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Research Week Mk. II #3 - Relics, Disciples, and the Young

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Trinitrotoluene, Mar 4, 2013.

  1. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene 風林火山影稲妻
    is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,162
    Previous Research Week(s): Out Here (Week 1), I Remember [the Old Times] (Week 2)

    Research Week - OU Edition!
    Hosted by Trinitrotoluene and Novaray!
    [​IMG]__[​IMG]__[​IMG]__[​IMG]__[​IMG]
    Duration:
    March 4 - March 25*
    *: This is an arbitrary date. This Research Week will end when discussion ends.

    nota bene: When you give out your Glicko2 rating, be sure to give your deviation alongside it! Also, when giving out a rank, be sure to specify what ranking method it falls under (e.g. ACRE, Glicko2, GXE).

    Research Week looks to investigate Pokemon that have potential in OU, be it in stats, movepool, or supporting their team, to serve as an innovative choice in today's metagame. These are Pokemon that, for the most part, remain relatively untested. Novaray and I have selected some Pokemon we feel, with help from everyone else, could see the rise of new and powerful sets, or the fulfillment of a particular niche. Perhaps the title is a bit of a misnomer; in fact, this installment (and likely future ones) of Research Week will continue as long as the discussion does, and that's where you all come in.

    If you have anything to say about any of these Pokemon, please post about them! It doesn't matter if you've used them or have just faced them in battle, anything is fine (but please, do try them). Just be sure to back up your posts with good competitive reasoning, such as damage calculations! Posting replays showcasing the Pokemon you selected is especially encouraged.
    • Be open-minded, don't just say something is terrible and walk away; at least look into them and see what options they may be able to utilize!
    • Feel free to theorymon, but make it clear that you are theorymoning. At the end of the Research Week, however, we want discussion to move towards how useful the Pokemon actually are in OU, and what sets are effective on them.
    • Just because an analysis has been done for a Pokemon doesn't mean there isn't more to explore; it's quite possible that something might have gone unnoticed or is missing.
    • Do not post in this thread complaining about the Pokemon we choose and/or suggesting ones we should do for future weeks. We want discussion to stay on topic about the Pokemon we are researching. Feel free to VM / PM yours truly or Novaray these suggestions, but don't expect the next research week to have all the Pokemon you suggested, or any of them.

    So, the 4 Pokemon we will be looking at this research week are Cobalion, Togekiss, Chandelure, and Shaymin!

    .[​IMG].[​IMG].[​IMG].[​IMG].
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Here are some questions to think about as this Research Week progresses:
    1. How useful are these Pokemon in OU?
    2. What sets can they run effectively?
    3. What gives them trouble?
    4. What advantages do they have over other Pokemon?
    5. What niche can this Pokemon fill in teams?
    6. Are they worth the team slot on your team or is it outclassed?

    Discuss; the discussion that come out of this will surely be illuminating! Don't forget, you're not just limited to this topic to discuss these Pokemon. The #pokemon IRC channel is a perfectly suitable place to discuss them as well. At the end of the discussion period, hope we can reach a general consensus on how good these Pokemon really are, and that we might find some interesting discoveries.

    Alright, now that that's out of the way we can get to the fun part of this. First up, Research Week will now have a duration of roughly two weeks (actual duration: up until the discussion stops). The reason for this is as follows:
    The Research Week Challenge:
    • Users will use any number of the research week mons on their team
    • Users will attempt to reach as high as possible on the ladder with the Pokemon. Surpassing a Glicko2 rating of 2050 with a deviation of 75 or lower on the ladder with your registered alt will grant you a spot on the Hall of Fame: Platinum Class. Breaking past a Glicko2 rating of 2000 with a deviation of 75 or lower on the ladder with your registered alt will earn you a spot on the Hall of Fame: Gold Class. Crossing a Glicko2 rating of 1950 with a deviation of 75 or lower will secure you a Silver Class spot while a Glicko2 rating of 1900 with a deviation of 75 or lower will earn you a Bronze Class spot. Post a screen-shot of your peak and an importable of your team in order to achieve this.
    • Users will be expected to post their experiences with the Pokemon they use, the teams they used, the problems they encountered while trying to make the said Pokemon work.
    • If a user does not participate in the discussion, he will be passed over.
    In order to participate in the challenge, simply post what Pokemon you're trying and your fresh new alt (yes, this is mandatory). Post battle logs, experiences with your team on the ladder, and generally how a Pokemon has worked out for you: past or present.

