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Riolu [QC 0/3]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by kill yourself, Oct 13, 2012.

  1. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego No matter if it seems so hard, friends are near
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    Be sure to mention that Riolu is unable to kill bronzong, Claydol, or flygon if they have leftovers. It also can't do much to skarmory. Tornadus and Bronzong are pretty much full stops for the team.

    Also, ExtremeSpeed and feint (however unused) will always move ahead.
  2. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Yea mention Tornadus-T and Bronzong in Checks & Counter, please. Good catch, GatoDelFuego
  3. kill yourself

    kill yourself .|~Fashionista~|.
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    been a bit busy but i'll do the updates soon
  4. Bologo

    Bologo Have fun with birds and bees.
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    Honestly, I don't think I'd ever use this thing with Focus Sash. It requires far too much support just to keep the Sash intact.

    I've been using it with Eviolite instead, using just enough Speed to outspeed base 65s (ie. CB Scizor) and dumping the rest into HP/Defense/Special Defense. The spread I use gives him 284 HP and 222 in both defenses due to Eviolite. With this spread, he doesn't really need the Focus Sash, because he can survive most neutral hits on his own just fine with it. Hell, he takes a maximum of 86% from a 359 Attack Garchomp's Outrage, which is a fairly strong attack in the metagame. Really though, you can just bring it in after something dies and it should be able to survive a hit pretty comfortably as long as it isn't a boosted or super-effective hit.

    I realize that he now needs something to take out Breloom for him since he can't outspeed him with this spread, but it's honestly worth it, because being forced to carry a spinner, a magic bounce user, and all that crap makes it really difficult to use Riolu. I carry a Scarf Gothitelle with me anyway, so Breloom isn't even an issue most of the time.

    I didn't even really try to build the team around Riolu, I just kind of threw him into a spikestacking team to see how he'd do, and he did just fine. Basically, I think Eviolite Riolu is the better one because he's not so scared of entry hazards like the Focus Sash one is. Keeping up Focus Sash is far too annoying.
  5. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Going to approve this thing

    why?

    Because Riolu is possibly the only Pokemon that has a chance of INSTANTLY WINNING THE GAME for you. However low that might be on average, that's still huge. Riolu teams are designed around increasing their odds off success, and in that respect it reminds of a lottery. Sometimes you bet big, and win big, or sometimes you bet big and lose big. Assuming that the average team range between betting small and winning small or betting medium and winning medium, riolu teams bet big and can potentially win big (of course there are teams that bet small and win big but I digress). The point is Riolu is capable of guaranteed wins when used correctly(like baton pass) and that's enough to justify approving it imo. and it's one of the most unique Pokemon period, it deserves a little slack.

    [qc]1/3[/qc]
  6. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    I thought I'd just clarify that although I might have rejected moltres hastily, I still stand by my decision to reject this. Lots of sweepers are guaranteed wins under circumstances much easier to engineer, and are significantly more useful besides.

    Riolu is really just another sweeper, and not a very good one at that.
  7. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    [qc]2/3[/qc]
  8. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
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    Yeah, bologo's approach is best - it requires no support beyond entry hazards and those are a given on most teams anyway. And although I agree with most of PK's post I don't feel that it needs to be an 'all or nothing' sweeper - you can just as easily break this thing out early-mid game and wear the opponent down for a more orthodox sweeper.

    Regarding the last two moveslots, Magnet Rise is sorta neat since it increases the amount of things you can set up on - Scarf'd mons locked into Earthquakes and bulky Grounds like Gliscor suddenly become set up bait and Screech in conjunction with a powerful priority attacker can function as an 'oh shi...' button against opposing sweepers but I think Taunt is probably best, if only to reduce the chance of you being counterswept by their final Pokemon (say, you've Roar-killed everything else but their last Pokemon is Dragonite, Taunt prevents him from getting off a potentially gamebreaking Dragon Dance).

    ...

