special walls, or even worse, Stall teams. The Life Orb Latias suggestion also exposes his weakness to Mamoswine, who sweeps him if Politoed has taken prior damage, which won't be difficult if he is leading with Politoed a lot of the time. To help with this you could've changed Tentacruel to a Timid physically defensive set with some investment to speed creep Mamoswine with Toxic, which not only beats Mamoswine, but forces Rotom-W out easier as Tentacruel can take a Volt Switch and eventually heal back up with Rain Dish and Black Sludge.

    Looking over your final rate, I really like how you introduced this rate, with the analysis of Wobbuffet and its role on the team -- it immediately showed that you knew how this team functioned, and as a result your changes were pretty solid. As for your changes, I would agree with most of them, primarily your Chandelure and Forretress changes, both of which were valid and well justified.

    As for your Life Orb Latias suggestion, I kinda disagree with this change, for the same reason as your other Life Orb Latias recommendation. Removing Dragonite does push his reliance on Chandelure to break through Special Walls, as Wobbuffet won't be doing that anytime soon given the majority carry a status and can force Wobbuffet out. When rating a team, it's also important to think about the composition of a team -- if this team loses Dragonite and receives Latias, he has no Physical Attacker. If he wanted a boost against weather teams, I would advise making Dragonite bulkier and give it Roost over something. This means he can heal up against stuff like Hippowdon without Ice Fang, and Choiced Politoed, maintaining Dragonite's health and compensating for times when the OP will not be able to spin successfully with Forretress.

    Pretty good rates in general, however I am seeing a recurring pattern. You seem to like suggesting Life Orb Latias to patch up the same problems over and over -- this is similar to the issue Governess had in his rates. You don't want to start attributing certain Pokemon to certain problems in every team, as you can quickly start removing important team members to fix a problem, and leave a bigger problem after you've finished rating. Try to work with what you have, Pokemon changes aren't always necessary, good luck rating!
  16. Raiza.

    Raiza.

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  17. Livio

    Livio
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  18. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Fastest man alive
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    @Mothisma:
    This is a fairly decent rate, but your logic and explanation could definitely use some improvement. You identified Ferrothorn as a threat because Scizor lacked Superpower- yet Keldeo, Thundurus, and Nidoqueen all defeat Ferrothorn with Fighting / Fire type attacks, so Ferrothorn isn't really that big of an issue. Then, because you think Fighting type attacks are already covered by teammates, you suggest Focus Blast (which is an even less reliable attack for that set.) It does have merit with Agility, however, but I would like to mention that because he lacked a spinner and he had sand, an Expert Belt or even zleftovers would definitely be better than LO, which would wear down his Thundurus very quickly. Scizor to Band and Lando-T over Nidoqueen were both pretty good suggestions, so nice job on that. It would definitely be nice if you could clarify your reasons a bit more in the future; Scizor --> Band is a good idea not because he's weak to Ferrothorn but because he needs another DrGon type check and a bulky yet hard hitting pivot.

    Probably might add more later.
  19. Dell

    Dell Winter Hibernation of the Yarnasauruses
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    Hello, fellow raters.

    I'm not sure how active this thread is since it has literally been 2 months since it received a last post, but I just thought that this would be a nice place of gaming my name out there with a few that I've been doing. I've been rating for quite some time actually, but I haven't gotten fully attached to it until recently, as I've been an advocate of studying teams since then so I've been dedicated with this for quite since then. I'm primarily a NU player, and thus only do NU rates for the time being and there hasn't been a whole lot of activity in regards to NU raters these days. Here are some to come!



    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4742248&postcount=2
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4743083&postcount=2
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4740746&postcount=3
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4706210&postcount=6 (a slightly older one than many of the rest, but I found this to be a good one too)
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4744692&postcount=4
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4742307&postcount=2

    Quite a few, but hope these are on the right path in-terms of quality!
  20. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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  21. VN.

    VN. im african and you know i got hyenus
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    uh first rate is okay, probably one of the better rates in the thread i'd have kept the stall core intact and played around with SpDef Hippowdon for alakazam and gengar and then used the rotom-w spot [you were right to change it, its the most expendable member] to cover up whatever's left, but with a more defensive pokemon, just not to change the nature of the team that much, scizor is decent because it beats most of what he listed as threats but subtler weaknesses remain within his team like Conkeldurr, Tornadus, and probably some others. one mistake in the rate is that the team probably doesn't lose to latias, even refresh or subcm, psong bi can pretty much beat any latias, basically mikey would use heatran to roar it out and save latias for the endgame where celebi psongs, it works almost every time, so id have kept celebi and not put on a latias.

    im lagging but ill get to the 2nd rate later

    edit: 2nd rate, otr reuniclus isn't relevant enough a threat in this meta to warrant a change [and lo latias doesn't really beat it per se], try to look for weaknesses to more commonly used mons, latias did kinda fix the fact that rp land is a problem at +2 so good job there, he'd also have to really outplay a stall player for the most part with no recover on starmie and no real core of breakers, but latias and volc do in fact do a nice job of breaking down a celetran core, overall latias wasn't a bad choice but otr reuniclus isn't the reason to change to it lol
  22. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    The point with choosing Latias was the other things I mentioned. OTR Reuniclus was kind of just an aside that pops up every once and a while and is annoying to be weak to.
  23. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas on good days I am charming as fuck
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  24. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Come on, she's not burned; she's just gone.
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    Jaiho likes this.
  25. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
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    No one has replied yet, but I'll try my best =]

    I like how you identified a problem and tried to solve it without changing the core of his team-kudos! A tangent here but bear with me. Think of rating as selling your advice, you want the OP to metaphorically 'buy' your advice and listen to you. No one is going to buy an item from a salesman if he or she doesn't know anything about it, or explains why the customer needs it in the first place. The team did have a slight problem with bulky Grass-types like Tangrowth and Amoonguss, as only Omastar can take them out quickly. It would've helped your case if you mentioned that nothing on his team likes / takes sleep from Sleep Power or Spore. Mentioning offensive Tangrowth would've been the lure Absol set seem better because then a Taunt from Misdreavus isn't helping much from LO Leaf Storms. That's the biggest flaw about the rate, there were other things that could've been said about the team but that's why we have rates xP

    tl;dr convince them with additional information about why they should trust you; One sentence usually won't suffice.

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