    It has been noticed that the last few Research Weeks have been basically reduced to ladder runs. This completely defeats the purpose of Research Week where the idea is NOT TO see if a person can get a high ladder rating with an underused Pokemon but to subjectively assess as a community, whether that particular Pokemon is viable in the tier and discover its potential in the tier. In order to remedy this, an archive is going to be created, highlighting great posts. Don't forget that good posts in this thread will count towards getting the Community Contributor ([​IMG]) badge!

    Participants (18)
    User and Alt List (open)
    Format will go like this: username - alt - ladder standing
    • Lavos Spawn - spliffs - n/a
      • Research Subject(s): Shaymin
    • jpw234 - Shaymon You - n/a
      • Research Subject(s): Shaymin
    • .Robert - cr7 <3 - n/a
      • Research Subject(s): Chandelure
    • Dr Ciel - Jon Bon Jovi - 1478 ACRE; 1553 ± 48 Glicko2
      • Research Subject(s): Chandelure
    • Ryuuki - Sothe - 1224 ACRE
      • Research Subject(s): Togekiss
    • Aquasition - GentleGiratina - 1625 ± 57 Glicko2
      • Research Subject(s): Togekiss
    • rileydelete - none (rileydelete) - 1185 ACRE; 40 GXE
      • Research Subject(s): Shaymin
    • Cyredax - TogeWin - n/a
      • Research Subject(s): Togekiss
    • Electrolyte - Electrobalion - 1581 ACRE
      • Research Subject(s): Cobalion
    • q p - Shaymax - 1839 ACRE; 1905 ± 47 Glicko2
      • Research Subject(s): Shaymin
    • DarkBlazeR - Aureole - n/a
      • Research Subject(s): Shaymin
    • Tabuu - Haibara - n/a
      • Research Subject(s): Chandelure
    • Remedy - DanyDeLure - 1865 ACRE; 1956 ± 65 Glicko2
      • Research Subject(s): Chandelure
    • FinalEquin0x - AirTime - n/a
      • Research Subject(s): Togekiss
    • pkblizzard - PepTone - 1483 ACRE; 1591 ± 76 Glicko2
      • Research Subject(s): Chandelure
    • Shining Latios - Same Old - n/a
      • Research Subject(s): Shaymin
    • Virtuous Vice - [Victory] Victini彡 - n/a
      • Research Subject(s): Togekiss, Chandelure
    • SuperChillarmy - ChillAirForce - n/a
      • Research Subject(s): Togekiss
    • username - alt - n/a
      • Research Subject(s):
    Hall of Fame (2)
    Research Week Hall of Fame (open)
    Platinum Class: 2050+ Glicko2
    Currently none!​
    Gold Class: 2000-2049 Glicko2
    Currently none!​
    Silver Class: 1950-1999 Glicko2 (1)
    Remedy - [​IMG] Chandelure
    "I chose Chandelure because I think that its typing is amazing, and grants to Chandelure many advantages."
    Ladder Alt: DanyDeLure
    Rating: 1956 ± 65 Glicko2
    Date of Entry: 11 March 2013
    Answers to Questions

    [BOX]Full set:
    Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]
    - Trick[/BOX]​
    Bronze Class: 1900-1949 Glicko2 (1)
    q p - [​IMG] Shaymin
    "I originally tried to build a team around Shaymin. After that failed miserably I settled on using a team with Shaymin. Either way, Shaymin performed great in the role it was given."
    Ladder Alt: Shaymax
    Rating: 1905 ± 47 Glicko2
    Date of Entry: 9 March 2013
    Answers to Questions

    [BOX]Full set:
    Shaymin @ Life Orb
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 56 HP / 252 SpA / 200 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
    - Seed Flare
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Tailwind[/BOX]​
    Compendium of Great Posts (3)
    Archives and Stuff (open)

    A proper sign-up sheet should look something like this:

    [BOX]Username: Trinitrotoluene
    Alt: needs less testing
    Ladder Standing: N/A
    Research Subject(s): Togekiss, Shaymin[/BOX]
    Copypasta for the lazy:

    [BOX][noparse]username:
    alt:
    ladder standing:
    research subject(s):[/noparse][/BOX]

    Remember to update your original post with ladder progress and comment about your experiences! With that done, we look forward to see what you have to say!

    np: Klaxons - Golden Skans
    [youtube]XQ-8ORDtAxQ[/youtube]
  2. HackerKing

    HackerKing

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2012
    Messages:
    110
    Just thinking back to DPP OU, Togekiss was a monster. It took Jirachi's Paraflinch and combined it with Nasty Plot, and (arguably) better special bulk. Annoying everything in sight while healing with Roost launched it into the limelight.