    Ugh WTF he doesn't even learn Taunt, how has this gotten to Page 2 without somebody noticing that the skeleton contains a move he doesn't even learn, noob QC team!
  9. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Just thought I'd clarify that I've not tested the eviolite version, but I wouldn't dismiss it. It's very nice to be able to do something in sand or hail, or with SR up; it's nice to be able to survive an unboosted dragonite extremespeed, to be able to use substitute effectively. Though you might have a lower chance of an outright sweep on a very dedicated team, I think Riolu should contribute more this way.

    Does anyone have a team I can put eviolite riolu onto? I really don't have much time at the moment, and teambuilding is a bit of an effort. I don't have any of my old teams to build on because of some computer trouble.
  10. Bologo

    Bologo Have fun with birds and bees.
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    Well, my team isn't the greatest (though it's a work in progress for an original team since I want to see if there's some untapped potential in some pokemon), but I can show a good replay that shows you how much easier it is to use Eviolite Riolu than the Focus Sash one:

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou3738837

    Basically, I get my entry hazards up, a few turns pass, and I get rid of his priority user with Gothitelle. His Keldeo then comes in on my Heatran, I let Heatran die, Riolu comes in after Heatran dies, takes about 60% from a Surf and kills most of the opponent's team. The only thing left standing after is an Alakazam which is easily dispatched. I probably shouldn't have used Drain Punch at the end though. In hindsight, I should have Copycatted his Psyshock to guarantee breaking a possible Sash. But I'm still getting used to using such a strange pokemon, so that was my bad.

    Basically, in this replay, none of that would've been possible had I used Focus Sash Riolu because there was Stealth Rock up and there's no way he would've even survived a Keldeo Surf, much less take only 60%.

    The spread I'm using is 252 HP / 76 Def / 128 SpD / 52 Spe with an Impish nature. Basically I'm using enough to get 169 Spe to outspeed base 65s who invest 8 EVs in Speed (though if this spread goes into the analysis, just take off 8 Speed EVs and put 4 in each defense to avoid speed creep). The rest goes into HP and defenses to give 284 HP and 222 in both defenses (223 if the EVs change to avoid speed creep).
  11. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    I knew it that Focus Sash was bad on Riolu :D It just needs so much support to abuse the sash, in addition to the support it alrdy needs... Lefties may be an option to look into too, as it allows you to work in sand, which is kind of a big deal imo. Iirc from some calcs, Riolu can survive almost any hit from most defensive pokes, and even some from offensive, without the Eviolite.
  12. kill yourself

    kill yourself .|~Fashionista~|.
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    Alright, I'll get rid of the Sash/Taunt mentions, and add Bologo's EV spread. Thanks for the approvals.
  13. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    OK drop Focus Sash, Sunny Day, and Rain Dance into AC, as well as the max Atk / max Spe spread.

    Add Iron Defense, Agility, Toxic, Screech (paired with priority user), and Crunch to OO.

    You mean 169 Speed
    Add Alakazam here, too.

    Add Tornadus-T under Checks & Counter, since Regenerator off-sets SR damage.

    EDIT: Yea, Toxic Orb Gliscor, too!
  14. Bologo

    Bologo Have fun with birds and bees.
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    Poison Heal Gliscor should also be under counters if Hail isn't up (which Riolu would not want) because he only takes a maximum of 12.5% from entry hazards and he heals that amount every turn. If Riolu is going to take on Gliscor, you need to make sure he doesn't have a Toxic Orb on. (ie. a Flying Gem Gliscor)
  15. Camisado

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    The only time I have had Riolu successful was in a FULLY dedicated team.

    I used it extensively (125-150 games) and it does not ladder well. You never know what is going to be able to counter it because everything can carry Protect. I skimmed through the top 100 used pokes in OU and over 40 of them regularly carry a move that counters it.

    I found Copycat/Roar/Substitute/Swagger with Leftovers to be most useful. Play it with things like Charm Wabb and Memento Dugtrio, and set up by abusing stat-downs with trappers. I also used Sandstorm because TTar is great at baiting, but finding a way to support Hail would of been cooler. Not to mention pokes with a x4 resistance to Rock (like Lucario, coincidentally) usually will lose to it.