    However, I have yet to use it in BW2 OU. All of the times I've faced it I've felt that it suffers from power-creep and the changing metagame in general. With Rain bringing Thunders and Sand bringing Stone Edge, Togekiss finds itself fewer and fewer set-up opportunities. Additionally it has to compete with Jirachi (who can abuse the weather significantly better).
  3. TaBuu

    TaBuu

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2012
    Messages:
    493
    I'm going to make this quick as I'm a bit short on time

    Cobalion and Chandelure are definitely two Pokemon I'd like to see get a little usage in OU. Cobalion has a wonderful typing, access to Taunt, Volt Switch and Stealth Rocks. With his enormous Defense stat, he can really function well in conjunction with various Dragons such as Dragonite.

    Chandelure is also really cool as he can threaten Sun Teams easy. Chandelure also makes for a pretty viable anti-Pokemon as not too many Rapid Spinners want to stay in on a Scarfed Chandelure.

    Anyways, really interesting thread we got here :]
    I plan on becoming real active on this one
  4. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    404
    Ooh, this looks like it'll be fun!

    On the subject of Cobalion, I've used it a good bit in the past, and I must say that it makes a fantastic wallbreaker/pivot. It's a bit unorthodox, but it's insane speed coupled with good bulk, Taunt, great coverage, and Volt Switch let it shut down a lot of common threats. I just posted an analysis on it in the OU Team Building thread, so look there if you want a more in depth summary.
  5. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte I'll be your light, your match, your burning sun
    is an official Team Rateris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,969
    Ah, I love Cobalion! I'm sure most of you have heard me rant some time or another about its effectiveness. I even have a team and a ladder ranking to prove how great it is! Here's my favorite set:

    [​IMG]
    Cobalion @ Expert Belt
    Naive Nature
    28 Atk / 252 SpA / 228 Spe
    ~Taunt / Stealth Rock / Thunder Wave
    ~Volt Switch
    ~Hidden Power Ice
    ~Close Combat


    Using this set, I peaked at #27 with a ranking of 2095. Cobalion has great qualities of an offensive support pokemon, and it's a great lead because of its fast support moves an access to a pivoting move, Volt Switch. It also has a great physically defensive typing too, letting it use its natural bulk to tank Outrages and OHKO things with its Expert Belted Hidden Power Ice (an OHKO on Lando-I and -T, Gliscor, Dragonite, Salamence, and Garchomp) Here are some of the things it can do:

    Stop physically defensive walls / support pokemon. This was especially true in the Deo-D era, as Cobalion could easily outspeed and Taunt with relatively little possible drawback. Even though Deo-D is gone now, Cobalion's fast Taunt can still be used on a majority of OU support pokemon. The evs let you outspeed max speed Garchomp, so everything at 102 Spe and below can be Taunted. This includes but is not restricted to, Dragonite, Salamence, Jirachi, Ferrothorn, and Forretress (even Volcarona if you have the nerve). Cobalion's awesome typing and coverage decrease the anount of ways your opponent can hit you- for example, pokemon like Forretress or Ferrothorn can't scratch Cobalion's rough hide, while continuous CC's can eliminate both. Pokemon like Gliscor that come in expecting a CC can be OHKO'd by Hidden Power Ice, and bulky water types don't like taking Volt Switches.

    Revenge killer. Although Cobalion's offensive stats aren't that great, it's just enough to be able to revenge some weakened / x4 weak opponents. As I stated above, most x4 weak to ice pokemon can be immediately OHKO'd. Lucario is always OHKO'd by CC, and Breloom can also be OHKO after some prioir damage. Gyarados can be OHKO'd by Volt Switch, and Tyranitar / Hydreigon by Close Combat. Cobalion can also cleave a large chunk off of many sweepers, so often just a little bit of damage is necessary. Thundy-T takes ~60% from HP Ice, Scizor takes ~57% after a Superpower, and NP Celebi takes ~45% from EBelt HP Ice. Keep in mind that although Cobalion is quite weak, it has the bulk to take multiple hits from opponents, so often being able to 2HKO is good enough.

    Lead. Cobalion is an excellent lead as its Taunt can stop other leads, and it can Volt Switch if the matchup isn't so great. If you run Stealth Rock, it can also get them up for you quite quickly and easily. Its Hidden Power ice can also grab some early surprise KO's, as it baits pokemon like Gliscor / Lando-T which are easy KO's.



    What gives Cobalion trouble?
    Pretty much anything with powerful special attacks or decent bulk without any x4 weaknesses. Psychic types are a nightmare, as Cobalion's weak attacks don't usually do enough to scratch their larger SpDef stats. Because Cobalion's SpDef is a bit lacking, powerful special moves like Keldeo's HPump or Alakazam's Psychic can also dent it a lot. Fighting / Ground types also give Cobal nightmares; Hippowdon / Donphan can use their massive bulk to shrug off HP Ice and KO with EQ. Terrakion can come in on Taunt / HP Ice and OHKO with Close Combat. Conkeldurr can easily take Cobal down too. Pokemon that resist Cobal's moves can also beat it in general- Volcarona and Lati@s are great examples, as they can all hit hard from Cobal's less bulky special side. Status really fucks with Cobalion; burns quickly wear it down because it lacks recovery.
  6. BlackLight

    BlackLight

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
    Messages:
    650
    Yeah, Electrolyte's set is pretty cool, I've used it before to decent success.

    Anyways, Shaymin hasn't really gotten anything yet, so I'd like to speak about it. Not gonna lie, most of the things Sharmin can do are outclassed by the various Grass types in OU. Celebi's typing is generally more useful, even though it does bring a few weaknesses, while Ferrothorn is in the same boat.
    Shaymin has some uses, though. It can be used as a fairly effective pivot due to its nice bulk, powerful STAB in Seed Flare, decent coverage in Earth Power and a Hidden Power of choice, and the ability to heal off damage thanks to Rest and Natural Cure. It can, of course, run a SubSeed set with its good Speed and bulk. Shaymin has some other stuff, too. You can opt to get rid of Rest and give it another support option, if you need it. Shaymin can put things like Toxic, Aromatherapy, and Tailwind to good use. For the most part, though, don't expect to see Shaymin too often; its role in OU is limited by other Grass types with much bigger niches.

    A rule of thumb for Shaymin is that if it can beat Celebi, it can most likely beat Shaymin, seeing as Shaymin is very similar to Celebi. The only exceptions to this rule are those who capitalize on Celebi's Psychic typing, and Shaymin's access to Seed Flare. Seed Flare makes it difficult to really wall Sharmin that well, since the Sp Defense drop is both common and devastating. For example, physically defensive Skarmory, after a drop in Sp Defense, will be taking 61-78% from a Life Orb Hidden Power Ice, which has a chance to KO if Skarmory has taken SR or prior damage. Seed Flare is really Shaymin's ace, so to speak. If you aren't using it, its probably a better option to use something else.

    But yeah, Shaymin is worth using if you're looking for a bulky attacker with support options. Outside of that, though, you should probably ask yourself if something else would be more useful.

    Set
    Show Hide

    [IMAGINE SHAYMIN SPRITE HERE, THANK YOU]
    Life Orb
    Timid
    252 Speed, 252 Sp Attack, 4 HP
    2 Attack, 30 Defense

    Seed Flare
    Earth Power
    Hidden Power Ice
    Rest/Aromatherapy/Tailwind/Toxic
  7. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    2,905
    maybe i'll do this

    Username: lavos spawn
    Alt: spliffs
    Ladder Standing: not yet
    Research Subject(s): shaymin
  8. jpw234

    jpw234

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Messages:
    136
    I'm using Shaymin because it's a Keldeo counter that isn't Pursuit bait, it does pretty well. Not sure about the best EV spread for it though.