    Swagger is pretty cool as well. Gives you a 25% chance to set up on like ANYTHING. It's Also cool if you want to run Ditto as a catch-all to sweep after wearing everything else down by giving Ditto Attack boosts. Running Substitute lets you phaze Protect users as well by using Sub on the Protect, and mashing Roar until Protect misses.

    I didn't understand Focus Sash or Evolite when you're probably running Trappers that can Trick/Memento/Charm/Tickle/set up screens(Magnezone) and you actually get the chance to rebound if something like Quick Attack Terrakion or Mach Punch Infernape surprise you. Leftovers also gives you help if you phase in Ninetails/Politoad. 252 HP Riolu can still set up on some things, like tanking a non-invested EQ from Hippowdon.

    It's only playable at the highest levels of play where most of the bullshit that can beat it doesn't show up, and those players are going to be able to play around it. I'd put money on it winning a Smogon Tour or w/e before ever topping a PO/PS ladder single-handedly.

    I would not put an analysis for it in OU. There'd by RMTs' and complaints by good players out the ass if it was worthwhile.
  16. Bologo

    Bologo Have fun with birds and bees.
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    Yes, everything can carry Protect, but most pokemon need their 4 moveslots for other things. On pretty much every moveset that has Protect on it, it's always slashed with something as well. In the metagame statistics thread, you can look at the moveset stats and see what regularly carries Protect on it. It's usually very, very easy to see what's going to carry Protect once you've played enough. I usually just either kill guys with Protect using the other teammates, or Trick a Choice item onto them with something else so even if they Protect, they can't actually do anything.

    Also, you say that 40 of the top 100 pokemon regularly carry a move that counters it, but the opponent can only have 6 pokemon. On top of that, they're most likely not choosing anything outside of the top 50 on their team, so that narrows it down even more.

    I've tried Swagger before on Prankster users. It's a horrible idea because of how easily it can backfire on you. And with Swagger, backfiring isn't just your Riolu getting killed. It can easily be your entire team getting counterswept because of the +2 you just gave them.

    Another way to counter Protect users is to Roar on their Protect and then select Copycat (at least this works on PS, I'm not actually sure if it works ingame). It requires god-like prediction, but it works.

    I can't speak for Focus Sash, but Eviolite gives you a lot more flexibility in your teammates. Yes, it does make Riolu's time limited in Sand and Hail, but even in those, if you have enough hazards, he still does a lot of uninterrupted damage. For teammates, you really just need hazards, something to protect the hazards, and a couple of other guys to try and take out Protect/Priority users while they can also do their own thing. Maybe it's just me, but I absolutely hate running fully dedicated teams just to support one pokemon. If the main pokemon dies, the rest of the team should still be able to win on its own. I haven't tried the Leftovers set though, so who knows, maybe it can actually take hits better than I'm giving it credit for.

    There actually was a few complaints about it by good players in the BW2 Metagame thread (and I think that discussion is what sparked this analysis thread). But just because something isn't widely recognized or complained about, it doesn't mean it's not good. It just means it's not recognized yet.
  17. Joim

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    I've tested this, it needs some team support but it gives you wins. I won 60% of the matches I played (around 12 of 20 if I recall correctly). Just with Deoxys-d and Tentacruel you lay all the entry hazards, toxic spikes are highly recommended.

    The rest of the team needs to cover both magic bouncers (Scizor with u-turn for instance) and Tornadus-t (Jolteon, Thundurus-T, even Ferrothorn).

    I'd list Drain Punch over Hi Jump Kick since Riolu must just survive to start the copycat chain. It's surprising the hits he may tank, I'd list some calcs too, such as bulky Rotom-W Hydro Pump.
  18. Shellderp

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    I've never had too much trouble facing this majestic little shuffler; bar the odd loss, but whenever I used it, I found it to be quite helpful having Espeon as a reserve, to prevent faster prankster users. I also found dual screens helped the eviolite Riolu survive a lot better.
  19. Pocket

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    BKC is not working on this anymore. Anybody want to finish off this analysis instead?
  20. Trinitrotoluene

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