    Username: jpw234
    Alt: Shaymon You
    Ladder Standing: nothing yet
    Research Subject(s): Shaymin
  9. lolazo

    lolazo

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2012
    Messages:
    36
    Shaymin (Like BU Breloom) was very good in BW1 with volturn dominating OU and with Scarf Landorus popular, Celebi can't take a U-Turn but Shaymin can and can retaliate with Seed Flare and Hp Fire for Scizor, but actually in BW2 Celebi outclasses Shaymin thanks to Keldeo and Technician Breloom, Celebi is a Better Grass Type due to Counter better the new Threads, and The Better Movepool (Recover, T-Wave, Perish Song, N-Plot, U-turn),
  10. .Robert

    .Robert
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,474
    Username: Robert
    Alt: cr7 <3
    Ladder Standing: N/A
    Research Subject(s): Chandelure
  11. Cinco Diablo

    Cinco Diablo

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2012
    Messages:
    1,263
    Username: Dr Ciel
    Alt: Jon Bon Jovi
    Ladder Standing: 1478 (1553 Glicko2)
    Research Subject(s): Chandelure
  12. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene 風林火山影稲妻
    is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,162
    Dr Ciel, you need a fresh ladder alt, unless you've already been doing battles with Chandelure on it.
  13. Cinco Diablo

    Cinco Diablo

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2012
    Messages:
    1,263
    Yeah, I've been laddering with Chandelure on it.
  14. Ryuuki

    Ryuuki

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2012
    Messages:
    112
    Oh time to prove that Togekiss can be usedfull in OU =D

    So this is a new and fresh acc that I've been playing on today with togekiss but I havn't been able to put it into much use =(

    Username: Ryuuki
    Alt: Sothe
    Ladder Standing: 1224
    Research Subject(s): Togekiss
  15. Aquasition

    Aquasition

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Messages:
    213
    I've been looking for a way to make Togekiss useful(It's one of, if not my favorites after all). Maybe I'll find a way here. I'm in this. :D

    Username: Aquasition
    Alt: GentleGiratina
    Ladder Standing: Currently at 1625 deviation 57 of Glicko2
    Research Subject: Togekiss
    What I can currently say about this test: 1. Murphy's Law. 2. Togekiss has major competition with Jirachi for mixed and paraflinch, and Celebi for Nasty Plot sets, but he has a different typing than the two, and flinches from the special side, as well as good special bulk.
    If you manage to give the NP boosts to a RP Sheer Force Lando-I, Things are going to get messy for your opponent.

    Yeah, I'm not going to get to bronze. ever.
  16. rileydelete

    rileydelete

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2012
    Messages:
    324
    hmmm, this sounds fascinating. I'm not much of an OU player (I like Ubers), but I would love to test out Shaymin. Shaymin-S is a true force in Ubers and I'd love to see how it's alternate form performs in a lower tier. Let's do this!

    Username: rileydelete
    Alt: none (rileydelete)
    Ladder Standing: current OU ranking of 1185. GXE of 40.
    Research Subject:-Shaymin
  17. rileydelete

    rileydelete

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2012
    Messages:
    324
    Hi, here's an early report on my time with Shaymin so far.

    From initial playtesting with Shaymin, I've found it's combination of Rest and Natural Cure is extremely powerful. When you then add Shaymin's base 100 stats into the mix, it becomes extremely hard to kill.

    Additionally, I opted to give it Air Slash over Earth Power and have found it let's Shaymin completely destroy fighting and grass types in the tier with ease.

    Early Responses to the Initial questions:

    1)How useful is Shaymin in OU?
    Right off the bat, its clear that this thing is viable, it's Seed Flare hits extremely hard and as mentioned earlier, Natural Cure and Rest make a very powerful combo.

    What sets can Shaymin run effectively?
    Shaymin in OU really has one viable set and that's as a bulky special attacker. Subseeding is done better by other pokemon such as Breloom while being a cleric is a job better suited for Celebi, Chansey, or Blissey.
    Here's the set I'm using:

    [pimg]497[/pimg]
    Shaymin (Regular)
    Ability: Natural Cure
    Item: Life Orb.
    Nature: Timid
    Ev Spread: 224 HP / 188 SpA / 96 Spe
    Moveset:

    -Seed Flare
    -Air Slash
    -Hidden Power Fire
    -Rest

    What gives Shaymin trouble?
    Shaymin is really bad against Sun teams. It's out-sped by anything with Chlorophyl and all it takes is one sun boosted flamethrower to make Shaymin go down. Rain teams are another story, but I'll talk about that below.

    What advantages do they have over other Pokemon?
    Again, the combination of Rest, Natural Cure, and Base 100 defensive stats make Shaymin incredibly bulky and hard to kill. I've really never seen such a cool combo. This makes it stand out from other Natural Cure users because it can give damage as well as take it. Also, with rest, it walls status spreaders like Chansey because it can get hit with something like toxic, attack once or twice, rest, and then switch out with full health, ready to come back in and start attacking again.

    As a final note, again, STAB Seed Flare makes Shaymin hit like a truck. I'm starting to see why Shaymin-S was banned to Ubers now.

    What niche can this Pokemon fill in teams?
    Shaymin is a great answer to both water types and rain teams in general. If you have issues with Jellicent, Rotom-W, Ludicolo, or other bulky water types, stick a Shaymin on your team and watch it go to town. Also I know it can also be a team cleric with Aromatherapy, but as I said before, it's only real viability is as a bulky special attacker.

    Are they worth the team slot on your team or is it outclassed?
    Yes, after early playtesting it's one of, if not the, most useful pokemon on my team and totally deserves a slot. It's outclassed outside of it's bulky offensive role though. Subseeding is a bad idea.

    In short, just from some immediate usage, I've found regular Shaymin performs really well.
  18. Lyconik

    Lyconik

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Messages:
    89
    Username: Cyredax
    Alt: TogeWin
    Ladder Standing: Not yet
    Research Subject(s): Togekiss

    Aka TogeHaxx
  19. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte I'll be your light, your match, your burning sun
    is an official Team Rateris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,969
    Username: Electrolyte
    Alt: Electrobalion
    Ladder Standing: 1581
    Research Subject: Cobalion

    Going for another shot with my old team. Haven't used it in a while, and boy has the metagame changed since then
  20. q p

    q p horrible person
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2012
    Messages:
    64
    This looks like fun, I'll give Shaymin a try. Will update this post with some thoughts on it once I've played a few matches.

    Username:
    q p
    Alt: Shaymax
    Ladder Standing: 1344
    Research Subject(s): Shaymin
  21. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Messages:
    387
    Username: DarkBlazeR
    Alt: Aureole
    Ladder standing: n/a
    Research subject: Shaymin
  22. TaBuu

    TaBuu

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2012
    Messages:
    493
    Username: Tabuu
    Alt: Haibara
    Ladder standing: None
    Research subject: Chandelure
  23. Groudon ex

    Groudon ex

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2007
    Messages:
    248
    i might have a go at this challenge later, but for now here's my thoughts in brief on each of the research subjects.

    cobalion: the fighting weakness sucks, but aside from that seems like a pretty decent mon. can't really check that much aside from some dragons, but the pivot qualities are there and it has taunt which means it's not setup fodder and isn't useless versus stall. probably hard to fit on most teams though as it's usually outclassed by other steels, e.g. scizor, jirachi, forretress etc

    togekiss: honestly not that great in this meta, its bulk is hardly what it used to be. stats alone just don't cut it in bw2, you need to have a good palette of resistances too. most strong neutral attacks, especially weather boosted ones, will easily 2hko togekiss. obviously paraflinch is still annoying but jirachi can actually switch into stuff and hence does this much better.

    chandelure: alright spinblocker on sun teams with a choice scarf. that's pretty much all it can do though.

    shaymin: i actually think shaymin is quite underrated. obviously it's not as good defensively as celebi because it doesn't have the oh-so-useful fighting resistance, but there are a few qualities going for it. its offensive presence is something that's already been mentioned many times, but really its main advantage over celebi is that it's not pursuit weak. i cannot begin to tell you how huge that is in this metagame. offensive shaymin is a nice member on teams which require something that can stand up to and threaten many of the common rain/sand mons. thanks to natural cure rest, it does maintain a good degree of longevity. give it a shot.

    @rileydelete: i don't understand why you have both air slash and hidden power fire. you don't really need the coverage of air slash - breloom already takes a ton from hp fire, keldeo is weak to seed flare and other fighting mons take more from a stab seed flare than an un-stabbed super effective air slash. replace air slash with earth power so that your shaymin isn't effortlessly walled by heatran. i personally prefer hp ice too, but that's your call.
  24. q p

    q p horrible person
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2012
    Messages:
    64
    Reached 1900 today so I guess it's about time for a report on Shaymin.

    I originally tried to build a team around Shaymin. After that failed miserably I settled on using a team with Shaymin. Either way, Shaymin performed great in the role it was given.

    Ranking (open)
    [​IMG]

    Team (open)
    Garchomp @ Life Orb
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Hasty Nature
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast
    - Stealth Rock

    Lucario @ Life Orb
    Trait: Inner Focus
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Bullet Punch
    - Swords Dance

    Landorus @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 64 HP / 252 SAtk / 192 Spd
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Focus Blast
    - Rock Polish

    Keldeo-Resolute @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
    - Hydro Pump
    - Surf
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Secret Sword

    Tyranitar @ Choice Band
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 148 HP / 252 Atk / 108 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Crunch
    - Pursuit
    - Stone Edge
    - Aqua Tail

    Shaymin @ Life Orb
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 56 HP / 252 SAtk / 200 Spd
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Seed Flare
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Tailwind


    What sets can Shaymin run effectively?
    Here's what I used:
    [​IMG]
    Shaymin @ Life Orb
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 56 HP / 252 SAtk / 200 Spd
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Seed Flare
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Tailwind
    A generic bulky special attacker set. The given EV spread allows Shaymin to outspeed any Pokemon with up to base 80 Speed (~ Jolly Mamoswine/ Breloom) without boosts and pretty much the whole metagame as long as Tailwind is active. The combination of Earth Power and Hidden Power Fire provides Shaymin with just the coverage it needs and for some reason allows it to score a bunch of surprise KOs. Apparently somewhere someone once said that no Celebi will ever run Earth Power and Hidden Power Fire on the same set and people seem to assume the same for Shaymin. This, however, only works in Shaymin's favor.

    Admittedly I used Rest for the longest time, but never looked back after dropping it for Tailwind. Tailwind is godly. Use it. Seriously.

    Some other conceptually viable sets I could see Shaymin running are Scarf (it gets Healing Wish!), Specs or Substitute + 3 attacks. I personally wouldn't use any defensive sets since I feel most of them are largely outclassed by Celebi.

    What gives Shaymin trouble?
    Shaymin doesn't particularly enjoy the matchup against sun teams and frankly its defensive typing is kind of terrible in general.

    As far as defensive threats are concerned Latias and Latios stand out. Even with if it chooses to run HP Ice Shaymin just isn't going to win the direct matchup. Like any special attacker Shaymin doesn't exactly fare well against Chansey and Blissey, but it's actually able to force them out at times provided it gets lucky with Seed Flare and sets with Rest don't mind anything the pink blobs can throw at them. Truth is, what can wall Shaymin mostly depends on your choice of coverage moves. One could argue that Shaymin with Pursuit support is practically impossible to wall, but then again that's true for a lot of special attackers.

    The way most people handled my Shaymin in practice was by forcing it out with fast, reasonably bulky sweepers such as Latios or Garchomp.

    What advantages does Shaymin have over other Pokemon and what niche can it fill in teams?
    With base 100 stats across the board Shaymin is kind of a jack of all trades. Seed Flare allows it to hit extremely hard straight off the bat and means it has no truly safe switch-ins. It actually feels a little like a phazing move at times. Nothing ever stays in for long with -2 SpDef. Defensively Shaymin isn't bad either, base 100 defensive stats, effective immunity to status moves, access to reliable recovery moves, all of this coupled with Shaymin's offensive presence make it extremely hard for any opposing Pokemon to win the direct one on one matchup. In my opinion this is one of Shaymin's major selling points. Even though it was never intended as a direct counter to a certain Pokemon chances are Shaymin will at the very least fare reasonably well in a direct matchup against it. Basically... it makes great glue... I guess... ?

    Furthermore Shaymin has a great matchup against most rain teams. It also does amazing against a bunch of other specific threats. To illustrate here are some common Pokemon the set I used can handle: Scizor (arguably even baits it), Politoed, Breloom, Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, Heatran (with minimal prior damage) and Tentacruel.

    Since Shaymin is often compared to Celebi for obvious reasons, here are some of its notable advantages over the pixie: Seed Flare, Tailwind, not Pursuit bait.

    How useful is Shaymin in OU and was it worth the team slot on your team?
    Let's be honest, due to the fact that Celebi exists Shaymin has a rather narrow niche in OU. But damn, it's amazing at what it does and I don't regret using it in the slightest.

    Truth.
  25. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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